D3 V6 Petrol or TDV6?

[morpheus]

Hi guys,

I love this forum - so much info here, and as a prospective buyer a treasure trove of detail here to sort through. I am looking for some pros and cons for two of the Discovery 3 motors. I have noticed that a fair premium is added on the s/h market for the TDV6, and there are fewer of them available. I am interested in your views on this.

Being used to Toyota Landcruisers (ducking as I type), as I am originally from the bush I am drawn to the TDV6. However, my family usually steered clear of the oil burner for the family wagon, leaving diesels for the work vehicles. The reason for this was service costs, and power for overtaking - hence the family wagon was almost always a petrol V6 Cruiser Sahara.

Our eventual beast will spend most of its life on the black stuff, but I do want something that is capable of doing time on some pretty worn dirt roads, and rutted station tracks.

A few specific questions:
1. Do most of you petrol owners run 98 RON? If not what mileage do you get on the lesser fuels?
2. What are the rough service costs for each of the motors?
3. TDV6, any problems with the turbo?

Oh yeah, I left out the V8 as I assume it costs quite a bit to run. Happy to be proven otherwise if this is not the case.

I look forward to hearing from you, or being pointed in the direction of older threads I may have missed.

Thanks!

Morpheus

[sheerluck]

Generally the price difference is there for a good reason!

If you look at the relative engine stats, the TDV6 has 13 killer wasps less than the petrol V6 (at 147kw v 160kw), but the torque difference is huge, at 450Nm for the TDV6 v 360Nm for the petrol. And it's lower down in the rev range too.

The petrol likes premium dino juice, which is always more expensive than diesel, and drinks about 50% more at 15l/100km to the TDV6's 10l/100km.

Service interval is the same (I'm sure that's what I have read), and there is a gnat's knee's difference in the normal service parts. However, I'm not sure if the petrol V6 has a timing belt (I think it is a chain), which would be a fairly major service cost difference.

And also if the turbo fails on the TDV6, it is a body off job to replace it.

[morpheus]

Thanks sheerluck,

How does the diesel go overtaking on the highway? This was always one of my old man's arguments against a diesel for the family wagon.

Cheers
Morpheus

[discotwinturbo]

Thanks sheerluck,

How does the diesel go overtaking on the highway? This was always one of my old man's arguments against a diesel for the family wagon.

Cheers
Morpheus

The old diesels were slow....modern day diesels are quick.

I do have the 3 litre D4 which is 180kw, and a Toaureg which is 176kw and both are awfully quick at getting past road trains. Easily be doing on the other side of 160 if you kept it flat.

The 2.7 would not be as quick.....but I think you would find that overtaking would still be effortless.

I would choose a diesel over a petrol everyday as the diesels suits my towing and touring duties better.

Brett.....

[sheerluck]

Thanks sheerluck,

How does the diesel go overtaking on the highway? This was always one of my old man's arguments against a diesel for the family wagon.

Cheers
Morpheus

As discotwinturbo has said, the diesels from way back when are different from the diesels now. My little Golf diesel (a 1.6 4 cyl turbo) has almost the same torque as my 3.9V8 D1, and is quicker off the line, and better at overtaking on the two lane local highway, than my wife's Merc ML320 (3.2 V6). In a few weeks time, we are going to be a diesel only fleet.

And just as a point of interest - the D3 V8 has the same theoretical fuel consumption as the V6.

[djambalawa]

My 2.7l TDV6 D3 was effortless in passing.. and towing etc... won't be an issue don't worry :)

[chuck]

If you decide on petrol rather than diesel go for the V8.

Most opinion is that it is a far better motor with almost the same economy as the V6.

Prices will be significantly cheaper than diesel.

Pure economics suggest the petrol if you are buying second hand and do not have a requirement for long range.

[101RRS]

but the torque difference is huge, at 450Nm for the TDV6 v 360Nm for the petrol. And it's lower down in the rev range too.



Thanks sheerluck,

How does the diesel go overtaking on the highway? This was always one of my old man's arguments against a diesel for the family wagon.

Cheers
Morpheus

The torque figures say it all - modern diesels are nothing like they were in the good ole days.

The pick of the petrols is the V8 - more power, less fuel consumption (arguably). The V6 is the Ford Explorer engine where the V8 is the Jag engine.

I have a TDV6 and has more power and torque than you need.

Given the used purchase cost, cost of fuel, fuel consumption and servicing, the V8 is probably the cheaper vehicle to own in the long term - if bought new it would be the diesel.

Garry

[AnD3rew]

I have a 2.7 D3 and I have zero complaints on power and overtaking don't even worry about that. If you want to tow go diesel, if fuel running costs are your biggest concern go diesel if overall servicing costs are your concern go petrol.

But if you are still doing a lot of country cruising then range will be of concern and the standard fuel tank is a little small, you can just get away with it in he diesel but it could get annoying in a petrol.

Or you could add a long range tank but as this also means a rear wheel carrier you are looking at @$3k.

[morpheus]

Thanks for your responses, all.


The pick of the petrols is the V8 - more power, less fuel consumption (arguably). The V6 is the Ford Explorer engine where the V8 is the Jag engine.

Given the used purchase cost, cost of fuel, fuel consumption and servicing, the V8 is probably the cheaper vehicle to own in the long term - if bought new it would be the diesel.


Gary - that is interesting. I must admit that I really hadn't looked into the V8 at all.


I have a 2.7 D3 and I have zero complaints on power and overtaking don't even worry about that. If you want to tow go diesel, if fuel running costs are your biggest concern go diesel if overall servicing costs are your concern go petrol.

But if you are still doing a lot of country cruising then range will be of concern and the standard fuel tank is a little small, you can just get away with it in he diesel but it could get annoying in a petrol.

Or you could add a long range tank but as this also means a rear wheel carrier you are looking at @$3k.

Cheers AnD3rew. Yeah, I will be doing at least one Canberra-Adelaide round trip per year, and hopefully a few trips up and around Far North SA. The vehicle will spend most of its life around Canberra though. My biggest concern was the power, but it sounds like this really isn't an issue. The range will be a factor for the long trips - thanks for the advice regarding the long range tank and wheel carrier.

It really looks like the diesel is the way to go. However, I will probably cross the Ts and dot the lower-case Js by looking at the V8 now, just to round-off my research. :D

I take it, from the lack of responses, that there are no problems with the turbo on the TDV6?

[sheerluck]

I take it, from the lack of responses, that there are no problems with the turbo on the TDV6?

There have been instances of people having to have turbos replaced. If you read through all of the D3/D4/RRS forum here as well as the DISCO3.CO.UK - Index (http://www.disco3.co.uk) site, you will find reports of that happening. But does it appear to be a regular issue? No.

(I tend to analyse purchases to death, and before I shelled out my hard earned on a D3, I made sure I knew as many of the facts as I could get hold of).

[Dougal]

Also check the options on any petrol v6. I'd expect them to be missing a lot of kit.

[Rich84]

Performance of the TDV6 is really quite excellent given the D3/RRS is a 2.7t vehicle and in fact one of the heaviest road cars you can buy - it will be perform better than the LCs you've driven and will use less fuel as well as being far more refined. I suggest you drive one. It gets off the line rapidly and torque from 2000-3000rpm is excellent. Overtaking performance is acceptable, however you'll want to use manual shift to ensure the engine stays in its favourite torque range, as the trans will shift down otherwise and you'll be sitting at 4Krpm going nowhere fast.

I can't comment on the V6 petrol, but there are some common issues on the TDV6:
-the transmission - the party line from Land Rover is that it is filled for life and does not need to be serviced. The reality is that the trans fluid breaks down around 80-90K km. The trans will start shuddering when the fluid needs replacement - if this is not tended to, long term damage will result. The fluid is replaced along with the pan - it requires the OEM ZF Lifeguard 6 fluid, you cannot use regular ATF in this box.

-timing belt - unusually long interval of 168K km. The belt service is straightforward, however there is a second belt that drives the HPFP which is a PITA to replace. There has been an issue where the main timing belt tensioner mounting breaks off and allows the timing belt to detension and destroy the engine. A new oil pump has been designed and it is common to replace the oil pump at the same time as the belt. It is generally thought to occur more often on 07MY models, but a quick look at a poll on disco3.com will show that it seems to occur across all the models. Quite often it will occur straight after a timing belt change - my own thought is that people are over-tensioning the tensioner bolt and weakening the mount.

-turbo - the turbo is a variable geometry Borg Warner/KKK unit. The variable geometry is achieved via a set of fins that can be set at a range of angles to achieve a better spread of boost response. The fins can get jammed in place from excessive carbon buildup which then causes the actuator rod to stick. Some people say that running 2 stroke oil in your diesel can help to prevent this. The turbo is otherwise a reliable unit and I've heard of at least one lasting over 600,000km. Note especially that it is generally considered to be a 'body off' job to replace it.

-EGR valves are a common issue on the diesel. You can blank them off on pre 07MY cars and some people say you can blank them off on the later ones too.

-these cars are designed to have the body removed to allow access to major maintenance parts. It's about a 4 hour job but you'll need a hoist.

-the suspension compressor (you WANT one with air suspension) is also a common failure item.

I've had my 08 RRS for three months now and am loving it. It has already clocked nearly 20K km in my ownership. It has become the vehicle of choice for all the outings of my household (live on a large property with my three best mates) including trips to some places where people are surprised to see an RRS - you get a few looks when you roll up to a rodeo in an RRS! Even people who previously didn't like LRs love the car and comment on how well it seems to do everything.

[101RRS]

-the transmission - the party line from Land Rover is that it is filled for life and does not need to be serviced.

I am not sure where that comes from - certainly not from Landrover. The service schedule indicates the gearbox requires service every 240,000km or 10 years but where it has arduous use the interval is half that.

Now I personally think that is far too long - ZF the makers believe it should be serviced about 90,000km - but this is a myth that the gearbox is sealed for life.

Garry

[Mike_S]

The V8's a great engine. Bit thirsty when the car's got a roof rack on it but in my RRS I'm getting around 450k's round town and 600k's on a run from the tank before I need to fill up. I never run it dry though, so normally I'll pour 75 litres into it.

I don't think you'd grumble with the TDV6 though.

[Ashes]

I think what you will find with this question is those who own the diesel will recommend the diesel and those who own petrol will recommend it. One is not necessarily markedly better than the other but there are some pro's and con's for each in certain circumstances.
For your intended use of mostly blacktop and tracks both vehicles will handle those easily and in a similar manner so the engine isn't really a factor.

If you need fuel economy and as a by product additional range - diesel
If you need a lower purchase/entry price - petrol V6 (it will take many years before diesel economy pays the difference back).
Very heavy and frequent towing - diesel
Acceleration/performance - petrol V8

Maintenance costs...anyones guess, both have common wear items that cant be avoided such as suspension compressor, front suspension components, transmission maintenance, hand brake cleaning and actuators etc. I don't think in reality there is a huge difference between the 2. Perhaps the petrol is slightly cheaper than the diesel due to it not having a turbo that can fail although I don't have figures to confirm this. I'm not sure if there is much difference in general servicing costs.

As far as options, about the only thing I've found with the V6 petrol is that a snorkel is not readily available. One can be fitted if really needed. Everything else that goes on the diesels seems to either be a direct fit on the petrol as the bodies are the same. A front winch bar is available for the petrol.

For me, the petrol fits my needs perfectly and as you point out is around $10k cheaper and is often either a newer model and has lower K's. The lower entry cost was a big factor in our decision making. The things that would sway me to the diesel in the future would be if I was doing extended outback travel or pulling a massive van or boat. I'm not likely to do either in the near future so I'm sticking with my petrol V6.

Whatever you get, you will enjoy it.

[steved01]

If you need a lower purchase/entry price - petrol V6 (it will take many years before diesel economy pays the difference back).

Whatever you get, you will enjoy it.

Completely agree. The lower entry point and the fact that it will take 10 years in cost recovery (at least) for Diesel over Petrol is why I went that way. If you can find a V8 go for that - but the V6 is very smooth and great around town - just dont be heavy footed on the gas ;-) like the wife coz then it will drink the floods dry!

Last year a return trip to the Blue Mountains from Brisbane with 5 people and fully loaded rack and boot and I got avg of 13l/100K.

No need for timing belt changed certainly is persuasive and other servicing (non-engine) is all the same. I've had front bushes (lower arm replacement), battery and alternator and all round pads and front disks done in 4 years on a 2nd hand 2007 V6 SE now at 135kms...my family all love it and will keep it for another 2 years I reckon until I can afford a D4 diesel (I hope !).

[Dougal]

Consider resale too. The price premium you pay for diesel grows as a percentages as the vehicles age and comes back at sale time. Those considering only the fuel cost of the petrol will also take a bath at resale time.

[morpheus]

Thanks, guys. Really appreciate your advice.


(you WANT one with air suspension) is also a common failure item. Yep. Although it wouldn't be the end of the world if it didn't have air suspension I need 7 seats, and as I understand only the SE and up came with 7 seats, so an SE or HSE it is.


For your intended use of mostly blacktop and tracks both vehicles will handle those easily and in a similar manner so the engine isn't really a factor.

If you need fuel economy and as a by product additional range - diesel
If you need a lower purchase/entry price - petrol V6 (it will take many years before diesel economy pays the difference back).
Very heavy and frequent towing - diesel
Acceleration/performance - petrol V8
.

Whatever you get, you will enjoy it.

Thanks. Yeah it seems the diesels hold their value quite a bit too, there are heaps on carsales.com.au with over 200klms on them.

[morpheus]

Also check the options on any petrol v6. I'd expect them to be missing a lot of kit.

Thanks for the tip, Dougal. As I am after a 7-seater as a minimum I am looking at the SE model and up (if this is completely wrong someone please let me know). From what I have read here, SE/HSE also has the terrain response/air suspension package as standard.

[Scary]

Well I have the SE V6 and we love it - Hindsight I would have got the V8 but such is life.

Car is 95% kid carrier for the wife.

I have taken it offroad and I mean real offroad and not had any issues.

Great on the sand and mud.

Have done numerous family trips with it loaded to the gunnels with gear longest being Perth to Karrajini and back via the coast.

Travelling with a camper trailer tows fine and still overtakes fine.

can be thirsty when towing.

7 seats, air suspension great to drive.

[dominicbeirne]

Hi everyone,

I got my D3 new in 2009. It was during the runout before the D4 hit the showrooms. It is an SE V6. I use 98 RON petrol mostly, unless unavailable. I find I get about 400 km per tank around town and between 650 and 750 on the highway. The car came out of warranty in 2012 and I am paying significantly less for services now than before. 84K km was $300 all done vs $600 to $800 at dealer.


I have had no real issues with the car. Used to live in Sydney and did trips to Longreach, Brisbane, Rockhampton and Thredbo. Now living in Brisbane and have done the reverse Thredbo, Perisher, Sydney and St George Qld.


Off road has been not as much as I would like. Moreton and Stradbroke Islands, paddock bashing etc. Always want to get away more just can't always find the time.


I think what everyone knows is that regardless of which engine or standard of fitout these are bloody good vehicles that, unless you are very unlucky, you will get home at the end of any trip be it road, beach or bush.


Get the car and have a great time with it.


Cheers


Dom

[Sadie]

Hey Morpheus.

Check your inbox for a message from me...

Cheers,

Steve