Should I argue it in court?

[chris_mack]

Okay heres the scenario.

May 2012 I bought a 2007 Discovery 3 from a Kia dealer (guess they had it as a part ex) . Paid $45k for it.

Had a major issue with transfer box which they fixed under warranty, however that is not relevant to this situation just thought id add it.

July 2012 I get pulled up for speeding near Bairnsdale. fair enough, but the cop also tells me my rego is cancelled. No way I tell him, I bought this car a few months ago from a dealer they sold it to me with full years rego and they paid transfer (stamp duty) etc.

Anyway he lets me leave but tells me the system is telling him its unregistered, he will look into it but if thats the case he will send me a fine.

The next day i ring the dealer, speak to the salesman and explain the situation. he tells me thats crap, hes "on a special part of the vicroads website only dealers can look on, and its registered and fine" . Ok I was happy enough with that.

Around Aug or Sept 2012, a fine from original PC plod comes through the post. Unregistered. so i ring vicroads myself (should have done this in the first place) and speak to a guy who tells me the stamp duty was underpaid by $55 so the rego was cancelled, and either me or the dealer should have got a letter to this effect, but hes not sure which. Well i never got a letter, ring the dealer, get spoken to like absolute **** by the orginal salesman, who ends up yelling at me and hanging up.

So I take 10 mins to calm myself down, ring them back and ask to speak to the owner. He is politer although he still spoke to me like i was a child, and says he will look into it.

Couple of days later he rings back, claiming they never received a letter but if i go into a vicroads office then i can speak to a certain dept. (i forgot the name now) and they will cancel it. So I do that, but the lady says no, unless the letter that was sent out (she thinks one was sent to me) is returned to vicroads as undelivered, they wont have a bar of it. Well i can say with absolute certainty that I never recieved such a letter, and this whole issue in my opinion is not my fault in the slightest.

So now its at a point where I have to either pay the fine or go to court to contest it, which Im very tempted to do as a matter of principal as much as trying to avoid an $850 fine.

But is this likely to be one of those cases where they wont have a bar of it and I end up paying the original fine plus costs?

Opinions please?!

Chris

[Sussdisco]

if i was you i'd be giving it a shot with some decent representation, to me you have plenty solid legs to stand on, but im far from a judge :(

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Chris

Try and get the situation changed so the irresponsible ones get the costs and retribution fitting to the grief you have experienced.
.

[frantic]

Have you got the contract of sale or the ad where it says 12months rego? If so your laughing.
The other major problem is the car has not been transfered to your name:o Or did they do that after you rang them , changing the sales date to suit from May to july to avoid the other fine for not notifying the rta within 2 weeks(in nsw) after the sale.
Go check and see when it was actually transfered to your name.
We had only a minor issue similar to this where my wifes vw(demo with under 500k's) multivan was not transfered over until 12months later. The dealer avoided the fine by telling the rta it was sold 1 week before rego not 11months ago. We benefited by only paying 1 toll out of a dozen over 12 months.

The sales date is very easy for you to prove, you have the contract, or bill of sale, you also have the bank details of when you paid for the disco. If they underpaid the stamp duty and the rego got cancelled the note should have gone to both you and the dealer to sort out who owned the disco.

[Sitec]

Wow, that sucks. Kinda sums up Kia Dealers. I'm with Sussdisco on this one, but my 'forward' and 'blunt' character has dug me some holes before! You could always do one of those 'hold up a big piece of card' on Facebook... It would have to go along the lines of... "Kia Dealer (name here) sells me car with rego, get done for no rego 8 weeks later and now dealer denies all knowledge of it. Will go to court if I get 10000 likes...." You then take a print of the page and show the dealer owner... At this point, if he has any sense he'll pay the fine... If not, court it is, oh and that Facebook page goes live! Have been tempted with this one for Telstra!! :twisted:

[Disco Muppet]

That's shocking mate, hope they cough up eventually for you.
What I'd be doing would be building as solid a case as I can.
Get your hands on whatever documentation you can, sales receipts, ad listings that mention the 12 months rego, ring up vicroads and see if you can get the date that they transfered the rego to your name, etc.
THEN approach the dealer with your documentation, try to keep it level with them too.
Benefit of this is if they're unwilling to play ball then you should have the necessary documentation to prove your innocence in court.
I find it's normally better to try everything possible before you roll out the big guns and start getting nasty, hopefully it won't come to that :)
But if it does, you've got plenty of bad press for that particular dealer that you can use :)
Best of luck!
Muppet

[Eevo]

with car rego, its the drivers responsibility (you) to make sure it is actually registered. not rely on the dealer telling you.

i sympathise with you, sound like the usual dodgy dealer, but i dont think the law will rule in your favour.

[chris_mack]

I actually no longer own the car, sold it in November. But when I rang vicroads in Aug/ Sept after receiving the fine through the post, I immediately paid the $55 shortfall so it was immediately registered.

Il ring vicroads tomorrow and see if i can get them to send me copies of all documentation during my ownership of the car (dates of letters, phone calls etc.)

Its a very frustrating situation, for starters the fact its a huge fine for something essentially out of my control, but moreover the thing that makes me the most angry is the way I have been dealt with by the dealer in all aspects since I bought the car

(I had the transfer case replaced under warranty about a month after I bought it, they did eventually replace it but took a lot of hastle and more of them treating me like ****, however that isnt relevant to this situation).

[Disco Muppet]

It's still the responsibility of the Dealer to transfer the registration if that's part of the deal that's been agreed upon and paid for.

[Eevo]

It's still the responsibility of the Dealer to transfer the registration if that's part of the deal that's been agreed upon and paid for.

the court matter will be for chris mack driving unregistered.

the issue of the dealer not transferred registration is a separate issue and is a civil matter if chris wants to pursue that in the civil small claims court. not a criminal one.

[chris_mack]

So is this the way they are likely to look at it in court? Rather than look at the facts and imagine what any reasonable person would do, they will say it was my responsibilty to double check it was registered?

(It was unregistered before I bought it, so I bought it with brand new plates, brand new rego sticker, transferred into my name etc. I never had to go to vicroads at all the rego document had my name printed on it. Really how many people in that situation would think "hmmm looks fishy I better double check it!" )

Sorry if i seem like im arguing eevo i appreciate the info its just bloody frustrating if that is the way it is!

[Cobber]

Well i never got a letter, ring the dealer, get spoken to like absolute **** by the orginal salesman, who ends up yelling at me and hanging up.that kind of behaviour is almost an admission of fault :thumbsdown:

For the sake of $850 it's probably best to get everything together then go into the dealer and sort it out that way. If they still don't want to play fair, then take it further. :)

[russ55]

I'd contact the LMCT mob and the VACC. They should be able to make a discreet phone call to the Kia Dealer.

[dullbird]

well you were caught driving an unregiistered vechile.. so you have done wrong in the eyes of the law like stated above

I personally would be pleading guilty with explanation.

then explain the circumstances as to what happened and why you were unaware you were not registered etc etc.

would be helpful if you have a long and clean driving record too

the magistrate would likely (if its anything like NSW) take your circumstances in to consideration and reduce the fine or if your really lucky throw it out. they could also say suck it up.

If I were you I would seek legal consultation and contest it. I think you have a good chance.

[mick88]

with car rego, its the drivers responsibility (you) to make sure it is actually registered. not rely on the dealer telling you.

i sympathise with you, sound like the usual dodgy dealer, but i dont think the law will rule in your favour.

It might be the case that it's the responsibility of the owner to check that the vehicle is registered but he has taken in good faith from a person that is supposedly a professional vehicle trader that the vehicle is registered.
How many of us buy new cars and then go straight home and ring the motor registry office to confirm what the trader has told us is true. We drive the vehicle for 11 or so months then a registration renewal arrives in the mail!

Ask Vicroads for a copy of the letter and proof of who they sent it too.
As it would have been after the contract date and as you are the registered owner of the vehicle, it should have been sent to you.

I would persue it!

[Michael2]

If VIC Roads was underpaid, then to whom did they refund the rego money?

If they didn't refund it, then does that mean they accepted the rego, but were waiting on another payment?

If the dealer got a refund, have they in effect stolen your rego money?

The VACC suggestion sounds good, I told my bro to call the VACC when an LPG installer damaged his motor. They called the guy back and gave him a heads up that a complaint might be coming, so that he was prepared with a hostile and angry rebuttal - so I wouldn't trust the VACC "boys club" again.

If you get your rego refund - does it pay the fine?

[chris_mack]

If they didn't refund it, then does that mean they accepted the rego, but were waiting on another payment?

This is what happened. So as soon as I rang vicroads and paid the outstanding $55 my car was registered again.

[Eevo]

So is this the way they are likely to look at it in court? Rather than look at the facts and imagine what any reasonable person would do, they will say it was my responsibilty to double check it was registered?

(It was unregistered before I bought it, so I bought it with brand new plates, brand new rego sticker, transferred into my name etc. I never had to go to vicroads at all the rego document had my name printed on it. Really how many people in that situation would think "hmmm looks fishy I better double check it!" )

Sorry if i seem like im arguing eevo i appreciate the info its just bloody frustrating if that is the way it is!
not at all, i understand where your coming from.

i would be doubling checking with a lawyer whos specialises in traffic matters.

the criminal court jurisdiction is criminal matters, driving unregistered.
the dealer info, although true, isnt within their jurisdiction. it may get you the min fine but it wont get you off, as in their eyes, you broke the law.

[Eevo]

I personally would be pleading guilty with explanation.

then explain the circumstances as to what happened and why you were unaware you were not registered etc etc.


the magistrate would likely (if its anything like NSW) take your circumstances in to consideration and reduce the fine or if your really lucky throw it out. they could also say suck it up.

If I were you I would seek legal consultation and contest it. I think you have a good chance.
ive been to court 5-6 times, all for traffic matters, did my research and defended myself (but i dont recommend defending yourself) and won all my cases.

ive never seen someone plead guilty and provide an explanation and have the case dismissed. its always guilty with a fine (can be min) and recorded conviction.

[Eevo]

It might be the case that it's the responsibility of the owner to check that the vehicle is registered but he has taken in good faith from a person that is supposedly a professional vehicle trader that the vehicle is registered.
How many of us buy new cars and then go straight home and ring the motor registry office to confirm what the trader has told us is true. We drive the vehicle for 11 or so months then a registration renewal arrives in the mail!

Ask Vicroads for a copy of the letter and proof of who they sent it too.
As it would have been after the contract date and as you are the registered owner of the vehicle, it should have been sent to you.

I would persue it!
good faith doesnt really exist in the eyes of the law.

chris would first need to prove it was the dealers responsibility to transfer/rego the car and that the dealer didnt fullfil their end of the contract. i think this would need to be done in civil court.

but as said before, you need a lawyer for that.

[dullbird]

ive been to court 5-6 times, all for traffic matters, did my research and defended myself (but i dont recommend defending yourself) and won all my cases.

ive never seen someone plead guilty and provide an explanation and have the case dismissed. its always guilty with a fine (can be min) and recorded conviction.

when I say thrown out I mean in the sense of a good behaviour bond slap on the wrist:) yes still recorded....i have seen people get off with out a fine and only had to pay court costs..
Not saying this is what will happen and I'm no expert just saying what I have witnessed:)

the fact is if he was caught in an unregistered car he has broken the law. so no sense pleading not guilty if those are the facts because unless he can actually prove he wasnt driving said unregistered car I dont see how he can plead any other way if contesting in court..

[minibloodhound]

From an (ex) police point of view, every time you jump into the car it is the responsibility of the driver to make sure the vehicle is road worthy each time you drive it. That includes making sure the vehicle is registered. Although having said that people get off at court for just about everything when they are dead guilty - case in point is Mathew Newton.

[digger]

If you have rego paperwork in your name stating 12 months rego (eg still covered) then take that with you and plead not guilty as you did not intend nor could be reasonably expected to know it was not fully registered as per paperwork.

I would even suggest you try and make an appointment with police proecutor to speak with them and tell them all the facts...this may make things easier for you in court as they wont think youre trying to pull a fast one etc and may even give you some points of advice as to what you need etc. (You are not saying they (the police) are wrong, but that you have been dealt with dishonestly by the dealer causing you to be in this situation.)

You can also submit a STAT DEC to prosecution stating you didnt recieve any such letter (rego) and they may make enqs with rego mob to see who the notice was posted to and when etc. (better of course if you can submit the stat dec and copies of the paperwork/notesfrom rego mob if possible,)

if nothing else its extenuating circumstances, and worth a shot I reckon, but in the long run technically you did break the law! (I think if you can produce the original rego papers, ads etc you have a good chance)

[rovercare]

I'd contest

Minimum penalty for drive unregistered was $250 plus court costs.... Last time I contested the same charge;)

[mikehzz]

I'd contest as well and go to court with the rego papers. Unless they sent the cancellation to you via registered post then you can't be expected to know for certain that your car is unregistered as your documentation says it is registered.

[Carnut1100]

Fight the bastards!

[1976_michelle]

fight em or smear em, news mobs are fond of dodgy car dealers

[Sandgroper]

fight em or smear em, news mobs are fond of dodgy car dealers

Exactly, I'd be ringing Today Tonight or A Current Affair, they're always on the lookout for stories like that, I reckon you'd get a huge apology with offers of compensation about five minutes after the dealership received a phone call from either of these shows.

[Basil135]

It was unregistered before I bought it, so I bought it with brand new plates, brand new rego sticker, transferred into my name etc. I never had to go to vicroads at all the rego document had my name printed on it. Really how many people in that situation would think "hmmm looks fishy I better double check it!"




Considering this, I think you would have a good case. I would take Diggers advice, and see if you can speak with the police prior to going to court.

There is no point going to the dealer to get them to pay the fine, as I suspect you will also be gaining (or loosing) demerit points from your licence. So, in order to avoid this, you will have to go to court.

If you are in the RACV, they should have a members legal department that may be able to give you some advice over the phone. I have used the RAA one, and it is free.

The only sticking point that I can see, is where did the letter from VicRoads go? Do they have to supply proof of delivery, or only proof of postage? Not sure on this one.

BUT - you have an official document stating your rego is paid, and transferred into your name. You have a current rego sticker, and you have new plates.

What I find strange is, how did the dealer get all this, when they obviously underpaid the stamp duty??? Not knowing the internal workings of VicRoads, it all is rather confusing, really.

[Eevo]

I would even suggest you try and make an appointment with police proecutor to speak with them and tell them all the facts...this may make things easier for you in court as they wont think youre trying to pull a fast one etc and may even give you some points of advice as to what you need etc.

this too. in SA most of the prosecutors ive spoken to are great. its not personal to them, its just their job. they may be willing to withdrawn the charge to save everyones times.

the stat dec idea is good. not needed as you affirm in court, but it shouldnt hurt.

[WhiteD3]

Pay it.

Its going to cost you a lot more to fight it and the stress involved could kill you, not to mention the affect it'll have on those around you.

Don't get me wrong, my blood would be up too and it's just plain wrong. But fight the battles you can win and walk away from the others.

[korg20000bc]

I got stopped for a breath test here in Tassie and the officer went to his vehicle and stated, when he returned, that I was driving an unregistered vehicle and the vehicle should be impounded immediately. I was surprised and dismayed. I definitely hadn't received a reminder letter and hadn't thought to check the registration date.
The officer said that he believed it was a genuine oversight and said that he was going to look in "that direction" (away from the car) and when he turned around i should be down the road headed for the nearest ServiceTas to sort it out.

Thank you officer for your discretion.

[Eevo]

I got stopped for a breath test here in Tassie and the officer went to his vehicle and stated, when he returned, that I was driving an unregistered vehicle and the vehicle should be impounded immediately. I was surprised and dismayed. I definitely hadn't received a reminder letter and hadn't thought to check the registration date.
The officer said that he believed it was a genuine oversight and said that he was going to look in "that direction" (away from the car) and when he turned around i should be down the road headed for the nearest ServiceTas to sort it out.

Thank you officer for your discretion.

in SA that wont happen according to the officers ive spoken to
if a cop puts a rego into the computer and its out of date, the rego is flagged with supervision or someone. if the officer doesnt do the no rego dance, he/she gets a please explain why they let someone drive off in an unrego vehicle. the vehicle is not allowed to be driven home, even if its only a street away/around the corner.



how many times do you think a cop hears the same old story, oh i didnt know, i didnt look, its my partners cars, my baby is sick, my next door neighbours dogs uncle's 2nd cousin removed, priest was going to register it this morning.


btw, in SA we dont have rego stickers anymore.

[Bazzle218]

Its up to the prosecutor to prove you committed and offence to the legal standard of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. The issuing officer willl have to complete a brief of evidence prior to Court. You are intitled to a copy of this evidence prior to the court date. In Qld about 14 days. The officer will also require evidence from Vic Roads as to who what when the notification was sent. If their is insufficent evidence and the likley hood of a failed prosecution a compedent Prosecutor or Brief checker withh withdraw the matter prior to Court. In that instance you face no Court costs. What have you got to loose. A soliciter will cost you just to look at it. Google, Vic Courts case law and look at the offence you have been issued with and outcomes. I would imagine that the issue of notification has been before the Courts before.;) By the way i'm not a solicitor so any advice is general in nature. I did serve 15 yrs in the thin blue line;)

[Eevo]

Its up to the prosecutor to prove you committed and offence to the legal standard of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.
that bit seems simple.

was the car unregistered at the time? according to dept of transport it was
was chris driving the car at the time? according to the officer who pulled the car over, chris was the driver.
did chris have trade plate? hasnt been mentioned, im guessing no.


why question of why the car wasnt registered isnt relevant.

[korg20000bc]

how many times do you think a cop hears the same old story, oh i didnt know, i didnt look, its my partners cars, my baby is sick, my next door neighbours dogs uncle's 2nd cousin removed, priest was going to register it this morning.

While I understand that, who wants to be driving an unregistered car? If you have anything to loose, that is.

[frantic]

that bit seems simple.

was the car unregistered at the time? according to dept of transport it was but Chris had new plates AND an in date sticker from the same authority without adequate notification
was chris driving the car at the time? according to the officer who pulled the car over, chris was the driver.
did chris have trade plate? hasnt been mentioned, im guessing no.


why question of why the car wasnt registered isnt relevant.
Chris didn't have a trade plate he had NEW plates as according to the paperwork issued to him it was registered, that is why he was driving it.
Now how rare is it for a computer to say its printed and posted an item but either the printer was not loaded/blocked , the ink was out or another fault occurred ? 1/2 the MSIC cards where lost over the 2011/12 dec-jan period and had to be reprinted and resent as the comp/printer stuffed up.

[Basil135]

Pay it.

Its going to cost you a lot more to fight it and the stress involved could kill you, not to mention the affect it'll have on those around you.

Don't get me wrong, my blood would be up too and it's just plain wrong. But fight the battles you can win and walk away from the others.

Understand what you are saying here... BUT, on your insurance paperwork, you generally have to tell them if you have been "Convicted" of any traffic offences.

By just paying it, you are essentially pleading guilty, and thus, would have to declare it.

Plus, dont forget the points you would get (loose) on your licence.

Now, ok, you were a bad boy & got caught speeding. That isnt in doubt, and neither have you contested it.

What they are looking to do you on, is the "unregistered / uninsured" bit, and that quite often is seen as a bigger no no by the powers that be...

[chris_mack]

my understanding is that in vic no rego is just a fine $700 or so, with no demerit points. the only reason it is up to over $800 is my own fault because i havnt paid the fine yet so its snowballed and theyve added fees.

[Eevo]

so when is sentencing?

[Ausfree]

Having read through this Thread, I think you have been very badly treated indeed. Now if the dealer is a Kia dealer (in other words they sell new cars) I would think Kia Australia would be very interested in the way one of their dealers is treating their customers. Yes, I know you didn't buy a new Kia, but just the same, you deserve to be treated with courtesy and respect.

I recently bought a brand new Kia and Kia Australia sent me an online questionaire to fill in on how I was treated by the local dealer, here, which indicated to me they take great interest in the treatment of Kia dealer customers. If I were you I would contact Kia Australia and tell them of your experience with this particular dealer.

I know this doesn't help you with your original question, but it might be another line to follow to make the dealer accountable to their supplier.:D

My 02c worth anyway.

[Tank]

If I was you (and yes I have done this myself) I would front the Magistrate on your own, with as much documentation you can get to back your story. Then just plain and simple describe the events (with a bit of emotion) as you have here and leave it in the hands of the Magistrate.
If you contest it with a solicitor, you will be up for his fee, the coppers expenses (that pulled you over) + his wages and the cost of a subpoena for any documents from the Kia dealer and the RTA. After all that you will get an adjournment and more solicitors costs, that fine is starting to look fairly cheap by this time. If you fail doing it yourself it will cost you $52 court costs and the fine, which you can ask for time to pay, if you win probably only cost you court costs ($52), If you win with a solicitor it will cost you $thousands, with the same result, give it a go, good luck, Regards Frank.