strange front end wobbles.....help......

[DEFENDERZOOK]

lurch has had a strange front end wobble which i thought was a wheel balance problem.......
i have balanced the wheels a few times.....with no improvement.....then when refitting the wheels....i noticed that they were slightly off centre.....
but didnt think it was bad enough for the amount of wobble i was getting.....

every time i took the wheels off and refitted them...i would get the vibration at slightly different speeds.....they would start at 80kph....or 85....or 90....then fade out again as the speed went higher.....
then i noticed that the off side front swivel hub bearings were shot.....so i replaced them.....but i still had the vibrations/wobbles......

when its having a bad day.....the front left corner of the vehicle is actually shaking....which is visible from the drivers seat.....
and thats the side that DIDNT have play in the swivel bearings.......

this morning.....on my way to work.....i couldnt find any vibrations or wobbles at all.....no matter how hard i looked......


my question is......any idea what could cause them.....?
would the front radius arm bushes cause this......?
or the panhard rod bushes maybe......?


the problem has not been fixed......something may have just settled again for a while......but i dont know what would cause this.......and i cant afford to change all the bushes at the same time.....



any suggestions from previous experiences would be greatly appreciated......




03 fender tD5 2 inch spring lift running 33x12.5x15 bfg muddies.....



cheers....tony....

[Jock The Rock]

Maybe try your panhard rod bushes

When driving my new County back from WA I had a severe wobble. It happened at about 100km/h and was often triggered by hitting a bump or corrugated section. It was so severe that the first time it happened I thought I'd lost some wheel studs. The entire front corner of the car was visible bouncing

Next time it does it try and accelerate out of it to see it it goes away

It was weird, on the County I had those affects but when they were worn on dads Defender there were no effects other than slightly vague steering

[LowRanger]

Tony
It can quite easily be the bushes in the Panhard rod,less likely the radius arm bushes,unless they are completely flogged out.
The other thing to look for is,I notice you are running larger rubber,so I take it that you are running non genuine rims.Most of the aftermarket rims are NOT hub centric,and are LUG centric,ie located by the wheel studs.This allows the rim to be off centre sometimes,when the wheel nuts are done up,the wheel nuts need to be loosened off and done up evenly tightening the opposite nut a small amount at a time.Don't rely on the taper of the nut and the taper in the rim to align the rim,as most aftermarket rims are not made with the same taper as the large Land Rover wheel nuts.I usually put a pry bar or tyre lever under the tyre to lift the wheel to align the lower studs and work my way around the studs from there,rotating the wheel as I go and always lifting from the bottom,until the wheels are reasonably tight,then doing a final tighten.When I first fitted my Dynamic rims,and drove the vehicle,I thought the front wheel was going to fall off,I soon learned to fit them the way I do now,and don't have a problem.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Thanks for that.....that's exactly what I have noticed with the rims......I have tried to get them as centred as possible.......I'll try and refit them a bit better today if I get time......
Might have to try and make up some sort of locating ring to centre them on the hub before fitting the wheel nuts......

The pan hard rod bushes feel fine.......the radius arm bushes have seen better days......they are all still the factory bushes and have not been touched since leaving the factory......160,000 klm ago......

[DEFENDERZOOK]

@jock....the wobbles go away at about 95kph and upwards......which leads me to believe a wheel balance problem.....or the off centre wheel.....
I can also see the corner of the vehicle bouncing......


It sounds as though what you were experiencing may have been a steering damper or swivel hub preload.......because a jolt would set it off.....


I'll just keep looking till I find it.......it's gotta be something simple....and everyone else's experiences are always a great help and a guide to looking in the right direction.......

Cheers......

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I have this problem on my 2006 110 for just over a year now!

So far I've changed all front end and rear trailing arm bushes. I've also run a different set of wheels and tyres and replaced the steering damper (that was shot anyway).

My next point if attack will be the swivel per load and bearings.

R
J

Sent using Forum Runner

[LowRanger]

I have this problem on my 2006 110 for just over a year now!

So far I've changed all front end and rear trailing arm bushes. I've also run a different set of wheels and tyres and replaced the steering damper (that was shot anyway).

My next point if attack will be the swivel per load and bearings.

R
J

Sent using Forum Runner

Jon
Have you tried driving it with the front driveshaft removed?

[goingbush]

I keep rabbiting on about this but Have you made sure you have toe out and not toe in.

toe in (which is how most wheel alignment places set your Defender) will exaggerate any front end issues.

set the track rod adjustment to zero or if theres worn components up to as much as 1.5mm Toe OUT ,

ie front wheels point out ,

[isuzutoo-eh]

My County would hit a bump and have the front end shake like crazy, only way out of the shakes was a good hard turn or slow down to about 10km/h. After chasing bearings and bushes for a while it was the railko bush in the swivel, the bush had partially disintegrated. Oddly enough the preload didn't change perceptibly, there was still enough bush intact.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Jon
Have you tried driving it with the front driveshaft removed?

Yes, tried it with both front and rear removed (at different times obviously!!).

Sent using Forum Runner

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I keep rabbiting on about this but Have you made sure you have toe out and not toe in.

toe in (which is how most wheel alignment places set your Defender) will exaggerate any front end issues.

set the track rod adjustment to zero or if theres worn components up to as much as 1.5mm Toe OUT ,

ie front wheels point out ,

Is this something that would change / drift out over time? The reason I ask is that mine has never been adjusted and all bushes & ball joints are good.

Thx
J

Sent using Forum Runner

[DEFENDERZOOK]

It's been a while since I checked my alignment.....
Might whack the heads on and have a quick look while its on the hoist.....
Can't hurt....

[goingbush]

Is this something that would change / drift out over time? The reason I ask is that mine has never been adjusted and all bushes & ball joints are good.

Thx
J

Sent using Forum Runner

yes, as componentry wears and tolerances increase the front wheels will start to toe in , esp under power (same applies to any front wheel drive / constant 4wd vehicle) so you need to adjust for more toe-out over time .

wheel alingment places traditionally adjust them for TOE IN, for whatever reason they think Defenders are selecteable 4WD in which case toe-in is correct. I argued with the Local Trye place about this & they showed me their book which states 1mm TOW IN - thats just plain wrong,

its easy enough to check yourself with a pole, or piece of string.

[scanfor]

All of the above, but also check your front shockies. I had a similar issue for 12 months, felt like I was hanging onto a bag full of wallabies everytime I hit a bump at >80km/h on a slight bend - turned out to be the RH shock was buggered. Less than 12mths old, so it was one of the last things I checked, but kaputt nonetheless.

I changed out all the bushes etc. and although each thing I did helped a little bit, the problem was still there. Steering damper is a red-herring, it won't fix anything, but might mask it a little bit.

[mox]

I had a frustrating vibration problem about 3 years ago that took a long while to identify. With a set of secondhand BFG 235x85 MT's on tubeless 6.5 inch Wolf rims that I had run for a while. Actually these look like genuine ones except no Land Rover part numbers. Seems had been sourced via aftermarket, probably from same factory that supplies Land Rover. Anyway, one tyre kept going flat, so I got local tyre place to put a tube in it.

This rim had a hole for the smaller tubeless teat but they installed a tube with the larger approx 16 mm one. (Rough operators who have since gone out of business - another bloke there now.) Was balanced on dynamic balancer, which apparently only run at what would be a fairly low road speed. However, was significant vibration at 90-100 kph. Turned out it was because fat teat did not protrude much through hole and tube was pushed back from inside of rim around it. It seems that at high speed, this was distorting enough to throw wheel that was balanced at low speed out of balance.

Problem was cured by removing tube and boring out teat hole. Found out hard way it is best to also remove tyre first. Did not get all the slivers of metal out and subsequently had a puncture from one.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Had some spare time at work today and managed to put lurch up on the hoist......
Put the heads on to check the wheel alignment and found it had 2mm toe in.......so I've given 2mm toe out........to see if that makes a difference......


The front radius arm to diff bushes didn't look the best.....so I will probably start with overhauling the front arms.......these will allow the diff to dance side to side if worn......and will chew out the pan hard rod sooner or later......


I don't think the alignment made any difference to the wobble......but couldn't really get up to speed with the traffic on my way home......
Will take it for another run and see if there's any change.......

Oh.....also checked for any play in the wheel bearings and swivel bearings......and there isn't any at all.......that's a good thing I guess......

Cheers....

[g2landyman]

Hi double check ya panhard bushes my county did this for a while, I did the wheel balance and new tyre never fixed wasnt bad until one day all hell broke loose then found panhard bush under steering box had totaly failed it was a poly bush not very old but they dont like power steering oil, repalaced no more prob, so maybe its this, if even slight movement try that.
regards G2

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i tried to lever the pan hard rod and got absolutely no movement out of it.....

might just pull it out and have a physical look at the bushes....

[rick130]

So Tony, any progress ?

I've had some weird wobbles at times (that weren't alcohol induced :p) including.

Panhard rod bolt loose at the chassis end.

Dead drivers side shockie.
Hit a bump and off that corner would go as if you had no swivel pre-load or a dead steering damper.
It would do it cornering or in a straight line, didn't matter.

Re Don's suggested toe out figure, I've been running 2mm overall (1mm/side) toeout for years on the 130 and it drives nice and straight.

Years ago my old F100 would occasionally nearly throw me out the window under braking, the shake would be that violent.
I'd had multiple wheel balances, I'd checked the toe, etc.
It was the wheel balance in the finish.
Wheels with minimal backspace need everything nice and tight and balanced otherwise they amplify any small irregularity. I think the 15x8's I ran on that only had 70mm or so of backspace, so loads of offset which didn't help, and I'm guessing the tyre blokes may have only been doing a static balance rather than a dynamic on top of the static, but I'm only guessing there.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

The tyres are old and worn....I got them second hand so had no control over the wear pattern on them......which includes some scalloping.......

I have balanced them a few times but no success.......

There's no movement in the pan hard rod.....and I checked the bolts yesterday......they were tight on both ends......

I might throw in a set of shocks in it.......it should have +2 in the front but I was given standard length front and rear when I did up my suspension......
I have since replaced the rears with terra firma big bore +2 in the rear.....and just haven't got around to replacing the fronts yet.......

I suppose I should go and pull the shock out now and have a look at it......but it's just too hot......can't be bothered right now.......


I'll find the problem sooner or later......I'm gonna eliminate or confirm the wheels by refitting the standard wheels back on when I get a chance.......

[Bush65]

The tyres are old and worn....I got them second hand so had no control over the wear pattern on them......which includes some scalloping.......

I have balanced them a few times but no success.......

There's no movement in the pan hard rod.....and I checked the bolts yesterday......they were tight on both ends......

I might throw in a set of shocks in it.......it should have +2 in the front but I was given standard length front and rear when I did up my suspension......
I have since replaced the rears with terra firma big bore +2 in the rear.....and just haven't got around to replacing the fronts yet.......

I suppose I should go and pull the shock out now and have a look at it......but it's just too hot......can't be bothered right now.......


I'll find the problem sooner or later......I'm gonna eliminate or confirm the wheels by refitting the standard wheels back on when I get a chance.......
Scalloped tyres, particularly if they are muddies will cause vibrations, no matter if balanced. 'Square' tyres, such as occurs with bias ply tyres that have stood for a while will also shake - although you probably have radial tyres, some may have suffered some carcase problem.

I would try some other tyres, beg or borrow if you don't have enough spare.

[Bush65]

Sorry - double post

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Scalloped tyres will make a lot of noise and sound and feel like a wheel bearing is shot........
But I have a wheel balance problem.....and a wobble which is coming in at different speeds......so there's really no consistency.......
That's what's making me think it may be bushes.....as they may change position and do different things......

I do have the factory wheels here and I will swap them over if I get a bit of extra energy over the weekend.......and a bit of dry weather.......
Just to see what changes if anything.........



If I could see the wobble from outside the vehicle.....such as by driving along next to it when it's having a fit.......I may just be able to tell what it is straight away.......it's easy to pick dodgy shocks......or buckled rims......or a few other worn components.......
But from the drivers seat......well......can't really see too much......

[goingbush]

If I could see the wobble from outside the vehicle...........


gaffa tape your iphone / video camera to the bull bar :wasntme:

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Hey......don't laugh......you just gave me a great idea........

My mate has a go-pro.........might just have to borrow it for a little while.......plenty of places to mount it under a defender.......


Thanks.......

[Bush65]

Scalloped tyres will make a lot of noise and sound and feel like a wheel bearing is shot........
But I have a wheel balance problem.....and a wobble which is coming in at different speeds......so there's really no consistency.......
That's what's making me think it may be bushes.....as they may change position and do different things......

I do have the factory wheels here and I will swap them over if I get a bit of extra energy over the weekend.......and a bit of dry weather.......
Just to see what changes if anything.........



If I could see the wobble from outside the vehicle.....such as by driving along next to it when it's having a fit.......I may just be able to tell what it is straight away.......it's easy to pick dodgy shocks......or buckled rims......or a few other worn components.......
But from the drivers seat......well......can't really see too much......
I recently had a problem with muddies that scalloped alternate edge blocks (these blocks were narrower in the tyre pattern). At a particular speed (80 to 85 km/h) they were shaking the vehicle badly. I assume the frequency was related to the spacing of the scallops and also contributed to the wear rate of the scallops.

[rick130]

I recently had a problem with muddies that scalloped alternate edge blocks (these blocks were narrower in the tyre pattern). At a particular speed (80 to 85 km/h) they were shaking the vehicle badly. I assume the frequency was related to the spacing of the scallops and also contributed to the wear rate of the scallops.


That seems to be a pretty common wear pattern on MT's, it's what I usually end up with if I haven't rotated frequently enough.

Speaking of using an outside observer, years ago when I was in my late teens, Dad had a Jeep that had the front end take off at a certain speed on a particular bump. I think it had either 11R-15's or 31-10.5R-15's on heavily offset rims.

I stood on the side of the road to watch as he hit the bump at I think an indicated 35mph.

Both front wheels just started oscillating wildly as the tie rod bowed and wobbled and flexed up and down alarmingly. It was a pretty amazing thing to observe !
The old full size Jeep used a front mounted tie rod and IIRC it was a larger OD than Land Rover use in the 90/110/130.

Some angle iron tack welded along it's length cured it, (we didn't have any tube the right ID) then I added a steering damper.
Problem solved.

[onyamatey]

Ok here is my 10 cents worth.
By balancing your wheels on a static balancing machine (the same type as used in tyre workshops), all you have done is added lead weights around the circumference of the rim to mask and counter act the fact you have missing or worn rubber on your tread. Just because the machine gauges say 'zero, all good', that means jack s#*t, it just means the wheel centrifugally weighs the same when free spinning in a circle. To exaggerate my point, if Bridgestone made a completely square tyre to fit on a 16" round rim, you could also put that on a static balancing machine and weight that up to read zero too. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to drive smooth on the road afterall it's the black rubber on the outside circumference that contacts the road surface, not the lead weights on the rim.
If you are serious about balancing your wheels, try a dynamic balance, then I'm sure you will change your mind. The dynamic balance involves putting your perfectly static balanced wheel on a steel roller and running it up to full road speed to simulate what it's doing once the tread is contacting the road surface. By this point I'm sure your balanced wheels would be trying to jump off the roller. Deformities and imperfections in the tread where it contacts the road is crucial, this is why your wheels are dancing around. Once you get to a certain road speed and a bump is hit it generates a harmonic oscillating frequency that no amount of lead weights around your rim, or new shockers, or steering and suspension bushes can fix, the laws of physics make sure of that, you would be throwing good money after bad to start replacing things that aren't causing your problem.
The only time you should ever need to balance your wheels is when your tyres are brand new, because dynamically the outer circumference of the tread is perfect (except Chinese tyres) which will give a dynamically perfect ride and you are only static balancing the wheel to 'fine tune' the centrifugal weight distribution to make it perfectly balanced in all areas. If you had a big brake lockup and shredded a flat spot on the tyre, forget trying to static balance it, you are wasting time and money, you could put 200 grams of weight on the flat spot side of the tyre to make the static balancing machine say it's perfect, but as soon as that tyre contacts the road it's gonna howl and jump and shake and wobble etc because the circumferential tyre tread is no longer dynamically perfect. Get what I mean ?
A construction road that gets a lot of truck traffic is always corregated for the same reason, the truck tyres generate a harmonic frequency on the dirt surface that pounds it into ruts, you can't fix this problem either.

I am like yourself in some ways, I have also purchased second hand tyres off ebay. It's a risk because you could be buying someone elses rubbish tyres they removed for the exact same reason as you are having right now, but they will never tell you that in their ebay listing will they? I never balance mine because as mentioned, if the tread surface is second hand, damaged or unevenly worn you are wasting your time trying to static balance, if it's bad enough to feel through the steering on a steer tyre I will either shift it to the rear where it could be quite happy and cause no suspension vibrations, use it on a trailer or just scrap it as a bad mistake. Sometimes I get lucky and other times I don't. Sometimes one mans trash is another mans treasure, but other times another mans trash is exactly that.

If you are in Melbourne I'd be more than happy to swap a spare set of Defender rims of mine to your vehicle to prove there is nothing wrong with your bearings, shockers, steering damper, swivel pin preload, suspension bushes etc etc. And I'd be confident to put $100 on the table as a wager that says I'm right.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

I've got other wheels to try......just have to get out there and swap them over.....
But it's pouring with rain right now and I can't be stuffed.......



What you say makes sense.......and I'm just taking it all in and thinking......would different pressures affect at what speed the harmonic frequencies kick in and start causing the vibrations......due to the different flex in the tyre.........?

[DEFENDERZOOK]

ok...a bit of an update........

i have put the factory wheels and tyres back on.......and it hasnt made any difference.......

but what i did discover today is that under acceleration.....it doesnt wobble.....
it does it if im up to speed.....and am either coasting or on overdrive......
so by playing with the throttle....i can basically control the vibrations......

so im back to thinking the bushes are at fault.....?
i was also thinking the track rod might be flexing for some reason......although it should be engineered enough not to......


when i get the dollars together.....ill change out the front radius arm bushes.....


just thought id update this thread for those that may be interested......

[justinc]

I thought that you had already changed out the radius rod bushes tony, then I read back through and saw that you hadn't yet.

Most certainly these are the culprit, ESPECIALLY while mild cornering at speed. it can set off a huge vibe.

JC

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Which ones actually cause the problems.....
The four small ones on the diff end......?

[LowRanger]

Both the front and the rear bushes of the radius arms can set off an oscillation in the front end when they are worn.And they can wear out very quickly,especially if you use the vehicle offroad where the front end is flexing a lot.I can chew rubber bushes in under 1,000km :eek:
A simple test for the diff end bushes,is to put a jack under the radius arm at the diff and you can see the radius arm will normally twist in the mount and you can see where it has come unbonded around the crush tube.If the mounts are good then the radius arm doesn't normally twist very much in the mount.

[mudder110]

hi there i had exactly the same problem after fitting wrangler muddies
to my 98 110 near drove me mad guys from british offroad told to get a new wheel alignment and give it 5 degrees negative camber instant fix
good luck.

[460cixy]

hi there i had exactly the same problem after fitting wrangler muddies
to my 98 110 near drove me mad guys from british offroad told to get a new wheel alignment and give it 5 degrees negative camber instant fix
good luck.


That would be interesting

[DEFENDERZOOK]

How do you adjust camber on a fender.....?
You have to remove the swivel hub assembly and chamfer the mounting plate....or bend the diff housing.......

Do you know how they adjusted the camber......?
Only toe is adjustable.....camber and caster involve a bit of work.....




I've fitted the factory rubber back on and it's made no difference......still get the wobbles....
But I have noticed that the wobbles happen at speed in over drive or coasting.....under load they seem to go away.....
This is what made me think the bushes.....as under load they get pushed to one side and can't move as much......
When there is no load.....they start to jump around......a simple bump or just harmonics will get it happening.......


I'm not too worried about it other than its gonna prematurely wear out other components such as the steering box etc......


I'm more trying to understand HOW it all works and which bush is the culprit.....or is it a combination of bushes.....?


I thought it would have been the radius arm to out rigger bushes......allowing the whole diff assembly to move around....then under load they get pulled forward and dampen the movement......
But others with more experience on this model are saying the smaller bushes at the front are allowing the diff to have sideways movement.....which will cause the same results.....

Either way.....I need to change all six bushes......plus the ones on the back diff....
They are all the original bushes.....now ten years old.....and have done 160 000 kms........


If its quiet enough at work this week....I might be able to get them done......
Can't do the at home cos I need a press......otherwise....they are pretty simple to do......

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Oh....forgot to ask.....how did the camber affect cornering......?

It should corner a lot better now......

[Bush65]

How do you adjust camber on a fender.....?
.....
Offset swivel pins could be made, but is not going to give a large change.

[rick130]

Offset swivel pins could be made, but is not going to give a large change.

Offset/eccentric swivel cups are used in Patrols and Land Cruisers to change the camber and castor and it doesn't take much of a change to change the steering characteristics.

I'm guessing they've increased castor, not camber as IMO that would help the stability of the wheel.
The more castor an axle has the greater the straight line stability becomes at the expense of increased steering weight.

If the car has been lifted to the point of having zero castor, I can see the wheel wanting to possibly wobble and be very unstable just driving along.

[newhue]

This tow in and out stuff.

It was described to me that tow out is what a landy needs, as mentioned.
Because the Tie Rod connects behind the swivel hubs is why.
When the car is moving forward and has a tow out setting, the tyres straighten and pull on the tie rod. Trying to straighten it so to speak, or certainly keep it under load. This is correct for a landy's steering. And tow out should be 1 to 1.5, but can go higher with LR tolerances.

With tow in, as the wheels straighten in a forward motion, they push on the tie rod causing it to bow, thus can cause a wobble wobble vibration as the road surface varies.

What I'm calling the tie rod is the one that runs behind the diff.

I have found with mine upon a tyre rotation at 10K. Back to front, fronts in shed, shed fronts to back, all coded left and right; I have a new set of vibrations, direction pull, and some wobbles. So I get all running wheels balanced each rotation.

I used a main steam tyre fitter for a while trying to sort a wobble, over and over we did the balance to no avail. New tyres fixed it until first rotation.

I changed tyre fitter and no wobbles at all for 99.5% of the time
HOWEVER
There are bitumen road surfaces out there that cause the steering to pig root around for a bit. And that can even be a brand new road. I run 33" muds.

hope this helps in some way

[DEFENDERZOOK]

that all makes sense to me.....
i did have toe in......so i adjusted it and am now running toe out......
didnt make a difference.......i fitted the factory wheels and tyres back on and still no difference......

but i have discovered i can make the wobbles come and go by playing with the throttle.......so this tells me its not a balance problem as much......

wobbles and shakes due to balance are speed related.....so the throttle shouldnt affect them......

hence why ive settled on blaming the bushes......


cheers....

[oldie]

Been watching the posts to this thread for sometime wondering if my experience is relevant. Seems it is.

Have a MY2010 cab/chas with steel tray. At about 20k it developed a minor shake in the NSF. First thing was to check the balance as we had earlier done the Oodnadatta, Simpson, Birdsville and the roads were very ordinary and maybe had shaken off some lead. Balance was OK and still the skakes persisted.

The dealer suggested an alignment which was done. No better. And a wheel rotation and another balance. Still no better.

In fact the shakes were getting worse and could be induced about 70 kmph or going round a left hand curve.

Back to dealer and they suggested swivel pin pre load should be looked at which they did and it was adjusted. Slightly better for a little while and then after a few weeks it was just as bad, if not worse.

So back to the dealer. They checked the preload and it was crook again. So they pulled the thing apart and found the bearing/bearings had collapsed. Never had this problem they said. But no parts in Aus so a 2 week wait to get the truck back but thankfully all is still good now and we are up to 37 k.

So my message is setting the preload is no good if the bearings are shot.

Oldie

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Bearings had collapsed on the drivers side........coincidence I sit on that side.....?
I had what felt like a loose wheel bearing when I jacked it up to check....but when I had a look to see
what was actually moving....I saw the whole swivel assembly moving.....that was when I thought it might be time to adjust the preloads......

When I pulled the top pin out.....I realised what the problem was.......my swivel bearings had also collapsed.......so I fixed just that one side.......

The passenger side felt fine so I didn't bother to touch it at all......maybe I should have a look at that side as well......can't be too far behind......I guess.....


But I'm pretty sure the worn out bushes in the radius arms will have something to do with it..........and then possibly the swivel hub bearings.......

If only I had more dollars than bills........

[flagg]

Seems this may be common- I had it too. I had on numerous occasions been told it was 'normal' for an old LR to have wandering, shaking steering. This was by a supposed LR specialist. Needless to say I was not going to have a bar of that!

[DEFENDERZOOK]

No....it's not normal.......what it could be is a few different things all contributing a bit each to create the problem you're having.......

They may think it's not worth fixing cos the repairs are gonna cost more than the cars worth......
And they all have the same problem when all these items wear at this age of the vehicle........so they tell you it's normal.........

It can all be fixed........

[J.Lo]

I got the same sort of wobble too.

Whilst getting the tyres changed at Fourby's a few days ago I asked them to see if they could diagnose the problem. Turns out the radius arm bushes are shot.

I'll take the truck back to them soon to replace the bushes, and will probably do the pan bushes and put beefier springs in the front to level her out as the bull bar and winch seem to be dipping the nose.

Hopefully this solves the problem.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Sounds like you have exactly the same problem as I'm having........

If it is the same......you should be able to have some sort of control of it with the accelerator.......when it starts to shake...if you accelerate they should ease up or stop all together......
And then start up again if you back off.......

So by playing with the throttle you can control the shakes........

That's what I've found with mine.......

[bcj]

Had similar problem recently, 90 kmh death wobble (seemed to be speed related)- induced by potholes/ small bumps mainly on right hand corners ,felt like something wrong on left front. Replaced drop arm and drag link tie rod end as obvious wear, still had problem. No aparant wear on tie rods on track rod but I replaced them and that fixed my problem.

Brett

110 300 tdi

[schuy1]

If the "wobble can be controlled with the accelerator or only does it on hard surfaces, or goes away if you drop a wheel off the bitumen eg drive in the gravel, then it will be the swivel bearings. I had the same thing, started with a pothole hit collapsing a bearing, renewed the swivel bearings, STILL did it! Discovered, after a lot of invective and murmurings of boat anchors, the preload was not enough as per book. I just kept removing shims until it behaved. and they are Timken bearings too :o have done 15000 now and its still good.
Cheers Scott

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Had similar problem recently, 90 kmh death wobble (seemed to be speed related)- induced by potholes/ small bumps mainly on right hand corners ,felt like something wrong on left front. Replaced drop arm and drag link tie rod end as obvious wear, still had problem. No aparant wear on tie rods on track rod but I replaced them and that fixed my problem.

Brett

110 300 tdi

so the cure was the tie rod ends on the track rod.......?

cos im getting the something wrong on left front on right hand bends.....it almost feels as if im driving on a really buckled rim.......

[DEFENDERZOOK]

If the "wobble can be controlled with the accelerator or only does it on hard surfaces, or goes away if you drop a wheel off the bitumen eg drive in the gravel, then it will be the swivel bearings. I had the same thing, started with a pothole hit collapsing a bearing, renewed the swivel bearings, STILL did it! Discovered, after a lot of invective and murmurings of boat anchors, the preload was not enough as per book. I just kept removing shims until it behaved. and they are Timken bearings too :o have done 15000 now and its still good.
Cheers Scott


we used to always set the preload tighter than the book said to......i know its a no-no......but it used to help a lot......
almost felt like driving a different vehicle afterwards.....
but too much tension on those poor little bearings will drastically shorten their life......

that seems to be a cover for the actual problem......but not the cause of it.....

PS...i am running my preloads a bit tighter than the book says to........always have.....

[bcj]

Yeh, tie rod ends on track rod felt ok, check several times. Was just about to start changing bushes as next step but found slight movement in tie rod end on track rod one day when steering near lock to right, every other time I'd checked I had steering near centre - was barely detectable. Ended up a cheap easy fix.
I was at the stage I knew every corner & bump on the way to town that I had to drop to 80km for. This very small amount of play was just enough to start the wobble which seemed to be only at or above 90, I had to either power out of it or slow to below 80, vibration becoming quite sever sometimes when slowing to 80

Brett

110 300tdi

[schuy1]

we used to always set the preload tighter than the book said to......i know its a no-no......but it used to help a lot......
almost felt like driving a different vehicle afterwards.....
but too much tension on those poor little bearings will drastically shorten their life......

that seems to be a cover for the actual problem......but not the cause of it.....

PS...i am running my preloads a bit tighter than the book says to........always have.....

Yes I understand that having preload too tight will stuff the bearings. But the same will occur with underloading too, It is a fine line. I replaced all the front end bushes, tierods, shockies, steering shockie, balanced wheels, changed tyres,checked for bent housings, castor,toein, played with all the permutations of degrees in and out, Finally I spoke to BOR and they suggested the extra preload as they do all theirs like that, The factory settings are under. And voila! instant fix! :D Not saying yours is the same, just my symptoms were identical as you describe.
Cheers Scott

Ps too great a lift>2" will enhance the problem also,no ifs or buts.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Yes I understand that having preload too tight will stuff the bearings. But the same will occur with underloading too, It is a fine line. I replaced all the front end bushes, tierods, shockies, steering shockie, balanced wheels, changed tyres,checked for bent housings, castor,toein, played with all the permutations of degrees in and out, Finally I spoke to BOR and they suggested the extra preload as they do all theirs like that, The factory settings are under. And voila! instant fix! :D Not saying yours is the same, just my symptoms were identical as you describe.
Cheers Scott

Ps too great a lift>2" will enhance the problem also,no ifs or buts.


all im running is a 2 inch spring lift......which has probably sagged again.....so probably back to spec.........

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Yeh, tie rod ends on track rod felt ok, check several times. Was just about to start changing bushes as next step but found slight movement in tie rod end on track rod one day when steering near lock to right, every other time I'd checked I had steering near centre - was barely detectable. Ended up a cheap easy fix.
I was at the stage I knew every corner & bump on the way to town that I had to drop to 80km for. This very small amount of play was just enough to start the wobble which seemed to be only at or above 90, I had to either power out of it or slow to below 80, vibration becoming quite sever sometimes when slowing to 80

Brett

110 300tdi


ill throw him up on the hoist on monday and have a good look at my tie rods again.....
might even just replace them........its gotta be something simple like this.......and its getting worse.......so somethings gonna have to fail soon.....
then itll be obvious........

[schuy1]

ahh yeah <2 will unlikely play havock :D Another thoiught maybe the actual bearings are undersized and are therefore unable to provide correct damping? Although they may show as correct preloading under static test. If something fails under the wobbles just hope its not a steering component in a 90 degree left hander on the range.....................................:)

[DEFENDERZOOK]

what do you mean by undersized........?

[schuy1]

undersized as in not to original specs sizing. It is rare but not unknown to ocur . the common part is the race tends to be too narrow and sits too deep into the housing thereby affecting loadings. Haveing said that in all the time I have been replacing bearings only ever saw it twice. and both times with noname bearings.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

it couldnt be that........i only changed the drivers side.......and that wasnt the cause.....
the passenger side still feels fine......so i didnt touch it.......the drivers side would have been fin too if i ever bothered to add some lube in the last ten years......
it just dried out and chewed itself up......

if it was the left side.....then it would have done it right from the start.....

i know my radius arm bushes are a bit chopped out.....but I'm not 100% convinced they are the problem....

either way they need to be done.....so ill do one thing at a time to see which component makes a difference and which doesn't.....

gotta double check the tie rods.......but im not gonna touch anything till next week.....im having a day off.......

got a fish tank to set up.......hopefully starting this weekend.......and for the next two weeks......

i will post up progress and results on this thread till i find the problem......

[JDNSW]

ill throw him up on the hoist on monday and have a good look at my tie rods again.....
might even just replace them........its gotta be something simple like this.......and its getting worse.......so somethings gonna have to fail soon.....
then itll be obvious........

Worth noting that, depending on the type of hoist (chassis or axle) with it on a hoist, the drag link is likely to be at a different angle to when it is on the road - the ball joints can, under these conditions, appear tight but still have free play when in its normal running position.

John

[DEFENDERZOOK]

I'll jack it up under the diff housing.....this will leave all the suspension loaded up.....
Except for the radius arms........

[DEFENDERZOOK]

couldnt fault the tie rods at all......only the pitman arm ball joint may be a little loose.....but definitely no play anywhere.......


im gonna try and mount a go pro under there somewhere.......and take some video of whats wobbling.......hopefully.....

should be fun.....and interesting......not sure if anyone here has done this before or not.......

[J.Lo]

Looks like my wobbles are gone for now.

Replaced the tyres and whilst at it had the toe set out rather than in. Seems to have worked and have been driving at speed for long distances without any hint of wobble.

Old tyres where crap, and the alignment was certainly toed in.

Still have loose radius arm and pan hard bushes, and the front springs aren't holding the nose up against the bulbar and winch which will be addressed this week with a 50mm lift.

If your tyres are ok then for the sake of less than $100 to check the alignment you could save yourself a lot of hassle and money.

Hope this helps whoever else has this problem.

[schuy1]

I still think it will be related to your swivel bearings........................................:) May be wrong................... have been b4 I think or was I? :D
Hope you find it soon,cause it puts a lot of stress on bushs and other components.
Cheers Scott