Starting Woes - 2004 TD5

[Leyland1980]

My 2004 TD5 (170000km) has recently started to be a little slow on the uptake and has to be cranked a few times to start up. Once running she is absolutely fine.


I used a friends hawkeye recently and it flagged 2 CPS faults and a problem in injector 2 circuit (oil in loom?). I have therefore renewed the CPS and put some time and effort into getting rid of the oil at the red plug.

I have also tested the fuel pump renewed filter etc.

I think the next step is to open up the ECU and see if there is oil inside (spray liberally with contact cleaner if found?).

Any advice or suggestions greatfully received.

Cheers

John

[dennisS1]

Have you replaced the injector loom?
Test the glow plugs they do bugger all, but can make starting just a bit better. If you have not replaced them all will be faulty.
After replacing the injector loom I removed the seal around the plug to the ECU so oil can run out and contact cleaned this 10 times over 6 months to no more oil showed up.
Dennis

[robbotd5]

It could also be crook injector copper washers letting combustion gasses into the fuel system. You can hear the pump wooshing and gurgling from the cavitated fuel. Hence the hard to start issue.
Regards
Robbo

[Leyland1980]

Injector loom replacement is on the list, may be to do tonight, shouldn't take too long right?

cover off

harness out and new then in

new cover gasket

cover back on

Job done - maybe an hour?

Is there any easy way to test the injector washers?

[jimr1]

Hi mate , A common problem with the td5 is the injector loom under the rocker cover , oil gets into them and they misfire . It's an easy fix , remove rocker cover unclip plugs off injectors , unplug main loom from front of head ,replace with new , plus a new rocker cover gaskit . Put a smear of selastic on back of head under gaskit . Klean plug going to ECU job done good luck jimr1 ..

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Injector loom replacement is on the list, may be to do tonight, shouldn't take too long right?

cover off

harness out and new then in

new cover gasket

cover back on

Job done - maybe an hour?

Is there any easy way to test the injector washers?

Make sure you replace the right loom! It's not te bit under the rocker cover you need to change, its the bit that plugs into he head and the ecu... More than an hour!!!

Agree though, replacing the loom under the cover is easy & quick, but I'd be very surprised if that's at fault.

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[robbotd5]

Sorry, no easy way to test the injector washers. If they have never been done then it would be a good idea to replace them along with the O rings. Only use genuine parts. Some members see these items along with the injector loom as service items. By that I mean they have to be replaced at some stage and I agree. Not an expensive job either.
Regards
Robbo

[jimr1]

ooops hi mate , read you post , wrote my reply tapped onto keyboard , by then you had put your 2nd post ahead of mine . At least we're on the same wave length . As you say 170 000ks it won't do any harm replacing the injector loom . Also check the wireing loom under the head running along the block , those wirescan wear thrugh due to vibration , check the blind side . Ihope it works out ok for you .jimr1

[Leyland1980]

Ok so whilst I think that my problems are to do with injector seals and washers ( the oil level seems to have gone up) I am beginning to get nervous about fuel pump.

What are average life spans?

Do they reduce in efficiency be fore failing or just die?

Do they get noisey before they die?

Would I notice performance issues once started?

Cheers

John

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Ok so whilst I think that my problems are to do with injector seals and washers ( the oil level seems to have gone up) I am beginning to get nervous about fuel pump.

What are average life spans?

Do they reduce in efficiency be fore failing or just die?

Do they get noisey before they die?

Would I notice performance issues once started?

Cheers

John

In my experience they start to get noisy before they die.

Having said that, they doe last forever if you dont keep the tank almost empty.

(Broad brush stroke coming up)... Farmers Defers in the UK are normally run with next to no fuel in the tank... They go through pumps pretty quickly. Those that run normally, ie empty the tank and then fill it right back up again dont normally have any problems with pumps.

J

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[Leyland1980]

Ok so scary time in the garage last night, my firt real time inside the heart!

I changed the injector harness and the injector o-rings and washers (some wear and cracking but looked pretty sound).

I also checked inside the ECU for oil (non present).

Following an oil change (these seem to be having to happen every 2000km at the moment) she started fine much to my relief! however this morning it seems like there has been no improvement.

I suspect that this is a fueling issue as once started there are no performance issues, as I would expect if it were to do with electrics.

I also believe that the lift pump is probably ok.

Might air be getting in somewhere else? any likely places or am I completely off the mark?

Might have to give up and hand over to the pros soon!

[Leyland1980]

Lots of forum trawling this morning is now making me think FPR might be at fault.

It is dirty in this area (leaking) and the starter motor some times fails to turn but you can hear the solonoid click (fuel damage).

would a failing FPR cause starting problems.

The internet is a dangerous place! I am glad I am not ill as I am sure I would be makiong all manner of crazy diagnoses!

[Yorkshire_Jon]

FPR? Bloody abbreviations... No idea what that is!!!

However, one thought did spring to mind:
If you turn the ignition on so all the lights on the dash come on, can you here the fuel pump? (I hope so!)...

Next, listen to that hum from the fuel pump for 30s... It should be making a constant whirring sound; is it a constant hum or is it gurgling at all?

If its gurgling and making funny noises then thats your problem. Somehow, somewhere its sucking air back into the lines and then your trying to start with fresh air.

If its a constant hum, assume the pump is fine and thus fuel pressure to the injectors will also be fine.


R
J

[Yorkshire_Jon]

...I used a friends hawkeye recently and it flagged 2 CPS faults and a problem in injector 2 circuit (oil in loom?). I have therefore renewed the CPS and put some time and effort into getting rid of the oil at the red plug...


John,
What is the CPS that you have replaced?

Did you clear the fault log, go for a drive and re-log? Is the injector 2 error the very thing you need to be focussing on? If its dead (unlikely) then starting a 5 pot block on 4 will probably delay starting speed.

When you had the rocker cover off, did you make a note of each of the injector codes and compare those to the codes recorded in the ECU? They really need to match.

R
J

[Leyland1980]

FPR - Fuel Pressure Regulator
CPS - Crank Position Sensor

Yes faults cleared and then not re logged after a few runs.

Given the fuel around the FPR and the fact that the starter sometime just clicks with out turning over this is my current focus area. New FPR now ordered and will go on over the weekend.


I wasn't able to log all the injector codes etc as the Hawkeye I had access to is on its way overland to the UK now! but I am pretty sure that the injector 2 fault was oil in loom, which seams to be ok now.

Am I right in thinking that if there was an electrical or individual injector fault it would run badly?

I think that the fuel pump sounds OK but perhaps not perfect making me think that IT is ok but it is getting air from somewhere else (FPR).

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Here's my thought...


Starter motor clutch solenoid is just about dead.

When it clicks there is too much dust and crap in there to allow the contacts to pull together and allow the current to flow.

I suspect when it does turn its only being turned by a fraction of the current it really needs to turn. This will induce heat build up due to the high resistance in the starter solenoid and reduce starting ability due to lack of current flow.

A leaky fuel system may or may not be a contributing factor.

The good news is the solenoid repair kits are readily available on eBay for about $50.

Bad news is its a PITA to get the starter off and on again to allow access to change the bits.

Even if this isn't the cause of your problem, you need to do it to get the starter turning reliably, before you are left stranded.

R
J

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[Leyland1980]

Even if this isn't the cause of your problem, you need to do it to get the starter turning reliably, before you are left stranded.



Liberal dose of contact cleaner?

[OffTrack]

Here's my thought...


Starter motor clutch solenoid is just about dead.

When it clicks there is too much dust and crap in there to allow the contacts to pull together and allow the current to flow.

I suspect when it does turn its only being turned by a fraction of the current it really needs to turn. This will induce heat build up due to the high resistance in the starter solenoid and reduce starting ability due to lack of current flow.

A leaky fuel system may or may not be a contributing factor.

The good news is the solenoid repair kits are readily available on eBay for about $50.

Bad news is its a PITA to get the starter off and on again to allow access to change the bits.

Even if this isn't the cause of your problem, you need to do it to get the starter turning reliably, before you are left stranded.

R
J

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Before pulling the starter, remove the push-on connector on the starter solenoid and give the connector and terminal a clean. It's also worth cleaning the battery earth terminal too. I had the non-start click happening on my D2 Td5 and the terminal clean got the engine running again. I've since replaced the solenoid for peace of mind, although it wasn't strictly necessary.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Liberal dose of contact cleaner?

Won't work. Unless an external cable is loose you need to drop the starter motor and pull it apart to replace the solenoid contacts.

Prepare for lots of swearing:):)

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[dennisS1]

I agree with the starter contact replacement, Mine at 220K where stuffed, and the fuel pressure regulator seam to fail at the 170k point, as for fuel pump mine never changed sound until about 4 hours before it fail to pump still made a noise just no fuel pressure 250K, As I stated before test your glow plugs all of mine where faulty. As for the injector loom I do not believe you need to change the loom from engine to ECU. Changing the loom under the cover stops the oil from entering the main loom (until it fails again) If you keep cleaning away the oil at the ECU plug say every 5K it comes clean.
Dennis

[Leyland1980]

Solenoid refurb on the cards first thing sat!

[Leyland1980]

Thanks everyone for advice.

Have managed to sort this now (I think). Also renewed a few things that didn't actually need replaceing but I am sure she will be better for it.

The copper ring on the solenoid looked like it was made of cotton wool!

I was also able to prove that it is possible to renew contacts and plunger wiith the starte rinsitu as after refitting it I found that the bolts on the new contact were not longenough for the various conections required!

Thanks again until next time.

[jimr1]

:)Hi John , I'm pleased that you've sorted out you'r problems , good luck , jimr1 :D ..