Has my Puma got a DPF or not.

[Cracka]

G'day Guys/Girls,

There seems to be some confusion/discussion as to whether we have DPF's fitted to our Puma's.

I was under the impression that my MY12 didn't as it only had the Catalytic converter then the centre and lastly the rear muffler in the system from the outlet side of the turbo to the tailpipe.

But before I shot my mouth off (I still could be wrong though, my research could be flawed:D) I have just flicked through 897 pages of the workshop manual that I downloaded from this link http://landrover.livedrive.com/ that Naks posted the other night and found some interesting things.

You might all know this bit of info, its got nothing to do with the DPF but I thought it was interesting.

You can learn a lot from your vehicles VIN. All of the characters differ from vehicle to vehicle, spec, build plant produced etc. Tonight I learnt from the first 11 characters the following info about mine.

Land Rover UK, Defender.
90 inch extra heavy duty.
3 door station wagon.
2 2l ROW spec (non EU5) engine.
RHD 6 speed manual.
2012 model year.
Build plant Solihull.

Well, obviously I knew most of those things but not the extra heavy duty, which I confirmed with spring rate by colour code. Also the build plant, and the non EU5 also led me to believe mine was non DPF and to dig further.

Now the DPF.

Well it explains on page 894 that the catalytic converter and DPF are within the same unit. EU4 regions have the cat converter only, EU5 have the combined cat converter and DPF. It shows on pages 895 and 897 the differences (pictures) between the 2.

It appears the way to differentiate between the 2, is that the Cat/DPF has wires and pipes from various sensors coming from the top and the sides whereas the straight catalytic converter does not (mine has absolutely nothing, a couple of blanking plugs where the sensors go that I can see).

Like I have said before I am no mechanic and don't pretend to be. I had wanted to know this information for my own peace of mind and thought I might as well post it here. But do your own research before commiting to maybe using a non DPF suitable oil or similar.

I am just posting this for information only, not as fact.

[Naks]

Be careful of reading the specs from the VIN though.

According to the SA VIN numbers, the Puma 2.4 should not have a cat, and yet all of them do.

Nothing beats an eyeball check :cool:

[spudfan]

What engine oil is specified for the vehicle? It will have to be oil suitable for use with a DPF. So the specs page for the engine oil in the handbook will tell you.For example this is suitable for engines with a DPF
CHAMPION OEM SPECIFIC 5W30 MS-F (1 Litre1). A very high quality motor oil, (1638185) (http://www.micksgarage.com/proddetails.aspx?pid=1638185&pk=16C4D)

Your handbook should tell you whether you need to get specific oil for engines fitted with a DPF.

[LoveB]

Should i get a dpf light on startup? There is none on mine

[Chops]

And a DPF is ?

In concern with the oil, the guys that now do my servicing have to buy in oil -; Castrol Edge Titanium 5W-30 A3/B4. This is a fully synthetic oil.

Forgot,, mines a 2011, 2.4lt

[BigJon]

And a DPF is ?


Diesel
Particulate
Filter

[Cracka]

Naks,

I only threw that in there as I didn't know that the VIN actually had some meaning to it! Eyeball, yep did that to confirm with the springs, paint colour code on each one and then confirmed with the springs weights table, 2550kg. Mine is non EU5 spec engine and has cat, I'm assuming these days all new vehicles have to have them.

I didn't actually post this to discuss oil spec as there's plenty of that already on here:D, I only mentioned oil as an example so that nobody would say "I did it because that bloke Cracka on AULRO put it on his thread."

Spudfan,

Yes you need specific oil for DPF fitted engines, and its a lot more expensive:eek:.

LoveB,

Depends if you have one? Have a look, that was why I posted this to give people a bit of an idea what to look for and then make a determination from there;). I don't get a light on start up either.

Chops,

DPF = Diesel Particulate Filter google it, they can (CAN being the operative word) cause dramas especially in a 'city' or vehicle that only does low speeds.

[TimOz]

DPF from Wiki (bold is mine):


A diesel particulate filter (or DPF) is a device designed to remove diesel particulate matter or soot from the exhaust gas of a diesel engine. Wall-flow diesel particulate filters usually remove 85% or more of the soot, and under certain conditions can attain soot removal efficiencies of close to 100%. Some filters are single-use, intended for disposal and replacement once full of accumulated ash. Others are designed to burn off the accumulated particulate either passively through the use of a catalyst or by active means such as a fuel burner which heats the filter to soot combustion temperatures; engine programming to run when the filter is full in a manner that elevates exhaust temperature or produces high amounts of NOx to oxidize the accumulated ash, or through other methods. This is known as "filter regeneration". Cleaning is also required as part of periodic maintenance, and it must be done carefully to avoid damaging the filter. Failure of fuel injectors or turbochargers resulting in contamination of the filter with raw diesel or engine oil can also necessitate cleaning.[1] The regeneration process occurs at road speeds higher than can generally be attained on city streets; vehicles driven exclusively at low speeds in urban traffic can require periodic trips at higher speeds to clean out the DPF.[2] If the driver ignores the warning light and waits too long to operate the vehicle above 40 miles per hour (64 km/h), the DPF may not regenerate properly, and continued operation past that point may spoil the DPF completely so it must be replaced.[3]

[spudfan]

And a DPF is ?

In concern with the oil, the guys that now do my servicing have to buy in oil -; Castrol Edge Titanium 5W-30 A3/B4. This is a fully synthetic oil.

Forgot,, mines a 2011, 2.4lt

I would make sure that it is A5/B5 as any oil I have seen speced for the Puma is to this spec. As an example this is what I used on my last oil change on the 2008 2.4 Puma. Have a look at the oil description.
Total Quartz 9000 Future 5W/30. 1 litre. Fully Synthetic oil for Petrol a (1212964) (http://www.micksgarage.com/proddetails.aspx?pid=1212964&pk=2870E)
Funnily enough where the manufacturers of this oil recommend it for the Puma 2.4, they do not list it as suitable for the Puma 2.2 with the DPF.
Here is another oil suitable for Pumas again it is to A5/B5 spec but is listed as O.K. for use with a DPF
http://www.micksgarage.com/proddetails.aspx?pid=1638185&pk=16C4D
If you visit the Castrol site they recommend Castrol Magnatec A1 which is to A5/B5 spec for both the Puma 2.4 and the Puma 2.2 WITHOUT a DPF. For the 2.2 fitted with a DPF Castrol tell you to refer to the Manufacturers recommendation.
Castrol EDGE oil selector (http://castroledge.com/oil-range/oil-selector)
The Castrol Edge seems to be even higher spec oil than the Castrol Magnatec but I would be looking for Castrol Edge with the A5/B5 spec. That is what the maindealer used on my last service there.

T

[Grappler]

This is the oil recommended by TopIX for my MY12 Defender PUMA, which does not have a DPF

The oil was $380 for 20 litres including some freight

[Grappler]

Sorry about thumbnail pic.

Click on this link to see the picture
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/55745d1358503627-best-engine-oil-puma-p1180753.jpgk

[Grappler]

Sorry about thumbnail pic.

Click on this link to see the picture
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/55745d1358503627-best-engine-oil-puma-p1180753.jpg

[tuesdayfox]

Hello Cracka,

Thanks for sharing this info. i followed exactly the same path as you did.
i realize that according to my VIN, my engine type is R- i guess that would be non-EU 2.2 as my CAT does not have the wires sensors etc..
is yours enigne typr R as well?
Cheers Martin

[Cracka]

Hello Cracka,

Thanks for sharing this info. i followed exactly the same path as you did.
i realize that according to my VIN, my engine type is R- i guess that would be non-EU 2.2 as my CAT does not have the wires sensors etc..
is yours enigne typr R as well?
Cheers Martin

G'day Martin,

My pleasure......yes mine is the R on the VIN as well.

Mick

[nedflanders]

The DPF system was a major headache when I was a breakdown mechanic in the UK. The main problem was it blocking because of vehicles being used on short runs and the exhaust not getting hot enough. This was supposed to be cured by a 'regen' basically on some vehicles (like Mazdas) the ECU would poor more fuel in to run hotter, what actually happens is the sump fills with diesel!! VW/Audi group had serious problems, if the handbook wasn't followed it would cost lots to have the system repaired, Audi didn't want to know!
Basically I wouldn't touch a car with one! ;)

[tuesdayfox]

G'day Martin,

My pleasure......yes mine is the R on the VIN as well.

Mick

In case anybody wonder, engine type P is the EU5 2.2

Cheers

[Dougal]

The DPF system was a major headache when I was a breakdown mechanic in the UK. The main problem was it blocking because of vehicles being used on short runs and the exhaust not getting hot enough. This was supposed to be cured by a 'regen' basically on some vehicles (like Mazdas) the ECU would poor more fuel in to run hotter, what actually happens is the sump fills with diesel!! VW/Audi group had serious problems, if the handbook wasn't followed it would cost lots to have the system repaired, Audi didn't want to know!
Basically I wouldn't touch a car with one! ;)

One of my cars has it. Over 90000km and no problems. I don't live in city, but the car used to.
The regeneration heats the exhaust by dropping boost and retarding injection timing.

[goingbush]

some more DPF info here.

Australia has just released the 4x4 (http://ivecoforums.com/topic/8811449/1/#new)

Seems the Puma DPF uses similar setup to Iveco

the chemical system on other brands they are refering to is the AdBlue system, e.g. Merc G Wagen

shopping list = DeCAT , De DPF and De EGR kit & Re MAP

[nedflanders]

One of my cars has it. Over 90000km and no problems. I don't live in city, but the car used to.
The regeneration heats the exhaust by dropping boost and retarding injection timing.

Your one of the lucky ones then, we were warned as Patrols that the BBC watchdog programe was investing for a possible show. The problem is with the UK market, to much traffic and people want smaller cars that do better mpg, small diesel cars with DPF was the biggest problem. The Mazda DOES increase fuel, I've had to crawl under th bloody things to drop the oil level! Don't believe me, have a look at one of their diptsticks, there's a Low and Hign mark and above the high another mark which is the danger level, the oil used to pour out like dirty diesel. Different manufacturers have different methods, I'm simpy talking from experience.:)

[goingbush]

Looks like fixes are popping up, check out DPF Emulator on Ebay, Remove DPF but ECU still thinks it there ,

dpf emulator | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=dpf+emulator&LH_PrefLoc=2&_arm=1&_armm=63&_ruu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3 F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3Ddpf%2Bemulator% 26_arr%3D1)

[landybehr]

The DPF is discussed on a "local" forum, too. The first vehicles with it are now more than one year old. So far I haven´t seen someone writing about trouble with it on the Defender. There´s been one guy travelling 45k km´s with his Defender, up to mountains, to desert-like area, and no problems.
My garage (not that I´d expect serious answers from this one) says the DPF on the Defender appears troublefree to them.
Not that I do like the DPF on my 2.2, the 20k faultless km´s (concerning the DPF) may not proove very much I think, but I may care for other things on the rig first.
On the Defender2 forum I learnt that the latest ECU update (must be around for 1/2year now, deals with the regen.cycle happening too often. When my dealer updated (only upon request) the "oil service" message came on when starting the car (this after the update). This is rubbish in my case because oil was changed 5k km´s earlier. Ignore it. But it could have to do with the oil contamination and that the ECU update "wants" to have the oil changed, because it was assumed that there was Diesel in it due to bad regen.cycles and hence the update wanted by the customer.
Defender2 - View topic - Q225 - ENGINE CALIBRATION UPDATE (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic21130.html?highlight=dpf+update)

The vehicle with DPF needs engine oil with zero sulfur. IIRC the appendix to the viscosity is not A oder B, but C. "C1" to be precise. That is because sulfur burning will lead to gypsum and ash. And both of them do block the DPF but cannot be removed from it. The matter with sulfur applies to the fuel, too - I´d think

[Dougal]

Your one of the lucky ones then, we were warned as Patrols that the BBC watchdog programe was investing for a possible show. The problem is with the UK market, to much traffic and people want smaller cars that do better mpg, small diesel cars with DPF was the biggest problem. The Mazda DOES increase fuel, I've had to crawl under th bloody things to drop the oil level! Don't believe me, have a look at one of their diptsticks, there's a Low and Hign mark and above the high another mark which is the danger level, the oil used to pour out like dirty diesel. Different manufacturers have different methods, I'm simpy talking from experience.:)

Not lucky, I did my homework and went in fully informed.

I frequent a UK forum for this particular car and they still are hell-bent over there on selecting diesel/petrol based on mileage per year. When IMO it should be selected on miles per journey.
Under 20km per journey, buy a petrol. Diesels regardless of DPF or not hate short, cold running. Diesels with a DPF just hate it more.

The DPF in my car has at least three regeneration modes. Passive is in normal use where it just drops boost to raise exhaust temps and let the DPF burn itself clean.
Active is where it retards injection timing as well, commonrail engines can also do a post combustion injection to add extra fuel to the exhaust fire. If you trigger these on a cold engine or at low load then I can see diesel getting into the sump.
Forced is when the vehicle is parked outside, diagnostics plugged in and it runs high idle with no boost and post injection for enough time to try and burn the DPF clear. This is what the dealer does if your DPF light comes on.

Diagnostics show my DPF is still in excellent health at ~90,000km and at current rates would survive well past 300,000km.
But those who get a smokey performance remap can kill a DPF straight away. Forums are full of those people.

I went the other way, I got a custom map done which shut down EGR (less soot), advancing injection timing and raised torque limiters without raising boost or fuel beyond stock limits. Essentially turning the flat spot on the torque curve into a smooth upward peak. Saving me almost 1 litre/100km, improving drivability and further protecting the DPF.

If an engine can be remapped, then the DPF can be mapped out of it just as easily. Those who try things like replacing the DPF with straight pipe or plug in emulators cause a few more problems.
Those periodic passive regenerations will put white smoke out the back of a vehicle without a working DPF.

Do it properly, get it mapped out if you want to remove one.

[nedflanders]

The upshot is its a complicated system, I've seen other manufacturers get it wrong and I wouldn't touch a car with one. I'd rather buy a second hand Defender without one than a new one with but that's just me. :)

[incisor]

i use CEM FTC decarbonizer (http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25)and i have no issues with the dpf setup on the vw and i know people that have and nearly all of them ceased to have trouble once they started using it.

also have no issues with the egr and i know quite a few that have.

CEM FTC decarbonizer has quite a few benefits imho

[Dougal]

The upshot is its a complicated system, I've seen other manufacturers get it wrong and I wouldn't touch a car with one. I'd rather buy a second hand Defender without one than a new one with but that's just me. :)

It is not difficult to remove a DPF from a vehicle and remap it to run correctly without it.
You're avoiding some very good vehicles (not talking defender here) with that fear.

[nedflanders]

But why should you have to use something extra just to ensure your car runs OK, VW/Audi group are marketed as being premium brands, I used to hate going to breakdowns on them (and I could spend all day on nothing but) as it was always a tow as nothing could be fixed roadside. From experience Vauxhall (or Holden/Opel) were the most unreliable followed by VW group I went out to Suburus the least and virtually no Land Rovers, I can even remember what they were, TD5 Defender with a stuck fuel cap, Defender 300TDI with a holed injector pipe, Disco water pump and a couple of flat batteries. All fixed at roadside, I drive a Defender and the wife drives a Suburu. :D

[goingbush]

Thanks inc, $120 a liter is exp for FTC but $675 for 20l seems very attractive, a winner if it stops the EGR gunking up too. and that it stops fungus too, bonus.

I used FOC and Cleanpower on a high km diesel and the results were quite impressive so their stuff does work.

makes sense to me

[Dougal]

But why should you have to use something extra just to ensure your car runs OK, VW/Audi group are marketed as being premium brands, I used to hate going to breakdowns on them (and I could spend all day on nothing but) as it was always a tow as nothing could be fixed roadside. From experience Vauxhall (or Holden/Opel) were the most unreliable followed by VW group I went out to Suburus the least and virtually no Land Rovers, I can even remember what they were, TD5 Defender with a stuck fuel cap, Defender 300TDI with a holed injector pipe, Disco water pump and a couple of flat batteries. All fixed at roadside, I drive a Defender and the wife drives a Suburu. :D

3 DPF VAG group vehicles in my family. Two of them had DPF sensors replaced (common failure across all VAG vehicles, USA built part failed). That's the extent of DPF problems for these three.
None of these vehicles use additives of any kind.

I'd never buy a subaru.

[nedflanders]

Each to there own, I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but I'm talking from my own experience, yours is obviously different. The difference between Australia and Europe is VAG are still thought of as a premium brand here, it doesn't matter where the part that fails is built, it's still fitted and still causes a breakdown!!!
It's difficult sometimes when someone has a different opinion to yours, especially when it comes to your car choice, like the lockout on a 6month Audi A4, top of the range and still in within 2minutes, the owner wasn't happy that it was so easy to break into, or the Aston Martin with a broken switch, sourced from a Ford Mondeo!!
I'm just saying if you haven't had a DPF failure your doing well :)

[Dougal]

Each to there own, I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but I'm talking from my own experience, yours is obviously different. The difference between Australia and Europe is VAG are still thought of as a premium brand here, it doesn't matter where the part that fails is built, it's still fitted and still causes a breakdown!!!
It's difficult sometimes when someone has a different opinion to yours, especially when it comes to your car choice, like the lockout on a 6month Audi A4, top of the range and still in within 2minutes, the owner wasn't happy that it was so easy to break into, or the Aston Martin with a broken switch, sourced from a Ford Mondeo!!
I'm just saying if you haven't had a DPF failure your doing well :)

In this case we have three vehicles without DPF failure. The sensors that fail aren't a breakdown, they just trip warning lights.

The way to steal cars in Europe is with a salvage trailer. No breakin necessary.

[nedflanders]

Just a matter of time. IMO VAG is overhyped garbage (there advertising IS very convincing though) but its just my opinion and as a mechanic for 25+years and some of that as a Breakdown patrol IN Europe I AM talking from experience. But if your happy then that's great :D

[steane]

Just a matter of time. IMO VAG is overhyped garbage (there advertising IS very convincing though) but its just my opinion and as a mechanic for 25+years and some of that as a Breakdown patrol IN Europe I AM talking from experience. But if your happy then that's great :D

Talk to any breakdown recovery operator and you'll soon learn what is and isn't premium on Aussie roads. Like it or not, it's not the Germans.

[Dougal]

Just a matter of time. IMO VAG is overhyped garbage (there advertising IS very convincing though) but its just my opinion and as a mechanic for 25+years and some of that as a Breakdown patrol IN Europe I AM talking from experience. But if your happy then that's great :D

Yeah I'm sure by the 10-15 year mark there'll be a DPF failure. If the cars haven't been retired by then.

I always find it funny when people slag off the biggest car manufacturer on the planet with a sweeping generalisation across their entire range. Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, MAN, Ducati etc.

So how many of your 25 years of being a mechanic have DPF's been around for? 3?
How many breakdowns do you know the history of?
How many breakdowns do you follow through the diagnosis and repair to find the true cause?
How many german car owners know how to fix anything on their vehicle?

Let me guess, the cars you see the least of in breakdown are the car companies that have done the same thing for the last 20 years?
The companies poking out 4-6 cyl petrol automatic cars across their entire range just restyled every few years?

[incisor]

Thanks inc, $120 a liter is exp for FTC but $675 for 20l seems very attractive, a winner if it stops the EGR gunking up too. and that it stops fungus too, bonus.

I used FOC and Cleanpower on a high km diesel and the results were quite impressive so their stuff does work.

makes sense to me

yep

As for others slagging off VAG vehicles, they have their issues, same as any other vehicle brand.

i have nothing but praise for my vehicle, by far the best new vehicle i have ever owned, pity i cant say the same for the dealers on my side of town.

but that is another issue ;)

[sheerluck]

yep

As for others slagging off VAG vehicles, they have their issues, same as any other vehicle brand.

i have nothing but praise for my vehicle, by far the best new vehicle i have ever owned, pity i cant say the same for the dealers on my side of town.

but that is another issue ;)

Same here Inc. Very happy with my Golf, 2 years and 42,000 Kms after purchase new. No DPF issues either.

Dealers south of the river, and even west into Ippy are no better than your experience.

[Blade74]

I had my Discovery 4 for three years and did 80000kms with not one DPF issue. I just made sure I did a few longer highway drives every month or two and stuck with the Castrol edge professional C1 oil.
I changed the oil every 8000kms.
The engine was still like new when I sold it. Probably only just run in ;-)...

[Blade74]

I was actually more concerned with a possible turbo issue outside of warranty as they have to lift the whole body off the rolling chassis to get to the turbos.
Having two meant there were two to possibly fail.
I was guessing a turbo replacement was going to cost somewhere around $8000.
Happy with the Defender turbo as I could easily buy a new one for around a grand and change it myself over a weekend. :-)

[nedflanders]

Yeah I'm sure by the 10-15 year mark there'll be a DPF failure. If the cars haven't been retired by then.

I always find it funny when people slag off the biggest car manufacturer on the planet with a sweeping generalisation across their entire range. Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, MAN, Ducati etc.

So how many of your 25 years of being a mechanic have DPF's been around for? 3?
How many breakdowns do you know the history of?
How many breakdowns do you follow through the diagnosis and repair to find the true cause?
How many german car owners know how to fix anything on their vehicle?

Let me guess, the cars you see the least of in breakdown are the car companies that have done the same thing for the last 20 years?
The companies poking out 4-6 cyl petrol automatic cars across their entire range just restyled every few years?


FFS chill out, as long as DPF's have been about there has been problems, the BBC were compiling evidence for a programme on DPF issues and VAG's attitude to customers getting 2-3K bills. People slag Land Rovers off all the time, do you throw your teddy then as well :)

I really didn't realize VAG owners were such a sensitive lot!!

[Dougal]

FFS chill out, as long as DPF's have been about there has been problems, the BBC were compiling evidence for a programme on DPF issues and VAG's attitude to customers getting 2-3K bills. People slag Land Rovers off all the time, do you throw your teddy then as well :)

I really didn't realize VAG owners were such a sensitive lot!!

I am chilled. Just challenging completely ridiculous blanket comments so the bs doesn't spread.

It's very clear you've never owned or worked on a DPF diesel. Sure they fail sometimes, usually when used in completely the wrong way. Just like everything else.

[sheerluck]

FFS chill out, as long as DPF's have been about there has been problems, the BBC were compiling evidence for a programme on DPF issues and VAG's attitude to customers getting 2-3K bills. People slag Land Rovers off all the time, do you throw your teddy then as well :)

I really didn't realize VAG owners were such a sensitive lot!!

At the risk of straying further off topic......:angel:

I think that VW's attitude to the gearbox issues here absolutely stinks. Not issuing a recall, as they have in other countries, just displays an arrogance beyond belief.

However, I am a happy customer, and not sensitive in the slightest. Just get a little annoyed when someone trashes a whole brand on the basis of a handful of examples. Much the same as Toyota drivers do to LR.......;)

[incisor]

I think that VW's attitude to the gearbox issues here absolutely stinks. Not issuing a recall, as they have in other countries, just displays an arrogance beyond belief.


not to mention our weak consumer protection laws...

the issue is with the 7 speed dry clutch version. it is weaker that the older wet clutch 6 speed that i have... they stopped putting them in caddy maxi very early on i believe and went back to the 6 speed.

anybody driving a modern spec vehicle with lead free soldered electronics is going to be in a whole world of hurt at about the 10 year mark according to
NASA who have found a few interesting things about how long it lasts...

[Dougal]

not to mention our weak consumer protection laws...

the issue is with the 7 speed dry clutch version. it is weaker that the older wet clutch 6 speed that i have... they stopped putting them in caddy maxi very early on i believe and went back to the 6 speed.

anybody driving a modern spec vehicle with lead free soldered electronics is going to be in a whole world of hurt at about the 10 year mark according to
NASA who have found a few interesting things about how long it lasts...

They have two 7sp transverse DSG's now. The 250Nm max one in all the small engines (up to 1.6 litre diesel) and the big one used in the Tiguan, Q3 and right up to the vans. Durability issues aside, I just didn't like how they drove. I found a 6sp manual and love it.

But yes those tin-whiskers can be trouble. Laptop makers did a lot of consumer beta testing about a decade ago, so we have those as early indicators. Toshiba apparently warrantied all of some models.

[Graeme]

anybody driving a modern spec vehicle with lead free soldered electronics is going to be in a whole world of hurt at about the 10 year mark according to
NASA who have found a few interesting things about how long it lasts...
Last I knew it wasn't approved for armed forces use for the same reasons and why I don't use it.

[PAT303]

We have nothing but issue's with the DPF on Isuzu trucks,even when it's done correctly they still play up and Isuzu have no interest in fixing the problem,a friend of mine has a Mazda 4 and it's been back for PDF issue's,again done as per instructions and the engine warning light used to come on,by far the biggest issue is the heat they produce,I do alot of outback K's and fire is one reason I'd never own one.Last swing I parked up our welders truck and let it do a regen cycle and the heat off the PDF would start a fire in seconds if it was packed with spinifex,I think thats going to be a common topic on online forums when thier numbers increase in the interior. Pat

[Dougal]

It would take someone very special to trigger a forced regeneration over dry grass.:firedevil:

[PAT303]

You haven't done much outback driving have you ;). Pat

[Dougal]

You haven't done much outback driving have you ;). Pat

You do understand "forced regen"? It's not about how dry the grass is in the outback. They are manually triggered and shouldn't be run over anything combustible.

It's like smoking in the dangerous goods shed.

[PAT303]

So what happens after a days driving over dry grass or spinifex that builds up under the vehicle and then the PDF does a burn?,many vehicles have burnt to the ground from the muffler heat and it's nothing compared to a PDF. Pat

[tuesdayfox]

Doesn't sound attractive to me.....

[Dougal]

So what happens after a days driving over dry grass or spinifex that builds up under the vehicle and then the PDF does a burn?,many vehicles have burnt to the ground from the muffler heat and it's nothing compared to a PDF. Pat

Where is the DPF on these trucks? On my car it's tucked up against the turbo for maximum heat. It's not a place grass can get to.

[isuzurover]

Back closer to topic...

Euro 4 spec was set intending DPFs to be fitted. Most manufacturers managed to meet Euro 4 with tuning and an oxy-cat - so no DPF.
So most Euro 4 spec vehicles do not have a DPF - just an oxy-cat.

Euro 5/6 Introduced a particle number concentration limit, to force all manufacturers to fit a DPF.

The Australian automotive industry has said that Euro 5/6 is too hard to meet at present, and negotiated a gradual phase-in of 5/6 until 2018 (passenger vehicles), with the particle number concentration limit the last
item to be introduced.

Imported vehicles may or may not have the DPF removed for the Australian market. Most Australian made diesels will not yet have a DPF.


As for spinifex and DPFs... On tracks like the CSR, most of the burnt out vehicles littered along the tracks are petrols. Some of these presumably due to spinifex fires. Modern diesels without DPFs could also have spinifex collect around the turbo or oxy-cat. If you are driving in tall grass or spinifex in any (modern) vehicle you would need to stop and clean the vehicle regularly.

[nedflanders]

I am chilled. Just challenging completely ridiculous blanket comments so the bs doesn't spread.

It's very clear you've never owned or worked on a DPF diesel. Sure they fail sometimes, usually when used in completely the wrong way. Just like everything else.

Wrong-, I have worked on them (I was a patrol with the second largest breakdown service in the UK and they had the contract with VAG)

Right-, I haven't owned one and wouldn't because of the above.

I apologise if it seems like a blanket statement, I'll be more specific - any diesel produced by VAG with a DPF and 4 wheels is ****e. :D

[isuzurover]

Wrong-, I have worked on them (I was a patrol with the second largest breakdown service in the UK and they had the contract with VAG)

Right-, I haven't owned one and wouldn't because of the above.

I apologise if it seems like a blanket statement, I'll be more specific - any diesel produced by VAG with a DPF and 4 wheels is ****e. :D

I travel to Germany once or twice a year, and almost everyone I know and work with there has a VW or Audi diesel. None have ever reported DPF problems.

There were a lot of initial problems with backyard mechanics or tightarse owners using the wrong oil.

[Dougal]

Wrong-, I have worked on them (I was a patrol with the second largest breakdown service in the UK and they had the contract with VAG)

Right-, I haven't owned one and wouldn't because of the above.

I apologise if it seems like a blanket statement, I'll be more specific - any diesel produced by VAG with a DPF and 4 wheels is ****e. :D

Breakdown patrol counts as working on vehicles?

[nedflanders]

Breakdown patrol counts as working on vehicles?

Slightly different in the UK, the incentive is to FIX rather than flatbed, as soon as it goes on a truck you loose your bonus. As a patrol you were penalized heavily and lead patrol would have words if to many went on the truck as every tow the company lost money. ;)

So again yes I have worked on VAG ****boxes, although VW did produce Hitlers favorite car the Beetle, so not all bad then!!;)

[nedflanders]

I travel to Germany once or twice a year, and almost everyone I know and work with there has a VW or Audi diesel. None have ever reported DPF problems.

There were a lot of initial problems with backyard mechanics or tightarse owners using the wrong oil.

Really, and there was me thinking most of the ones I saw were Dealer serviced and within the first 24monthsof ownership :)

[sheerluck]

.......I apologise if it seems like a blanket statement, I'll be more specific - any diesel produced by VAG with a DPF and 4 wheels is ****e. :D

Ok, oh learned one, explain that sentence for me. I own a 2011 Golf, with a 1.6 TD engine, manual gearbox, DPF, four wheels. I jump in it every day, every day it starts first time, it gets me to and from work (80km round trip) and uses less than 4l/100km in the process. It has seen the inside of a workshop twice, for routine servicing. It has no rattles or squeaks, nothing has broken, nothing failed.

How is that ****e?

[landybehr]

There certainly are some things that spell for trouble sometimes.
A friend works in a garage on VW and Audi.

When they had a works meeting some trainers asked what they thought which engine was the most troublesome.
All of the mechanics named the same (a "basic", common engine, don´t know which exactly). But it only had a failure rate of less than 1%. There was another engine (a more sophisticated engine, only present in the "buyer spends more $$ on it" line) which has 5-10% failures. But the mechanics never see it in the workshop because it is so scarce.
It like with the HIV Test. It´s result is 99,99% true. But still this means that one test out of 10,000 is wrong. So even a very small failure will be seen pretty often if the test group is large.

Same may be true to the DPFs.

[nedflanders]

Ok, oh learned one, explain that sentence for me. I own a 2011 Golf, with a 1.6 TD engine, manual gearbox, DPF, four wheels. I jump in it every day, every day it starts first time, it gets me to and from work (80km round trip) and uses less than 4l/100km in the process. It has seen the inside of a workshop twice, for routine servicing. It has no rattles or squeaks, nothing has broken, nothing failed.

How is that ****e?

Lucky ;)

[sheerluck]

Lucky ;)

Oh good, another generalisation. You should buy a Toyota. ;)

[nedflanders]

Toyota, no chance the brakes are all knackered on them :D

Forgot, we did have a VW when I was a kid, a camper. The engine seized in Scotland but the bed was comfortable :D

[goingbush]

speaking of Toyotas I just searched LCOOL for DPF issues, and can't find any,
but this is very interesting

(from another forum)

Due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negativ impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphor contained) diesel.

The engine-research centre of a well known German car manufacurer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. This introduction to explain were my information comes from.
The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!

BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homoeophatic dosis of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70l diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.

Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burnes cleaner as the diesel itself.

In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.
One more information: in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongs others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.
The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.
The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.
Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the milage by 3-5%.
_________________

hmmm, wonder if 2 stroke is as good as FTC ???

[isuzurover]

speaking of Toyotas I just searched LCOOL for DPF issues, and can't find any,
but this is very interesting


hmmm, wonder if 2 stroke is as good as FTC ???

Sorry GB but that post you quoted is a complete pile of brown stinky stuff.
For starters, sulphur is a contaminant not a lubricant. It does not improve lubricity.

[landybehr]

Referring to the bush fires - if a DPF is causing a fire, how dare people to drive same places with petrol engined cars with cats? I think their usual operating temperatures ought to be even higher.