200tdi Turbo diagnosis

[AndrewGJones]

Hi,

Diagnosing why my 200 tdi still seems to be overfueling (black smoke) and making a weird sound on boost; I think I'm getting closer.

vanes pitted on leading edge;
56565
another shot;
56566
hole under screw ring clamp;
56567
again;
56568

ther is about 1.5 mm play in the turbo shaft side to side, no evidence of it hitting the casing though. back and forth it a bit more, maybe 2mm (all guessed) .

My guess is it ingested bits of rubber and I'm looking at a turbo rebuild.

I had hoped it was the dodgy crank breather set up that was filling the air filter with oil, but I've re positioned that after the filter now and it has a new air filter (obviously) but still the same sound and black smoke. It is manageable smoke and isn't at embarrassing levels (a few revs and being easy on the go pedal reduce most of it)

Are these turbos recondition-able?

[manic]

Interested to read replies on this one. Your vanes look only slightly worse than mine last time I looked at them. I remember reading that there should be no end float on the shaft so if you have 2mm I'm guessing rebuild or replacement.

They are serviceable I remember seeing a service kit for sale somewhere. Although to service it you mights need specialist tools. Will see what others suggest, I'm off to wiggle mine for play.

[AndrewGJones]

yeah, I think bolt fixing infront of the vanes looks like a specialist tool jobby to start with.


I think the sound I'm hearing when it spools up is vibrations from the play and the vanes not having a clean edge. considering they would be moving at supersonic speeds on boost, I would think the airflow is getting pretty butchered by the leading edge damage. It would explain it struggling to breath and the over fueling.

I'm just hoping that being it's first Oz summer it hasn't seen any over heating from the rich mix it has been running back in England.

[manic]

If your tracking down smoke it could be a combo of issues. Getting the injectors tested shouldn't cost anything.

[AndrewGJones]

I also found a post saying that the intercooler should be cleaned out every 100K kms, so the list goes on...:)

The annoying bit is that it is supposedly a 'new' turbo fitted only 25000 miles ago. At the same time the service history says reconditioned injectors were fitted, which sound funny as I didn't think the injectors on these could be reconditioned?

[manic]

It's a recent purchase to worth a good check over, clean and tidy up regardless of service history. Best way to get to know it.

The injectors can be rebuilt but yours may have just been cleaned. Seeing as it takes a few minutes to take them off and a few minutes for the diesel shop to test them its worth doing IMO. Clean intercooler worth it also, if it is full of oil, you certainly have turbo issues.

[AndrewGJones]

rebuild thread I found elsewhere;

Jackual's 200TDi turbo rebuild guide - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f48/jackuals-200tdi-turbo-rebuild-guide-92448.html)

vs new turbo

Land Rover Defender 200Tdi Turbocharger / Turbo Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-200Tdi-Turbocharger-Turbo-Kit-/250785278064?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3ADefender&hash=item3a63f7a870&_uhb=1#ht_1599wt_1271)

if I can get it done in the 6 hours the bloke in the first thread did, I'm still not ahead because I need a new impeller as well :(

something like this;

Turbocharger Rebuild parts spares - Aftermarket Garrett GT25 Compressor Wheel (http://www.turborebuild.co.uk/?p=product&key=1205146629)

it may just pay to get a whole new one. As reading else where there are other things (cracked casings etc) to look out for.

The other thing that comes to mind is when I get the EGT gauge, I may as well pull the turbo off completely and assess it properly then. I've got a few weeks up my sleave before I no longer have my work ute to get around in, so may as well pull the radiator and intercooler, do the timing belt etc

still deciding if this is fun or not...

[AndrewGJones]

The sums look something like this;

rebuild kit $300
compressor blade $160
my time -priceless!
balancing $100 (I'm in perth, could be twice that!)
possibly finding it has other problems from the vibrations (bearing housing worn, etc, cracks near waste gate (apprantly something to look for, and I haven't even seen the exhaust side yet)

could end up being worth just dropping the money and getting the new one.

won't know i guess until I pull it all apart.

[rick130]

You can get a new Garrett cartridge off the bay, or obtain a new TD04 MHI turbo that is a lot more efficient for not much more.
I bought a new Td04 cartridge for the neighbours Trytoo 18 months ago, (roughly $400)
It was a straight plug and play scenario into the old housings.

I'll see if I can find the correct TD04 model # for the Tdi or JC may have the numbers floating around.

[manic]

rebuild thread I found elsewhere;

still deciding if this is fun or not...

Endless fun :D

If your turbo is truly shagged and in two weeks it becomes your daily drive then I would be tempted to order a new one in too. Whilst you wait for delivery you can do the timing belt, clean up the IC, have a good hunt around, service her up. To pay someone else to do all that work would probably be as much as a new turbo!? When the turbo arrives just swap it on and away you go. Much less stress.

[AndrewGJones]

thanks Rick.


I was able to get the intercooler out without removing anything but the top bracket;
56574

I could get my arm down through the cutout to undo the bottomscrew ring clamp.
56575
Very dirty, alot of blocked holes and black inside
56576
Couple of goes with degreaser, then a litre of diesel
56577
while it was soaking gave it a go with compressed air, straightened out the fins a bit, and gave it a bath
56578

Emptied out the diesel and used laundry soap to flush the inside a few times,
ran the hose through it for a few minutes to get out any residue soap, it's now drying in the sun.

Now to investigate the crank case 'cyclonic breather', i think that is actually what is letting all the oil through to the air intake. Do they wear out (the cyclonic breather)?

[AndrewGJones]

Resident english land rover engineer "Sparky" inspecting the work...

56579

I keep one captive for such occasions.

[manic]

thanks Rick.
Do they wear out (the cyclonic breather)?

Nope , they have a gauze that gets blocked. Flush it through both ways with some spirits or something. They aren't that great at separating by design, the allisport replacement claims to be better.

[rick130]

I was out on the price of that TD04 cartridge, it was only $315 + $40 freight but they didn't do any T250 Garrett ones at the time.

I still can't fid the exact model TD04 MTQ use, but it bolts straight up to the 200Tdi manifold.
You'd need to fabricate a new dump though or buy one from them.
They usually charge around $250 for their cast dumps, but you know it'll bolt straight up.

[AndrewGJones]

thanks Rick, I'll follow that up, if I can get something better for the same or less money, why wouldn't I?

edit; I've sent an email to their Perth branch to see what they can come up with.

[rick130]

BTW that cartridge I've been talking of came from Asia, it wasn't locally sourced.

[AndrewGJones]

I don't know enough about the one I have to know what will fit or not.

[AndrewGJones]

TURBO KIT - Upgrades - Triumph Rover Spares South Australia (http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/page.asp?parentid=3&productid=684)

advertised as a td04 upgrade

i've sent an inquiry.

do these numbers ring a bell Rick?

56612

[rick130]

Methinks that was the photo I was looking for :D

One of the blokes from MTQ let slip that they just pulled them out of the box and installed them, no changing compressor or turbine wheels. ;)

[AndrewGJones]

has the same look as the one I have now, mostly. I wonder if that is where they got the 200tdi turbo setup -a range rover!

Landrover Turbocharger Sales - Exchange Turbo Charger - turboactive.com (http://www.turboactive.com/ProductPage.aspx?ApplicationID=943&TurboID=906&FromSearchPage=No)

[AndrewGJones]

This may be the one form Asia you were thinking of, price is right and it says range rover 2.5 in the description.

the 200tdi was basically a remodel of the LR 2.5 diesel turbo so i assume the turbo setup came across as well.

edit, this one is spec'ed as being of the range rover BMW engine, more research to go yet.


Turbo turbocharger Chra Cartridge Land Rover Range Rover 2 5 TDI 1994 2003 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbo-Turbocharger-CHRA-Cartridge-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-2-5-TDI-1994-2003-/321047464123?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4abfeb88bb)

[AndrewGJones]

sweet video on how to install.

How to Rebuild a Turbo / Easy Turbocharger Repair with CHRA Cartridge - NEW Balanced Core - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Fo_7AeO9g4I#)!

[AndrewGJones]

or perhaps it has the same cartridge as the 300tdi?

T250 04 Turbo Charger Cartridge Chra Core for Landrover 300TDI | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/T250-04-TURBO-Charger-CARTRIDGE-CHRA-CORE-for-LANDROVER-300TDI-/221142120626?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337d18f8b2&vxp=mtr)

[rick130]

or perhaps it has the same cartridge as the 300tdi?

T250 04 Turbo Charger Cartridge Chra Core for Landrover 300TDI | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/T250-04-TURBO-Charger-CARTRIDGE-CHRA-CORE-for-LANDROVER-300TDI-/221142120626?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337d18f8b2&vxp=mtr)

That's cheap for a cartridge, but I'm not sure if the T250-04 will go into your housings ?

The MHI TD04 is a water cooled turbo and is more efficient than either of the Garretts and will bolt up to the 200Tdi Disco manifold, but not sure about your high mount Defender one.

[AndrewGJones]

yeah more searching and I think I'm barking up the wrong tree,

i think I should be looking for a garrett TBO242, LR part number ETC8751

I've sent some questions off to various suppliers and I'm going to pull the turbo off and see if there is any info there.

the problem I have is I don't know the exact year of the engine and whether the replacement turbo (it's not the original on there) is actually the same type as originally on defender 200tdi. that and it came from england (yes I know they all did, but this had all it's modifications over there) and from what I can tell there where some early 200tdi variants floating around.

Anyway, we will see. so far the cartridge method is the way to go, I haven't seen any over $400 for anything in that size, beats the stuffing out of wasting time recon'ing and then still having to send it off for balancing.


turbo-product (http://www.turbo-product.com/Landrover/)

[AndrewGJones]

Replacement turbo for Land Rover, Defender - BTN Turbo, the turbocharger people (http://www.btnturbo.com/parts/model/landrover/defender.aspx)

i do know the engine is an 11L, which seems to come up with the ETC8751 as the part number, but that doesn't tell me if these other cartridges will fit.
Some places say the turbo is a Garrett TB-02 the Workshop manual say Garrett T25?

[AndrewGJones]

Turbocharger - 465171-0002, ETC8751 Land-Rover Defender 2.5 TDI (http://en.turbolader.net/Turbocharger-Catalogue/8900-1546/ETC8751/465171-0002.aspx)

looks just like this one, but trying to work out what cartridge fits , not so easy.

[BPalin]

Would this also fit a 300tdi? Because the 96 defender I recently purchased has one.

[AndrewGJones]

The one a few post back with the link to ebay is probably the one for you, but make sure you investigate yourself, I'm being extra careful as I know it's not the original turbo on mine and also being a tight ass trying to find alternatives! (scottish blood...)

T250 04 Turbo Charger Cartridge Chra Core for Landrover 300TDI | eBay

[AndrewGJones]

I'm just collecting some links here, don't mind me :)

Turbocharger,Turbo repair kit ,Turbo Spare Parts (http://www.drturbocharger.com/cartridge+and+chra+443854-0033+for+land+rover+tubocharger+tbo242+465171-0001+etc8751_p_5952.htm)



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Turbocharger-CHRA-465171-1-465175-1-LandRover-Discovery-Defender-2-5-90-110-ps-/350695369928?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item51a712acc8

flippin' awesome post;
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1159840-post7.html

[AndrewGJones]

would love one of these though...

AlliSport Land Rover Defender 200 Tdi VNT Turbo Direct Replacement Turbocharger | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AlliSport-Land-Rover-Defender-200-Tdi-VNT-Turbo-Direct-Replacement-Turbocharger-/251189661048?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a7c120d78)

[rick130]

would love one of these though...

AlliSport Land Rover Defender 200 Tdi VNT Turbo Direct Replacement Turbocharger | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AlliSport-Land-Rover-Defender-200-Tdi-VNT-Turbo-Direct-Replacement-Turbocharger-/251189661048?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a7c120d78)

BAS/Bell Auto Services do a VNT kit too now, put together by Turbo Technics. 300 TDI Defender and Discovert Hybrid VGT VNT turbo | Diesel performance tuning and economy remap chip tuning for Landrover Defender Discovery TD5 Puma TDV6 TDV8 (http://bellautoservices.co.uk/products/vnt-vgt-turbo/300-tdi-vnt-vgt-turbo/)

[AndrewGJones]

cheers Rick,

MTQ in perth are chasing up the options for me, I have found the cartridge in this link, but I would like the local backup;

Turbocharger,Turbo repair kit ,Turbo Spare Parts (http://www.drturbocharger.com/cartridge+and+chra+443854-0033+for+land+rover+tubocharger+tbo242+465171-0002+465171-5002s+etc8751_p_5953.htm)

Product Name:CARTRIDGE AND CHRA 443854-0033 FOR Land rover TUBOCHARGER TBO242 465171-0002 465171-5002S ETC8751
Part No.:443854-0033

Turbo Model:GARRETT TURBOCHARGERS

Mark:LANDROVER
Application:465171-0002 465171-5002S ETC8751

I think that I should stay standard as over boosting is just going to increase the chances of something else failing. Play it safe I think (also, don't have the money for anything else!)

[AndrewGJones]

Well, MTQ got back to me a couple of days ago and the cartridge will cost me $900+ plus freight!

How does "no thanks" sound?!

Back to the rebuild option I think, but it doesn't solve the pitted compressor though. having said that, the balancing doesn't look like it should cost that much, and a few youtube rebuild vids later, it doesn't look too involved to rebuild anyway. i can get the compressor wheel for around a green bill, but of course that doesn't mean the bearing casing isn't worn out.

Would love to drop a cartridge in damn it!

It is annoying to think that there are probably equivalent cartridges that would work, but it's obviously not something that has much demand, hence no market for anyone to bother finding out.

Bring on the 4JB1T/4JH1T I say! turbos for those are going for $380 complete!

[roverrescue]

Now to investigate the crank case 'cyclonic breather', i think that is actually what is letting all the oil through to the air intake. Do they wear out (the cyclonic breather)?

I would fear that if your making oil into the intake in substantial quantities the problem will lie deeper than a chunk of plastic hanging off the side of the rocker cover.

Valve stem seals at best - them piston ring things at worst

S

[rick130]

Now to investigate the crank case 'cyclonic breather', i think that is actually what is letting all the oil through to the air intake. Do they wear out (the cyclonic breather)?

I would fear that if your making oil into the intake in substantial quantities the problem will lie deeper than a chunk of plastic hanging off the side of the rocker cover.

Valve stem seals at best - them piston ring things at worst

S


Stem seals are easy to replace in situ, all you need is a valve spring compressor that clamps around the spring, there's no need to add air to the cylinder as long as you have the piston at TDC for the respective pot you're working on.

I had three stem seals floating for god knows how long, as soon as I replaced all the seals there was no more oil consumption (prior to that I'd use around 400-500ml or maybe a touch more /10,000km.

A leakdown test will reveal whether it's rings or not.

[onyamatey]

Without knowing the full history of this engine, I'd be looking at some other things as well.

As for testing injectors...... if they cause smoke on takeoff due to incorrect spray pattern or breakoff pressure they would generally give the same fault right through the rev/torque range.

Sure the photos of your turbo show contamination/debris damage to the compressor wheel, the tips of the compressor wheel fins show signs of abrasive wear (most likely dusted from the hole in your intake hose). But you say it chugs black smoke on takeoff ?

On takeoff conditions you generally don't have a great deal of boost pressure anyway until the 'lag' is overcome by the gradual build up of the fuel burn process. So a completely shagged turbo shouldn't be a major contributing factor to excess black smoke on takeoff, an inefficient turbo is more likely to give you grief once you are moving along and your right foot is buried on the 'go' pedal but there is an insufficient volume of air in each cylinder to correctly combust with the amount of fuel metered by the pump.
Just about every turbocharged injector pump will have some sort of 'boost control' to limit the amount of fuel delivery until the available boost pressure is able to overcome spring pressure behind a diaphragm and then it will progressively allow more fuel delivery to match the volumetric capacity of air in each cylinder to allow for a clean fuel burn.
It's possible someone has played with your pump and screwed the boost control plunger in to make it deliver more fuel without the presence of boost pressure.
Even on an electronic engine boost control exists in the way of an electronic sensor that changes resistance depending on the boost pressure it's reading. The ecm reads the resistance of this sensor and converts it to a real figure (eg: 10psi), this can be tampered with too by changing the resistance of the sensor so even at idle the ecm will think there is boost there and as soon as you press the go pedal it will deliver more fuel than it should, and the result is a cloud of black smoke until the actual boost pressure rises enough to correctly combust with the amount of fuel being delivered.

[AndrewGJones]

thanks onyamatey,

I've previously reset the boost cam back to the factory setting, (there was about 76/7 wear marks on it, so plenty of playing has been done in there!)

On take off it's not really blowing smoke, usually 3rd gear at low revs does it. I can generally get it to a minimum by keeping the revs up or being gentle on the throttle.

It isn't a lot a black smoke, just enough for me to go looking.

I've got the turbo off now.

one off the studs came with it, going to have to search on how to get that back into the manifold,

56822

definitely the 465171-0002

56823

another picture of the stud,

56824

close up of the compressor
56825

I've found a firm in the UK (http://www.turborebuild.co.uk) that can supply the CHRA For 215 pounds plus 35 pounds freight, just paying for it now and hopefully get the 110 back on the road in the next couple of weeks. Took a while to find someone who will reply to emails actually!

While the turbo is off I'll order up a EGT gauge and fit that too.

[AndrewGJones]

been meaning to update this thread for a while.

So, i got it all back together, and was happy. Recently changed the timing belt and mechanic (Dave dover) found it was a notch detuned. Was amazed how much fun it was to drive after, turbo spooling up nicely (always was wondering why it was so quiet, apart form the vibration on boost- now I know)

But it's not a happy ending. the same noise/vibration is back!

to cut to the chase, I know what I did 'wrong'; ignored the advice to replace the feed and return oil lines to the turbo that came on the instructions. thought 'she'll be right', but really should have flushed and changed the oil at least to have that attitude.

i now have to be careful not to push the go pedal to fast to avoid the vibration.

I'm guessing that being so high up on the engine (actually the highest point), they weren't joking that new oil lines were needed.

found something wierd when I did finally flush and pull of the sump to really clean out the old oil; the oil pump pickup cover (mesh grill) actually hits the bottom of the sump! i thought this was really weird considering it effectively halves the area of the pickup grill.

Is it possible someone has put the wrong grill in there? (Does the 300tdi or the old 2.5TD have interchangeable, yet slightly deeper pickup grills?) Seem like a real corker of an oversight to have it designed that way...

Andy