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Shortie
21st February 2013, 02:43 PM
Girl question :D

Why are 3.2 tonne bow shackles more expensive than 4.7 tonne ones? I would have thought it to be the other way.

And which ones would I get to go with a 9,000kg snatch strap?

Though my forum name is Shortie I've upgraded from the Puma 90 to a 300 Tdi 110 :D

Thanks Ellen

tonyci
21st February 2013, 03:20 PM
I use 4.7 for no other reason then, the stronger the better. I wonder if the price differential was unique to the outlet or brand you looked at ?.
Cheers
Tony

Shortie
21st February 2013, 04:07 PM
No, that is why I'm confused, the 3.2 is more expensive whichever brand I pick and at a few different outlets :confused:

tonyci
21st February 2013, 04:32 PM
Never noticed that before. Maybe they make fewer of the 3.2s. I am with you confused.
Cheers
Tony

101RRS
21st February 2013, 05:58 PM
In my experience the 4.7 is more expensive - by way of example at Supercheap the 3.2t is $12.99 and the 4.7t is $15.99.

see page 2 of this link recovery shackle - Search Results - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/search-results.aspx?keywords=recovery+shackle)

Must be a WA thing.

Garry

Slunnie
21st February 2013, 06:10 PM
Not sure, but I like to the biggest that will have the pin fit through the recovery point eye.

debruiser
21st February 2013, 06:16 PM
My guess would be that they sell LOTS more of the larger rating.... SO they would make more hence can afford to sell them cheaper. It happens with lots of things, including tyres, musical instruments..... lots of stuff.

Tank
21st February 2013, 06:39 PM
If the shackles you looked at are actually rated by a Govt. dept. they will have thicker dia. pins than the body of the shackle, if the pins are thinner than the body of the shackle, don't buy them.
"Rated" shackles will have embossed on the body of the shackle either the WLL (Working Load Limit) or the SWL (Safe Working Load) in Tonnes.
Now the SWL/WLL (in tonnes) is used as a Safety Factor (SF), which means the shackle is loaded till destruction occurs, the tonnage at which destruction occurs is known as the Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS).
Rated shackles have a SF of around 5, depends on the work it is to be used for, for instance any rigging gear (shackles, cables, straps, etc.) that are used for lifting people (lift/hoist) will have a SF of 10, a guy wire supporting a tower/aerial would have a SF of 1 or 2.
A SF of 5 is for General Purpose work, so your "rated" 3.2T SWL/WLL shackle would have a GBS of 16 Tonnes, that is if the shackle is new, the SF allows for wear and tear, but gives you a bit of leeway, but if a shackle is used incorrectly and most 4WD recovery points with horizontal pin holes put dangerous stresses on shackles. Shackles are designed to be loaded in the straight ahead plane ONLY, no exceptions. so when a shackle is fitted to a horizontal pin hole recovery point and loaded off line then the body of the shackle gets distorted and the pin becomes hard to remove. Recovery points should have the pin hole vertical to allow the shackle to align itself with the line of the load. So if you have to undo your shackle with a bar/shifter, it is dangerous and should be scrapped (cut).
Now to really confuse things, items like Snatch Straps which are illegal in the Rigging industry and ARE NOT RATED, except for their destruction point or GBS are sold in Australia with no SWL/WLL printed/attached, so no SF built in. The problem with this bull**** method of marketing is the average 4WDer will gladly use the snatch strap up to and beyond it's GBS, this is dangerous and probably illegal.
Winch retailers do the same they advertise a winch with 10mm IWRC cable as capable of 12000lbs. cap. (5.5T) when the cable has a SWL/WLL of 1000/1200kg (depending on quality), so the average 4WDer reckons he's right to pull 5.5 Tonnes, which is around the GBS of the winch cable. No wonder there are so many breakages and damage/injuries around 4WD winching.
So to be on the safe side, make sure that the snatch strap is the weakest link when snatching, I would suggest that 4.7T "rated" shackles which have a GBS of 23.5 Tonnes should be the go with a snatch strap of 8000kgs GBS (17.6 tonnes), BUT ONLY if the shackle is used correctly and the recovery point is capable of handling the load. In all truth I would use every method I knew to recover a vehicle BEFORE using a snatch strap, as a last resort, Regards Frank.

roverrescue
21st February 2013, 08:11 PM
truth I would use every method I knew to recover a vehicle BEFORE using a snatch strap, as a last resort, Regards Frank.


Frank this should be imbossed into the steering wheel of every 4wd made!

S

Shortie
21st February 2013, 10:40 PM
Ok, so I don't need or want this stuff in my vehicle then.

Not that I ever get stuck :angel: ok sometimes I forget I'm so tall get stuck in branches with my roof rack :p

mools
22nd February 2013, 01:41 AM
Shortie,

I think you may need and therefore want 'this' stuff in your vehicle, eventually. It's all part of a tool kit for vehicle recovery. Successful and safe recovery is about using the right tool for the right job in the right way. In order to do that takes some practical experience and some theoretical understanding of the physics (mechanics) involved. To some extent Tank's post is very helpful in respect to the latter.

My personal opinion is that a snatch strap is dangerous in the same way that fire arms, sharp objects and fire are - don't trust them to children to the ignorant (unless supervised) or idiots (under any circumstance).

My personal experience is that a snatch strap, when used in a controlled manner, can be a quick and effective way to recover a vehicle and maintain progress. Similarly, experience has also shown me that uncontrolled (poorly thought through and executed / inappropriate) use of a snatch strap is extremely dangerous.

Part of safely using this type of equipment is acquiring what you need, you have taken a good step asking about what you don't know and you now know a bit more. Another important part is maintaining it and knowing its history / capabilities - if your going to use a snatch and shackles let them be quality ones that you know the history and capabilities of (the number of times I have declined to use other peoples!). Finally, don't let the first time you use one be when you 'need' to use it - that's a recipe for disaster. Get some training and experience first.

Training you can get in a number of ways, but don't let your self be scared by others into not doing anything and therefore being ignorant. To put this in perspective. I have a rock climbing / mountaineering background and like most am almost entirely self trained in that respect. 4WD ing is like any adventure pursuit, although statistically much safer than many, you learn what works and what doesn't best doing it, through experience. In order to do it in the first place you want to educate yourself as to the inherent risks as best you can and have a base level of equipment and knowledge. People, books, experience it all counts.

Tank I know to be a professionally trained rigger and I've learnt a thing or two from his posts in the past (you'd do we'll to look up some of his previous posts) but I view the whole thing slightly differently. I would doubt that there would be a single piece of my climbing equipment that would be legal in the rigging industry, but none of it is inherently unsafe. It's how it's used that makes it safe or unsafe. It is entirely down to the skill of the operator how safe it is. In undertaking an activity that is inherently unsafe the operator must decide what is at stake and balance that against the level of risk they are prepared to accept under the circumstance. In making that judgement knowledge is key.

The problem with 4WD equipment is not a marketing problem but, as see it, more a problem with the consumer, their level of ignorance and their reticence to educate themselves. The information provided about the product is not necessarily marketing it is just information, knowing what it means and how to use the information is entirely the responsibility of the user. The trouble with 4WD ing is that a vast majority of people seem to not appreciate the risks involved. I think it's to do with the proximity of familiar things, like a comfortable vehicle, making it hard for people to realise that they are out of their natural comfort zone / realm of experience, people just fail to switch on.

Do the theory, cross check your sources, get some practical experience and steer clear of idiots you'll be fine. Oh and if you don't carry a shovel then your an idiot.

Ian.

Red90
22nd February 2013, 02:01 AM
There is nothing wrong with using a snatch strap. It needs to be used properly and safely and everyone should have suitable training. All of the attachment equipment must be stronger than the strap. Straps must never be joined together with shackles.

Normally shackles are the last thing to worry about as it is rare that people have attachment points on their vehicles that are stronger than the shackles. Making sure that your vehicle attachment points are at least four times stronger than the stall rating of the winch and at least twice as strong as any snatch strap used is the important item to look at.

Tank
22nd February 2013, 11:09 AM
The point being missed here is whether the recovery points on both vehicles is/are safe. How would you determine safe when there is no way that you can know what forces are going to be applied. No 2 snatches are going to be the same, there are too many variables involved. In most cases shackles are used in a way that makes them the weakest point, regardless of SWL/WLL, if you pull sideways on a shackle with it's pin jammed in a horizontal recovery pin hole, then SWL/WLL don't even come into play.
How do you know a recovery point is "Rated", rated means it has been tested, how do we know whether the tow/snatch vehicle has an adequate recovery point.
I have seen a shackle (3.5T SWL) torn apart by a snatch strap with half the GBS, why because the shackle was used incorrectly.
I have seen so called rated recovery points torn off a chassis rail, I have seen a whole bullbar torn off a bogged vehicle and thrown 30 or more metres up the track. People have been killed by Rated recovery points and shackles during snatching operations
There are no guidelines for snatching as no 2 snatches are the same, I would suggest anyone doing a snatch should fit tether lines to each end of the straps to limit how far rated recovery points and even bullbars can travel on the end of a snatch strap, when you go along to buy a set of Rated recovery points ask the seller for the test data that was required for their recovery point to be Rated, any bets they will have no idea of what you are talking about, Regards Frank.

Eevo
22nd February 2013, 11:32 AM
if you dont want to snatch and want to stay bogged, thats your choice.

Tank
22nd February 2013, 12:03 PM
if you dont want to snatch and want to stay bogged, thats your choice.
So snatching is the only way to get out of a bog, yeh sure it is, regards Frank.

Eevo
22nd February 2013, 12:13 PM
So snatching is the only way to get out of a bog, yeh sure it is, regards Frank.

whats quicker, cheaper and easier?


also, ive been talking to several 4wd instructors in the last few months and i ask the same question. snatch or winch? snatch wins easily.

clubagreenie
22nd February 2013, 03:05 PM
I'll winch myself out and catch up thanks.

In relation to bow shackles, I see rigging rating cards that show them being loaded with two slings for longer loads. With details for included angle variation in relation to rating value. I realise on a single pull you can't cross load but what's the deal with essentially a 3 point load.

For instance if one used a bow shackle at the rear to anchor a vehicle back to two points, with the pin to the vehicle (horizontally) and two slings back to two points with an appropriate included angle. Can you see an issue with this?

Eevo
22nd February 2013, 03:08 PM
I'll winch myself out

many of the tracks i been on, no trees to winch off of. you would need another vehicle.

Tank
22nd February 2013, 04:42 PM
many of the tracks i been on, no trees to winch off of. you would need another vehicle.
Well the vehicle with the winch goes second, you still need 2 vehicles to snatch, Regards Frank.

Tank
22nd February 2013, 05:46 PM
I'll winch myself out and catch up thanks.

In relation to bow shackles, I see rigging rating cards that show them being loaded with two slings for longer loads. With details for included angle variation in relation to rating value. I realise on a single pull you can't cross load but what's the deal with essentially a 3 point load.

For instance if one used a bow shackle at the rear to anchor a vehicle back to two points, with the pin to the vehicle (horizontally) and two slings back to two points with an appropriate included angle. Can you see an issue with this?
In most cases where slings are spread out over distance which caused the sling eyes to bear on the sides of the shackle body, you could increase the length of the slings to bring the eyes back into the apex of the bow section of the shackle. The correct way would be to use a spreader beam.
I see what your point is though, my point is that if a bow shackle is fitted to a recovery point and the towee/wincher is pulling at an angle off straight ahead, then the shackle will try to align itself under load. This causes the pin to jamb in the horizontal recovery point hole and the sling eye to slide to the side of the shaclke body. The loads created reduce, by a great amount the strength of the shackle.
In this scenario the pin in the shackle is subjected to bending forces and shear strain on the thread of the pin, which it is not designed to accomodate and also the recovery point as well, how many have you seen bent one way or another. If the horizontal holes in recovery points were larger diameter than most on the market, the shackle pin would be able to swing, at least partially in line. But what is wrong with designing a recovery point with the holes vertical, is it because it is easier and cheaper to manufacture a horizontal pin hole recovery point (Eevo would like this ), of course it is, it would take more thought and money to manufacture a correct recovery point and get it Rated by a competent authority, Regards Frank.

Slunnie
22nd February 2013, 07:43 PM
Personally, I think winching is more dangerous than snatching. Just about all of the time the thing to break during a snatch is the strap. That may hit the rear door or the bar and then we're done.

Winches..... the weakest link is the cable and thats got a bit more whip in it when it lets go, they go anywhere when they let go and will do more damage to a person who is further away. IF you're a regular wincher, I would highly recommend dynema etc that will just drop rather than wire.

Hand winching... now that flips me completely out irrespective of the overload pins.

The good old army chains..... if you want your chassis ripped apart.

Tank
22nd February 2013, 10:49 PM
Personally, I think winching is more dangerous than snatching. Just about all of the time the thing to break during a snatch is the strap. That may hit the rear door or the bar and then we're done.

Winches..... the weakest link is the cable and thats got a bit more whip in it when it lets go, they go anywhere when they let go and will do more damage to a person who is further away. IF you're a regular wincher, I would highly recommend dynema etc that will just drop rather than wire.

Hand winching... now that flips me completely out irrespective of the overload pins.

The good old army chains..... if you want your chassis ripped apart.
The snatch strap breaking is the preferred option, but how many people have been injured/killed because the recovery point, whatever type has been weaker than the snatch strap. How many U-Tube videos showing bullbars flying up the track on the end of a snatch strap, or the bloke with the shackle, still attached to the snatch strap, embedded in his rear door mounted spare.
Winch cables break because they are NOT used to their SWL/WLL capacity, why, becuase winches are sold with advertised capacities of 5T with a 10mm (or less) cable which on a good day has a Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) of 5T. So your average punter reckons he will get his monies worth and try and winch 5T and then has a whinge because it broke. Of course it will break it's Guaranteed to (GBS).
Now who sells a Rated recovery point and can guarantee that it has been fitted correctly and the mounting point is up to the task. No-one sells a rated recovery point, name one retailer that can prove that thier recovery point has been tested by the appropriate authority and meets or exceeds whatever Auistralian Standard (if there is one).
So as far as I am concerned winching is infinitely safer than snatching, esp when you take into account the greater loads imposed on recovery points during snatch recoveries and the FACT that it is impossible to have any confidence in the structural integrity of the recovery point or how and where it is mounted. These same mounting points and recovery points are not usually ripped off and flung at light speed towards some unfortuante onlooker during a winching recovery, IMHO, Regards Frank.

Slunnie
22nd February 2013, 10:53 PM
Each to their own. :D

Disco Muppet
23rd February 2013, 01:34 AM
Personally, I think winching is more dangerous than snatching. Just about all of the time the thing to break during a snatch is the strap. That may hit the rear door or the bar and then we're done.

Winches..... the weakest link is the cable and thats got a bit more whip in it when it lets go, they go anywhere when they let go and will do more damage to a person who is further away. IF you're a regular wincher, I would highly recommend dynema etc that will just drop rather than wire.

Hand winching... now that flips me completely out irrespective of the overload pins.

The good old army chains..... if you want your chassis ripped apart.

Been talking to our mutual growling, swearing, hovering smoke cloud slunnie? :D

Personally I like winching, as it's something I can do myself. Sure, it can take a while longer and it can be bloody hard work, but that's just me. Not much good having a snatch strap without another vehicle, and with a bit of creative thinking and elbow grease you can turn pretty much anything into a winch point.
However, I've changed enough guitar strings in my time to see the effects of any sort of wire under tension when it snaps. Got the scars to prove it too.
I'd rather trust myself to not cock up a winch recovery than trust someone else to do a snatch recovery properly.
That said, if I knew they did things properly and was personally satisfied with the set up I'd have no problem accepting a snatch recovery.
Cheers
Muppet

Eevo
23rd February 2013, 03:46 AM
Well the vehicle with the winch goes second, you still need 2 vehicles to snatch, Regards Frank.

yeah and snatching takes 30 seconds, winching 5-10min.
i dont like wasting time where i dont have to

Eevo
23rd February 2013, 03:48 AM
it would take more thought and money to manufacture a correct recovery point and get it Rated by a competent authority
when i was looking for rated recovery points, with eng cert, nothing was available, no guarantees.

imho someone talking about rated recovery points has been smoking too much of the funky stuff.

edit: i see what you wrote later on and i agree

Eevo
23rd February 2013, 03:50 AM
How many U-Tube videos showing bullbars flying up the track on the end of a snatch strap, or the bloke with the shackle, still attached to the snatch strap, embedded in his rear door mounted spare.

you cant blame the product when the idiots are using it wrong. we all know not to attach to bullbars/towballs

Red90
23rd February 2013, 05:22 AM
There is nothing wrong with using a snatch strap. It needs to be used properly and safely and everyone should have suitable training. All of the attachment equipment must be stronger than the strap. Straps must never be joined together with shackles.
Please read the second sentence. If that is not clear or you do not really understand what it means, please do not ever perform and recovery with a strap.

As to suitably rated attachment points. Either make sure they are purchased from a reputable manufacturer or have someone that is capable of a bit of stress analysis to look at what you propose or have. Any engineer worth 14 cents can give an informed strength opinion in 15 minutes.

uninformed
25th February 2013, 11:43 AM
Frank, Ive seen you mention may times about the recovery pin hole being horizontal and this no good. I get what you are saying, but surely it works both ways. I mean, how often are we recovering on flat ground. I have seen many times cables being pulled higher/lower due to uneven ground, anchor location. Would it be ok to have the hole horizontal if using 2 recovery points on the one vehicle, each inline with a chassis rail, and a bridel and pully block joining the 2?

Tank
25th February 2013, 05:35 PM
Most hill recoveries involve 1 vehicle towing, the other towed and say 25 metres apart and usually on the same hill (read slope/angle) so the cable between the vehicles would be parallel to the ground.
With my preferred way you would have a collared eye-bolt on the front of the bullbar attached to an anchor plate in/on the end of the chassis rails.
I can't envisage any scenario where your point is or would be valid, unless 1 vehicle was at the base of a sheer cliff and the other was at the top of same cliff.
Using the horizontal recovery points, the subject of this Post, if the towing vehicle was only slightly higher than the towed vehicle the cable or rope or strap would be rubbing/jammed hard up against the bottom of the bumper/bullbar. It would definitely damage a stock plastic bumper and would sever a nylon winch rope or strap. Draw a line from the recovery point hole forward and see how close it is to the bar, in some cases I would say that the rope/strap will be touching the bar on level ground.
2 things to remember.
One. 99% of the time both vehicles are on the same hill, which means both are on the same angle with the rope parallel to the ground.
Two, the underbody and on chassis horizontal recovery points will put the towing cable very close to the bottom of the bullbar, which leaves it vulnerable to being chafed/squashed as the vehicle goes into dips, esp. Dyneema type ropes and snatch straps. Also if you are bogged to the chassis you will need to dig under the vehicle to find and attach strap/cable.
Some of these recovery points hang down 3" to 4" below chassis rail height, reducing ground clearance and ready to hang up on anything in the way, as it seems the fashion to leave shackles hanging in the recovery points there is great potential to damage them as well.
Eye bolts (Collared or swivel) on the front of a bullbar are versatile, can be removed for city driving, have large pin hole diameters (50mm), which allows the shackle pin to move (and not Jamb) and align itself with the direction of the pull, are usually clear of mud when bogged and allow a shackle to be used as it was designed to be, hope this explains what I'm about, Regards Frank.

uninformed
25th February 2013, 07:29 PM
Seems a little lost in my transtlation, or lack of words. I ment recovery points either mounted to front bullbar, or rear bar/cross member, in line with chassis rail. So not lower than.

plenty of holes, bobs, uneven ground where if, winching the angle of cable/rope changes during the recovery and puts either upward or downward force on the rope....whether this is as much angle change as when the single bow shackle is used in a horizontal hole........only each individual recovery could tell that.

What I ment was using 2 shackles, 2 recovery points, which would be approx 800mm apart as chassis rails are, a long cable say 3m joined at each and using a snatch block pulley on this cable then the recovery vehicle attaches to this block. this would allow angle change between stuck and recovering vehicle and help share the load down both sides of the chassis.

either way, even if you rotate the recovery points so they are now vertical holes, this must be better than using just one point?

There was a company (yi-can???) that was recommending bridals hooked up to the axle, via radius arm bolts or trailing arm bolts and using this as a recovery point. Saying that it would pull the vehicle up and out of bogs, rather than pulling the chassis and having the axles wanting to drive down into the bog untill maxed out....

uninformed
25th February 2013, 07:39 PM
Tank, can you suggest any suppliers of rated collard or swivel bolts/recovery point tha could be adapted to our use?

Tank
25th February 2013, 11:50 PM
Tank, can you suggest any suppliers of rated collard or swivel bolts/recovery point tha could be adapted to our use?
Google up "Rigging Supliers", been years since I bought rigging gear, used to be Blackwoods was the place to go in Alexandria Sydney, but last time I drove through Alexandria it was all high rise Yuppie flats, go figure, as I have no idea of where you live, could also suggest if you live in the country to try Farm machinery/hardware retailers, Regards Frank.

clubagreenie
26th February 2013, 04:06 PM
LB wire ropes in Girraween NSW have a great selection of stuff and are well priced. They'll make steel slings (crimped or spliced) and since I turned up a couple of years back with dyneema and asked them to splice a new hook on and they hadn't dealt with it before they researched and found a tech rep to come out and train, and even asked me out as well. They are also looking at manufacturing dyneema products such as slings etc.

They also have a test bed setup for static and dynamic testing.

Sitec
17th March 2013, 09:29 AM
Working in the mines means you have to sit a 4x4 course, and I did mine recently. Went in with the 'huh, this'll b a laugh', and 'been doing it for years, is there more to learn?' attitude. I came out having learnt several things. Some good, some bad. The bad things I learnt are how many people don't inspect their recovery points before attaching another vehicle and heading off at wharp speed... On a previous course a week before mine, when demonstrating a 'snatch recovery' 'they' hand managed to remove the decent cast hook, the 2 bolts attaching it, and the piece of plate that was welded to the chassis from the 'dead vehicle' and imbed it in the back of the aluminium tradie box on the back of the tow vehicle... This surprised me as I was always taught that if the recovery points are not bolted direct to the chassis using at least two high tensile M16 or larger bolts, don't snatch off them! Someone didn't check did they!!! I'm also surprised at the lack of stretch in the supplied 'snatch straps' available here... A max of 20% stretch... I'm used to using KERR ropes (hence earlier post about Kinetic Energy Rope Recovery rope supliers in Australia) with at least 40% if not 50% stretch, which means you can utilise the tow vehicles weight and torque rather than the heavy snatch I've seen here.. The two good things I've learnt is that 1. If a tow bar assembly has the 50mm box section outlet painted yellow it is snatch rated. (This is to be confirmed by the plate welded to the frame, and the use of 10.9 or higher grade bolts affixing it to the chassis). This means that the tow ball section can be removed, and the loop of the snatch strap slid into the receiver and the locking pin refitted. The other thing I've learnt is the grades and ratings of shackles (inc colours). It transpires my UK rated shackles I've used for years are not suitable! I've attached a pic of shackle ratings and colours that might be of use. 'bubba' ropes are worth checking out on YouTube as well.. Cheers.

Don 130
17th March 2013, 03:24 PM
These blokes have some interesting gear. have a look at their 'lifting and lashing point catalogue'

http://www.rud.com/en-au/products/lifting-and-lashing-means/07f90480-d3fc-403d-81f0-6852a9afce22.html


Don

elshano
18th March 2013, 12:42 AM
Really interesting thread that has answered a few questions, so thanks to those far more knowledgeable than me for contributing.

I'm trying to do the right thing by setting my Disco up with the pieces I need to recover as safely as possible should the need arise, eg winch bar and, based on research on this site, 'rated' recovery points.

There are some points in the catalogue that nod_130 posted that would seem to satisfy some of the problems regarding force distribution AND that would satisfy the AS for their application. When matched to appropriate fixings this would seem to ensure the load point is not the weak link.

Is there a precedent for the use of this kind of industrial gear in recreational 4x4 recovery?

clubagreenie
18th March 2013, 07:30 AM
I saw the rotating RUD eye bolts a while back and thought they'd be great but was advised that they couldn't recommend them. They aren't rated that highly have issues in cruddy conditions with seizing.

I just use some 6.5T bow shackles, which are differently colored to the chart above but are rated and eye bolts rated higher. I spoke to xrox about their bar as it's drilled for smaller eyebolts than I have but is plated behind and they have no issue drilling it out up to 1.1/8" for larger eyebolts. They just do it that size as it's the size for the most common sold in 4WD stores (3T). I also use a spanset endless sling (20T) as a equaliser between the eyes, long enough to get the correct minimum angle between them to maintain the rating on the points, and to stop the shackles twisting too far in the eyes.

The weld on points are great looking things too but rely on good parent material which can't be satisfied by the bar plus even better welding than we could probably afford.

elshano
18th March 2013, 03:02 PM
Good info - my xrox is being fabricated as we speak!

This would seem to go against the conventional wisdom of not recovering from a bull bar though?

clubagreenie
18th March 2013, 04:03 PM
I also asked that and they said that they are fine with it. If the cans stretch just contact and they'll replace. I'm looking at a system to tie the back of the eye bolts using a c section bracket behind the nut and a custom small cable looped back to the mounting bolts. This would allow crush with the flex in the cable but should stop stretch as it's tight.

Tank
18th March 2013, 11:18 PM
I saw the rotating RUD eye bolts a while back and thought they'd be great but was advised that they couldn't recommend them. They aren't rated that highly have issues in cruddy conditions with seizing.

I just use some 6.5T bow shackles, which are differently colored to the chart above but are rated and eye bolts rated higher. I spoke to xrox about their bar as it's drilled for smaller eyebolts than I have but is plated behind and they have no issue drilling it out up to 1.1/8" for larger eyebolts. They just do it that size as it's the size for the most common sold in 4WD stores (3T). I also use a spanset endless sling (20T) as a equaliser between the eyes, long enough to get the correct minimum angle between them to maintain the rating on the points, and to stop the shackles twisting too far in the eyes.

The weld on points are great looking things too but rely on good parent material which can't be satisfied by the bar plus even better welding than we could probably afford.
If the eye bolt holes are vertical it doesn't matter how far they "twist", are the eye bolts collared, Regards Frank.

clubagreenie
19th March 2013, 08:25 AM
The rotating RUD ones or mine?

Tank
19th March 2013, 09:59 AM
Non rotating, yours, regards Frank.

clubagreenie
19th March 2013, 06:07 PM
They're collared, big enough to fit a 6.5T shackle pin, 10T rated.

I've been wondering about the effects of drilling the threaded end behind the nut(s) and fitting 2 nuts and a split pin as a safety and having it just loose enough with nylon washers to allow rotation.

Opinion?

Tank
19th March 2013, 10:41 PM
They're collared, big enough to fit a 6.5T shackle pin, 10T rated.

I've been wondering about the effects of drilling the threaded end behind the nut(s) and fitting 2 nuts and a split pin as a safety and having it just loose enough with nylon washers to allow rotation.

Opinion?
Yes, the safety feature sounds good, Iwould just use a metal washer or two behind the collar to adjust which way you want to orientate the pin hole

clubagreenie
20th March 2013, 01:28 AM
You wouldn't allow rotation?

Tank
20th March 2013, 01:04 PM
You wouldn't allow rotation?
It really doesn't matter, if the eye bolt hole is in the Vertical plane the shackle will swivel and follow the load, even at 90 degrees either side to the bull bar. If you wanted to rotate the eye bolt hole to horizontal (Which would be only useful if you were being/or winched/winching up a vertical cliff) then you could loosen it off and place a washer the same size (dia.) as the collar and tighten up in the horizontal plane, Regards Frank.

twr7cx
23rd March 2013, 08:23 AM
Yesterday I bought two 3.2t shackles from TJM for $20.00. The sticker price on them was $11.00 each.

The larger shackles were more expensive.

jc109
23rd March 2013, 08:08 PM
I bought two 4.7t shackles from Coventry Fasteners a couple of days ago and they cost me something like $9 each. And yes, they were more expensive than the 3.2t.