Australias Oldest Land Rover

[ramblingboy42]

No, I dont have it or know where it is, hence this thread. It would be interesting to find out who has it....authenticated of course and even a list of perhaps the ten oldest in Australia.....or has this already been done?

[UncleHo]

One of the oldest is owned by an a gentleman in Sydney a 49 model but I believe that there is one older that was a private import into WA also a 49 model (older by Chassis Number)

[Killer]

Isn't there a prototype floating around WA somewhere?

Cheers, Mick.

[bobslandies]

Isn't there a prototype floating around WA somewhere?

Cheers, Mick.

Yes, that is Pre-Production L48 (left hand drive) that came from Argentina via the UK to WA.

R860004 is in WA - along with R860130.
Some other early imports to Victoria appear to have been lost (R860005, R860026, R860103)
R860136, 137, 138*, 139*, 164*, 165 came to Sydney as the first batch - arriving from November/December 1948 and those marked * still exist. I have a lot of R860137. R860138 was the Grenville Motors demonstrator vehicle.

A number of others up to the 1000th vehicle produced (that were imported into Australia) still exist and many have been completely restored or refurbished mechanically, retaining their aged look. Some have been featured on AULRO.

Bob

[gromit]

The Father-in-Law owned a '48 many years ago but he doesn't have any details of the chassis number.
It had a sluice box on the back and spent a lot of time with the back end in the Goulburn sluicing for gold.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/450.jpg




Colin

[ramblingboy42]

great photo Gromit, if thats a '48 it would qualify as the oldest perhaps....has it disappeared?

[bobslandies]

Great photo Colin.

It would be nice to see more vehicles at Shows with the equipment they were fitted with rather than being totally reconditioned to factory specs and finish (or better:wasntme:)

Bob

[Landy Smurf]

when mine is done i am putting a pto and running something off the back but atm the only thing i have is a corn crusher

[gromit]

great photo Gromit, if thats a '48 it would qualify as the oldest perhaps....has it disappeared?

Last the Father-in-Law saw of it was in the Howqua river above Jamieson.

Back then it was just a working vehicle, he always knew it was a early one but it wasn't worth anything.
I have a couple of other pictures somewhere, one with a hardtop fitted.



Colin

[gromit]

Great photo Colin.

It would be nice to see more vehicles at Shows with the equipment they were fitted with rather than being totally reconditioned to factory specs and finish (or better:wasntme:)

Bob

Much the comment I got when I took my '56 with the home made welder to Cooma.
Made safe but unrestored. Lots of original owner mods but left as it was when it was a working vehicle.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/159944-1956-series-1-pto-welder-home-made.html


Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Father-in-Law owned a '48 many years ago but he doesn't have any details of the chassis number.
It had a sluice box on the back and spent a lot of time with the back end in the Goulburn sluicing for gold.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/450.jpg

ColinHi Colin

If that is the vehicle there are a lot of aspects that date it later than 1948. The deep bronze green colour is no earlier than 1949, the curved hood bows and removable tow plate would make it 1950.

Sorry if this info isn't what you wanted to hear.

Diana

[gromit]

Hi Colin

If that is the vehicle there are a lot of aspects that date it later than 1948. The deep bronze green colour is no earlier than 1949, the curved hood bows and removable tow plate would make it 1950.

Sorry if this info isn't what you wanted to hear.

Diana

Doesn't bother me Diana.

FIL claims its a '48. Lots of bits were added from other vehicles over the years he owned it.
I saw somewhere that someone had a list of all the Australian '48 Land Rovers including the Rego details, just can't remember where I saw it. Rego is clear in one of the pictures.


Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Mike, 260AC has compiled a list of all Aussie 1948s with the Rego numbers for the Vic vehicles. A number of us have various other lists including one which was found in a workshop manual previously owned by a Victorian workshop. It included details of Vic vehicles and included one from Nareen Malcolm Frazer's property.

I'll see if I can track it down (that network drive is offline today), it may have your father in-laws details if he was the original owner.

[bobslandies]

Doesn't bother me Diana.

FIL claims its a '48. Lots of bits were added from other vehicles over the years he owned it.
I saw somewhere that someone had a list of all the Australian '48 Land Rovers including the Rego details, just can't remember where I saw it. Rego is clear in one of the pictures.


Colin

Hi Colin,

I can refer to the paper copies:D:D :D - it's never offline:wasntme:
What was the rego no? We might be lucky.

Bob

[gromit]

Hi Colin,

I can refer to the paper copies:D:D :D - it's never offline:wasntme:
What was the rego no? We might be lucky.

Bob

Bob,
Rego documents stated '48.
Rego was NV 305 (as far as I can see in the photo) but the FIL wasn't the first owner. I'll phone him and confirm the rego.

There is every possibility he made the hood bows & tow hitch if they are incorrect.


Colin

[Cobber]

Great photo Colin.

It would be nice to see more vehicles at Shows with the equipment they were fitted with rather than being totally reconditioned to factory specs and finish (or better:wasntme:)I'm with you on this one, and that's not limited to Land Rovers :BigThumb: I'd also like to see more 'sympathetically restored' vehicles too, instead of taking them back to showroom condition - although I do understand why folks do it :) As far as I'm concerned, especially with a vehicle like a Land Rover, once you start bashing out it's dents and creases, you are bashing away it's history, and any stories it may have to tell :)

[bobslandies]

Hi Colin

If that is the vehicle there are a lot of aspects that date it later than 1948. The deep bronze green colour is no earlier than 1949, the curved hood bows and removable tow plate would make it 1950.

Sorry if this info isn't what you wanted to hear.

Diana

Does not look like a removable tow plate / draw bar - the webs slightly inboard of the towplate ends that go up inside the chassis rails are visible.

The removable draw bar was introduced at vehicle 06103841 (3841st 1950 model vehicle) and the curved hood bows were introduced at vehicle 06105463. If you have a good photo of the rear you may see the vertical webs clearer and the welded-on draw bar has ten holes, the later removable one has eight holes.

Bob

[bobslandies]

Bob,
Rego documents stated '48.
Rego was NV 305 (as far as I can see in the photo) but the FIL wasn't the first owner. I'll phone him and confirm the rego.

There is every possibility he made the hood bows & tow hitch if they are incorrect.


Colin

The NV prefix could easily make it a 1948 as that sequence was in use early/mid 1949; certainly included NF, NS in 1949; O- P- R- S- in 1950.

Where's an expert on Vic Registrations, other than Wikipedia:
Vehicle registration plates of Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Australia#General_S eries)

"In 1939 Victoria switched to a 2-letter, 3-number scheme (AA-000 to ZZ-999)"


Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Does not look like a removable tow plate / draw bar - the webs slightly inboard of the towplate ends that go up inside the chassis rails are visible.

The removable draw bar was introduced at vehicle 06103841 (3841st 1950 model vehicle) and the curved hood bows were introduced at vehicle 06105463. If you have a good photo of the rear you may see the vertical webs clearer and the welded-on draw bar has ten holes, the later removable one has eight holes.

BobAnd the DBG colour?

[gromit]

Have just come off the phone from the FIL.
DBG is courtesy of Dulux and a straw broom, interior was still light green.
First owner was a sawmill, not sure where. It was quite bashed around when he got it. It was registered when he got it but he wasn't sure if it was registered when in use by the sawmill.
Vehicle purchased from ULR, date uncertain.
The Owners Document stated 1948.

Drawbar welded onto the chassis.
Hoodbows modified both accidentally & on purpose over the years.

The only other clues he could give me were :-
No brake adjusters, when the pedal touched the floor it was time to re-line.
Headlamps (behind the grille) had plain glass.
Split rims (but I guess these were optional).
He was pretty sure the swivel hubs had taper rollers top & bottom, but it's a long time ago now.

When using the sluicebox the car was driven into the Goulburn with the doors removed (the water flowed in one door and out the other).

Any other questions let me know and I'll ask him.



Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Probably the real thing then, wish we knew where it is now!

This is an extract from the page of Vic vehicles from the workshop manual including the vehicles up to 1950 models however I feel the engine and chassis numbers may be reversed because of the 866 engine numbers..

Name. Address Chassis. Engine. Regd. Delivery


L.E.W. Carty “Brisbane Hill,” R862611 R862351 HB 945. 26/5/49
Hamilton

H.D. Young “Murroh” R864257 R866938 NS 248 14/6/49
Hamilton.

T.R.G. McDonald Cavendish R865608 R8665594 NF 270 27/7/49

Thomas & Taylor P/L “Warrayure” R865863 R8665251 NF 814 28/8/49
Hamilton

C.H. Hickford Glenthompson R864519 R8663941 NF 235 27/6/49

H.D. Moodie “Lornefield” R865042 R8665224 NF 270 5/8/49
Cransdale

S.W. Falkenberg “Mepunga” R865261 R866500 NF 835 9/9/49
Wannon

C.G. Hurray “Wondo” R867984 R8667850 NF 861 7/10/49
Dunkeld

J.R. Ross “Corea” 06100909 06100825 OE 184 8/10/49
Sth. Dunkeld

H. Morris Portland Rd., 8667944 8667856 N/K 12/11/49
Hamilton

E.W. Forbes Glenthompson 06100690 06100643 OE 150 19/11/49

I.O. Gaze “Highlands,” 06100747 06100620 OL 471 21/11/49
Coleraine

R. Lawrence. Dunkeld. R867803 R8667881 OL 912 22/11/49

[Lotz-A-Landies]

These are the 48s dispatched to Regents from the UK Dispatch books.

Chassis Nº Engine Nº Desp in Desp out To
R860005 860022? 23/07/48 17/08/48 Regent Motors, Melb
R860026 ++++++ 20/08/48 02/09/48 as above
R860984 ++++++ 03/12/48 07/01/49 Regent Motors, Melb
R860985 ++++++ 06/12/48 07/01/49 Regent Motors, Melb
R860986 ++++++ 30/11/48 07/01/49 as above
R860987 860705 29/11/48 07/01/49 as above
R860988 ++++++ 03/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R860989 ++++++ 26/11/48 07/01/49 as above
R860997 860453 02/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R860998 ++++++ 08/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R860999 ++++++ 01/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861000 ++++++ 01/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861001 ++++++ 02/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861002 ++++++ 08/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861003 ++++++ 26/11/48 07/01/49 as above
R861004 ++++++ 09/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861005 ++++++ 03/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861013 ++++++ 14/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861014 ++++++ 10/12/48 07/01/49 as above
R861489 ++++++ 29/12/48 21/02/49 Regent Motors, Melb
R861490 ++++++ 17/12/48 21/02/49 as above
R861491 861238 21/12/48 21/02/49 as above
R861492 ++++++ 17/12/48 21/02/49 as above
R861493 ++++++ 30/12/48 21/02/49 as above
R861494 ++++++ 17/12/48 21/02/49 as above

[bobslandies]

Hi Colin,

Ask your FIL if:

1. The brake fluid reservoir was on the firewall inside the engine compartment or under the driver's seat with access through the flap after removing the seat base. (Puts it under R861000).

2. The firewall was of a fabricated design (all flat folded sheet metal) in that the area of the footwells was very square or was the lower section over the transmission/bellhousing area pressed in one curved piece. Was the gear stick mounted on the transmission tunnel or directly on the gearbox top? (Puts it under R861500).

3. The rear view mirror was mounted on a bolt sticking out of the upper end of the vertical tube frame or was it mounted on a triangular plate welded adjacent to the door top hinge about half way up the frame on the driver's side? Was there a rubber seal screwed to the bottom of the windscreen frame? (Again puts it under R861500)

4. Ask him does he remember anyone telling him that the differential ratio for the vehicle was different to other 1948, etc vehicles. (The first 1300 or so had a ratio of 4.88:1 - all subsequent vehicles up to Series 3 were 4.7:1.)The hydrostatic (self-adjusting) brakes ran through until the end of 1949 vehicle production so they don't help.

That might narrow it down a bit;)

Bob

[bobslandies]

Also courtesy of Mike's (260AC) research:

Post R861500 1948 model vehicles to Regent Motors around February/March 1949:

R861509, 10, 11, 12
R862350 (NG183), 51 (HB945), 52, 53, 54
R862566
R862991, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96

There is also the possibility that additional vehicles will be added to this list when some (at the time of this compilation) additional records in the UK become available.

Bob

[gromit]

Probably the real thing then, wish we knew where it is now!



He sold it on and the last he saw of it was stuck in the bed of the Howqua above Jamieson. Apparently you had to go through a few properties to get to where it was so it could still be a feature in the river.


Colin

[gromit]

Hi Colin,

Ask your FIL if:

1. The brake fluid reservoir was on the firewall inside the engine compartment or under the driver's seat with access through the flap after removing the seat base. (Puts it under R861000).

2. The firewall was of a fabricated design (all flat folded sheet metal) in that the area of the footwells was very square or was the lower section over the transmission/bellhousing area pressed in one curved piece. Was the gear stick mounted on the transmission tunnel or directly on the gearbox top? (Puts it under R861500).

3. The rear view mirror was mounted on a bolt sticking out of the upper end of the vertical tube frame or was it mounted on a triangular plate welded adjacent to the door top hinge about half way up the frame on the driver's side? Was there a rubber seal screwed to the bottom of the windscreen frame? (Again puts it under R861500)

4. Ask him does he remember anyone telling him that the differential ratio for the vehicle was different to other 1948, etc vehicles. (The first 1300 or so had a ratio of 4.88:1 - all subsequent vehicles up to Series 3 were 4.7:1.)The hydrostatic (self-adjusting) brakes ran through until the end of 1949 vehicle production so they don't help.

That might narrow it down a bit;)

Bob

Bob

I'll speak to him later today.
It was a long time ago he owned it and he was struggling to remember much about it.
He can't remember when he purchased it but we're guessing mid to late 60's. It was bashed around by the sawmill hence he painted it with some green house paint he had lying around.

He tells stories of going up over the Black Spur where it was struggling so much he had it in first low, he would set the hand throttle, fold the drivers door back then hop out and check his load on the vehicle while it was moving.
The other picture I've found shows a fair bit of panel damage


Colin

[wrinklearthur]

I can't rave on about this until I can get evidence / photo's, but I do remember the Les Wells 80" didn't have 'D' lights, It had little round lights with red lenses, set into about where the 'D' lights are situated, those tail lights had a similar body to the front side lights.

The top was modified with a sheet of tin plate riveted to a canvas bow making a truck cab.
On the tub there were two brass staples screwed to the side that would have taken the leather straps to tie down the canvas sides.

The door latch lever was vertical through a slot in the rear part of the capping, a pain, because the door would open if you caught your sleeve on it.

He did have the brakes modified to take a pendulum pedal and master cylinder from a early Holden, so that suggests the early Land Rover brakes were problematic.

Another mod he did was cut the bottom half of the petrol tank off, as Les reckoned that it was too low and used to get caught going over logs.

Besides those parts made from brass that I had already mentioned in other postings, I will keep onto the differences for you.

The main difference was that Land Rover badge, it was cast brass and shaped like a folded ribbon, are there any photo's of a similar badge about?
.

[gromit]

I just spoke with the FIL and he cannot remember :-
The brake reservoir location
Firewall details
Rear view mirror location
Windscreen seal
Diff ratio

He thinks the gearstick was mounted to the gearbox but again, not completely sure.

Confirmed the last sighting. I was incorrect it wasn't actually in the Howqua, the person he sold it to had a property up towards Howqua and was using it for ploughing.

The taillights were not the originals.
The drawbar was lop-sided where it had been mistreated by the sawmill.
He had to strengthen the firewall to stop a nasty steering shimmy (I think this was a common mod).

He remembers some black & white photos and will have a look to see if he still has them.


Colin

[wrinklearthur]

(The first 1300 or so had a ratio of 4.88:1 - all subsequent vehicles up to Series 3 were 4.7:1.)
I would have thought that the 4.88:1 were a bit more common than that, the reason to change them over was to get a little more top end speed and you needed to check the pinion length before changing as the length of the prop shafts would be too short.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I would have thought that the 4.88:1 were a bit more common than that, the reason to change them over was to get a little more top end speed and you needed to check the pinion length before changing as the length of the prop shafts would too short.
.Hi Arthur

The first of the 4.7:1 diffs also had the same pinion length as the 4.88:1 diffs, only changing to the short nose pinion at about 3000 vehicles into 1950*. If you swapped the 4.88 diffs to the 4.7 long nose diffs, you didn't need to swap the prop shaft. Some people actually confuse the long nose to equate to the 4.88 ratio which is incorrect.

Diana

* The long nose diff was changed to short nose at 06106001..

[korg20000bc]

There's a pretty early one for sale on gumtree now:
PRICE REDUCED!!! 1949 Land Rover (4X4) Other | Cars, Vans & Utes | Gumtree Australia Glenorchy Area - Claremont (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/claremont/cars-vans-utes/price-reduced-1949-land-rover-4x4-other/1012602619)

A 1949 80inch Land Rover in Very Good Restored condition. Ring pull transfer case, original split rims with 1600 cc motor.

Chassis No. 8665270
Engine No. 865434
Gear Box No. 865420
Front Axle No. 865296
Rear Axle No. 865063

[gromit]

Heres a picture of the Father-in-Law's 80" from the front/side.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/332.jpg



He's racking his brains trying to remember anything else about it.
My wife has found one more photo from the front, turns out he owned it from the early 60's from the Kodacolor date on the back of the prints.

No opening vent under the windscreen but I think this may have been optional on the 80" ?


Any possibility of moving this thread into the Series 1 section (that way I'll have a chance of finding it in the future).


Colin

[bobslandies]

Heres a picture of the Father-in-Law's 80" from the front/side.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/332.jpg



He's racking his brains trying to remember anything else about it.
My wife has found one more photo from the front, turns out he owned it from the early 60's from the Kodacolor date on the back of the prints.

No opening vent under the windscreen but I think this may have been optional on the 80" ?

Yes, the opening vent became pretty much standard on Export vehicles in 1949.

Any possibility of moving this thread into the Series 1 section (that way I'll have a chance of finding it in the future).


Colin

The windscreen frame is after approximately vehicle R861500 as it has the lower mirror bracket at the hinge area and also the trafficator blocks (introduced at about R860750) that were added towards the top of the vertical cover plates of the windscreen.

You can also see the passenger's side door top has been repaired where the "wire" hinge failed. Kits were available or people strengthened the frame with bolted on plates.

You can also see it is a "Fishplate" chassis where the bumper bar is held on with eight bolts (four per side) on chassis extensions as opposed to later vehicles held on by two per side through the front ends of the chassis rails.

Also appears to have the two strap loops on the tub sides to hold the hood down.

Bob

[bobslandies]

I can't rave on about this until I can get evidence / photo's, but I do remember the Les Wells 80" didn't have 'D' lights, It had little round lights with red lenses, set into about where the 'D' lights are situated, those tail lights had a similar body to the front side lights.

You have stumped me on that one! Photos of Pe-Production vehicles that I have seen have the D-lights fitted.

Where are you Mike - maybe you can throw some light on this!

The top was modified with a sheet of tin plate riveted to a canvas bow making a truck cab.
On the tub there were two brass staples screwed to the side that would have taken the leather straps to tie down the canvas sides.

These were still being fitted into the early 1949 production vehicles.

The door latch lever was vertical through a slot in the rear part of the capping, a pain, because the door would open if you caught your sleeve on it.

As per Pre-Production vehicles

He did have the brakes modified to take a pendulum pedal and master cylinder from a early Holden, so that suggests the early Land Rover brakes were problematic.

The very first brake master cylinders were Lockheed then Girling hydrastatic. Parts may not have been available - so the system was likely changed.

Another mod he did was cut the bottom half of the petrol tank off, as Les reckoned that it was too low and used to get caught going over logs.

Besides those parts made from brass that I had already mentioned in other postings, I will keep onto the differences for you.

As would be expected of a Pre-Production or possibly very early Production vehicle.

The main difference was that Land Rover badge, it was cast brass and shaped like a folded ribbon, are there any photo's of a similar badge about?

Yes, there is a badge like you describe, mounted on the front guard in photos of a Pre-Production vehicle.
.

Thanks Arthur! There is a possibility that a Pre-Production vehicle may have been sent to Australia - yet to be proved however.

The first Production vehicles incorporated many parts that were first used in the Pre-Production vehicles so that could also explain the presence of some of these anomolies here.

Bob

[wrinklearthur]

How do we trace this Land Rover?

I do know that at the time that the boats that took apples back to Europe, also brought vehicles to Tasmania.

The car's were brought direct into Hobart by various dealers such as; A.G.Webster's, Gorringes and Heathorns, from the UK.

The Ferguson tractors were CKD and imported direct to the Hobart wharf by British Farm Mechanisation Co.

I wonder if these is any history left of those ship's manifest ?
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not doubting that there are a number of possibilities of pre production vehicles arrived in Aus or even Tasmania, but we also have to acknowledge that very early production vehicles were sent to Regents in Melbourne who were the Master Distributors for Rover Cars and Land Rover into both Victoria and Tasmania.

We know that R860005 went to Regents and is missing and also that pre-production vehicles were still being assembled in the UK at the same time. So as Bob says, it could be the case that the vehicle you remember with lots of pre pro fittings may actually be #0005.

[bobslandies]

This thread on a similar 1948 vein - How many 48s:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/151043-how-many-48s.html

Look particularly at Michael's and Alex's posts from #29 onwards.

Bob

[Jonesy1972]

when mine is done i am putting a pto and running something off the back but atm the only thing i have is a corn crusher

Maybe you could use it to run a generator, to run a fridge to serve icy cold beers. That would be a fantastic display at a show.

Regards
Jonesy

[LRO53]

Going off what Chassis Number NO 234 had. It's a Very Early 49.

NO 234 was R8663829

My guess looking at the shot where you can see part of the bulkhead it's a pressed bulkhead.

And just for the record very few "1948 Year model" vehicles we actually registered in Australia before Christmas 1948. We are only taking a dozen tops.

[russellrovers]

Does not look like a removable tow plate / draw bar - the webs slightly inboard of the towplate ends that go up inside the chassis rails are visible.

The removable draw bar was introduced at vehicle 06103841 (3841st 1950 model vehicle) and the curved hood bows were introduced at vehicle 06105463. If you have a good photo of the rear you may see the vertical webs clearer and the welded-on draw bar has ten holes, the later removable one has eight holes.

Bobhi bob ihave lost your contact no jim

[gromit]

Going off what Chassis Number NO 234 had. It's a Very Early 49.

NO 234 was R8663829

My guess looking at the shot where you can see part of the bulkhead it's a pressed bulkhead.

And just for the record very few "1948 Year model" vehicles we actually registered in Australia before Christmas 1948. We are only taking a dozen tops.

You must have better eyes than me, I might rescan the original photo at a higher resolution and enlarge it.

Did the old registration documents give the 'registration date' or the 'date of manufacture'. The FIL remembers 1948 on the documentation.
Speaking to him again tonight he cannot be sure that the sawmill was the first owner, he was just told it came from a sawmill.

There are some black & white photos he thinks are with another relative, we'll see if we can track them down.


Colin

[bobslandies]

You must have better eyes than me, I might rescan the original photo at a higher resolution and enlarge it.

What Alex is probably refering to is the profile of the windscreen hinge bracket area of the firewall. A higher resolution photo may show this shape better.

Did the old registration documents give the 'registration date' or the 'date of manufacture'. The FIL remembers 1948 on the documentation.
Speaking to him again tonight he cannot be sure that the sawmill was the first owner, he was just told it came from a sawmill.

There are some black & white photos he thinks are with another relative, we'll see if we can track them down.

Colin

More photos would be great.

Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Colin

I don't know if you have ever seen the brass 1948 or 1949 ID plates. The 1948 one has 1948 in raised numbers. The 1949 was the same plate but the 1948 stamped out, but in many cases the 1948 still readable, particularly as the background colour faded.

It is possible that someone read the date on a 49 and assumed it to be the incorrect MY48.

By 1950 the brass plates had been used up and the new ones were aluminium without the 1948.

Diana

[gromit]

Colin

I don't know if you have ever seen the brass 1948 or 1949 ID plates. The 1948 one has 1948 in raised numbers. The 1949 was the same plate but the 1948 stamped out, but in many cases the 1948 still readable, particularly as the background colour faded.

It is possible that someone read the date on a 49 and assumed it to be the incorrect MY48.

By 1950 the brass plates had been used up and the new ones were aluminium without the 1948.

Diana


Diana,

The '1948' was on the old registration papers. I believe they used to stay with the vehicle back then but not sure whether this is build date or date of registration.

I might arrange a search of the registration database with the AOMC but it's $75 and they are search by engine number ?? Not sure if they will be able to help.


Colin

[gromit]

My wife phoned the AOMC and yes they can only search on engine number ! We could give them a series of possible engine numbers but it would be $75 for each search.
Apparently they have approximately 100 cabinets, each with 4 drawers full up with the old record cards. Everything has to be manually searched.
The search by engine number must have been how the filing was done at VicRoads (or were they called something different back then ?). Crazy when the engine could be replaced, but I guess you should let them know so it would always be kept up-to-date.
Michael Bishop had already done this for the Australian 48's so it probably wouldn't throw anything up.

She then contacted ULR and found that the current dealer principle took over the business in 1974. All the earlier records were passed over to him.
They haven't made any promises, but they will look into what details they have on NV 305.
If they find something, hopefully it will have the chassis number !

I'll keep you posted.

Another snippet he remembers was shackles at the front of the springs......


Colin

[JDNSW]

.......
The search by engine number must have been how the filing was done at VicRoads (or were they called something different back then ?). Crazy when the engine could be replaced, but I guess you should let them know so it would always be kept up-to-date.
.......

Colin

Chassis numbers did not become universal until about the 1950s - prior to that the only unique identifier on cars was the serial number on the engine, so this is what was adopted when registration authorities set up their record keeping early in the 20th century. (Landrovers had chassis numbers from the start)

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana,

The '1948' was on the old registration papers. I believe they used to stay with the vehicle back then but not sure whether this is build date or date of registration.
...<snip>
ColinHi Colin

I understood that, but up until 1972 when compliance plates were affixed, most authorities were unable to de-code car numbers/chassis numbers so would use whatever was to hand and a clear or even a faint 1948 on the ID may be enough. If the issue with engine numbers is correct, both 1948 and 1949 had the 1948 engine number sequence.

I have to say, this is a mystery the solution is holding my attention closely.

Diana :)

[101RRS]

I might arrange a search of the registration database with the AOMC but it's $75 and they are search by engine number ?? Not sure if they will be able to help.


Colin

What information do they provide?

I have a 57 station wagon that I would like to any information that they have on it - I have an old rego sticker so have original engine number, chassis number and Vic rego number - original first rego would have been in NSW though.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What information do they provide?

I have a 57 station wagon that I would like to any information that they have on it - I have an old rego sticker so have original engine number, chassis number and Vic rego number - original first rego would have been in NSW though.

Cheers
GarryGarry

If it was first sold in NSW it should be in the Grenville books. Just need the chassis number.

Diana

[101RRS]

Garry

If it was first sold in NSW it should be in the Grenville books. Just need the chassis number.

Diana

Thanks Diana - you have already given me its initial delivery information - went to the Anthony Hordens Company - either the shop or to their country estate out Camden/Picton way. I have written to what is left of the family empire at their vineyard in the Hunter but got no response.

I am trying to fill in the gap when the vehicle was in Vic - from ??? until it was taken off the road in the late 70s in Vic.

cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Diana - you have already given me its initial delivery information - went to the Anthony Hordens Company - either the shop or to their country estate out Camden/Picton way. I have written to what is left of the family empire at their vineyard in the Hunter but got no response.

I am trying to fill in the gap when the vehicle was in Vic - from ??? until it was taken off the road in the late 70s in Vic.

cheers
GarryI thought I'd done that ages ago.

John Horden (Anthony John Horden) was working for one of the wineries, but I didn't think the family still owned the Horden named winery, I trained in midwifery with his wife but we have lost contact years ago.

Diana

[gromit]

What information do they provide?

I have a 57 station wagon that I would like to any information that they have on it - I have an old rego sticker so have original engine number, chassis number and Vic rego number - original first rego would have been in NSW though.

Cheers

Garry


Garry,

Have a look on their website Engine Number Searches (http://www.aomc.asn.au/eng&regrecords.htm)

Scroll down the bottom and you will see an example of a record card.


Colin

[101RRS]

Thanks Colin - that is great.

C heers

Garry

[dennisS1]

It would be very interesting if anyone or any other photo determines if the tub had holders for the strap type tilt or the later rope holder’s spot welded on.
The one photo we have if you magnify it and look really carefully it looks as if it has the rope type thus not 48 or early 49.
Dennis

[gromit]

Some more photos have turned up but the Land Rover is not the main subject in the picture. Once I get them I'll see if they are worth scanning & posting.

Colin

[bobslandies]

From the AOMC website (Engine Number Searches (http://www.aomc.asn.au/eng&regrecords.htm)) referred to by Colin:

Registration Number Ranges

Note that the number ranges ranges and dates show below should not be taken as absolutely accurate as it is possible that small groups of numbers may have been issued to country Victoria districts and may have taken some considerable time to be used.

FA000 Jan 1943
GW000 Jul 1945
JJ000 Nov 1946
NN000 Jul 1949
TA000 Dec 1950

If you look at Diana's post #21, my post #24 and Alex's post #39 you can see the pattern of Registration Plate issuance referred to by the AOMC.

Bob

[gromit]

From the AOMC website (Engine Number Searches (http://www.aomc.asn.au/eng&regrecords.htm)) referred to by Colin:

Registration Number Ranges

Note that the number ranges ranges and dates show below should not be taken as absolutely accurate as it is possible that small groups of numbers may have been issued to country Victoria districts and may have taken some considerable time to be used.

FA000 Jan 1943
GW000 Jul 1945
JJ000 Nov 1946
NN000 Jul 1949
TA000 Dec 1950

If you look at Diana's post #21, my post #24 and Alex's post #39 you can see the pattern of Registration Plate issuance referred to by the AOMC.

Bob


But......if it was registered in Country Vic it could be out of sequence (as above) and also it may not have been registered by the first owner if it went to a farm.

Unless we are very lucky with getting info from ULR I don't think we will ever be able to confirm the year of the Father-in-Law's 80".



Colin

[gromit]

Just spent spent an evening with the FIL running through some more photos and also james Taylors book Original Land Rover Series I.
A few things he wasn't sure of made sense when he looked at the book.

It did have the screw on staple type cleats rather than the spot welded cleats but.....if you look carefully at the first picture below these have been changed for a screw on rope cleat (just had a look at the original with a magnifying glass).
He doesn't remember rubbers round the pedal shafts but admitted that they may have perished and been lost.
Renault 750 seats were fitted.
One D light (battered) on one side, round lamp on the other.
It was a folded type bulkhead but he cannot remember whether the seal was attached to the bulkhead or the screen.
It had a Rover clutch.
In the first picture below there is no centre rib in the tailboard and I cannot see evidence of one having been there. The hinges look different to those we found in JT's book.

He remembers who he sold it to and recons he could navigate to the property so maybe we'll go for a drive one weekend.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/195.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/196.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/197.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/198.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/199.jpg



I look forward to your feedback.


Colin

[123rover50]

Those old photos are just great. Thanks for posting them.
Keith

[chazza]

Fascinating article Colin!

Are those front springs hinged at the front? My eyes are too dodgy to tell.

Hope you find out where it is :)

Cheers Charlie

[bobslandies]

Just spent spent an evening with the FIL running through some more photos and also james Taylors book Original Land Rover Series I.
A few things he wasn't sure of made sense when he looked at the book.

It did have the screw on staple type cleats rather than the spot welded cleats but.....if you look carefully at the first picture below these have been changed for a screw on rope cleat (just had a look at the original with a magnifying glass).

He doesn't remember rubbers round the pedal shafts but admitted that they may have perished and been lost.
Renault 750 seats were fitted.
One D light (battered) on one side, round lamp on the other.
It was a folded type bulkhead but he cannot remember whether the seal was attached to the bulkhead or the screen.

The folded type (squarish) bulkhead would make it a pre-1501 "early" 1948.
As it was light green when your FIL got it it would most likely still have had the original chassis colour of silver. The second last photo gives the impression the chassis could be silver, but can't really tell that the crank handle tube is "proud" of the front crossmember.
Ask him if he remembers that - silver chassis and/or pipe sticking out.

It had a Rover clutch.

Rover clutch had different flywheel but was used up to earliest 1950 models.

In the first picture below there is no centre rib in the tailboard and I cannot see evidence of one having been there. The hinges look different to those we found in JT's book.

The first and last photos appear to show that the tailgate had been repaired at the bottom, the hinges look like replacements also (gate hinges?). Tailgates were pretty flimsy and many are bush repaired with angle, added sheeting, etc.?)

He remembers who he sold it to and recons he could navigate to the property so maybe we'll go for a drive one weekend.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/195.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/196.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/197.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/198.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/199.jpg



I look forward to your feedback.


Colin

If it had the square folded firewall and a silver chassis it was a pre-1500 1948 vehicle.

Can't determine from the grille mesh rows (width and height) count whether the grille is an early 1948 or later type. (Sure beats rivet counting:Rolling::no2::no2::D)

The LAND ROVER badge colours would be useful too but no guaranteeing that they had not been touched up in the years before your FIL bought the vehicle.

Have a look with your magnifying glass - looks to me that it may have had some "divided wheels" or ask your FIL about that too.

x2 thanks for the photos too!

Bob

[bobslandies]

Fascinating article Colin!

Are those front springs hinged at the front? My eyes are too dodgy to tell.

Hope you find out where it is :)

Cheers Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Yes 1948-1950 narrow spring setup.

Bob

[wrinklearthur]

I haven't checked this out yet, so I thought on this thread would be a good place to ask.
Is the measurement inside of the tub smaller from side to side on the first of the 80"?

Does that mean that the width of the cappings is wider or is the tub's outside measurement smaller widthwise than the later 80"?

.

[easo]

Hey Colin, I wish you the best if you do go for a drive looking for it. It would be exciting.

Easo

P.S. Take cash!

[bobslandies]

I haven't checked this out yet, so I thought on this thread would be a good place to ask.
Is the measurement inside of the tub smaller from side to side on the first of the 80"?

Does that mean that the width of the cappings is wider or is the tub's outside measurement smaller widthwise than the later 80"?

.

Hi Arthur,

The overall tub outside dimensions are the same - length, height, width.
The differences between the 1948-mid 1950 and post 06110305 vehicles are that the earlier transom behind the seats was the "wide" transom and the seats had the "sprung" shovel style back rests, had a wide capping also.
The "narrow" transom with a narrow capping giving more space in the cab was introduced and the hinged "spade" type seat backs were fitted.
The side capping are the same width.

Bob

[gromit]

If it had the square folded firewall and a silver chassis it was a pre-1500 1948 vehicle.

Can't determine from the grille mesh rows (width and height) count whether the grille is an early 1948 or later type. (Sure beats rivet counting:Rolling::no2::no2::D)

The LAND ROVER badge colours would be useful too but no guaranteeing that they had not been touched up in the years before your FIL bought the vehicle.

Have a look with your magnifying glass - looks to me that it may have had some "divided wheels" or ask your FIL about that too.

x2 thanks for the photos too!

Bob

Bob,

What width & height count am I looking for in the grille ?
He said it had split rims when he got it.

The Father-in-Law has enjoyed the interest created. To him it was just a working vehicle at the time.
He replaced the rings in the one pictured (and a few others) with the block in the car. The old gudgeon pin out the exhaust port trick. He also mentioned dropping the crank with the block still in the car.


Colin

[bobslandies]

Bob,

What width & height count am I looking for in the grille?

Well,
If you have a grille to look at:
Knowing that the perimeter shape and size are very close - and the mounting holes in the plates are in the same position relative to the radiator support panel then when you compare the early and then later (say 1949/50) lights behind type grilles:

The first grilles had 28 vertical kinked flat strip "bars" and 16 horizontals. The two end verticals were very close to the perimeter rod - there is about 1/8" gap. Likewise the lowest horizontal - about 1/2" to the perimeter. The top horizontal starts in the third full width inboard square from the ends and is about 3/4"down from the curved perimeter at its highest point. There is a gap (ie non-continuous strip) where it approaches the fixing plate from both ends but is not attached to the plate at all.
The plate through which the fixing bolt passes is 7/8"wide by 1 3/8"deep and is attached to the upper perimeter frame rod and then to the second horizontal. Effectively the mounting hole is below the first row of grille holes.

Later grilles have 27 vertical strips and 15 horizontals. The two end verticals are about 7/16" to 1/2" from the perimeter rod. The bottom and top horizontals are about 1" from the perimeter rod. The top horizontal starts in the first full width inboard square from the ends.
In these grilles the fixing bolt plate is attached at three points to the strips, the first horizontal strip is just below the mounting hole and the 6th inboard vertical strip starts below the hole where it attaches to the plate.

In early grilles the square mesh holes seem to average around 7/8" while the later grilles are 15/16". If you count the very thin partial "squares" there are 29 x 17 in the first grilles and 28 x 16 in the later ones.

Told you it was better than rivet counting;)

He said it had split rims when he got it.

Thought that is what they were.

The Father-in-Law has enjoyed the interest created. To him it was just a working vehicle at the time.
He replaced the rings in the one pictured (and a few others) with the block in the car. The old gudgeon pin out the exhaust port trick. He also mentioned dropping the crank with the block still in the car.


Colin

It's great that we are able to get this far, the photos alone are fantastic, like the ones Andy posted from WA and R860138 in its Grenville Motors demo heyday all signwritten.

Bob

[tom the pom]

Going off what Chassis Number NO 234 had. It's a Very Early 49.

NO 234 was R8663829

My guess looking at the shot where you can see part of the bulkhead it's a pressed bulkhead.

And just for the record very few "1948 Year model" vehicles we actually registered in Australia before Christmas 1948. We are only taking a dozen tops.

R8663829 was a very original 1949 model, restored in Victoria, and the registration number NO234 was put bought and put on that land rover, as the original NO234 vehicle is not known to exist. This was used in the Regent motor sales brochure.

The vehicle here pictured in these nice colour pictures looks to me to be either a later 866 series chassis number vehicle, it has boxed in rear cross member, and 6 tubes on the rear cross member as well to hold on the optional pto and towing jaw. It also has the second set of tail board capping, but no seals, nor does the door bottoms. It could have been light green but it would have been one of the last, it would have been on of the first few thousand vehicles imported here in Australia. It certainly is not a 48model.

860004 is the oldest Australia vehicle that originally came to Australia, the pre production vehicle that lives in Perth, was imported along with the owner in 2007. 860004 also lives in Perth.

There is no evidence of any other pre production vehicles being here in Australia, but you never know. Another rare 80" vehicle that came here was the 81" 1950 model tested by the Australian army, it has a Rolls Royce’s B40 engine in it, 4 cylinders, and this was tested along with a late 1948 model 862994 which I think had a Holden Grey engine in it.

Anyway nice series of pictures, the body looks well used!! I guess you FIL would of had to take the gearbox out in order to remove the crank with the block still in the vehicle.

[gromit]

[/FONT][/COLOR]

R8663829 was a very original 1949 model, restored in Victoria, and the registration number NO234 was put bought and put on that land rover, as the original NO234 vehicle is not known to exist. This was used in the Regent motor sales brochure.

The vehicle here pictured in these nice colour pictures looks to me to be either a later 866 series chassis number vehicle, it has boxed in rear cross member, and 6 tubes on the rear cross member as well to hold on the optional pto and towing jaw. It also has the second set of tail board capping, but no seals, nor does the door bottoms. It could have been light green but it would have been one of the last, it would have been on of the first few thousand vehicles imported here in Australia. It certainly is not a 48model.

860004 is the oldest Australia vehicle that originally came to Australia, the pre production vehicle that lives in Perth, was imported along with the owner in 2007. 860004 also lives in Perth.

There is no evidence of any other pre production vehicles being here in Australia, but you never know. Another rare 80" vehicle that came here was the 81" 1950 model tested by the Australian army, it has a Rolls Royce’s B40 engine in it, 4 cylinders, and this was tested along with a late 1948 model 862994 which I think had a Holden Grey engine in it.

Anyway nice series of pictures, the body looks well used!! I guess you FIL would of had to take the gearbox out in order to remove the crank with the block still in the vehicle.


Gearbox wasn't removed but he thinks he separated them in situ.


Colin

[Davo]

Great photos. Is that last one a still from a movie? It could almost be - it has a real look about it.

[gromit]

Great photos. Is that last one a still from a movie? It could almost be - it has a real look about it.

The picture was taken outside a property the FIL 'owned' in Gaffneys Creek, unfortunately it burnt down a few years ago in the fires.
It was on possessive occupancy then adverse possession, in other words it was Crown Land but his sister used to live there and fought the case (adverse possession finished on Crown Land in Victoria back in the 80's). Originally the property was on a 'miners right' and dated back to the late 1800's.
It was funny, after the fires the wife phoned Mansfield council to see how we stood regarding re-building. The person she spoke to first said 'where's Gaffneys Creek' and then told her that adverse possession on Crown Land was outlawed back in the 80's. The council were more than happy to accept the rates payments though ........

The only thing that survived was a small machinery shed, we extracted a Macdiesel engine and generator set and it's now in my shed awaiting time to be allocated to getting it going.

Some of the hairstyles do date the picture.
Stirrup pump by the rear wheel had just been used to pump up the tyre.


Colin

[andy_d110]

No, I dont have it or know where it is, hence this thread. It would be interesting to find out who has it....authenticated of course and even a list of perhaps the ten oldest in Australia.....or has this already been done?

Well it's been a few weeks now, there has been no sign of the centre steer, no uncovered pre production vehicles, not even a series 3 thinly disguised on gumtree as a Tickford welder with a pre production fire engine tub.

Looks like R860004 retains its crown as the oldest production vehicle, while L48 is the one and only pre pro to grace our shores.

There are pre 1500 survivors in most states, if you are interested it is worth while getting along to your local British car day / Land Rover club meeting and comparing a pre 1500 vehicle alongside a later version. Then you can see the differences first hand.

Andy.

[wrinklearthur]

while L48 is the one and only pre pro to grace our shores.

Hi Andy

Where do you look for the identification number for the pre production build, such as L48?


There are pre 1500 survivors in most states, if you are interested it is worth while getting along to your local British car day / Land Rover club meeting and comparing a pre 1500 vehicle alongside a later version. Then you can see the differences first hand.

There is only a small handful of known pre 1950 Land Rovers in Tasmania.
Lets see if the holy grail of Land Rovers shows up or they have already been all found.
.

[andy_d110]

Hi Andy

Where do you look for the identification number for the pre production build, such as L48?
.


The best place to find one would be Gaydon in England!

There is a book out called "Land Rover the Formative years", this covers from the centre steer onwards (It's available from the Series one club). There is a big section about the pre pros and the variations of them all. The only one I have seen is L48, this has the plate on the bulkhead like 48/49's but with L48 on it. Some of the early pre pros have a stencil of the chassis number on the number 2 crossmember as well.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/959.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/963.jpg

Note crossmember below radiator and wooden block on the bonnet for the windscreen support.

[bobslandies]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/959.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/963.jpg

Note crossmember below radiator and wooden block on the bonnet for the windscreen support.

Thanks for posting the photos Diana,

As I said in post #67 you can now see for yourself in a period photo of Pre Production R 02. As mentioned by Andy the number was on the second crossmember (the front bumper bar was welded on at that stage).

To differentiate the grilles:

Knowing that the perimeter shape and size are very close - and the mounting holes in the plates are in the same position relative to the radiator support panel then when you compare the early and then later (say 1949/50) lights behind type grilles:

The first grilles had 28 vertical kinked flat strip "bars" and 16 horizontals. The two end verticals were very close to the perimeter rod - there is about 1/8" gap. Likewise the lowest horizontal - about 1/2" to the perimeter. The top horizontal starts in the third full width inboard square from the ends and is about 3/4"down from the curved perimeter at its highest point. There is a gap (ie non-continuous strip) where it approaches the fixing plate from both ends but is not attached to the plate at all.
The plate through which the fixing bolt passes is 7/8"wide by 1 3/8"deep and is attached to the upper perimeter frame rod and then to the second horizontal. Effectively the mounting hole is below the first row of grille holes.

Later grilles have 27 vertical strips and 15 horizontals. The two end verticals are about 7/16" to 1/2" from the perimeter rod. The bottom and top horizontals are about 1" from the perimeter rod. The top horizontal starts in the first full width inboard square from the ends.
In these grilles the fixing bolt plate is attached at three points to the strips, the first horizontal strip is just below the mounting hole and the 6th inboard vertical strip starts below the hole where it attaches to the plate.

In early grilles the square mesh holes seem to average around 7/8" while the later grilles are 15/16". If you count the very thin partial "squares" there are 29 x 17 in the first grilles and 28 x 16 in the later ones.

Told you it was better than rivet counting;)

Bob

[wrinklearthur]

Were there any of the first production painted off white or a light grey ?

[wrinklearthur]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/959.jpg
Note crossmember below radiator and wooden block on the bonnet for the windscreen support.

No badge on that one either.

[260AC]

Hi All,

Great thread and fantastic photos.

Here is a link for the research I did on the 48 models in Australia back in the 1990s that followed on from research done in the 1980s by Anthony Maeder and Bob Atkins.

Login (http://www.lrsoc.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=103)

There is also a link to the Australian Classic Car news article I wrote on Australian 1948 models in 2004. Since then pre pro L48 has made its way to Australia.

Yes you will have to sign into the S1 club forum to get it.

At the time I wrote down all the 80" vehicles dispatched to Australia and NZ. It is around 10,000 vehicles. I supplied the raw data recently to the NZ guys for their vehicles. They can tidy it up as it is hand written and make a database from it. I'm happy to do so here with the Oz info as well as long as it is made available for everyone to use once it is put into a usable format.

Cheers

[series1buff]

Did anyone spot the DIRECTIONAL chevron pattern bar tread tyres on that pre pro vehicle ?

During WW2 , these tyres were common on military trucks . They were initially fitted with the V pointing forwards, but an official memorandum printed, wanted them fitted the other way around , the mud tended to be flung out better

Mike

[wrinklearthur]

Did anyone spot the DIRECTIONAL chevron pattern bar tread tyres on that pre pro vehicle ?
During WW2 , these tyres were common on military trucks . They were initially fitted with the V pointing forwards, but an official memorandum printed, wanted them fitted the other way around , the mud tended to be flung out better.

Hi Mike

The split rims were designed for fitting the tractor tread tyres.

Those patterns are directional best fitted that way shown in the photo for maximum traction in loam or clay soils, but in sand they need to be fitted around the other way, as the tread gathers the sand and helps stop the tyre digging in.

On four wheel drive tractor the front tyres are some times fitted for hill work, around the other way, one reason is to reduce skipping going uphill with a full draught load, then to give better grip for the tractor to hold back on engine braking when heading down hill and for less wear travelling on hard surface or bitumen roads, as the tyre is rolling not pulling .

That directive by a desk jockey that could only drive a pencil, may have been more to do with reducing tyre wear than a misguided attempt to gain more traction, unless it was for Land Rovers operating in desert country (sand), then the directive would be perfectly understandable.

Under certain circumstances at a particular level of moisture of damp clay, it is possible to have clay fill up the tread and then not clear.
By reversing the tread pattern the tyre isn't able to bite into the damp soil as much, so not filling the tread fully giving to chance to throw the build up out.

In Australian conditions where it's more likely to be stony or dry loose soil country, the V on top of the rear tyre, should point forward to the direction of travel. Please yourself which way around the tread for front tyre should operate for the same reasons I have listed about farm tractor tyres.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Did anyone spot the DIRECTIONAL chevron pattern bar tread tyres on that pre pro vehicle ?

During WW2 , these tyres were common on military trucks . They were initially fitted with the V pointing forwards, but an official memorandum printed, wanted them fitted the other way around , the mud tended to be flung out better

MikeThe traditional thinking in farming terms is that on driven wheels the "arrow" should point forward on the top of the wheel and on non driven wheels (steer and on trailers) the arrow should point to the rear. This was supposed to create most traction and less tendency to break the surface with the non-driven wheels. The MoD simply followed this on 4WD assuming the front wheels to be driven.

It was the Canadians who were most likely to have the front tyres the other way around, probably because they have more experience with snow and mud.

BTW: I think you will find the tyres to be Dunlop T28 Trakgrip pattern.

[wrinklearthur]

Were there any of the first production painted off white or a light grey ?

Inc has posted a picture of what appears to be that grey colour but I remembered it as a lot more faded towards white.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/slow-chat/170569-seriously-series-pics-net-thread.html#post1874000

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

.

[bobslandies]

Inc has posted a picture of what appears to be that grey colour but I remembered it as a lot more faded towards white.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/slow-chat/170569-seriously-series-pics-net-thread.html#post1874000

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320277_2038664528074_1844877583_n.jpg

.

Hi Arthur,

The Pre Production, 1948 and early 1949 vehicles were light green (real Rover talk) in colour. Someone will soon come along and tell us it was sage green but I think it may have been Tony Hutchins that coined that term.
There is also reference to Green No 2 in some very early vehicles.
A close approximation is Colorbond "Rivergum" for those conversant with that colour. (I think they have renamed it to "Wildeness" now).

See here:
Colour Centre: Standard Range (http://www.colorbondcolours.com/home/residential/see-our-colours/standard-range/standard-range?gclid=CPO9lJyQ97UCFWhNpgodKlIARw)

It is entirely possible that the colour could have faded and gone chalky to look grey/white.

Bob

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hi Arthur,

The Pre Production, 1948 and early 1949 vehicles were light green (real Rover talk) in colour. Someone will soon come along and tell us it was sage green but I think it may have been Tony Hutchins that coined that term.
There is also reference to Green No 2 in some very early vehicles.
A close approximation is Colorbond "Rivergum" for those conversant with that colour. (I think they have renamed it to "Wildeness" now).

See here:
Colour Centre: Standard Range (http://www.colorbondcolours.com/home/residential/see-our-colours/standard-range/standard-range?gclid=CPO9lJyQ97UCFWhNpgodKlIARw)

It is entirely possible that the colour could have faded and gone chalky to look grey/white.

Bob

I recently viewed 2 early 49's (both owned by close friends), both originally the 'sage green', the only difference one had been fully restored, the other had the original bodywork and never been touched (body / paint wise). The un-touched one was much more white/grey than green... And no I wast looking at the bare ally!

Two pics attached.
Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

[wrinklearthur]

Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4051 7th Edition, Technical Publication No TP111/G,
1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, Section II 1952 - 53 Models and Section III Extra Equipment,
(Applicable to all Models) and special vehicles.

In the section, 1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, listed on page 179, Trimming Raw Materials;

Special paint, Green . 1 pint ... tin ... ... 262069
Special paint, Green . 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 262072

Special paint, Ivory .. 1 pint ... tin ... ... 261887
Special paint, Ivory .. 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 261902

Special paint, Blue ... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244272
Special paint, Blue ... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244275

Special paint, Red .... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244276
Special paint, Red .... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244279

Special paint, Beige ... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244280
Special paint, Beige ... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244823

Special paint, Grey .... 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244284
Special paint, Grey .... 1 gallon tin ... ... 244287

That is the list of paints available to repair Land Rovers 1948 - 52 and is the same list of paints for 1952 - 53, page 148.

The listing changes in my copy of;
Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4107, 3rd Edition June 1956, Technical Publication No TP155/C, Series I, 86, 88, 107 and 109, page 328, Trimming Raw Materials;


Special paint, dark green.. 1 pint .. tin ... 262069
Special paint, dark green ..1 quart. tin ... 262070
Special paint, dark green . ½ gallon tin ... 262071
Special paint, dark green ..1 gallon tin ... 262072

Special paint, Ivory.. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 262643
Special paint, Ivory.. 1 quart. tin ... ... 262644
Special paint, Ivory. ½ gallon tin ... ... 262645
Special paint, Ivory.. 1 gallon tin ... ... 262646

Special paint, Blue .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244272
Special paint, Blue .. 1 quart. tin ... ... 244273
Special paint, Blue . ½ gallon tin ... ... 244274
Special paint, Blue .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244275

Special paint, Red ... 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244276
Special paint, Red ... 1 quart. tin ... ... 244277
Special paint, Red .. ½ gallon tin ... ... 244278
Special paint, Red ... 1 gallon tin ... ... 244279

Special paint, Beige .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244280
Special paint, Beige .. 1 quart. tin ... ... 244281
Special paint, Beige . ½ gallon tin ... ... 244282
Special paint, Beige .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244823

Special paint, Grey .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244284
Special paint, Grey ..1 quart. tin ... ... 244285
Special paint, Grey ..½ gallon tin ... ... 244286
Special paint, Grey .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244287

The listing changes again in my copy of;
Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4107, 2nd Revision October, 1961, Technical Publication No TP155/E, Series I, 86, 88, 107 and 109, Petrol and Diesel models.

listed on page 418, Trimming Raw Materials;


Special paint, bronze green 1 pint .. tin . 262069
Special paint, bronze green 1 gallon. tin . 262072

Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 261887
Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 quart. tin ... 262644
Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 261902

Special paint, R.A.F. Blue .. 1 pint .. tin ... 244272
Special paint, R.A.F. Blue .. 1 gallon. tin ... 244275

Special paint, Poppy Red ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244276
Special paint, Poppy Red ... 1 gallon tin ... 244279

Special paint, Beige .. ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244280
Special paint, Beige .. ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 244283

Special paint, Grey ... ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244284
Special paint, Grey ... ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 244287

[wrinklearthur]

--- the other had the original bodywork and never been touched (body / paint wise). The un-touched one was much more white/grey than green... And no I wast looking at the bare ally!

Hi Jon

It does take a bit to convince some on these pages, they don't have all the answers ! :lol2:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Special paint, Grey .... 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244284
Special paint, Grey .... 1 gallon tin ... ... 244287


The Les Wells 80" was originally a light Grey.
.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hi Jon

It does take a bit to convince some on these pages, they don't have all the answers ! :lol2:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/57754d1363123651-australias-oldest-land-rover-image-284228674.jpg



The Les Wells 80" was originally a light Grey.
.

Arthur,
The 80 in the attached was definately more green than grey when I walked around it. The front of the front wings and the bonnet just anage to indicate the greenness, or lack of it now! Indeed, it never even entered my head that it could of once been anything other than green.

The reason I posted the 2 pics was to hi-light how the paintwork changes over 64 years!

Les Wells? Apologies for my lack of knowledge, but who's Les Wells?

Thx
Jon

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4051 7th Edition, Technical Publication No TP111/G,
1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, Section II 1952 - 53 Models and Section III Extra Equipment,
(Applicable to all Models) and special vehicles.

In the section, 1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, listed on page 179, Trimming Raw Materials;

....Now just try to get someone to do a correct tint of a gallon tin Rover part No. 262072 today? :(

[bobslandies]

Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4051 7th Edition, Technical Publication No TP111/G,
1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, Section II 1952 - 53 Models and Section III Extra Equipment,
(Applicable to all Models) and special vehicles.

In the section, 1948 - 53 Series I Models, Section I 1948 - 51 Models, listed on page 179, Trimming Raw Materials;

Special paint, Green . 1 pint ... tin ... ... 262069
Special paint, Green . 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 262072

Special paint, Ivory .. 1 pint ... tin ... ... 261887
Special paint, Ivory .. 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 261902

Special paint, Blue ... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244272
Special paint, Blue ... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244275

Special paint, Red .... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244276
Special paint, Red .... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244279

Special paint, Beige ... 1 pint ... tin ... ... 244280
Special paint, Beige ... 1 gallon.. tin ... ... 244823

Special paint, Grey .... 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244284
Special paint, Grey .... 1 gallon tin ... ... 244287

That is the list of paints available to repair Land Rovers 1948 - 52 and is the same list of paints for 1952 - 53, page 148.

The listing changes in my copy of;
Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4107, 3rd Edition June 1956, Technical Publication No TP155/C, Series I, 86, 88, 107 and 109, page 328, Trimming Raw Materials;


Special paint, dark green.. 1 pint .. tin ... 262069
Special paint, dark green ..1 quart. tin ... 262070
Special paint, dark green . ½ gallon tin ... 262071
Special paint, dark green ..1 gallon tin ... 262072

Special paint, Ivory.. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 262643
Special paint, Ivory.. 1 quart. tin ... ... 262644
Special paint, Ivory. ½ gallon tin ... ... 262645
Special paint, Ivory.. 1 gallon tin ... ... 262646

Special paint, Blue .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244272
Special paint, Blue .. 1 quart. tin ... ... 244273
Special paint, Blue . ½ gallon tin ... ... 244274
Special paint, Blue .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244275

Special paint, Red ... 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244276
Special paint, Red ... 1 quart. tin ... ... 244277
Special paint, Red .. ½ gallon tin ... ... 244278
Special paint, Red ... 1 gallon tin ... ... 244279

Special paint, Beige .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244280
Special paint, Beige .. 1 quart. tin ... ... 244281
Special paint, Beige . ½ gallon tin ... ... 244282
Special paint, Beige .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244823

Special paint, Grey .. 1 pint .. tin ... ... 244284
Special paint, Grey ..1 quart. tin ... ... 244285
Special paint, Grey ..½ gallon tin ... ... 244286
Special paint, Grey .. 1 gallon tin ... ... 244287

The listing changes again in my copy of;
Land Rover Parts Catalogue, Part No 4107, 2nd Revision October, 1961, Technical Publication No TP155/E, Series I, 86, 88, 107 and 109, Petrol and Diesel models.

listed on page 418, Trimming Raw Materials;


Special paint, bronze green 1 pint .. tin . 262069
Special paint, bronze green 1 gallon. tin . 262072

Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 261887
Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 quart. tin ... 262644
Special paint, Ivory.. ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 261902

Special paint, R.A.F. Blue .. 1 pint .. tin ... 244272
Special paint, R.A.F. Blue .. 1 gallon. tin ... 244275

Special paint, Poppy Red ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244276
Special paint, Poppy Red ... 1 gallon tin ... 244279

Special paint, Beige .. ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244280
Special paint, Beige .. ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 244283

Special paint, Grey ... ... ... 1 pint .. tin ... 244284
Special paint, Grey ... ... ... 1 gallon. tin ... 244287

All well and good quoting parts manuals compiled years later. The "80" that you have said had gate-latch door handles and bronze fittings has to be in the first 200 vehicles produced or be a vehicle repaired with parts scavenged from such a vehicle. In 1948/early 1949 the "standard" colour was a light green and spectrographic analysis has been able to identify its source. (Plenty on the Series 1 Forum about that). Be interesting to see what the first 1948 Parts Manual (dated 1948) has for paint colours.

The only way to determine an "original" paint colour on a vehicle is to remove one of the blanking plates somewhere (ideally a seatbox one) and look at the area never exposed to weathering or contact with other components.

I have original Australian printed 1948/49 brochures that show a Centre-Steer vehicle. It's obvious the artwork or blocks were sent from the UK for these to be produced. These brochures and even advertisements in newspapers are the obvious source of the folk-lore recollections of old-timers who swear they saw, drove, owned just such a vehicle. Press Release photos used here show a Pre-Production vehicle.

It may be that the white/grey colour is actually the etch that you saw as the paint had completely disappeared. Try getting it off the alloy - it's pretty tough stuff. You also see it black and yellow in the 80" vehicles.

In the photo Jon posted the visible parts of the firewall is denuded of paint and rusted/oxidised so the vehicle has been exposed to the elements for many years.

And when Colorbond Rivergum is good enough to be exported from here and used by restorers in the UK I imagine it must be very close to the correct colour for Pre-Productions and 1948/49 models.....................;)

Bob

[andy_d110]

They all look grey in old black and white photos. :wasntme:

[digger]

They all look grey in old black and white photos. :wasntme:

No actually everything was really grey or black and white...
those photos are colour - the world was B&W.

(this is how I explained my childhood photos to my kids. :) )

[wrinklearthur]

They all look grey in old black and white photos.

I had better be careful at the traffic lights then? :p

Les's Land Rover was the same colour light grey inside and out.

Good point about the undercoat being grey paint, I had better look for that service update, as it said something about that.

Les Wells, if he was still alive today would be aged somewhere about 110 to 120 years old, so I can't introduce him to you except by description and I guess that his Land Rover is the much the same, as I don't know where I can find any evidence of it's existence.

It's a bit like the story of the WW2 Harley Davidson motor bikes in boxes, but then, they did dig up those WW2 planes ( Spitfires? ) in South East Asia!
.

[bobslandies]

I had better be careful at the traffic lights then? :p

Les's Land Rover was the same colour light grey inside and out.

Good point about the undercoat being grey paint, I had better look for that service update, as it said something about that.

Les Wells, if he was still alive today would be aged somewhere about 110 to 120 years old, so I can't introduce him to you except by description and I guess that his Land Rover is the much the same, as I don't know where I can find any evidence of it's existence.
It's a bit like the story of the WW2 Harley Davidson motor bikes in boxes, but then, they did dig up those WW2 planes ( Spitfires? ) in South East Asia!
.

Arthur,

You have the knowledge of it and the interest in its fate. Enquiries in the area where Les lived could turn up leads, even photos like those published in the thread - it could be an exciting hunt! It is always possible that you may find it too. About a quarter of the pre-1500 vehicles sent to Australia over sixty years ago have turned up since Michael's research was published and generated the interaction of enthusiasts.

Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

They all look grey in old black and white photos. :wasntme:No actually everything was really grey or black and white...
those photos are colour - the world was B&W.

(this is how I explained my childhood photos to my kids. :) )I was a bit worried, I knew the World didn't become coloured till after WW1 but I frequently didn't know what to think when I saw WWII movies in colour.

Then I realised they were only made in colour for us post-War baby boomers. :angel:

[andy_d110]

Here's some info about R860130 and how it was found in WA's south west.

Untitled Document (http://www.waroc.org.au/sw-area/art1.htm)

http://www.series123.com/AUShomepages/index24/index.html

Note how it has also faded to a greyish colour.

[1950landy]

Hi , It looks like a 49 grill , yhe 48's had one extra horozontal bar in the grill (16) bars the 49 - 50 had (15) bars in the grill . The bottom bar was closser to the bottom of the grill. If you count the number of bars in the grill of the old photo & the photo of the 48 with the P3 & truck in the background this grill has 16 bars to the other ones 15.
Wayne

[bulletproof]

I believe it is just the hot Australian sun fading them for sure because up until mid 49 they were all light green

This is the true original color on my 49 that was under a double skin and never seen the light of day.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/319.jpg

Cheers Richard

[incisor]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

seems to be two colours

left hand row is darker than right hand row?

[123rover50]

seems to be two colours

left hand row is darker than right hand row?

I think its the light. Look at the shadow, its more pronounced on the right as its closer to the scource.

[incisor]

hmmmmmmmmm

seems to be more to it than light intensity or brightness.

the shadow on the chassis of both vehicles at the front looks the same to me.

[1950landy]

:cool:I think you are correct keith , when I enlarge the photo the 3rd L/R on the right which is behind the screen is the same colour on the bonnet as the L/R's on the left but the sides are lighter. Wayne

[incisor]

:cool:I think you are correct keith , when I enlarge the photo the 3rd L/R on the right which is behind the screen is the same colour on the bonnet as the L/R's on the left but the sides are lighter. Wayne

hmmmmmmmm

according to photoshop they are nothing alike

3rd right bonnet #c0c0c0

1st left bonnet #858585

yet the colour of the concrete at the front of the vehicles is within 1 shade

and the two chassis are within 2 shades..

:angel:

but i am no expert by any measure....

[andy_d110]

They were four rejected vehicles from when Stevie Wonder did work experience in the paint shop.

Poor Stevie grabbed a tin of "Dove Grey" from the upcoming 107" prototypes cupboard.

Instead of repainting them the usual light green, Rover opted with the unusual decision of leaving them grey and shipping one each to NSW, VIC, QLD and TASWEGIA.

And so the Grey 80" story began... ;)


This is my official explanation and may or may not be true.

[wrinklearthur]

Another quirk of Les Wells's Land Rover, He had shown me the knee action shock absorbers on it, He told me they were adjustable.

I always sure in the thought that Les had fitted them himself and that they were possibly from a '38 Chevrolet car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7CRAIGXow ( 8:15 )

But they were not the ones I remembered with the knurled knob on the end of the cylinder.

Then I go and find this ?????.

Ref; View topic - Restoration of Rover 1947 Sports Saloon (http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php't=10169&sid=c5c1923cfc13bf0c941b201dbc9a1117)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=58211&stc=1&d=1364242595

What other British cars had this style shock absorbers fitted?

Les prior to owning his Land Rover, had cut the back of a British built car and made it into a ute.
.

[incisor]

my morris minor had them

[1950landy]

MGB 's have them , even the Morris Marina's had them which was one of there major faults, they were fitted to a lot of british cars .Wayne

[incisor]

They were four rejected vehicles from when Stevie Wonder did work experience in the paint shop.

Poor Stevie grabbed a tin of "Dove Grey" from the upcoming 107" prototypes cupboard.

FYI

i ran a section of the pic thru some colourizing software

it uses it own algorithms but i had to tell it what colour to start with

and it came up with this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Avion8]

They were four rejected vehicles from when Stevie Wonder did work experience in the paint shop.

Poor Stevie grabbed a tin of "Dove Grey" from the upcoming 107" prototypes cupboard.

Instead of repainting them the usual light green, Rover opted with the unusual decision of leaving them grey and shipping one each to NSW, VIC, QLD and TASWEGIA.

And so the Grey 80" story began... ;)


This is my official explanation and may or may not be true.

I think those 4 may have met up at the Bakers Hill Motorama this past Sunday:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/234.jpg:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

There has always been this debate about the early greens, the supposed WWII surplus cockpit green, the Rover green ?2 and sage green. I'm wondering that this maybe an example of two of the paints being used simultaneously.

The other issue is that pre-productions were a different colour green to production models. We also know that pre-pros were still being made when production commenced (so Marco's pre-pro in Perth may actually be younger than 860004!) this may be early production and pre-production being assembled side by side.

Just surmising.

Diana

BTW: Inc, you have coloured the gal fittings.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Another quirk of Les Wells's Land Rover, He had shown me the knee action shock absorbers on it, He told me they were adjustable.

I always sure in the thought that Les had fitted them himself and that they were possibly from a '38 Chevrolet car.

But they were not the ones I remembered with the knurled knob on the end of the cylinder.

Then I go and find this ?????.

Ref;
What other British cars had this style shock absorbers fitted?

Les prior to owning his Land Rover, had cut the back of a British built car and made it into a ute.
.I seem to remember those shock absorbers on Worsleys right through the 50s models

[incisor]

BTW: Inc, you have coloured the gal fittings.

i didnt colour anything :p

the software gets you to pic one spot and tell it the colour you think it is and it does the rest.

it can do complex or simple...

i did a simple on a small portion and it took all night to do what it did :p

if i had done a complex rebuild it would still be going but be way more accurate on finer detail.

[andy_d110]

FYI

i ran a section of the pic thru some colourizing software

it uses it own algorithms but i had to tell it what colour to start with

and it came up with this

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=58213&stc=1&d=1364252739


So we don't have any grey ones then?

[incisor]

So we don't have any grey ones then?

i have no idea... ;)

and that wasn't my point of interest..

i simply said there are two different colours / shades in the pic

i know for a fact i don't know enough to argue what colour was what when or why.

i just tried to make sense of what i saw in the pic cause it didnt seem to match what i had been told..

[chazza]

I seem to remember those shock absorbers on Worsleys right through the 50s models

I think you might mean Wolseley!

Lever-arm dampers were fairly common on quite a few English cars such as Morris, Austin and some Wolseley (although my 6/80 has telescopics),

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

......
What other British cars had this style shock absorbers fitted?

Les prior to owning his Land Rover, had cut the back of a British built car and made it into a ute.
.

Lever action shock absorbers were pretty much standard from when first fitted to most cars in the twenties until at least the late fifties, probably in many cases up to the sixties. In the first generation of IFS British cars they were the upper wishbone.

Telescopic ones gradually replaced them as being cheaper in the 1950s.

John

[Carnut1100]

As well as being more effective.......

[wrinklearthur]

Because the lever type work in a arc they would run out of travel easily.

Not good if you want lots of articulation, their only good point is that they can be easily adjusted for a different damping rate.
.

[JDNSW]

Because the lever type work in a arc they would run out of travel easily.

Not good if you want lots of articulation, their only good point is that they can be easily adjusted for a different damping rate.
.

I have to disagree - the good point of the lever type is that they can be set to allow any amount of travel by changing the length of the arm and adjusting damping, where a telescopic type demands the end points be separated by more than half the total travel when the spring is fully compressed. This can be difficult to achieve and often leads to compromises such as angled dampers and low and vulnerable bottom attachment points.

However, despite this I prefer the telescopic type - the main failing of the lever type is that the shaft and bearings carry very high loads compared to anywhere on telescopics, and wear here usually leads to failure.

John

[incisor]

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/544482_3982860590001_254792868_n.jpg

for those that don't know, like i didn't till a few minutes ago

this pic is of the first weeks production at the Meteor Works, Solihull (anyone know a date?)

the future (200 vehicle per week) production line is still under construction on the right hand side of the pic.

learn something new every day :p

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I wonder if that rock has a part number?:angel: