Front recovery point for D1?

[VladTepes]

To put in context I have a TJM alloy front bar on my D1.

What options are there for a front recovery point?

I saw this, but not sure if it's the right answer...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1/99063-front-recovery-point-fitting.html
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1305.jpg
I did have that style on the Defender.


I do have one of those Bushranger type recovery hooks lying around
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1043.jpg
- could I just fit that to the front chassis rail?

Better options?

[Gary S11]

If you follow this link it will show how I fitted a hayman reese hitch to the front of mine ...might be a solution ..Gary

LROCWA Forum (http://www.lrocwa.org.au/forum/cgi-bin/YaBB.cgi?board=discovery;action=display;num=133448 6878)

[VladTepes]

Cheers but that's a bit more complex than what I had in mind and I'd prefer not to have to mod the bullbar.

[Tank]

Hooks would be best, regards Frank

[streaky]

I found these 15mm thick steel plate recovery points from David Bowyer to be excellent. They use the two main 13mm bumper mounting points and the 17mm power steering gear box mounting point or drop arm.
I made some paper templates for others to get copies made.

You could make up same template on cardboard before transferring it to the steel. They are the same for left and right side.

The hole on the left is to mount from the steering box/drop arm, the two 13mm holes are for the bumper bolts and the big one on the right is for your shackle.

[VladTepes]

So would those work with a bullbar fitted?

Not sure what you mean by mounting to the steering box? Wouldn't that damage the steering box in the event of using the recovery point ? (obviously I'm missing something here...)


I can't find anything re David Bowyer on google, do you have a link?

Or do you have a copy of the template I could have?

[EdC]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/108967-recovery-points-discovery-1-2-a.html

[Tank]

I don't know why I bother, I have posted on numerous occasions, explaining why these underbody, horizontal pin hole recovery points are rubbish.
This type of recovery point places dangerous loads on shackles and can cause failure of of said shackle.
Now if you wish to place yourselves in danger every time you use these recovery points, go ahead.
I don't give a ****, now if a mechanic told you that if you put Petrol in a diesel engine there would be consequences, if an Auto Electrician told you that if you short out your battery there will be consequences, and you would believe them, right.
Now when , I, as a Qualified/certfied Rigger tells you that there will be consequences if you abuse a shackle by using it in one of these crap, nasty, cheap excuses for a recovery point, you IGNORE my advice,
Regards Frank.

[VladTepes]

Tank - I'm not sure what you mean.

Which particular recovery points don't you think are safe?
If its the ones such as the first photo I posted - how is the mounting system for those any different to the hooks? (as per second pic).

Can you point me to one of the "numerous" posts you refer to so that I can have a read of them as I'd like to read your explanations please.

I'd really appreciate if you could post pics of the set up you have on your Disco, and how those points are mounted.

Cheers & thanks in advance.

[Tank]

Vlad, here is the latest of a number of issues with Shackle use, http://www.aulro.com/afvb/recovery/169585-bow-shackles.html and snatch straps and the general malaise that seems to accompany 4WD recovery, as in most things there is a right/safe way and a wrong/unsafe/dangerous way of recovering vehicles.
I have repeatedly warned that if you use a shackle in a way that it was not designed to be used then the shackle may become the weakest link in, say, a snatch recovery, where normally the snatch strap should be the weakest link. people have died and more will, because commonsense is not common and people who know nothing refuse to learn.
I mentioned earlier in this post of yours that the hook would be the better recovery point, reason, you don't need a shackle. I don't recover from the front or rear with a snatch strap, I will post up a pic from 4WDAction mag showing EXTREME abuse of a shackle. A shackle is designed to be loaded directly straight ahead, recovery point in the centre of the pin, strap eye in the middle of the bow, any deviation will damage the shackle and continued misuse will result in eventual failure, Have a search of my posts there are numerous explanations on how to recover safely, if you wish you can call me on 0407103320, much easier to explain than typing it out here, regards Frank.PS it's not the mounting points Vlad it is the orientation of the recovery pin hole.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/967.jpg

[VladTepes]

Whats the best way / best place to mount the hook that I have then ?

[Reads90]

Personally I have in the past used a bridle to use both the eyes front the original bull bar. This spreads the load and makes them more than enough to take the pressure.

You need to use a rated strop / rope and shackles.

[Reads90]

Whats the best way / best place to mount the hook that I have then ?

I personally think those hooks are dangerous and lethal.

[Tank]

Whats the best way / best place to mount the hook that I have then ?
Bolted to the side of the chassis rail, just like those useless other recovery points, I have seen them bolted to the top of chassis rails on 40 series toyotas, have even seen them bolted to the bottom of chassis rails, regards Frank.

[Tank]

I personally think those hooks are dangerous and lethal.
What do you base that statement on, Regards Frank.

[VladTepes]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/1319.jpg

[grover69]

I don't know why I bother, I have posted on numerous occasions, explaining why these underbody, horizontal pin hole recovery points are rubbish.
This type of recovery point places dangerous loads on shackles and can cause failure of of said shackle.
Now if you wish to place yourselves in danger every time you use these recovery points, go ahead.
I don't give a ****, now if a mechanic told you that if you put Petrol in a diesel engine there would be consequences, if an Auto Electrician told you that if you short out your battery there will be consequences, and you would believe them, right.
Now when , I, as a Qualified/certfied Rigger tells you that there will be consequences if you abuse a shackle by using it in one of these crap, nasty, cheap excuses for a recovery point, you IGNORE my advice,
Regards Frank.

As a qualified /certified rigger that makes you a design engineer so as a quaified/certfied bus driver does that make me a coach builder

[Reads90]

What do you base that statement on, Regards Frank.

Due to what people bolt them to and I have seen many fail on tough pulls.

It's like hi lifts not dangerous sat on the floor its when idiots get hold of them and think they can do everything.

[Tank]

As a qualified /certified rigger that makes you a design engineer so as a quaified/certfied bus driver does that make me a coach builder
No but it makes me a ****ing site more knowledgeable than you when it comes to abuse of recovery gear used by 4WDrivers, Regards frank.

[Tank]

Due to what people bolt them to and I have seen many fail on tough pulls.

It's like hi lifts not dangerous sat on the floor its when idiots get hold of them and think they can do everything.
And that's any different to the way those flat plate recovery points are bolted onto chassis's, Regards Frank.

[grover69]

No but it makes me a ****ing site more knowledgeable than you when it comes to abuse of recovery gear used by 4WDrivers, Regards frank.

Great next time my workshop needs to be recovered from a boghole (not lifted or moved ) i will give you a call. :D

[Tank]

Just wondering why you made this statement, what has ****ed you off, Quote:"As a qualified /certified rigger that makes you a design engineer so as a quaified/certfied bus driver does that make me a coach builder"

As a Rigger on every occasion of a lift/move I am personally liable for any injuries/damage caused by NOT doing the job properly/safely, I am responsible for every worker in the vicinity of my work.
I need to know what type/size sling, shackle, strap etc. to use to do the job safely and correctly. I need to know what, for instance a shackle, is "designed and engineered" to do, for instance I know that a shackle is designed and engineered to have the load applied in only the straight ahead line of pull.
Now when someone uses a shackle that is loaded from the side with the shackle pin jambed in the horizontal plane hole of the recovery point bracket and the snatch strap off centre and to the side. Then that person has turned the shackle into the weakest point in the recovery line, whereas if the pull was straight ahead then the snatch strap becomes the weakest link, which is what you want. It's better to have a snatch strap break than have part of a shackle flying like a bullet through the air.
I am not a Design Engineer, but I have to know the limitations of lifting/recovery gear that I use and going by the number of people being injured and killed by broken recovery gear I offered my Expert advice on how this gear should be used safely. Your statement implies what I'm saying is wrong, if so please point out what is wrong and enlighten us on how it should be done, regards Frank.

[grover69]

I'm not saying your wrong I am just sick of hearing the same carp over and over
Give others a chance to have their say ,you are a rigger by trade so stick to that .There is in no such way the perfect recovery point only what's available .

[Tank]

I'm not saying your wrong I am just sick of hearing the same carp over and over
Give others a chance to have their say ,you are a rigger by trade so stick to that .There is in no such way the perfect recovery point only what's available .
If your sick of hearing the same crap, don't ****ing read it , do you know what spell check is.

[rangieman]

I overcame the problem with this ;)

[grover69]

If i didn't read it i would not get the chance to give idots like yourself some lip . You are no expert you have an opinion (right or wrong) the same as everyone , my suggestion get a life other than being a internet jockey.

[Tank]

If i didn't read it i would not get the chance to give idots like yourself some lip . You are no expert you have an opinion (right or wrong) the same as everyone , my suggestion get a life other than being a internet jockey.
PM sent.

[disco_thrasher]

PM sent.
Deleted due to wasting my energy and time

[incisor]

my

a tag team match....

-1

i suggest you all keep civil tongues in your heads and try to behave like adults.

some people get very passionate on the subject of what appears to be dangerous behavior in their eyes.

name calling will sort nothing and only demeans your forum persona.

if you don't want to talk to each other please use the ignore list to your advantage.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/profile.php'do=ignorelist

please, back to regular programming.

[theborderdog]

So after all this......Whats the best recovery point for the front of the disco I've been using the strap between the two points on the bar for years now with no problems but the more I think about the more dodgy it becomes.

[Dizza]

I'm very interested in what is around as well.
The combined steering guard and recovery points is a great and rather neat solution only i already have an alloy guard without built in recovery points.

On our Landcruiser 100 series we have a pair of about 12mm steel points that are bolted onto the chassis and as far as i can tell they are about the standard on the cruisers and trolls around the place. Is there anything like this available for the disco?

[Tank]

So after all this......Whats the best recovery point for the front of the disco I've been using the strap between the two points on the bar for years now with no problems but the more I think about the more dodgy it becomes.
If you read my post in this thread #22 or use the Search option in this Forum for "Recovery Points", "Shackles" you will find heaps of info from all views on this subject.
IMO the best recovery point is on the front of the Bullbar in line with the chassis railends. It would be a Collared eye bolt that bolts to a plate mounted in the end of the chassis rail. Not attached to the bullbar in any way. This way eliminates under bar damage to cable/rope when vehicle moves forward/backward and the wheel drops into a hole and brings the bar down on the cable.
Having an eye bolt on the end of each chassis rail gets the cable/rope up out of the crap and is easier to attach recovery equipment. With the eye of the eye bolt in the vertical plane (up and down) the shackle/s are free to rotate/align to wherever the direction of the tow/winch, even at an angle of 180 degrees.
Shackles are designed and engineered to only have a load on them in the straight ahead direction, if the pin is jambed in the recovery point (Horizontal) hole and the load is pulling in the sideways direction (off centre), the shackle MAY fail. It might not fail first time, but it will be damaged and the last thing you want in your recovery setup is a damaged shackle.
Now I know these flat plate recovery points are simple, simple to make so people can sell them and make money, whereas the correct way, by mounting an eye bolt in the ends of the chassis rails requires more effort and thought, it is SAFER, Regards Frank.

[SouthOz]

Collared Eye Bolts loose 70% + as soon as they are pulled at an angle. So you would need a 15 ton Collared Eye Bolt to withstand a 5 ton load?

eyebolts (http://www.rigging.net/Eye%20Bolts.htm)

Dave

[Tank]

Collared Eye Bolts loose 70% + as soon as they are pulled at an angle. So you would need a 15 ton Collared Eye Bolt to withstand a 5 ton load?

eyebolts (http://www.rigging.net/Eye%20Bolts.htm)

Dave
I use proper industrial strength eye bolts, as shown in pic below, the size of the collar on mine are about half the outside dia, of the eye, I have lifted 100ton loads using collared eye bolts at an angle and never had a problem.
At least eye bolts (proper) are designed to take angled loads, whereas a jambed shackle being pulled sideways has NO WLL or SWL, it is being stressed beyond it's design and it should not be done, Regards Frank.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/1100.jpg

Before anyone jumps in and says the pin hole is horizontal and not vertical like it should be, it's not mine, regards Frank.

[roverrescue]

Frank,
at the back of your collared eye bolt do you use a washer and single nut?
out of interest what size is the bolt?
I assume you suggest running a longitudinal plate along the chassis which then angles 90 degrees to accept the collared eye bolt?

I never use dynamic recovery so have much lower standards on recovery points ;)

I have collared eye bolts in my bar (in the horizontal orientation) but they are only M16 (fit a 3.2T shackle).
They are simply mounted through the front plate of the bar and through the main structural from chassis rails to bar. (TJM bar I replaced the lower two bolts either side of the winch with eye bolts)
Just using a large washer and nylocs.
No deformation/ damage to the structurals, eye bolts, or other bar bolts despite plenty of heavy winching - but it would be good to know what size eye bolt you are running / recommending.

Regards,

[SouthOz]

I use proper industrial strength eye bolts, as shown in pic below, the size of the collar on mine are about half the outside dia, of the eye, I have lifted 100ton loads using collared eye bolts at an angle and never had a problem.

Well then you have overloaded them and they should be binned. As a qualified rigger you should never exceed the WLL of any lifting gear. :)

Quote from eyebolts (http://www.rigging.net/Eye%20Bolts.htm)

Direction of Pull Adjusted Working Load
45 degrees 30% of rated working load
90 degrees 25% of rated working load


Dave

[Tank]

Frank,
at the back of your collared eye bolt do you use a washer and single nut?
out of interest what size is the bolt?
I assume you suggest running a longitudinal plate along the chassis which then angles 90 degrees to accept the collared eye bolt?

I never use dynamic recovery so have much lower standards on recovery points ;)

I have collared eye bolts in my bar (in the horizontal orientation) but they are only M16 (fit a 3.2T shackle).
They are simply mounted through the front plate of the bar and through the main structural from chassis rails to bar. (TJM bar I replaced the lower two bolts either side of the winch with eye bolts)
Just using a large washer and nylocs.
No deformation/ damage to the structurals, eye bolts, or other bar bolts despite plenty of heavy winching - but it would be good to know what size eye bolt you are running / recommending.

Regards,
I haven't completed mine yet, being a pensioner i have to plan to do things that cost money between bill paying paydays and when i have the funds to do it. I will post pics of construction.
My plan is to remove bull bar, fabricate a 4 sided box section that will fit in each end of chassis rails with 4 anti-crush tubes fro the 2 bolts already there for the bull bar and an extra 2. The end (closest to bull bar) will have a 1" dia nut welded to the 1/2" end plate which in turn is welded to the pre-mentioned box which is bolted (4 bolts each) into the chassis rail ends. The 1/2" plate will be threaded as well, the collared eye bolt, the part of the eye bolt thread that protrudes past the nut will have a high tensile roll pin fitted to allow the eye bolt to be rotated, if need be.
Each individual will have their own preferences and most will go with the easy way and fit the flat plates onto the side of the chassis rails. There are many ways of mounting eye bolt plates that are free of attachment to the bull bar and everyone will have their own way, your way seems to work, but using a snatch strap is an uknown as no 2 snatches are the same (don't take that literally, LOL), so as long as you are aware of the dangers involved, Regards Frank,

[Tank]

Well then you have overloaded them and they should be binned. As a qualified rigger you should never exceed the WLL of any lifting gear. :)

Quote from eyebolts (http://www.rigging.net/Eye%20Bolts.htm)

Direction of Pull Adjusted Working Load
45 degrees 30% of rated working load
90 degrees 25% of rated working load


Dave
The eye bolts you have shown look to be extremely light duty, the collars on any eye bolt I have ever used are 2 to 3 times the size of the ones shown by you. Compare the pic of the eye bolt type that I use. I have used eye bolts that have collars as big as the outside dia of the eye, search around you find much stronger eye bolts than you have shown, regards Frank.

Here is some info from the Riggers Guide.

Eyebolts

Eyebolts are used extensively as lifting lugs on set pieces of equipment. The safest eyebolt is a collared

eyebolt. Uncollared eyebolts should only be used where the pull on the eyebolt is vertical.

Only collared eyebolts should be used where the pull is inclined from the vertical. The underside of

the eyebolt should be machined and the seating upon which the eyebolt is tightened should also be

machined. The eyebolt should be tightened so that both faces meet in a neat tight fit. If both faces are

apart the collar is of no use.

Any diagonal tension applied to an eyebolt should be in line. The pull should never be across the eye.

Do not insert a hook into an eyebolt. Always use a shackle.

Where two eyebolts are used to lift a load, a pair of slings should be shackled into them. Do not reeve a

single sling through two eyebolts and then put both eyes on the hook.

71

Where eyebolts cannot be kept in line with each other when tightened, insert thin washers or shims under

the collars to allow the eyebolts to be tightened when in line.

Do not tighten an eyebolt using a heavy hammer. Use a light hammer or a podger bar. After tightening

check the ‘solid feeling’ which indicates a properly fitted eyebolt.

Loads can spin when lifted with a single eyebolt causing the eyebolt to unscrew from the load. Mouse the

eyebolt to the load to stop unscrewing.

Eyebolts are often put on large motors or similar to lift the casing off. It can be dangerous to lift loads with the

eyebolts that are provided on the load. If no information is provided about an eyebolt sling the load with slings.

If rings are provided with the eyebolt depend on the WLL of the ring or screw thread, whichever is

the weakest.

Where a nut is fitted to the end of screwed thread ensure that it bears evenly on the surface around

the hole.

[SouthOz]

650 to 24000 lb WWL with a hole size from 1/2 inch to 3 inches seems light duty? As a rigging site (the one I linked) I thought you would be familiar with it.

Dave

[roverrescue]

Thanks Frank,
so your plan is using a 1in diameter nut or 1in diameter thread section on the eye bolt.
I think M16 is 27mm nut size... M16 is afair bit lighter than 1" shank in tension.

and with regards to " using a snatch strap is an uknown as no 2 snatches are the same"

I no longer own a dynamic strap - too many sketchy outcomes on stuck vehicles with them - give me slow and steady any day.

My last snatch strap died a slow death flat towing a pajero out of Lakefield a few years ago. I think we had 6 knots in it by the end from fraying on the dirt. Got the job done and then got binned.

S

[Tank]

650 to 24000 lb WWL with a hole size from 1/2 inch to 3 inches seems light duty? As a rigging site (the one I linked) I thought you would be familiar with it.

Dave
Dave, the rigging site that I trust to have the correct info is the NSW Work Cover Rigging Guide, not some bloke that is putting up info from wherever he can get it.
I don't class a 10Ton (24000lb) eye bolt as heavy duty, I have lifted ship engines weighing hundreds of tons using collared eye bolts (big ones), I repeat the examples of eye bolts you have shown are very light duty and I would advise that that style of eye bolt is not suitable, they might be suitable for straight lifts, but with collars of the size illustrated I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Thanks Frank,
so your plan is using a 1in diameter nut or 1in diameter thread section on the eye bolt.
I think M16 is 27mm nut size... M16 is afair bit lighter than 1" shank in tension.

and with regards to " using a snatch strap is an uknown as no 2 snatches are the same"

I no longer own a dynamic strap - too many sketchy outcomes on stuck vehicles with them - give me slow and steady any day.

My last snatch strap died a slow death flat towing a pajero out of Lakefield a few years ago. I think we had 6 knots in it by the end from fraying on the dirt. Got the job done and then got binned.

S
S, I agree, I have a snatch strap, 5 years now and only ever used it once as an extension strap in a hairy tow up a steep mountain.
A 1" dia. threaded section with a nut to suit welded to the 1/2 plate, with the correct size hole for the Tap, which will be threaded through the back end of the nut to align the thread in the plate with the nut thread. There should be about 1 1/2" of thread for the eye bolt to purchase on.
The reason I'm making up a box section to go inside the chassis rail ends is that the bull bar mounts/brackets sit over the top and sides of the chassis rails. It would be probably easier (and I might change my design when I actually start on the project) to box the outside of the chassis with the end plate welded on the end.
I have been fortunate that I haven't been bogged and required a tow/snatch from the front, most of my recovery work has been from the rear of other vehicles.
I use my tow hitch with the towball removed and use the Vertical pin hole for the shackle. It is a straight hitch with no drop so it is as good as those solid bars with the lug on the end, or if I'm lazy I just poke the eye of the sling up the hole and secure with the hitch pin, I'll keep you posted when I start on this in a few weeks, Regards Frank.

[SouthOz]

What ever LOL. Its obvious that yours is bigger.;)

Dave

[Tank]

What ever LOL. Its obvious that yours is bigger.;)

Dave
Dave have a look at Bullivants http://www.bullivants.com/Uploads/Bullivants%20Hardware_09.pdf they have a great range of collared eye bolts/swivel eye bolts and some really good recovery gear as well, Regards Frank.

[Cap]

Very old thread I know, but why create another one!

So I decided to add some front recovery points, short of not having a front bar with them on, I needed something that would help for minor recoveries (I dont do big mud holes or anything like that)

Im sure ill get some constructive criticism, all good by me :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5fyV4ejWqw&list=UUu3RwTvV8BtsNIuTyGkAo5w

[TheTree]

Another approach here ... I am looking to fit something to my P38

Recovery Hook Kit (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/p16287.html)

Steve

[Fausto79]

Hooks would be best, regards Frank

i was going to say wait until Tank comments but then i saw you had already.

[TheTree]

i was going to say wait until Tank comments but then i saw you had already.

The P38 has pretty much the same issue as the Disco in that the recovery points need to drop down below the chassis level a little, hence the approach used in this kit.

I don't think it's possible to attach hooks directly to the chassis rails.

I like this approach where he has made a bracket which wraps around the chassis for extra strength

P38 Recovery Points (http://www.rangerovers.net/outfitting/recoverypoints/P38%20Recovery%20Points.html)

Anyway I have polluted this thread enough with mentions of the P38 :p

Steve