Disco vs. Defender? [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

NT5224

11th February 2013, 06:24 PM

Ladies and Gents

My first post to the general Land Rover forum. I'm a Puma HCPU owner and over the years have driven lots of Series Land Rovers and Defenders around the world, often in challenging off road conditions. However I've never driven a Discovery

Now I know its an Apples and Pears comparison but I'm interested to know how people would compare the offroad performance of the Puma Defender and the comparable Discovery's -D3/D4's. I've read lots of good things about the latter. Land Rover still describe the Defender as its 'toughest' product (but is that just marketing spin for 'least refined'?)

So hypothetical comparison here - A stock Discovery 3/4 and stock Puma 110 on hard trails and/or bush touring. Where does each vehicle score points over the other? Does the Defender still hold the crown as the top offroader in the Land Rover fleet?

Particularly interested to hear from those who own both models

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Alan

isuzurover

11th February 2013, 06:32 PM

This was just recently discussed at length in the disco section.

In short:

Defender advantages:
Approach, departure and rampover angles
Harder to damage body offroad
Fewer vulnerable drivetrain bits offroad (e.g. solid axles and no eas compressor)
Better tyres and wheel size for offroad

D3/D4/RRS Advantages:
Better traction control
Optional rear e-diff
Air suspension
Better engine (TDV6/V8)

Put a bad driver in both vehicles, then the Disco will probably go further. Put a good driver in both, then the defender will probably win (especially due to tyres).

By the time you buy a decent set of offroad tyres for the Disco you could have bought F+R lockers or LSDs (AND air suspension) for the defender, which will make it outperform the disco offroad in every aspect (except maybe in some instances when you need lots of power or low down torque).

rick130

11th February 2013, 06:45 PM

Alan, if you're game, have a read of this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/168320-thinking-trading-discovery-3-new-defender.html ;)

Marty110

11th February 2013, 07:11 PM

This was just recently done to discussed at length in the disco section.

In short:

Defender advantages:
Approach, departure and rampover angles
Harder to damage body offroad
Fewer vulnerable drivetrain bits offroad (e.g. solid axles and no eas compressor)
Better tyres and wheel size for offroad

D3/D4/RRS Advantages:
Better traction control
Optional rear e-diff
Air suspension
Better engine (TDV6/V8)

Put a bad driver in both vehicles, then the Disco will probably go further. Put a good driver in both, then the defender will probably win (especially due to tyres).

By the time you buy a decent set of offroad tyres for the Disco you could have bought F+R lockers or LSDs (AND air suspension) for the defender, which will make it outperform the disco offroad in every aspect (except maybe in some instances when you need lots of power or low down torque).

what he says x2. You can buy a lot of enhancements for the Defender for the price difference, including more comfortable seats and suspension.

isuzurover

11th February 2013, 07:28 PM

what he says x2. You can buy a lot of enhancements for the Defender for the price difference, including more comfortable seats and suspension.

I was just talking about the price of buying a decent set of tyres and wheels for the Disco. (of course the ~$40k+++ difference in purchase price means a lot of mods are free on the defender).

It will cost you ~$3k to buy a decent set of offroad wheels and tyres for the disco/RRS.

For that price you can easily have 2 Ashcroft or ARB lockers fitted to a defender (or 2x geared LSDs and probably enough spare money for aftermarket air suspension).

I am sure that even twin LSDs + ETC would outperform a Disco with ETC + e-diff.

Michael2

11th February 2013, 08:17 PM

You will be powering along in your Disco with a broad smile on your face, amazed at how much power you have on tap, and how absorbent the suspension is.

Next you will scrape a little root poking into the edge of the rut, something that would not have been noticed in a Defender, but which rips open the sidewall of your 18" tyre.

Then you will have to empty your cargo onto the track, (hope it's not steep, wet or prickly) so that you can access the bolt to lower your spare tyre. Then to jack up the vehicle while the air suspension tries to counter your adjustments.

Now to reload the car, trying to keep as much dirt out. Then re-mount the punctured tyre underneath and make it to camp after dark (or miss out on that waterfall diversion...).

Then get home and pay for a tyre, you could have got two spares for the Defender for that price.

At what stage along this story, would you be wishing you were in your Defender?

(based on a true story)

roverrescue

11th February 2013, 09:12 PM

something not mentioned and in my opinion more important than suspension ride or 18in tyres...
Vehicle mass and a relative of that GVM

I have plenty of places where lardy 4x4 are bogged while 2t utes etc just roll around in candy land. For some reason my 2t 130 with 500kg of junk copes okay in the sticky compared to a bare bones no one in it new wagon that weighs 2.8 plus. ? ? ? ?

I guess you cant have leather seats and forty two speakers for nothing though.

And besides, chicks dig fenders. Enough said.

S

2stroke

11th February 2013, 09:29 PM

Carrying capacity is a very important thing, for sure, something I've always appreciated about my 130. A Defender seems to carry a load offroad better than anything else I've ever owned. I guess maybe a Disco 1 might give a Defender a run for it's money if both were unladen. Never owned a Disco 1 but did have a 2 door Rangie for a time and apart from small tyres and body damage it went well offroad.

rick130

11th February 2013, 09:46 PM

[snip]

And besides, chicks dig fenders. Enough said.

S

And their drivers :D

scarry

11th February 2013, 09:58 PM

At what stage along this story, would you be wishing you were in your Defender?

(based on a true story)

But on the way home,some drunk ran a red light at high speed, into the deefer.

Now i would be wishing i was in the Disco amongst an airbag or two.......:p

Tote

11th February 2013, 10:25 PM

Out of the box a Defender will always be a better performer off road. Disco 3 needs all terrain tyres at a minimum. Spend a few dollars on both vehicles and the D3 would only lose out where weight is a disadvantage.
Different vehicles for different tastes though and while the Defender may win in the outright 4wd situation the D3 driver will be in an environment that is quiet, comfortable and doesn't leak ;)
Of course there is also the difference in purchase price that makes a difference, Puma +10K Difflocks, tyres, modest lift = high 50 thousands
D4 + 10K Tyres, Suspension mods, tyre carrier = High 90 thousands.
We have a D3 and a Wrangler. There is very little difference in outright capability but the D3 is a much nicer vehicle for a long trip at a $40K premium from new. I like driving them both equally as sometimes its nice to drive a vehicle that is light and nimble for a change.

Regards,
Tote

AnD3rew

11th February 2013, 10:42 PM

With the exception of some angles the Disco out of the box will outperform the Defender out of the box off road, the terrain response in the disco is that good.

However it is definitely true that in the offroad stakes for a lot less than the price difference you can make the Deefer the better offroad performer, however there is not enough money in the world to make the Deefer as comfortable or safe as the Disco on road.

If money isn't the issue then if you want a bush basher then the Deefer with mods will go farther than the Disco, if you want a comfortable capable tourer with serious offroad ability then the disco is your car.

TerryO

11th February 2013, 11:12 PM

As Rick commented have a read of the attached thread, lots of good points either way;

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/168320-thinking-trading-discovery-3-new-defender.html

Having said that what you will find is the Fender boys got their backsides kicked by the D3/4 mob who made lots of excellent points why the D3/4 is a much better vehicle. ...:)

Mind you it was a bit unfair because we stayed on point while half of them starting arguing with each other about whether a County was better than a TD5 or was it better to own the ever reliable but gutless TDI 200. I think most of them agreed their earlier ones were better than the unreliable pretend Puma's. ..:p

One would have to think maybe all that vibrating from their rattly old leaky dungers has loosened their grey matter which in turn caused them to lose focus. ...Sad Really! ...:angel:

Seriously for a moment, the real test is go drive a D3 or 4 yourself and see what you think best serves your needs. Once you have driven a late model Disco chances are you won't want to stay in a Fender.

cheers,
Terry

goingbush

11th February 2013, 11:12 PM

If I wanted something with less noise, more comfort, Nice trim, A/C & ergonomics. dosent leak dust or water (or oil for that matter) , great handling, 5 star safety rating , and quality Audio system i'd buy a ......

....CAR !!

I dont need any of those features in my Defender (well except for a great A/C ;) )

isuzurover

11th February 2013, 11:28 PM

But on the way home,some drunk ran a red light at high speed, into the deefer.

Now i would be wishing i was in the Disco amongst an airbag or two.......:p

Real world crash data in the UK showed that a Defender and a Disco (D2 at the time) were just as safe as each other.

inside

11th February 2013, 11:55 PM

Having said that what you will find is the Fender boys got their backsides kicked by the D3/4 mob who made lots of excellent points why the D3/4 is a much better vehicle. ...:)
I know your post is tongue in cheek but for me it's not about getting "backsides kicked". You see Defender owners aren't interested in proclaiming the greatness of their vehicles, our time is spent planning modifications, organising trips, refining camping gear, improving on our vehicles weaknesses and with a lot of time spent chatting to other Defender owners about what works for them. It's why you'll see Defender owners organising BBQs, camping trips or just general "Come around and we'll bang on about Landys" get togethers.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to research how I'm going to stuff 250L of fuel and 120L of water in my Defender while ensuring my vehicle is in top mechanical condition because, you know, there's places to see and adventures to be had.

Michael2

11th February 2013, 11:58 PM

Real world crash data in the UK showed that a Defender and a Disco (D2 at the time) were just as safe as each other.

Beat me to it - the Defender is one of the most survivable cars to be in. The weak point is side impact, so I'd recommend rock sliders or steel steps. In real world situations when high cars are struck on the side by a low car, they tend to tip over. This is a good thing, it's pretty much a non lethal maneuvre that absorbs heaps of energy to effect. It also places a chassis & drive train between the occupant and the intruding vehicle.

TimNZ

12th February 2013, 12:22 AM

<Snip> I think most of them agreed their earlier ones were better than the unreliable pretend Puma's. </Snip>

?? I take it by "pretend Pumas" you mean older Defenders with Puma Bonnets?

manic

12th February 2013, 12:36 AM

Don't listen to Terry O, he probably uses Velcro instead of shoe laces.

Defender still king of the ruff and tough stuff. D4 is a better car but then so is a Toyota camry. D1 looked great, D2 was complementary, then the D3 came out looking like a van, each generation getting more and more booooring. The more popular a car is, the more boring it becomes, it's proven equation. If you had to wave at every disco you'd get tennis elbow! :wasntme:

If you want luxury and off road performance, get the new range rover!

superquag

12th February 2013, 01:16 AM

".... If you want luxury and off road performance, get the new range rover!..."

Or get the OLD one... - LSE if you want the ultimate ride - spend some of that saved money on (re) building it properly, with a half-decent engine and all the fruity bits.

Should have lot$ left over to re-paint it, gold-plate the badges and lettering... even Big Wheels & Tyres.

Just a Silly Thought... :eek:

mools

12th February 2013, 03:36 AM

I never quite understood the whole D3 / D4 concept. Once the range rover sport came out it seemed redundant, poor mans range rover.

Dougal

12th February 2013, 07:17 AM

I never quite understood the whole D3 / D4 concept. Once the range rover sport came out it seemed redundant, poor mans range rover.

Quite simple really. When you need more load space or 7 seats you get a disco.

This debate is quite interesting for me. The wife would let me buy a defender for a work wagon complete with all the noise. But she hates the look of the disco 3/4.

roverrescue

12th February 2013, 08:19 AM

Jeff

12th February 2013, 08:32 AM

In our town there are no traffic lights but plenty of drink drivers - am I safer in such a town or less safe?

S

Remember 70% of crashes are sober drivers, yet they point the finger at drunks.

Jeff

:rocket:

LoveB

12th February 2013, 08:55 AM

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 08:55 AM

Beat me to it - the Defender is one of the most survivable cars to be in. The weak point is side impact, so I'd recommend rock sliders or steel steps. In real world situations when high cars are struck on the side by a low car, they tend to tip over. This is a good thing, it's pretty much a non lethal maneuvre that absorbs heaps of energy to effect. It also places a chassis & drive train between the occupant and the intruding vehicle.

So why does a D2 have a 3 star ANCAP and a Defender is yet to be tested? (Suggesting it wont even get 1 star). I know its been discussed before and people may disagree with me but safety is important for me because of my family. Particularly because my missus is a paramedic and again particularly because we have a 3 month old son. I contemplated getting back into a defender until she said "how much would you be willing to spend to get a safe vehicle for your son?"

Now if they independantly crash tested a defender and gave it a rating I'd be really surprised if it got greater than 1 star. So for me it'd be the D3/4 if I was updating. Low speed bingles aside, a D3/4 is way safer in any sort of crash than a Deefer and that would swing me towards the D3/4 regardless if the Deefer is slightly better off road.

But each to their own (preparing for the onslaught from deefer owners suggesting I'm a nong......)

Dougal

12th February 2013, 09:01 AM

So why does a D2 have a 3 star ANCAP and a Defender is yet to be tested? (Suggesting it wont even get 1 star). I know its been discussed before and people may disagree with me but safety is important for me because of my family. Particularly because my missus is a paramedic and again particularly because we have a 3 month old son. I contemplated getting back into a defender until she said "how much would you be willing to spend to get a safe vehicle for your son?"

Now if they independantly crash tested a defender and gave it a rating I'd be really surprised if it got greater than 1 star. So for me it'd be the D3/4 if I was updating. Low speed bingles aside, a D3/4 is way safer in any sort of crash than a Deefer and that would swing me towards the D3/4 regardless if the Deefer is slightly better off road.

But each to their own (preparing for the onslaught from deefer owners suggesting I'm a nong......)

It all depends which tests you put the most faith in.
Standard lab tests which put vehicles into walls/spin into poles or real world test data which shows these vehicles (RRC, disco1, defender etc) to be very safe for their occupants.

What is your main risk?

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 09:08 AM

It all depends which tests you put the most faith in.
Standard lab tests which put vehicles into walls/spin into poles or real world test data which shows these vehicles (RRC, disco1, defender etc) to be very safe for their occupants.

What is your main risk?

Other drivers. Particularly drunk ones. And wildlife.

isuzutoo-eh

12th February 2013, 09:44 AM

Other drivers. Particularly drunk ones. And wildlife.

So...for wildlife, wouldn't something with a hefty steel bull bar and a strong chassis be superior to something that'll crush by design? You'd be able to keep driving after the impact instead of being stuck in the middle of nowhere with a mangled plastic car.

You could buy a new Defender and a Safety Devices roll cage for a lot less than a new D4 too :)

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 09:58 AM

So...for wildlife, wouldn't something with a hefty steel bull bar and a strong chassis be superior to something that'll crush by design? You'd be able to keep driving after the impact instead of being stuck in the middle of nowhere with a mangled plastic car.

You could buy a new Defender and a Safety Devices roll cage for a lot less than a new D4 too :)

Crush by design transfers the inertia of a crash into the vehicle, not the occupants. A steel roll cage would be great under 30kph. I'd rather have a vehicle stuck in the middle of nowhere than be cut in half by my seatbelt, have my legs crushed in an impact or give my occupants head injuries from no side impact airbags. That's what it comes down to for me. I have a sat phone and RACV platinum and always carry plenty of water when I'm touring. So if I'm stuck for a while that's fine. That's why we pay insurance isn't it?

Often wildlife, particularly wombats, deer and large roos round here, has the potential to crash you into things. My missus has been to way to many crashes where people have died due to poor car safety for us to have not to have a 'plastic' vehicle designed to protect its occupants.

I still get to ride a motorcycle though - how safe is that? Not! :D

As I said though, each to their own. If it was just 'offroadability' and I was single, it'd be a defender every time.:)

PAT303

12th February 2013, 10:13 AM

I don't have a D3-4 but did have an L322 RR,the modern vehicles are just that modern,the defender is old school.The L322 D3-4 are better than the defender in every way but the defender is the easiest vehicle to modify to suit your needs,as far as offroad ability there's nothing in it,the TC is both vehciles is excellent and both can carry lots of gear,the L322 is effortless on road,the Td6 is the best wagon ever sold in Oz regardless of make.I've done 54,000k's in my TDCi Defender,450,000k's in my Tdi and 165,000k's in the Td6 and all three did the job asked,the L322 just did it quicker with more comfort and much better fuel economy.The Defenders best trait is cost and ease of modification to suit your needs,not that they need many mods. Pat

rick130

12th February 2013, 10:17 AM

[snip]

Often wildlife, particularly wombats, deer and large roos round here, has the potential to crash you into things. My missus has been to way to many crashes where people have died due to poor car safety for us to have not to have a 'plastic' vehicle designed to protect its occupants.

[snip]:)

I've had more hits than Elvis in the Deefer, the secret to surviving an animal impact is not to swerve (unless it's large cattle, horses, camels, then pray and I don't believe in a deity as such)

Plenty of big roos and Wallaroos too where a steel bullbar is your friend. ;)

460cixy

12th February 2013, 10:23 AM

I have planted so many roos in the last 12 months its not funny the last time I hit 3 in the space of about a kilometre only damage so far was a bent drag link soon to be coverd by steering gaurd

rick130

12th February 2013, 10:34 AM

At the end of the day a 110/130 is a work/commercial biased vehicle, it's built with a massive box section chassis, springs biased towards load carrying and fitted with Light Truck construction tyres. It's built to work.

A Disco is a family wagon with a distinct on road orientation that is very capable off road.

I'm not really sure why this is so hard to grasp ?

Do you want to carry loads over tough terrain and not worry too much about a scratch or panel damage yet still do it with roadholding, ride and handling two notches above the direct opposition ?

Buy a Defender.

Or do you want to cover long distances in absolute comfort over indifferent roads with the family safely ensconced within ?

Buy a Disco.

Ultimately it appears the Disco boys keep needing to justify their purchase with "it's as good/better than a Defender" whereas the 90/110/130 crowd don't seem to need to justify anything.

Says it all really :D

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 10:44 AM

Ultimately it appears the Disco boys keep needing to justify their purchase with "it's as good/better than a Defender" whereas the 90/110/130 crowd don't seem to need to justify anything.

Says it all really :D

Or could it be that to own a leaky, rattly, unsafe four wheel drive you have to be oblivious to alternatives? :wasntme:

AndrewGJones

12th February 2013, 10:58 AM

Road safety comes down to the driver IMO.

It doesn't matter what you drive if you do not concentrate on the task at hand.

for example, do you trust the traffic lights to control traffic, or do you trust your eyes? e.g. I was taught young to always check traffic was stopping regardless of having the green light.

I never tail gate, I never speed, I am forever taking notice of drivers on cross roads, I'm continually checking my mirrors, and always assuming that everyone else is an idiot driver (I assume they will run that orange light, will change lanes without indicating, will cut me off, will not slow down when approaching round-a-bouts, will be on the phone, will have the stereo up full bore, will swerve at the slightest provocation, will tailgate and the safest thing is to get out of their way...will not merge correctly, will speed, be drunk or on drugs, etc etc)

to me what I am driving, crumple zones or not, is the least of the things keeping me safe.

Being high up with 360 degree vision means I can do the things that do keep me safe and a 110 does that better than most.

rick130

12th February 2013, 11:03 AM

Crush by design transfers the inertia of a crash into the vehicle, not the occupants. A steel roll cage would be great under 30kph.

[snip]

I'll be sure to tell every race sanctioning organisation in the world and their safety committees that they have it all wrong with the substantial roll cages/safety cells they all mandate ;)

Yes, they all use crushable structures too, you need something to absorb the massive energy inherent in a large hit (other than the human body) but a roll cage works extremely well at higher speeds/impact energies too, and if designed properly, particularly with multiple hits.

I could always wear my Simpson Shark helmet https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/728.jpg in the Deefer for better head protection than any side airbag will give :angel:

(In all seriousness I'd hate to have a side hit in the Defender, the upper seat belt bolt on the B pillar will centre pop the drivers temple IMO)

rick130

12th February 2013, 11:09 AM

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 11:23 AM

I'll be sure to tell every race sanctioning organisation in the world and their safety committees that they have it all wrong with the substantial roll cages/safety cells they all mandate ;)

Yes, they all use crushable structures too, you need something to absorb the massive energy inherent in a large hit (other than the human body) but a roll cage works extremely well at higher speeds/impact energies too, and if designed properly, particularly with multiple hits.

I could always wear my Simpson Shark helmet https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/728.jpg in the Deefer for better head protection than any side airbag will give :angel:

(In all seriousness I'd hate to have a side hit in the Defender, the upper seat belt bolt on the B pillar will centre pop the drivers temple IMO)

I'm only assuming here but I would think Defender roll cages would differ substantially from racing car roll cages.;)

isuzurover

12th February 2013, 12:27 PM

There are no new discos where we live but when a tourists rolls thru town the wife is always the first to point and say "ugly disco!" which they totally are!
In our town there are no traffic lights but plenty of drink drivers - am I safer in such a town or less safe?

It really is a silly discussion - those that know know and those that want a commo or falcon on big wheels so they can cruise around the city in comfort buy a discovery

Imagine how good a discovery would be if it wasnt so fat???

S

Agree completely. My wife also thinks they look hideous and I have to agree...

Then D1 looks good IMHO, the D2 not too bad. From then on they got far and fugly. (conversely I think the current RRS is probably the nicest looking rangie ever made).

Aside from the looks, I still can't believe they are a tonne heavier than my 110!

I'm only assuming here but I would think Defender roll cages would differ substantially from racing car roll cages.;)

I think you completely missed Rick's point...

At the end of the day a 110/130 is a work/commercial biased vehicle, it's built with a massive box section chassis, springs biased towards load carrying and fitted with Light Truck construction tyres. It's built to work.

A Disco is a family wagon with a distinct on road orientation that is very capable off road.

I'm not really sure why this is so hard to grasp ?

Do you want to carry loads over tough terrain and not worry too much about a scratch or panel damage yet still do it with roadholding, ride and handling two notches above the direct opposition ?

Buy a Defender.

Or do you want to cover long distances in absolute comfort over indifferent roads with the family safely ensconced within ?

Buy a Disco.

Ultimately it appears the Disco boys keep needing to justify their purchase with "it's as good/better than a Defender" whereas the 90/110/130 crowd don't seem to need to justify anything.

Says it all really :D

Good points.

As for the bolded bits - it is not just "not worry" but it is so much harder to actually dint a defender offroad.

e.g. - I drove out of this without any damage
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/GrantP77/Levuka%20March%202011/4WDingatLevuka052.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/727.jpg

Gordon (gghaggis) is the only person I know who does tracks of similar levels of difficulty in a D3/RRS and from his own accounts on here (and seeing his current and former vehicles driving around the burbs) regular panel beating and tail light replacements are needed.

Jeff

12th February 2013, 01:55 PM

If you are hit by another vehicle while stationary do airbags go off? AKAIK they have a minimum speed and do nothing if you are below that speed.

Jeff

:rocket:

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 02:10 PM

If you are hit by another vehicle while stationary do airbags go off? AKAIK they have a minimum speed and do nothing if you are below that speed.

Jeff

:rocket:

Depends on the vehicle I believe. Some even have dual stage airbags that detect how hard an impact is and then deploy the airbags either fully or partially (new mercedes for example). Older vehicles will have a more simple front-only impact system. Some one who is nerdier than me will know about landies i reckon.:p

roverrescue

12th February 2013, 02:35 PM

Pricey
this: "I still get to ride a motorcycle though - how safe is that? Not!"
just completely makes a farce of your drive a safe vehicle tirade

Work in major trauma centre for a week and I gaurentee you will never ride a donorcycle on a public road again?

-A VN commode can roll three times and the occupants walk away
-A 5star mercedes can hit a tree and the occupants are deader than dead

Its luck of the draw in some respects but even donga vehicles these days are safer than ever - rather than lab tests and star ratings look at real life data (what the fender are safe stats are based from)
Essentially if your gonna cop it you will - the majority of car/4x4 accidents have minimal outcomes

But if you ride then the luck aspect just became a whole lot more significant
Ask any trauma specilist - serious road trauma (not just taking deaths into account but serious injury) these days is almost exclusively in the domain of the cycle accidents?

S

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 02:37 PM

Pricey
this: "I still get to ride a motorcycle though - how safe is that? Not!"
just completely makes a farce of your drive a safe vehicle tirade

Work in major trauma centre for a week and I gaurentee you will never ride a donorcycle on a public road again?

The difference is mate that I don't take my 11 week old son or wife out on the motorbike.

And no need to get nasty. I don't think what I wrote was a tirade. It was just a viewpoint on motor vehicle safety. Everyone's entitled to their viewpoint.

What I was actually saying if you read my posts was that my missus wants the safest vehicle we can buy to protect our family and I agree. She understands that bikes are my life and that I can't give them up. But again, I only risk my own life when I'm out on a bike.

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 02:45 PM

I think you completely missed Rick's point...

I didn't. You just can't read sarcasm all the time.:D

AndrewGJones

12th February 2013, 02:45 PM

wifey is a nurse who works in rehab; have a guess what chance I have of ever riding a motorbike? (and my tastes are NSU and BSA vintage, but I still got no hope of sneaking one home)

She meets guys who wish they had died in the crash; that is literally what they say (if they can still speak).

strangy

12th February 2013, 02:55 PM

So why does a D2 have a 3 star ANCAP and a Defender is yet to be tested? (Suggesting it wont even get 1 star). I know its been discussed before and people may disagree with me but safety is important for me because of my family. Particularly because my missus is a paramedic and again particularly because we have a 3 month old son. I contemplated getting back into a defender until she said "how much would you be willing to spend to get a safe vehicle for your son?"

Now if they independantly crash tested a defender and gave it a rating I'd be really surprised if it got greater than 1 star. So for me it'd be the D3/4 if I was updating. Low speed bingles aside, a D3/4 is way safer in any sort of crash than a Deefer and that would swing me towards the D3/4 regardless if the Deefer is slightly better off road.

But each to their own (preparing for the onslaught from deefer owners suggesting I'm a nong......)

Ancap ratings and 60 gazillion airbags are all well and good certainly has helped but...
Marketing works really well when asking the question about your loved ones.

It's simply a miracle any of us ever made it long enough on this planet to procreate with all those death traps we drive.
If your Missus was serious about her question you wouldn't be looking at a 4wd at all.
You would be evaluating a presidential Limo and hiring body guards,

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 03:01 PM

Ancap ratings and 60 gazillion airbags are all well and good certainly has helped but...
Marketing works really well when asking the question about your loved ones.

It's simply a miracle any of us ever made it long enough on this planet to procreate with all those death traps we drive.
If your Missus was serious about her question you wouldn't be looking at a 4wd at all.
You would be evaluating a presidential Limo and hiring body guards,

So an ANCAP rating is all marketing is it? Thanks for the tip.

And are you for real about that statement on the Limo? What a load of bull dung.

roverrescue

12th February 2013, 03:04 PM

Sorry if I came across as nasty - but I reckon your wife and kids life will change in an instant if you were to have a bike accident ????
Protecting your family has more factors to it than the number of airbags you put around them

Regarding the point on the table:
If you have a look at the statistics being used that were UK based saying that defenders are safe vehicles These were real vehicle accident results over a number of years - this is real data that shows fenders are not as unsafe as they look

Star ratings are based on a few organised crashes into walls and counting the number of airbags - marketing essentially?

Anyways - apologies if I heated up a bit - but after a few years of dealing with busted moto riders who all say "but Ill only hurt myself" whilst they stretch the health service getting put back together and strain their loved ones to breaking point - well you get a little bit over the selfish line?????

Ill leave it at that - Im out of that game now and dont need to burn energy on it

Peace

S

Dougal

12th February 2013, 03:23 PM

If you are hit by another vehicle while stationary do airbags go off? AKAIK they have a minimum speed and do nothing if you are below that speed.

Jeff

:rocket:

The main airbag sensor is usually impact based. But the other over-rides (i.e. vehicle speed etc) will be vehicle specific.

manic

12th February 2013, 04:32 PM

Or could it be that to own a leaky, rattly, unsafe four wheel drive you have to be oblivious to alternatives? :wasntme:
Are you oblivious to the alternatives? I walk the streets with a crash helmet and a neck brace in case I'm hit by a car. I wear a batman bullet proof, burn proof, bubble wrap onesy at all times! Have you got a super expensive baby stroller with side impact airbags and automatic brakes on roll away detection? I've invented and patented one - yours for $10,999 AUD. Safety for your children at all costs!;)

Being so super safety conscious you may wonder how I can occasionally get in and drive a defender :o

I have given the defender some safety star ratings of my own:

Firstly its noisy and scary as hell at high speed so you are constantly encouraged to drive below the high speed limit.

On town streets with short roads and lower speed limits you wont accelerate quick enough to ever threaten the speed limit or startle a mouse. Certainly not worth trying to speed up between speed bumps!

There are so many noises in the cabin that you just cannot switch off. Unlike these so called modern safety wonder cars you will not drive along having your butt caressed by heated massage seats whilst the stereo whispers classical music to you in high fidelity as the radar controlled cruise control says 'I got this, take a nap!'

In a defender you cannot hear your kids in the back or even your wife along side!

A kid crossing the road between two cars may not notice your high powered low noise car before it suddenly appears. First you hear a defender, then you see a defender, a few minutes later you watch it pass.

If a builders scaffold pole comes flying through a defenders driver window it wont hit the driver because they sit behind the B pillar. ahHa didnt think of that one in their tests did they!:p

I could possibly go on... :confused:

New car safety features promote a false sense of security. If you speed about in your 10 star safety rated wonder car and crash, even with your crumple zones and air bags you are still just as likely to be killed through the windows, trapped in a fire, wiped out by a road train, etc, etc, etc.

Crash avoidance aids are the high value safety features. I think ABS/Stability braking systems are fantastic additions to the roads. The new defender has ABS but all defenders are a marvel of safety psychology, they encourage and in some way's enforce safe driving through design.

Whatever you drive, BE SAFE AND DRIVE CAREFULLY!
- Captin Safely

PAT303

12th February 2013, 06:05 PM

Agree completely. My wife also thinks they look hideous and I have to agree...

Then D1 looks good IMHO, the D2 not too bad. From then on they got far and fugly. (conversely I think the current RRS is probably the nicest looking rangie ever made).

Aside from the looks, I still can't believe they are a tonne heavier than my 110!

I think you completely missed Rick's point...

Good points.

As for the bolded bits - it is not just "not worry" but it is so much harder to actually dint a defender offroad.

e.g. - I drove out of this without any damage
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/GrantP77/Levuka%20March%202011/4WDingatLevuka052.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/727.jpg

Gordon (gghaggis) is the only person I know who does tracks of similar levels of difficulty in a D3/RRS and from his own accounts on here (and seeing his current and former vehicles driving around the burbs) regular panel beating and tail light replacements are needed.

What track is that,were is it and when are you inviting me on the next trip. Pat

PAT303

12th February 2013, 06:11 PM

So an ANCAP rating is all marketing is it? Thanks for the tip.

And are you for real about that statement on the Limo? What a load of bull dung.

It is marketing hype yes,the only difference between a five star rating and one lower is crash avoidance,stability control and pedestrian safety,human friendly bumpers,neither will do squat in a crash. Pat

isuzurover

12th February 2013, 06:12 PM

What track is that,were is it and when are you inviting me on the next trip. Pat

That was at Levuka - 2011 GCLRO trip. WA has a distinct lack of rainforest (and steep hills :( )

I also don't have pics of the creek/waterfall track. My (near stock) 110 fitted through without a scratch. A Disco/RRS would have been wedged in the middle...

strangy

12th February 2013, 08:15 PM

So an ANCAP rating is all marketing is it? Thanks for the tip.

I never said that at all, but you should do bit of research what it really translates to.

Incidentally I have just purchased my first ever new vehicle (I am fortunate) it has the highest ANCAP rating available currently, it isnt a Land Rover nor a 4wd. despite this there are many circumstances where it wont help me any more than a lesser rated vehicle.

And are you for real about that statement on the Limo? What a load of bull dung.

If you are serious about the question your missus aked you and you intend to apply that to your choice of vehicle based on that response , then yes. How many Presidents have died in car crash?:wasntme:

2stroke

12th February 2013, 09:13 PM

I guess it's a question guaranteed to get a response or two, but fact is they're two VERY different horses designed for two VERY different courses. One is a small truck which can carry a load offroad, one is a family car which can travel offroad. If you know what course you need to operate on... and if you have the money chosing the right horse can't be that hard, right?

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 09:41 PM

I never said that at all, but you should do bit of research what it really translates to.

Incidentally I have just purchased my first ever new vehicle (I am fortunate) it has the highest ANCAP rating available currently, it isnt a Land Rover nor a 4wd. despite this there are many circumstances where it wont help me any more than a lesser rated vehicle.

If you are serious about the question your missus aked you and you intend to apply that to your choice of vehicle based on that response , then yes. How many Presidents have died in car crash?:wasntme:

Actually you're being quite insulting. My wife's point was that we need to buy the safest car within reason for our family. You saying that we should buy a limo and have security guards is over the top and aggravating.

Ive actually done a lot of research into car safety and I'm sick of people thinking they understand your situation on a bloody forum. I bought my wife a new car. And guess what? Its got a 5 star ANCAP rating.

dullbird

12th February 2013, 09:50 PM

and on that note why dont we just all take a deep breath hey ;)

gusthedog

12th February 2013, 10:33 PM

For me its about realistically managing the risks you can manage. If its a choice between two great cars but one of them is crash tested, has a recognized safety standard and has child anchors factory fitted then thats my decision made. I don't think I'd have the opportunity to regularly over stretch a D3/4 off-road anyway.

And managing risk is how I ride my bike. I don't ride in towns or traffic, I don't go fast, I always wear full safety gear and think all drivers are trying to kill me. If you are happy to drive like that in a defender too thats fine. I used to own a fantastic 110. But times have changed and for me lowering the risk to those that matter to me matters more than outright off road ability. My choice given the two would be the D3.

strangy

12th February 2013, 11:33 PM

Actually you're being quite insulting. My wife's point was that we need to buy the safest car within reason for our family. You saying that we should buy a limo and have security guards is over the top and aggravating.

Ive actually done a lot of research into car safety and I'm sick of people thinking they understand your situation on a bloody forum. I bought my wife a new car. And guess what? Its got a 5 star ANCAP rating.

Ha, insulting? aggravating? over a forum comment like that..........pfft
hasnt stopped you posting on a forum about others decisions ideas or situations.

UncleHo

13th February 2013, 12:14 AM

Well, I have had the pleasure of last week travelling a couple of hundred kilometres in a new 2013 Defender, 2.2 TCDi and drove about 100+ of that country/suburban and believe me it was anything but slow, noisy, leaky,(yes it rained) and the stereo was quite enjoyable complete with CD player and USB port, the 6 speed gearbox is a dream,the ABS works well,and it handles and corners without body roll,and 120 kph comes up at 2400rpm in 6th.

PAT303

13th February 2013, 12:19 AM

Actually you're being quite insulting. My wife's point was that we need to buy the safest car within reason for our family. You saying that we should buy a limo and have security guards is over the top and aggravating.

Ive actually done a lot of research into car safety and I'm sick of people thinking they understand your situation on a bloody forum. I bought my wife a new car. And guess what? Its got a 5 star ANCAP rating.

Re-read roverrescue's post no.43,as an Ambulance officer who's attended many crash's his post is spot on,also there's no difference between a three star and five star vehicle in a crash but if it makes you feel better having 5 stars all the power to you,it's your money,your vehicle and your family. Pat

TerryO

13th February 2013, 12:57 AM

I spend a day at work and not on here and look what happens! All you kids start bashing each other ...;)

Ok I'll try and summarise what has been written so far;

The pros of owning a Defender as covered by the Defender camp.

1. defenders are better off road and less prone to panel damage than a D3 ...for some unexplained reason.

2. Defenders owners think all (bar Gordon) Disco owners are scared of getting scratches on their Disco's so they never go in the really rough stuff, so that means their Defenders must be better.

3. Defenders are safer than motorbikes in an accident

4. Many Defender owners think Ancap ratings mean very little.

5. Defender owners think their vehicles are safe because they have a sturdy chassis and air bags are over rated.

6. Many Defender owners think this whole safety angle of it being better to protect your families in a modern 5 star Ancap rated vehicle is basically just a sales pitch.

7. Defenders are better because chicks like them.

8. defenders can hit lots of wild life when they have bull bars fitted with little damage ...Funny thing is the same thing happens in a Disco when a bull bar is fitted ...but what the heck.

The pros as presented by Disco owners on this occasion why D3/4's etc are better;

1. Various reasons from their excellent off road ability and on road comfort, though most posts being based on safety.

Truth is I'm to tired at this late hour to go into all the reasons a late model Disco is in my opinion a better all round vehicle. If you owned one then you would know why.

Still while both are good off road and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I must admit it's hard to go past the safety point that keeps being raised and many Defender owners keep scoffing at.

Below is a link to an accident that happened is SA when a drunk driver in a Audi driving at over 200 kph crossed a highway and hit a family of four head on in their Disco 3 doing about 100 kph in the opposite direction. This thread created lots of discussion at the time in the D3/4 section.
Anyway go have a look at the many pics taken by one of the forums members called Koos Best, who also owns a D3, then judge for yourself whether you would rather be in (and have your family in) a Disco 3/4 or your Defender in a similar situation.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/141338-horrific-accident-d3-south-africa-4.html

One other point, someone commented that they didn't understand why a D3/4 is over a ton heavier than their Defender?

The answer is simple while your Defender may have a sturdy chassis, a Disco 3/4 also has a sturdy chassis and a full monocoque body, which basically means it has the best of both worlds in modern vehicle design when it comes to strength and safety, however this over engineering makes them heavy.
That is how a Disco 3/4 can have the body, from bumper to bumper, lifted off the chassis and it doesn't break in two or have the doors jam. Try lifting the body off of your Defender in one piece and see what happens.

It is rumoured the next Defender will be based on the T5 platform (same as the D3/4) if it is then new Defender owners will not only have a great vehicle off road but a much safer one on road.

cheers,
Terry

mikehzz

13th February 2013, 08:04 AM

I reckon Defenders are really lousy to drive....yet other people really enjoy driving them. Some people like tea and others prefer coffee. When we say the reason we don't like something, it shouldn't be taken as an insult to those who do like it. I really like Lara Croft's Defender and wish that I actually liked driving it, but I don't. Disco's are a lovely drive really, but so so in the looks department and way too expensive. Will somebody please make a Defender that is comfortable to sit in and drives even a little like a Disco (6 speed tiptronic please)? Jeep have done it with a Wrangler. I test drove a Defender then a Wrangler back to back. The Jeep was so much more pleasant to drive. A Defender could be too in my opinion. But then we risk spoiling Defenders for those who like them now, and that's like the traditional Coke new Coke argument all over again.
As for off road, nobody is going to question a Defender. The Disco's are pretty awesome as well in my opinion but who wants to dent or scratch such an expensive car?

goingbush

13th February 2013, 08:20 AM

Fifth Gear: 4x4 Crash Test - YouTube

(theres a 90 lined up in the background , cant find the test video of that tho )

Dougal

13th February 2013, 08:31 AM

(theres a 90 lined up in the background , cant find the test video of that tho )

I trust 5th gear videos soo little I'd expect them to saw up the chassis to get the result they wanted.
Other videos include tyre safety where they deliberately throw a car to break traction and try to edit that out of the shot and crash tests where cars had no engines.

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 08:33 AM

Terry
thanks for your summary - I think you missed that chicks dig defenders :)

It is interesting to note that an Audi A4 also has a lovely 5 star rating - what if the family of four was in the audi doing 100 and the disco was the drunk flying missile -
That sort of accident was horrific and a lesson in physics - and for once life was fair and the "innocent" family were spared while the "guilty" speeding drunk driver not??? If the table were turned which so happens in life how would you feel about the whole thing?

That sort of accident you cannot truly factor in a safety buying decision - well you can emotionally but you cant logically - it is an outlier

The data on defenders being safe vehicles was averaged over real world conditions and real world crashes that happen everyday - not the outliers

No one in their right mind could possibly assume a defender would be 'safe' in a head on at combined speeds approaching 200+km/h but those type of accidents are thankfully exceedingly rare - and choosing a vehicle that has the majic 5 numbers on the chance you will be in one of those accidents is not logical - and if you were in such an accident it is NO guarantee of survival either (Audi A4 driver point in case)

In honesty it comes down to a decision that each person makes for themselves
But in a funny way that decision is always made in a way that we have the landy of our choice and then we justify its existence in our lives

Peace

S

rick130

13th February 2013, 08:41 AM

I spend a day at work and not on here and look what happens! All you kids start bashing each other ...;)

Ok I'll try and summarise what has been written so far;

[snip]
cheers,
Terry

Hahahaha, very selective Terry and I like the twists on the conclusions, but why keep trying so hard to justify your purchase decision ?
What is it that drives you to continually show that a Disco3, the car you purchased is 'better' than a Defender ?

Hmm....

Post # 34.

At the end of the day a 110/130 is a work/commercial biased vehicle, it's built with a massive box section chassis, springs biased towards load carrying and fitted with Light Truck construction tyres. It's built to work.

A Disco is a family wagon with a distinct on road orientation that is very capable off road.

I'm not really sure why this is so hard to grasp ?
[snip]

There endeth the lesson :p

Yorkshire_Jon

13th February 2013, 08:44 AM

Currently on the same boat...

Want a defender whereas the missus wants an RR or disco. She's a bit of the fashion and glamour type so I'm not so sure how much she would like the defender. Maybe the puma but thats probably way out of my budget now. lol

Stick her in a tidy Defer and she'll love it... Been there done that!

Now it's me that wants rid of the Defer for a D4... I'm just not sure I could bring myself to look at the scratches that would inevitably end up on that shiny new paintwork:( so for now the Defer & I remain an item!

Sent using Forum Runner

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 08:44 AM

I think Ill leave the logic to Rick - his at least makes sense

Ill tell you what Terry - when a D7 or whatever can carry two 44s of bang in the back - 200L of water - gear for a fortnight and a pack of hounds well maybe Ill look at downgrading ;)

S

Dougal

13th February 2013, 08:49 AM

No one in their right mind could possibly assume a defender would be 'safe' in a head on at combined speeds approaching 200+km/h but those type of accidents are thankfully exceedingly rare - and choosing a vehicle that has the majic 5 numbers on the chance you will be in one of those accidents is not logical - and if you were in such an accident it is NO gaurentee of survival either (Audi A4 driver point in case)

In an head-on crash, impact speeds don't add, they average. With each vehicle gaining or losing half of the total momentum.

Equal vehicles head on at 100km/h each is the same as each hitting a wall at 100km/h.
Equal vehicles head on, one at 150km/h, the other at 50km/h is again the same as each hitting a wall at 100km/h. But immediately after both vehicles will be doing 50km/h in the direction the faster one was headed.

2 ton vehicle meets 20 ton truck at equal speed, the shared momentum drops the trucks speed by 10% and increases the vehicles speed by 900% in the other direction.

Of course no crashes follow these rules exactly. Most involve evasive action which makes crashes at the least offset with greatly reduced speed.

I just missed a prado take on a maxima at an intersection I lived near. Both vehicles entered at 50 and hit the brakes when they realised they both wanted the same space. Final impact speed was probably 10km/h on each vehicle.

Worst case is the unbeleivably stupid (overtaking blind) or unbeleivably inattentive (driver from another country on the wrong side of the road). The latter here gets in the news about once a year.

TerryO

13th February 2013, 08:57 AM

Hi Roverrescue,

The thing is we aren't comparing any other Ancap rated vehicle like a Audi here, where comparing a D3/4 and a Defender, so the accident is relative.

Yes that kind of accident is at the extreme, but why I showed it was because a family of four got out of such a extreme accident relatively unscathed where as the Audi owner ended up as mince meat literally.

Would a family of four in a Defender having a head on at the usual 100 kph with another vehicle on a country road be its safe? I'll put it another way if there was a head on between a Defender and a Disco 3/4 which one would you prefer to be driving and have your loved ones in after looking at those crash pictures?

Robocop (a Policeman)who comments in that thread stated he has been to many nasty crashes with dead people and that is why in part he sold his 110 and bought a new Disco, so his family would be safer.

To sum up if that family in South Africa came out of that horrendous crash in the condition they did then the Disco is a very good thing. We all know owning any vehicle isn't just about how safe your vehicle of choice is, there are many other factors that make us decide why we buy certain vehicles. But in this thread the difference in safety between the two vehicles is stark and many Defender owners carry on like it means nothing.

cheers,
Terry

gusthedog

13th February 2013, 09:05 AM

Ancap ratings and 60 gazillion airbags are all well and good certainly has helped but...
Marketing works really well when asking the question about your loved ones.

Apologies but the above was where I assumed you meant that ANCAP was a marketing ploy. And I thought that you were having a go at the statement my wife made regarding safety. Combine a long day and a comment about someones wife and yeah, I do get insulted and angry.

I admit to trying to have some fun on the forum and occaisionally stirring the pot with people. So apologies if I have offended as well. It is hard on a forum to get your whole point accross and one shouldn't assume that anyone else has no experience or done any research into an area.

I have had two defenders and both of them have been great vehicles. In my opinion though, they are less safe than my D2 due to its safety rating that includes airbags and crumple zones. And yes it has a steel bullbar and can plough wildlife into the ground

Re-read roverrescue's post no.43,as an Ambulance officer who's attended many crash's his post is spot on,also there's no difference between a three star and five star vehicle in a crash but if it makes you feel better having 5 stars all the power to you,it's your money,your vehicle and your family. Pat

From the ANCAP website Car safety ratings | Car star ratings | Car ratings - ANCAP (http://www.ancap.com.au/starratings):

In an ANCAP 3 star rat ed vehicle, the prominence of Orange (Marginal) in the driver's head, chest, upper legs and lower right leg indicate a moderate risk of serious injury or death. The passenger fares better than the driver, with good protection of the head and lower left leg (Green). Yellow (Acceptable) in the torso, upper left leg and right lower leg of the passenger indicates a lower risk of serious injury.
ANCAP does not recommend purchasing vehicles with less than 4 stars.

In an ANCAP 5 star rated vehicle, the prominence of green (Good) in the head, body and legs, illustrates a high level of protection and survivability for both driver and passenger occupants. Yellow (Acceptable), on the lower legs, and the chest of the passenger, shows only a slight chance of serious injury to these areas, which are not likely to be life threatening.
ANCAP recommends consumers look for 5 star rated vehicles when buying a new car.

Analysis undertaken by the Monash University Accident Research Centre (http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/) has shown that there is a good correlation between the ANCAP crash test results and the vehicle's actual real world performance as measured in the Used Car Safety Ratings. International studies have shown cars that perform better in crash tests provide better occupant protection than vehicles that perform poorly in crash tests; A US study found a driver is 74% less likely to die in cars rated good than cars rated poor in car to car head on crash of two cars of similar mass. A Swedish study also found cars with three or four stars are approximately 30% safer than cars with two stars

It seems that both Monash University and the 'injuries' sustained by the crash test dummies disagree with your statement.

Just so you know, I also work in Emergency Management and my partner is an experienced Ambulance officer so I do have some background in the area. She has been to plenty of accidents to where motorcyclists have been killed. Speed and or alcohol were a major contributing factor in the majority of them. Have you ever tried to ride a DR650 over 120kmh? I agree that motorcycling is dangerous and I should not have brought it up in a safety focus argument. But as I stated, life is about managing the risks you see as the most important. I don't smoke, drink or take drugs but choose to ride a motorbike in the safest way possible.

rick130

13th February 2013, 09:15 AM

sheerluck

13th February 2013, 09:27 AM

..........motorcycling is dangerous..........

I can't really comment from a great position of experience on riding motorbikes, as I got my license at 17 back in the UK but have never ridden one since. The reason being that at 18 I had to go into hospital for an operation, and as my father was in the RAF at the time, it was a Services hospital that I went into (jumping the NHS queue!). In my time in that opthopaedic ward, and I was there a couple of weeks, there were a number of bike crash victims that came in and out, and a couple of guys that were there for the duration.

I saw enough things there to put me off motorbikes for life.

I'm not going to bother giving my opinion on Discovery v Defender, as I don't feel the need to justify my purchases and it has already been done to death, however, I will say that it is the Defender that I would like, but it is the Discovery that I should have.:D

TerryO

13th February 2013, 09:40 AM

Hahahaha, very selective Terry and I like the twists on the conclusions, but why keep trying so hard to justify your purchase decision ?
What is it that drives you to continually show that a Disco3, the car you purchased is 'better' than a Defender ?

Hmm....

Post # 34.

There endeth the lesson :p

I'm not trying to justify owning a D3 Rick, rather just having some fun mocking you Defender owners who love to bite.

You were involved in the earlier similar discussion on this topic in the D3/4 section, apart from me stirring the pot hardly a D3/4 owner bothered to get involved, yet the thread was full of Defender owners saying why their vehicles were better.

Same thing has happened here, basically take Gus and I out of the discussion and there are only staunch Defender owners defending their vehicle of choices honour.

Mind you all joking and ribbing aside I can't believe some of the comments being made about safety as if it means bugger all. You yourself have justified the Defenders lack of safety levels because they are designed as a work horse and not meant as a family vehicle.

That's fine if it was true, but very few Defenders owners I know use them as work horses, nearly all are family vehicles.

Given that I'm not sure what lesson you were trying to give?

LR gets round the standard passenger safety requirements by selling them as 'work vehicles' even though they know most are bought as family transport and will never be used for work.

By the way did you actually look at the link with the pictures of the crash between the Audi and the D3?

cheers,
Terry

jerryd

13th February 2013, 10:36 AM

When the timing is right I will purchase one of these :)

Saluki | JE Engineering (http://www.jeengineering.co.uk/saluki.html)

Dougal

13th February 2013, 10:43 AM

The problem with safety is there is no limit. There can always be more padding imposed, at far greater inconvenience, to make things "safer".

strangy

13th February 2013, 10:43 AM

Apologies but the above was where I assumed you meant that ANCAP was a marketing ploy. And I thought that you were having a go at the statement my wife made regarding safety. Combine a long day and a comment about someones wife and yeah, I do get insulted and angry........

No harm done;) No insult intended.

Ride a bike to work daily also, sometimes rely on a quick getaway to stay out of others apathetic driving attitude.

Without trying to take the thread even more off track and just my own personal reflection.

There are quite a number of us here involved in trauma/ medical area with some very sad experiences to reflect on.
For Me the strongest influences from these have not been the car I drive but rather to my driving style,attitude and vehicle loading/ setup.

Cheers

Jeff

13th February 2013, 11:19 AM

Perhaps the Disco owners are talking up their vehicles to reduce their terrible depreciation, hoping Defender owners will buy their second hand Discos when they buy new D4s. :o

Nobody has mentioned the depreciation of Discos compared to Defenders. Discos go out of fashion once a new one comes out. Defenders never go out of fashion, or maybe never were in fashion. ;)

To go from four star ANCAP to five you simply need a beeping seatbelt warning instead of just a flashing one.

Jeff

:rocket:

rick130

13th February 2013, 11:47 AM

[snip]
That's fine if it was true, but very few Defenders owners I know use them as work horses, nearly all are family vehicles.

Given that I'm not sure what lesson you were trying to give?

LR gets round the standard passenger safety requirements by selling them as 'work vehicles' even though they know most are bought as family transport and will never be used for work.

[snip]
cheers,
Terry

Actually the vast majority sold worldwide are commercial/work trucks, pure and simple, and most all 130's sold in Australia are destined to work.

90's and 110's are the exception in this country, but how many would be sold over a twelve month period ?
100 or less ?
Compare that to how Defenders are sold and used in the UK, Italy, Germany, Southern Africa and you'll note the very different usage.

The only thing I will add to the safety arguments is that driver training is something sadly neglected in this country, and that secondary/passive safety systems are continually advocated and pushed over improving the best crash avoidance system on offer, the individual behind the wheel.

For the majority of drivers active safety systems such as ABS and now stability control are major advances, but the drivers need major improvement and no one is game to touch that one :(

TerryO

13th February 2013, 11:51 AM

The answer is easy Jeff, buy a D3/4 secondhand and let someone else suffer the lions share of depreciation and you can get a great secondhand Disco for less than the price of a new Defender.. ...:p

Anyway enough about safety the point has been proven beyond a doubt so let's get back to off road prowess.

As you have seen my good old D3 is capable of going anywhere the Fender brigade went on the last jaunt and did it often easier then the Fenders and it did this on 31" A/T's which means it is legal to drive on road in NSW's. I only once got hung up because of lack of ramp over angle because of the long wheelbase and small diameter tyres.

How many of the Defenders had road legal size tyres on them on that trip? Not many I would hazard a guess.

I'm not sure why being more prepared to risk damage to ones 4x4 when off road suddenly makes one model better than another, even though that has been inferred in this discussion a number of times.

cheers,
Terry

Michael2

13th February 2013, 11:59 AM

SAFETY

The Defender can carry more cargo safely than the Disco.

So crash safety aside, what has a greater risk on being in a crash
- a Defender on a dirt road?
- a Disco towing a trailer on a dirt road?

Bigger wheels means that holes are proportionally smaller (compare hitting a pot hole with a skate board or a wheel barrow to understand what I mean by proportionally smaller). Obstacles are also proportionally smaller, so that the Defender wheel is more likely to roll over an obstacle rather than be deflected by it (such as a gutter, rock etc). Also the Defender is far less likely to rip a tyre on impact with an obstacle - resulting in loss of control.

Now compound this with what speeds each of these vehicles is capable of travelling at.

This means that while a Disco might better survive a catastrophic crash, the Defender is less liekly to be involved in a catastrophic crash.

Jeff

13th February 2013, 12:03 PM

Terry, I was actually going to mention on this thread how impressed I was with your D3 off road, but the focus shifted away and got rather nasty.

At least two of the Defenders on that trip were straight out of the showroom, not counting roof rack and side steps and most had road legal tyres (I think mine are road legal, just the rims have excessive offset putting them outside the flares).

Buy a second hand Discovery? No thanks, been there done that, got burned, badly.

Jeff

:rocket:

TerryO

13th February 2013, 12:43 PM

I didn't read anything actually that I considered being nasty Jeff, maybe I have thicker skin than most.

I considered trying to have a shot at some one who was talking about vehicle safety for riding a motorcycle as being bad taste and a try to divert the discussion off topic, but such is life.

Re legal tyre sizes in NSW's, from memory, without an engineers certificate a vehicle is not road worthy if tyres are fitted that are over 20 mm wider or 15 mm taller than standard.

cheers,
Terry

AndrewGJones

13th February 2013, 12:49 PM

the lack of defender crash data make all comparisons on safety conjecture.

A decent bullbar would have made that audi crash an entirely different event. Now what conjecture could I spin off that? Just that I would rather have a bullbar but have no 'crash data' to back that choice up (on a defender anyway).

the lack of defender crash data makes the landrover boffins look like they are trying to hide something. Why not just smash a few up and see what happens? typical corporate thinking; if we can get out of something we will.

Having said that, why didn't the disco driver see that car coming? was it the surround sound stereo? kids fighting over the DVD player? was he getting sleepy in his rolling lounge room? admiring his in-dash SatNav, adjusting his gazillion disc CD player? My point being; Did he see it coming at all?, what type of driving habits did he use at that speed? Competent long distance drivers are taking note of exit routes and oncoming traffic continually and would steer to avoid a head on at just about any cost.

i drive with the window half down, no stereo, or on only softly -never relaxing music, and I'm taking note of on coming vehicles lane position and type, all habits picked up from a truckie father, but quite easy to learn for anyone serious about driving safely at speed.

Replicate that particular accident and I would want the disco as the evidence is they survived, but real world, I'll keep driving without the distractions and keep my eyes/concentration on the road.

Ironically, it may be because I do tend to daydream that I am so 'against' all the luxury trappings, perhaps others are better able to stay focused than me. Again, that has always been something I'm aware of and take into account.

rick130

13th February 2013, 12:54 PM

[snip]

Re legal tyre sizes in NSW's, from memory, without an engineers certificate a vehicle is not road worthy if tyres are fitted that are over 20 mm wider or 15 mm taller than standard.

cheers,
Terry

Yep, AFAIA the NCOP 50mm tyre OD increase hasn't been adopted in NSW as in other states.

The weird thing in NSW too is that once upon a time the RTA allowed a 50mm track increase on live axle 4x4's, but sometime in the last decade they've brought that back to 25mm as per normal IS cars.

Dougal

13th February 2013, 01:05 PM

Perhaps the Disco owners are talking up their vehicles to reduce their terrible depreciation, hoping Defender owners will buy their second hand Discos when they buy new D4s. :o

If that were true, then discos would be cheap enough that my wife would overlook the mercedes van-like appearance.

But it ain't. The bloody (diesel) things aren't depreciating much at all.

isuzurover

13th February 2013, 01:27 PM

rick130

13th February 2013, 01:48 PM

goingbush

13th February 2013, 01:56 PM

the lack of defender crash data make all comparisons on safety conjecture.

This might help explain

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/705.jpg

Hmm, Smart Crash test dummy

AndrewGJones

13th February 2013, 04:10 PM

haha, that would explain it then.

This conversation is actually making me rethink alot of my opinions on the subject and the list of mods I want now has these at the top of the list.;

Defender cages by Safety Devices (http://www.eastcoastrover.com/SDmain.html)

Of the two major accidents I've walked away from, one was a rollover, and the defender doesn't look like it does well at all.

Still, I'll stick by my basic 'it's the driver' more than the vehicle most of the time determining safety.

Michael2

13th February 2013, 04:56 PM

This might help explain

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/705.jpg

Hmm, Smart Crash test dummy

He's no dummy, he just doesn't want to see a perfectly good Defender with another 50 years left in it smashed up.

manic

13th February 2013, 06:01 PM

... then judge for yourself whether you would rather be in (and have your family in) a Disco 3/4 or your Defender in a similar situation.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/141338-horrific-accident-d3-south-africa-4.html

Unless we could compare the defender in the same accident you can't use this to prove anything other than a head on collision between an Audi traveling much faster than a Disco = Disco Win.

What if two cars are heading for a head on collision both traveling at 100kph. One is a D3 with its crumple zones, monoqoque body and bull bar the other a defender 110 with a steel ladder chassis anchored bull bar. Which one would you rather be in? You wouldn't want to be in either of course, and personally I would have to flip a coin. A solid defender would use the disco as a crumple zone and could rip through the disco, mount it and decapitate it - you just don't know.

I like isuzurovers graph showing driver protection from real world data, it seems like a more informed way to choose a safe car.

Try lifting the body off of your Defender in one piece and see what happens.

Its a common way to do a chassis swap on defenders. A damn sight easier than on a disco. The owner of this vehicle has gone with the optional roll cage safety feature. :p.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/503.jpg

I do not only own a Defender, for the majority of drives that involve 100% tarmac I have no reason to use a disco or any other big 4x4. But that's just me. And that is why this thread is redonk, completely futile. Let's start a new thread in the general section 'Whats better, a pen or a pencil?'

Rohan

13th February 2013, 06:21 PM

Pencil, they work in space. Although I've always fancied a pen, for the weekends......

dullbird

13th February 2013, 06:25 PM

Its a common way to do a chassis swap on defenders. A damn sight easier than on a disco. The owner of this vehicle has gone with the optional roll cage safety feature. :p.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/503.jpg

I do not only own a Defender, for the majority of drives that involve 100% tarmac I have no reason to use a disco or any other big 4x4. But that's just me. And that is why this thread is redonk, completely futile. Let's start a new thread in the general section 'Whats better, a pen or a pencil?'

Am I the only one that had to look twice at this picture because it looked like the body had been lifted with a toilet roll:D

goingbush

13th February 2013, 06:30 PM

Pencil, they work in space. Although I've always fancied a pen, for the weekends......

ahem

I have a Fisher Space Pen, it works in space, writes underwater and writes on oily paper - try doing that with a pencil.

Perfect for my Defender, it even writes on damp / dusty / oily paper. ;)

manic

13th February 2013, 07:00 PM

Personally I don't like the feel of a pencil when writing, it has a strange textured feeling and makes a scrape/squealing sound that I find uncomfortable. A luxury pen on the other hand, well it just glides!

TerryO

13th February 2013, 07:07 PM

A quick Q re wheel travel (please, no references to elicktickery eliminating the need for any vertical wheel movement at all :p )

How much actual travel is there in bump and droop in a D3/4 ?

The reason I ask is that I have about 110mm travel in bump at the bump stop in the front end ( more at the rear) meaning there's well, well in excess of 110mm of bump travel at the wheel yet routinely use all of that in day to day driving around here.

I'n not talking off road, just the normal secondary bitumen and dirt roads and tracks I run around on.

If a car has less travel than that it would have to be driven at a much lower speed so that you aren't crashing hard into the bump stops continually (as I need to do when drving the Patrol)

Also, while the elecktrickery is obviously brilliant, ultimately more wheel travel equates to greater stability when crawling too, especially when roll/wheel and damping rates are optimised and balanced and this increased stability allows you to drive and place wheels much more assuredly/precisely and dare I say it, safely

Sorry I can't remember how much travel with the shocks set on standard a D3/4 has.
But I can and have directly compared my Bilstein fitted D1 with 2" body lift and 2" suspension lift and 33" A/T's and how it drives on rough roads to the D3 and even the D2a.

The D1 does roll over some smaller stuff at slower speeds very easy compared to the standard D2a and even better in some cases than the D3, but for ride, handling and control there is little comparision the D3 wins hands down especially as speed picks up.

And having compared my D1 to a few other D1's it handles very well considering the mods it has.

I'm not comparing cabin noise or driver seat comfort in this either, as the D2a HSE has the most comfortable seats by far and makes the D3's seats feel like rubbish.

The air suspenion on the D3 is far superior to any coil sprung suspended 4x4 I have driven by far, including late model Patrols and 100 and 200 series Cruisers.

The only 4x4 I have driven that gives you a similar feeling of security in its handling is the new Jeep Grand Cherokee that has a similar gas (in the Jeeps case nitrogen) suspension to the D3/4. Actually having driven several of the new Jeeps I would have to say as a daily driver the new Jeep is actually a nicer drive then either the D3 or D4 I'm sorry to say. ...:(

cheers,
Terry

manic

13th February 2013, 07:27 PM

Actually having driven several of the new Jeeps I would have to say as a daily driver the new Jeep is actually a nicer drive then either the D3 or D4 I'm sorry to say. ...:(

cheers,
Terry

That's gotta be the last straw, first you disrespect grand-daddy defender and then you admit to hanky-panky with a jeep! Moderators, ban this man! :D

scarry

13th February 2013, 07:59 PM

As has been stated, NCAP type testing is artificial and does not necessarily represent the real world.

A comprehensive and rigorous study of accidents in the UK between 2000-2004 showed that the defender (no airbags) was safer than all other cars and 4x4s on the road. Including the discovery (D1 at the time) and Merc ML.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Defender_Safest_zps5e76ffd3.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Defender_Safest_zps5e76ffd3.jpg

Note that the study only looked at chance of injury to the driver - since the vast majority of vehicles are driven with a driver only and no passengers (hence the vast majority of crashes are the same).

Looking at this type of data that is years old is not really worth a cracker today.

There have been massive improvements in vehicle safety over the last ten years or so.

As Rick130 has said,the best thing that could be done would be more driver training,education, etc ,for the nut behind the wheel.But unfortunately this doesn't look like happening any time soon .

I recently went to a BMW driver training course with a mate.What an eye opener,we both learnt a lot.A fantastic day,which should be mandatory for anyone with a drivers license.

I am on the road every day,and i continually see what these nuts do behind the wheel:(

As for the Defender,D3/4 comparison,in my view it is whatever rocks your boat.

If you like owning a defender,great,if you want a disco,great.

Difficult to compare two completely different types of vehicle,built for completely different uses.

morpheus

13th February 2013, 09:37 PM

Still while both are good off road and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I must admit it's hard to go past the safety point that keeps being raised and many Defender owners keep scoffing at.

Below is a link to an accident that happened is SA when a drunk driver in a Audi driving at over 200 kph crossed a highway and hit a family of four head on in their Disco 3 doing about 100 kph in the opposite direction. This thread created lots of discussion at the time in the D3/4 section.
Anyway go have a look at the many pics taken by one of the forums members called Koos Best, who also owns a D3, then judge for yourself whether you would rather be in (and have your family in) a Disco 3/4 or your Defender in a similar situation.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/141338-horrific-accident-d3-south-africa-4.html

One other point, someone commented that they didn't understand why a D3/4 is over a ton heavier than their Defender?

The answer is simple while your Defender may have a sturdy chassis, a Disco 3/4 also has a sturdy chassis and a full monocoque body, which basically means it has the best of both worlds in modern vehicle design when it comes to strength and safety, however this over engineering makes them heavy.
That is how a Disco 3/4 can have the body, from bumper to bumper, lifted off the chassis and it doesn't break in two or have the doors jam. Try lifting the body off of your Defender in one piece and see what happens.

It is rumoured the next Defender will be based on the T5 platform (same as the D3/4) if it is then new Defender owners will not only have a great vehicle off road but a much safer one on road.

cheers,
Terry

Gotta say, and while I do have a soft spot for the Defender, looking at that link has just firmed up the Disco 3 as the next family vehicle. That accident was horrific. Thanks for posting the link.

rick130

13th February 2013, 09:38 PM

[snip]

The air suspenion on the D3 is far superior to any coil sprung suspended 4x4 I have driven by far, including late model Patrols and 100 and 200 series Cruisers.

[snip]

Not doubting what you've felt for a second, but I'd reckon I could get a coil spring suspension to feel even better/more stable than air bags (and I plan on going with air bags on the 130, at least on the rear to start with)
In other words the spring medium shouldn't matter, although the inherent rising rate of a gas spring can work against you.
This is the reason air shocks such as Fox and King make aren't used on off road racers, only rock crawlers.

It all comes down to spring rates, roll rates, wheel travel, geometry and most importantly, damping.

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 09:39 PM

terry now we are getting somewhere,
Rick has the benefit of 27 or so inches of wheel base. All discos are too short to be good at fast broken dirt second grade roads. ? ?

My old 130 with a pus bag tdi constantly amazes friends in new play does, 200s, etc etc (no one has fancy discos up here) with the average speeds it will hold on poor roads. Dunno what it is, i am not unsafe but the 130 sticks like glue throufgh broken corners and over washouts that others are slowing then accelerating for. ? ? ? On average i am the one waiting.

The only time i lose out is on the pdr where stupid speeds are possible and i refuse to do them on dirt

Next time your in the deep north we should head out and get you 3tonner stuck to the gillsin quick mud :-) dont stress ill just drive round you chain up and winch you out :-)

S

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 09:44 PM

Ps
Uniball eye micro in black.
Only way to fly.
S

rick130

13th February 2013, 09:54 PM

Good point Steve.
I keep forgetting how much is trailing away behind and it makes a difference.

I felt it immediately when I jumped into Serg's 110, and he noticed the extra length of the 130 as soon as he started to manoeuvre it into the street.

What a longer wheelbase does for you is slow down transients, it makes things feel slower and increases stability.

The shorter the wheelbase the faster it reacts to your input, but also the more reactive it is to the terrain too.

On really tight, switchback stuff a shorter wheelbase will be a faster vehicle, all things being equal.
On longer, more flowing and straight out fast corners a longer wheelbase is a huge advantage.

TerryO

13th February 2013, 10:24 PM

terry now we are getting somewhere,
Rick has the benefit of 27 or so inches of wheel base. All discos are too short to be good at fast broken dirt second grade roads. ? ?

edited ... :-)

Next time your in the deep north we should head out and get you 3tonner stuck to the gillsin quick mud :-) dont stress ill just drive round you chain up and winch you out :-)

S

Ok Roverrescue thank you for the offer and believe me I'd be more than happy to look you up when I get a chance to get away from work long enough to head properly up north to visit the lovely spot where you live.

As you have raised this subject lets compare wheelbases and overhang between the two vehicles.

A 110 Defender has a wheel base of 2794 mm & overall length of 4785

A D3/4 has a wheel base of ............2885 mm & overall length of 4829

So a D3/4 has a longer wheel base and just a little bit less over hang than a 110 Defender. I'd guess that would come as a bit of a surprise for most reading this thread.

Can't wait to get those 32" muds on the old girl before the next off road jaunt with those sooky Fender boys. ...;)

cheers,
Terry

isuzurover

13th February 2013, 10:28 PM

Looking at this type of data that is years old is not really worth a cracker today.

Sorry, but I say that statement is complete BS. At the very least, those data show that there is a huge disparity between NCAP testing and the real world.

I don't think anyone would disagree that vehicle safety has improved a lot since 2004, or that a defender would suck in a heavy rollover, but how much that matters in the real world is another matter.

The other thing that is clear from the (overall) stats in the study (And other similar studies) is that mass/size is your friend. It is clear that it in an accident between a defender (or disco) and a 5-star rated small car, you want to be in the defender. Yet in NCAP type testing 4x4s often look worse than smaller car-type vehicles.

EDIT - A quick search reveals that ~half the cars on that list that the defender beats are 4-star ANCAP rated - same as the D3!!!

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 10:30 PM

any time terry,
All Landy drivers are welcome out at the shed :-)
Your still short on wheel base.
Real fenders run a wheel base of 3225mm

Just the way it is

I do wonder if the d3 handling over a d1 or 2 is a function of that extra 300 or so mm of wheel base?

Steve

goingbush

13th February 2013, 10:30 PM

ive been waiting for someone in defence of the d3/4 to post this

Range Rover Sport + Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 extreme steep climbing - YouTube

cant believe anyone would attempt that with one hand blocking the sun from his eyes, :eek:

no doubt about it, those cars drive themselves !!

I'd have to be driving the whole way in the Defender, both hands , feet and brain in gear - but not into the sun

Still, fact is, I do prefer to do the driving !!

TerryO

13th February 2013, 10:38 PM

What if two cars are heading for a head on collision both traveling at 100kph. One is a D3 with its crumple zones, monoqoque body and bull bar the other a defender 110 with a steel ladder chassis anchored bull bar. Which one would you rather be in? You wouldn't want to be in either of course, and personally I would have to flip a coin. A solid defender would use the disco as a crumple zone and could rip through the disco, mount it and decapitate it - you just don't know.

'

Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though, a D3 has a full chassis and a monogoque body bolted on top, as I said it actually has the best of both worlds when it comes to structural rigidity for its passengers..

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please?

cheers,
Terry

roverrescue

13th February 2013, 10:48 PM

ohhh terry you make it too easy :-)
All fenders have the most significant safety device inside the cabin

The one on the tiller :-)

Steve

TerryO

13th February 2013, 11:13 PM

ive been waiting for someone in defence of the d3/4 to post this

Range Rover Sport + Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 extreme steep climbing - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U-yFmnu0sY)

cant believe anyone would attempt that with one hand blocking the sun from his eyes, :eek:

no doubt about it, those cars drive themselves !!

I'd have to be driving the whole way in the Defender, both hands , feet and brain in gear - but not into the sun

Still, fact is, I do prefer to do the driving !!

Yes Goingbush, that is an excellent video showcasing how good a D3/4 is at going places off road many other 4x4's struggle, by the way there is another utube video from Moesgatle that involves a Land Rover for those who have not seen it.

Accident @ Moegatle - Koos se Klim /Tsogwe - YouTube

Luckily apart from someones pride no one was hurt.

cheers,
Terry

TD50WA

13th February 2013, 11:24 PM

Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though, a D3 has a full chassis and a monogoque body bolted on top, as I said it actually has the best of both worlds when it comes to structural rigidity for its passengers..

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please?

cheers,
Terry

Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

TerryO

13th February 2013, 11:33 PM

Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

Enough said on this me thinks, thanks for commenting on what is a very serious and important topic Kev.

Anyway thats it for me for now. The rest of you Defender owners can argue it out if a 90 or a 110 really is a real Defender or if only 130's are, as has been mentioned a few posts ago. ...:p

Or even better still, the two utube clips of the D3 and the Fender going up that little hill in SA could be discussed. ...:angel:

cheers,
Terry ;)

goingbush

13th February 2013, 11:58 PM

Some people just have to have the last word.

(why did I post that Moetgale video :o )

I still think a pen is better than a pencil :wasntme:

rick130

14th February 2013, 07:12 AM

[snip]

I still think a pen is better than a pencil :wasntme:

Naa, a finger nail dipped in tar :D

Dougal

14th February 2013, 07:26 AM

Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

In a head-on, crumple zones in either vehicle reduce the impact forces on both.
The end result of forces felt by the occupants (airbags excluded) is in the ratio of vehicle mass.
Acceleration = Force/Mass. The force is the same.

Put simply, in any head on, the heavier vehicles occupants take less impact. You put any 5 star 1 ton car head on into a 1 star 2 ton 4wd and the 4 star difference becomes very insignificant.

manic

14th February 2013, 10:16 AM

Fine one more bite.

Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though - nope don't think so.

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.
You assume that I assumed that. Example was a head on collision between a def and disco at the same speed, in that situation I'm well aware that the disco makes for an excellent crumple zone.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives. The Audi had many airbags too. For the most part the disco occupants were saved by the mass and size of their car. Of course it is better to have the air bags, but clearly they will do next to nothing for you if you crash head on into a heavier object at high speed.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please? In a big slow defender sensible driving with a seat belt is all you need. I drive smaller cars at faster speeds with ABS, Stability control, wrap around airbags , pre-tensioners and all that and I am not as safe - look what happened to the Audi!

cheers,
Terry

If a defender suits your needs but you are so worried about your safety on the road that you would completely rule it out then you might want to consider not driving on the roads at all.

goingbush

14th February 2013, 10:53 AM

All the safety features in my Brothers ANCAP 4 star rated 4x4 did not stop his wife & unborn child being killed in a crash on the Calder a few years ago.

manic

14th February 2013, 11:40 AM

Sorry to hear that Don, so sad. :(

We all take steps to reduce risk and it give's us piece of mind - but we will always be at the mercy of life's infinite variables and unpredictable nature.

Whats that cheesy sticker I keep seeing on land rovers... oh yea
'One Life Live It!'

True say.

isuzurover

14th February 2013, 11:52 AM

...

Put simply, in any head on, the heavier vehicles occupants take less impact. You put any 5 star 1 ton car head on into a 1 star 2 ton 4wd and the 4 star difference becomes very insignificant.

Exactly...

Brad

14th February 2013, 12:12 PM

Tyre pressure not down far enough on the deefer to do the rock hill climb IMHO, based on what they look like on the video (on my iphone).

Tombie

14th February 2013, 12:25 PM

All the safety features in my Brothers ANCAP 4 star rated 4x4 did not stop his wife & unborn child being killed in a crash on the Calder a few years ago.

And that is the reality of it right there^ :(

Drive cautiously and safely, pay attention to your surroundings.
Be vigilant where possible and show patience and respect for all other road users.

Sad to hear such a thing GoingBush - puts it all in perspective.

Drive like everyone else is out to kill you - the extra care and attention may save your life or that of people you care about.

And Do NOT for one minute think that the vehicle will protect you.
Yes some are better than others - but it means nothing in many cases.

Just go to Otway and have a look in the SAPOL compound - I have.

The lesser damaged vehicles are often the ones in which the Fatality occurred. :o

TD50WA

14th February 2013, 07:20 PM

As I said, there are no winners in this discussion, just opinions.

You cannot take any single situation and apply the result as a given to all crashes, the dynamics of every crash are different.

Yes, I can apply the mathematical equation relating to force as well....physics was part of my degree. The problem with that is that far more maths than that simpe equation are required to understand the dynamics of the crash.

The disco versus defender was a hypothetical situation and using my own experience as well as the maths, I stand by my answer.

The reality is that real crashes don't follow the maths....there are many other variables. .....angle of impact, co efficient of the road surface, how much each car braked if at all, individual speed of the vehicles at impact variation in vehicle dynamics such as height, mass, where the cars actually touch, is it a full front, which is very rare, usually it's a half contact .....so simply applying a basic force equation is not the complete truth.

People still die in modern equipped cars and people will always survive in defender type cars.....that is the law of averages....and proof that the crash dynamics are never the same or a simple thing to work out.

But all things being equal, the modern airbag etc equipped car is a safer option. Tombie is absolutely correct in saying the biggest safety item in any car is the driver. ...but crashes are not always your fault and not always avoidable.

I haven't looked at the Audi picture, I don't need to. But if one of the variable of that collision had been different, then the outcome may also have been different for both cars.

Again, as Tombie says, drive safely, don't rely on your car to save you, you cannot predict what type of crash you might be unfortunate to be involved in. Don't be mislead by one photo and apply that to all situations....

George130

15th February 2013, 08:01 PM

The comment earlier about head ons not being common doesn't take into account the roads around here. Head ons at high speed are quite common on the Barton Highway.

But safety is only one issue. I trust the Defender but in a roll over it is going to be flat.
The Fiat I X1/9 I drive is more likely to end up under the bigger 4wd's around me on the road. At least it has those horrid monster bumpers.

Dougal

16th February 2013, 08:34 AM

The comment earlier about head ons not being common doesn't take into account the roads around here. Head ons at high speed are quite common on the Barton Highway.

What is causing that?

George130

16th February 2013, 10:41 AM

Heavy commuter traffic mixed with learners and city holiday motorists. You also have people trying to enter from side roads into 100km'h zones. They have also removed the safe overtaking points but left some of the stupid ones. Latest claim is over a 24 hour period there is not enough traffic to upgrade to a dual carridge way yet in the peak times the lines of traffic are huge. What used to be a 45 minute run can now blow out anywhere up to double that.
Motorists are taking bigger chances to get ahead and tailgate. The maintenance seams to always be on the good bits while ignoring the shokking parts. Strangly most accidents seam to be where the road is better and I would have thought you can't crash without being daft.
I'm regurly finding we drop from 100 to 40 km/h for no apparent reason these days but then you can't see the front of the line or the back.
Oh and at night most don't dip their lights anymore and that includes the truck and bus drivers :nazilock:

bob10

16th February 2013, 07:20 PM

Drive like everyone else is out to kill you - the extra care and attention may save your life or that of people you care about.

:o
I spent 25 years riding a postie motorbike, on becoming a postie bike rider, we had to do an advanced bike rider course, & every 2 years a 2 day refresher course. The over riding message on the course was just that, everyone else IS out to kill you.[ any bike rider will know what I mean] I believe every new driver must have a defensive driving course as part of the licence requirements. AND refresher courses . Bob.

scarry

17th February 2013, 08:40 AM

I believe every new driver must have a defensive driving course as part of the licence requirements. AND refresher courses . Bob.

X2

Until they do this, unfortunately, many preventable accidents will continue to occur.

Slunnie

17th February 2013, 09:17 AM

I think that big roll of toilet paper tells you which vehicle to have. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/503.jpg

blitz

17th February 2013, 10:19 AM

not sure about this thread - I'd happily own either - I currently own a 94 discovery which is becoming granddads axe due to the amount of mods I've done. If I owned a defa I would have done just as many mods to it as that is my nature.

Now if some one was going to give me a newer disco/defa/RR I would be eternally grateful :D

I will end up throwing the body on the disco and putting either a series or a county cab tray body on it, because I want a tray back ute and I like the look of the series (my first car was a series IIA) but will never go back to leaf springs.

And it will have a roll cage.

Landrover make different models because they realize that not everyone wants exactly the same vehicle, but all of them are very capable off road vehicles, some have more bling and some have more road orientation as that is the reality of consumerism.

My ultimate off road touring 4x4 isn't a landy it's an OKA but unless I win lotto I will never own one