The Right Winch

[mike_beecham]

Hi All,
Is a 9500lbs winch sufficient for the Defender? I do tow a camper trailer. But would not be in any "extreme" situations.

I have usually had 10,000lbs but not much between the two.

Looking at Warn.

Thank in advance.

Mike

[Loubrey]

Mike,

The Warn XD9000 and the old XD9000i (bridged) are under most circumstances sufficient (never found a situation where they even strained) and Warn's 9500 lbs winches are superb.

IMO you won't go wrong if you are prepared for the outlay.

If you are really that stuck there is always the option to uncouple, recover the car and then nice a gently recover the trailer with the winch itself. The stress on the front of the chassis above that would be concerning in any case.

Cheers,

Lou

[Yorkshire_Jon]

The 9500's are an ideal mating to a defender chassis.

Don't forget also about the option of double line pulls if you can't safely unhitch. Just make sure you have 1 or 2 solid anchor points on the front bar.

There is a similar thread elsewhere on here from last week I think that discussed something similar.


R
J

Sent using Forum Runner

[mike_beecham]

Thanks lads. I suspected so!
WARN 9500 is advertised at about $1800.

Haven't seen it much better than that??
(Not interested in importing from US etc etc).

Mike

[Alra]

Thanks lads. I suspected so!
WARN 9500 is advertised at about $1800.

Haven't seen it much better than that??
(Not interested in importing from US etc etc).

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm in the process of winch purchasing at the moment for my 110. I'm going with the Smittybuilt X20 10,000lb with rope. It is new on the market and looked long and hard before deciding about this one. The selling point that got me was the water resistance and UV treated rope. A trusted friend at ARB pointed me in the direction of the Smittybuilt.

Prior to that I was going to go with the Warn Magnum 10K. The Smittybuilt is $1100.00 from memory. I think an extra $200-$300 to have it installed. I wish I had it on the car already so I could comment on the performance. Install date is the 9th of next month.

Cheers,

Danial.

[mike_beecham]

Would like to look into these - but can not seem to find anyone selling them Victoria?

Mike

[Sitec]

Don't forget the reliable old Tirfor!! Can be used anywhere, front, back, left, right... Portable etc etc... Great when you've dropped your vehicle on its side in a forestry track somewhere and are alone!!!! These nice big electric winches are the first thing to end up a foot under water or buried in a bank that you have just driven into!! :) not only that, the Tirfor sits on the shelf at home when you are back from the trip saving fuel!! I know they are slow and involve effort, but that makes you think twice before driving into that bog!!! Just my 2 cents worth! $400 will buy you a nice one with the correct cable, a strap and pulley block. Good luck with your choice. You can't go wrong with a Warn either way!!

Gumtree advert no 1013592548 Tirfor T- 516. This is what I have and use with a Fender 130..

[Alra]

Would like to look into these - but can not seem to find anyone selling them Victoria?

Mike

Hi again Mike,

Did you try your nearest ARB store? If not see if they can help.

Cheers,

Danial.

[n plus one]

Just finished turning myself inside out re which winch- ended up going with a Warn XP9.5 with wire rope.

Hasn't been used in anger yet so nothing meaningful to report,other than the overall quality looks good.

The other winch on my list was the Mako Avenger - gets good reports, doesn't have drum heating issues and is a good price too.

[newhue]

Have you guys looked into hydraulic winches. They will run all day, as long as you cars motor is spinning. Don't be fooled onto an electric winch working anything past a minute or so if the motor is not running either.
I'm pondering on Runva brand. Not sure how they are just yet but you can get a winch and a pto oil pump in the truck for around 3k. A bit pricy compared to electric, but also a lot more dependable. I'm guessing all winches or most are Chinese made these days, just need to work out value and build quality bit.

[n plus one]

Have you guys looked into hydraulic winches. They will run all day, as long as you cars motor is spinning. Don't be fooled onto an electric winch working anything past a minute or so if the motor is not running either.
I'm pondering on Ruvna brand. Not sure how they are just yet but you can get a winch and a pto oil pump in the truck for around 3k. A bit pricy compared to electric, but also a lot more dependable. I'm guessing all winches or most are Chinese made these days, just need to work out value and build quality bit.

I did, but couldn't get it to happen under $5k (and probably more like $6-7k. I think they're a solid option if you can get one for the right coin.

[uninformed]

Have you guys looked into hydraulic winches. They will run all day, as long as you cars motor is spinning. Don't be fooled onto an electric winch working anything past a minute or so if the motor is not running either.
I'm pondering on Ruvna brand. Not sure how they are just yet but you can get a winch and a pto oil pump in the truck for around 3k. A bit pricy compared to electric, but also a lot more dependable. I'm guessing all winches or most are Chinese made these days, just need to work out value and build quality bit.

Price a good electric winch, 2x good HD batteries, 1x dual battery electrics and cable etc....it starts to get close. Im happy with my Hyd and me being me would only look at Hyd or pto...yes elec is good for some things but after having one on my old RRC and only being able to do 1 full length line pull after motor died before both batteries were DEAD, it kinda made me realise, if you want a really good elec set up you do have to spend $$$ close to that of hyd.

In my Tdi, if my engine fails, I have equally if not bigger problems than being stuck....

[newhue]

That's my thinking, I have an electric cheapie at the moment which has done the odd small pull. But its also in the back of my mind the day I need it a lot it may fail. Where as PTO hydraulic doesn't get any better or reliable in my book.

These Runva units are in eBay for $900, but have steel cable.

[ugu80]

Have you guys looked into hydraulic winches. They will run all day, as long as you cars motor is spinning. Don't be fooled onto an electric winch working anything past a minute or so if the motor is not running either.
I'm pondering on Runva brand. Not sure how they are just yet but you can get a winch and a pto oil pump in the truck for around 3k. A bit pricy compared to electric, but also a lot more dependable. I'm guessing all winches or most are Chinese made these days, just need to work out value and build quality bit.

If money is no obstacle: Red Winches (http://www.red-winches.com/)

[ProjectDirector]

That's my thinking, I have an electric cheapie at the moment which has done the odd small pull. But its also in the back of my mind the day I need it a lot it may fail. Where as PTO hydraulic doesn't get any better or reliable in my book.

These Runva units are in eBay for $900, but have steel cable.

Guys I have an old refurbised PTO winch that was used on the old FJ cruser with rope and drive but no linkages if anyone is interested.

Cheers

[Sitec]

Mile Marker for hydraulic winches... but fit it under the rear, along with its hydraulic tank, hosework etc.. But yes, I still swear by my Tirfor as I can still work it with a flat battery, non runner, buried vehicle etc etc... :cool:

[Ancient Mariner]

If your starter dies you can towstart your self with a electric winch :cool:
manual only:mad:

[newhue]

Guys I have an old refurbised PTO winch that was used on the old FJ cruser with rope and drive but no linkages if anyone is interested.

Cheers

PM sent.

[uninformed]

Mile Marker for hydraulic winches... but fit it under the rear, along with its hydraulic tank, hosework etc.. But yes, I still swear by my Tirfor as I can still work it with a flat battery, non runner, buried vehicle etc etc... :cool:

yes Tifors are very good and for many reasons....But mostly there isnt to many situations where your car is dead and thats not the biggest problem....

Mile Marker are pretty good....except the powdercoating has flaked off mine due to the cast alloy corroding underneth it.....such is the like of a coastal dweller :mad:

[newhue]

If money is no obstacle: Red Winches (http://www.red-winches.com/)

Actually Red Winches or First Four is where I have been looking at the PTO drive. But the winches are too expansive, so that's why the Runva entered the equation.

The trusty electric winches are a good alternative at a good price point. And for most of us the amount we use them justifies the price. But there is a reason tow trucks don't run electric winches.

A hydraulic winch driven by a PTO, and all those gears for various line speeds it's a very good option.

[Tombie]

I ran a hydraulic on my D1.

Could celebrate a birthday during a winch recovery!

Even with dedicated pump they are tedious at best.

And when I needed it (bogged in mud and water up the doors) then engine wouldn't run!

And yes, you can winch for at least the length of a river crossing or mud hole on electric - been there, done that, plenty of times...

[uninformed]

I ran a hydraulic on my D1.

Could celebrate a birthday during a winch recovery!

Even with dedicated pump they are tedious at best.

And when I needed it (bogged in mud and water up the doors) then engine wouldn't run!

And yes, you can winch for at least the length of a river crossing or mud hole on electric - been there, done that, plenty of times...

Im guessing yours was driven from the Powersteering pump? Was your D1 a V8?

Your third comment is absolute BS! My stock Mile Marker with dedicated pto pump will out pull any stock electric winch. Im not talking line load as we know thats a different subject, (my 9000lb is not going to out pull a 15000ib winch is it) but line speed under load. Yes Im using my Mile Marker in the lower of the 2 speeds. It will beat a Warn hi-mount hands down (warns fastest electric winch) There are many different types of winch gearboxes and ratios, along with hyd pumps and motors driving them. So for even a given l/m pump output you can not make a broad statement about hyd winches being slow....surely you have seen atleast one you tube video of a hyd winch pulling speed.

Yes you can do "x" amount of pull without the engine running using an electric winch, but how much depends on the condition of your battery and your elec set up(not to mention load on winch ie how bogged you are). If these arent high quality and in top notch condition, forget about doing more than 1 length of cable (30m max)..."been there done that" to quote you.

For me running a diesel I figure if my engine is dead, Im in all sorts of trouble already.

[Sitec]

I'll second that 'uninformed'.. The hydraulic winch we had under the rear of the 110 was the fastest thing I've ever used... We ran a big Dowty pump on the back of the transfer case.. First gear and Tfer in Neutral, and once the bulk of the hard work was done, up to third gear and stand back! Wish I had a vid, as it used to make people look twice!! Bigger PTO pump Tombie and yours should be a lot quicker!

[Tombie]

Mine was PTO driven.

Still wasn't impressed enough to say it was worth hassle, cost or benefit.

I'm not in a comp truck after all.

Whilst a few comp trucks have gone hydraulic not a lot have.

I don't even have one on mine at the moment :)

[Tombie]

Just for the record - of the 2 recoveries of my vehicle(s) I've ever had to make using my winch.

On neither occasion was the engine running.

Had to shut down both times to avoid spraying crap all over the electrics.

[uninformed]

I ran a hydraulic on my D1.

Could celebrate a birthday during a winch recovery!

Even with dedicated pump they are tedious at best.

And when I needed it (bogged in mud and water up the doors) then engine wouldn't run!

And yes, you can winch for at least the length of a river crossing or mud hole on electric - been there, done that, plenty of times...


Mine was PTO driven.

Still wasn't impressed enough to say it was worth hassle, cost or benefit.

I'm not in a comp truck after all.

Whilst a few comp trucks have gone hydraulic not a lot have.

I don't even have one on mine at the moment :)

Can you tell me what brand/type of hyd winch, what pump were you using?

Id really like to know and then to what elec winch you are comparing it to to call "Hyd winches tediuos at best"...I hope not a twin motor, as after all these arent comp trucks.

Btw, If I hadnt gone Hyd, I would have gone PTO. Had one on an old series and loved it also. Im not saying Hyd the best and elec crap, no way. Its horses for coarses....but some of your statements lack fact, to which didnt you once leave the site because of all the BS that some people were posting as fact :confused:

[uninformed]

Just for the record - of the 2 recoveries of my vehicle(s) I've ever had to make using my winch.

On neither occasion was the engine running.

Had to shut down both times to avoid spraying crap all over the electrics.

Was it a V8 Petrol? are you talking about water/mud in the engine bay being sprayed around by the fan?

With my old RRC, I did a small creek crossing (had done a few before in that day) and it died. I winched out of the creek to which my dual batteries now dead. I can tell you, I was inexperienced, hadnt preped the engine properly, wasnt aware of my so so battery conditions etc. So more so me than the vehicle, but it did point out some weeknesses. Since I now have a mechanical diesel, I figure Im FUBAR if my engine dies mid water crossing :D

[Tombie]

Lot of miles since then. If I'm lucky there's a note of it in boxes in the workshop.

It was a Cross Pump running a milemarker winch.


So lets instead put some facts out there for the layman having a read...

Electric winch - requires winch and cabling.

Hydraulic - requires winch, cabling, hydraulic plumbing (base install using PS pump)

Proper functioning Hyd =
+ $500 pump
+ reservoir
+ PTO adapter
+ custom hyd lines.

For a device that most will only use a few times in the life of a vehicle...

And yea most won't plumb up a PTO drive, so yes... Slow as heck when done the original way.

And comparing $$$ the Hyd will cost more than a Warn of equiv pull rating.

However hydraulic is lower maint.
Sealed much better
No heat buildup issues with sufficient tank capacity
On "base" installations can't steer and winch
2 speed gearbox



Your install would compare with a comp spec, dual motor electric for cost etc...

I should have been more specific :)


Alas, another thread today that I should have just ignored ;)

I am so glad you feel the need to try so hard to second guess me. I eagerly await the next onslaught.

[mike_beecham]

Well...
Thanks for the discussion above, however, l am not in any way looking to go hydr. This vehicle had hydr (to PS pump) and was SLOW AS A WET WEEK IN GIPPSLAND.

Not interested. I would use a winch 4 times a year. 2 of them up bush. 2 of them pulling stuff around the farm! I just want the job done. Quick. Reliably etc etc. Hence looking at WARN.


Mike

[uninformed]

Thanks tombie

Now for some corrections. If you want to winch with the engine off and be able to restart, you need a good hd second battery and appropriate dual battery system so add that to the costs.

Comparing pull ratings I agree, a 9000lb winch is a 9000lb winch and you can get electric cheapies these days. They won't have the duty cycle of a better elec or hyd but are cheaper.

You didn't need to be more specific, you were just wrong on your speed comment. It was quite specific ;)

[mike_beecham]

Evening all
Does anyone know anything about the WARN VR Series?
I can get a 10,000lbs for about $1300.

I believe they may not be sold in Aus?
I believe they are a 'cheaper' version of a 'standard' WARN?

Anyone?

Mike

[uninformed]

Mike, have you looked at warns hi mount? They are ment to be pretty good all round. Maybe you all ready have a low mount bull bar?

Sorry mate, missed your last post. I don't know anything about them.

[mike_beecham]

Would prefer low mount l think.
Happy to pay upto $1800.

Have seriously considered RUNVA. They have 10,000lbs ith rope for $649. I hear good things. But they are Chinese made? But not in same category as 'Aldi style' jobs.

I guess at the end of the day - if l need to winch out of trouble in Vic High Country l dont want a failure. Cause that will cost me $3000 in recovery fees!

Mike

[uninformed]

Fair enough. Speaking of Chinese, aren't the tigerz or something ment to be ok? Are Ramsey or Superwinch still supported in Oz?

[mike_beecham]

I've had a Tigerz....not impressed. Have one for sale in fact (10,000lbs w. rope).

Not sure re: Superwinch.

Mike

[Tank]

I hope that any of you out there about to purchase a winch don't believe the crap that these winch manufacturers say about the capacity of their winches.
For instance a Warn winch of 9500lbs cap.(4318kgs.) is just that, the maximum the winch will haul before it ****s itself or stalls. Fitted, with say a 9mm 7 strand IWRC winch cable with a Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) around 4100kgs. (9020lbs.).
So if you want to buy a winch that will do the job, ignore what the maker says, he don't give a **** if you bust a cable and whip someone's head off.
When buying a winch the main consideration should be the Safe Working Load of the CABLE, which is 1/5 of the GBS of the cable. If you buy a 9mm cable the SWL will be around 820kgs. or 1800lbs, so the criteria for purchasing a winch is the GBS of the cable divided by 5 which is the Safety Factor (SF). the weakest link in winching is the cable go for the thicker cable everytime at least 11mm dia..
Just remember that the winch seller wants you to buy the big number winches and cables, but the numbers they advertise are at the limit of destruction, so be aware and ask what is the SWL or Working Load Limit of their winches and esp. the cable/rope, Regards Frank.

[newhue]

Mike, my guess a $1300 Warn is Chinese made and price pitched for people who want the name buy can't afford it. But that is only a guess.
I don't know much about Warn but the guy at work has watched 3 go up in smoke and has gone Hydro.
I have a Tigers 12000 cheapy at $800 with 11mm dyneema. Part of my reasoning was based on what Tank said. I rang their average network to discuss regular maintenance. Without letting him know what I had he went on a rather long spiel about the 10's are no good due to some design issue. The 9's are OK, but the 12's were good for what they are. As far as maintenance goes, it was just checking the seal on the solenoid box. I did this from new, but also carry a spare. At $59 it's not unreasonable insurance.

[uninformed]

I hope that any of you out there about to purchase a winch don't believe the crap that these winch manufacturers say about the capacity of their winches.
For instance a Warn winch of 9500lbs cap.(4318kgs.) is just that, the maximum the winch will haul before it ****s itself or stalls. Fitted, with say a 9mm 7 strand IWRC winch cable with a Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) around 4100kgs. (9020lbs.).
So if you want to buy a winch that will do the job, ignore what the maker says, he don't give a **** if you bust a cable and whip someone's head off.
When buying a winch the main consideration should be the Safe Working Load of the CABLE, which is 1/5 of the GBS of the cable. If you buy a 9mm cable the SWL will be around 820kgs. or 1800lbs, so the criteria for purchasing a winch is the GBS of the cable divided by 5 which is the Safety Factor (SF). the weakest link in winching is the cable go for the thicker cable everytime at least 11mm dia..
Just remember that the winch seller wants you to buy the big number winches and cables, but the numbers they advertise are at the limit of destruction, so be aware and ask what is the SWL or Working Load Limit of their winches and esp. the cable/rope, Regards Frank.

Frank, I get what you are saying, but how often are we lifting the weight of our vehicle? To have a SF of 5, most of us would need a GBS of between 25-30k lbs :o so what dia cable would that be? Will it, within its safe specs, wrap around the small dia of the drum? And can you get a winch block for that dia?

Winching is dangerous. It comes down to good practice and common sense. As has been stated we arent competing here so time can be spent in the set up of recovery.

There are many many vehicles out there when loaded would be near 3000kg/6600lb. These rigs seem to be getting away with 9500/10000 lb winch set ups. Yes bad accidents have occured but alot of these were just plain bad practice.

I helped my mate recover his 7000kg/15400lb 4wd tractor that was bogged down to the axles and wasnt going anyware. Using his LR and a 8000lb pto winch with a double line pull and the vehicle chained to a big tree. It was enough with the tractor driving to help to get it out of the bog......

Safety is a big, important issue, but at what point do we need a 20,000lb winch? As you say that 9500 is the max the winch will pull....and only on the bottom layer of the drum. So if the cable is rated at the same then it should be safe if on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th layer as the winch should stall out right??

Im just saying there are alot of variables....

Speaking of cable, and since alot seem to go for synthetic rope over wire these days, where are the brakes in these electric winches? Are some inside the drum, causing heat issues with the synthetic rope?

[Tank]

Frank, I get what you are saying, but how often are we lifting the weight of our vehicle? To have a SF of 5, most of us would need a GBS of between 25-30k lbs :o so what dia cable would that be? Will it, within its safe specs, wrap around the small dia of the drum? And can you get a winch block for that dia?

Winching is dangerous. It comes down to good practice and common sense. As has been stated we arent competing here so time can be spent in the set up of recovery.

There are many many vehicles out there when loaded would be near 3000kg/6600lb. These rigs seem to be getting away with 9500/10000 lb winch set ups. Yes bad accidents have occured but alot of these were just plain bad practice.

I helped my mate recover his 7000kg/15400lb 4wd tractor that was bogged down to the axles and wasnt going anyware. Using his LR and a 8000lb pto winch with a double line pull and the vehicle chained to a big tree. It was enough with the tractor driving to help to get it out of the bog......

Safety is a big, important issue, but at what point do we need a 20,000lb winch? As you say that 9500 is the max the winch will pull....and only on the bottom layer of the drum. So if the cable is rated at the same then it should be safe if on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th layer as the winch should stall out right??

Im just saying there are alot of variables....

Speaking of cable, and since alot seem to go for synthetic rope over wire these days, where are the brakes in these electric winches? Are some inside the drum, causing heat issues with the synthetic rope?
You are completely missing my point, you said it yourself that winching doesn't always exceed the limitations of the equipment.
My POINT is that sellers of these winches are selling winches with a stall/destruction capacity that is higher than the GUARANTEED Breaking Strain of the rope.
A 9mm wire rope is GUARANTEED to BREAK at around 9000lbs, and that is when it is new and hasn't had it's guts ripped out by being run around the woeful excuses for pulley blocks for sale.
Now maybe never will the GBS of the cable be reached in a straight pull, but it only needs the driver of the bogged vehicle to make a mistake and overun the cable and suddenly slip back with a sudden jerk, loads can triple in these cases.
That's why Safety Factors are necessary because from the first use/abuse the cable is deteriorating.
Winch drums have the brake inside the drum (Hi-mounts usually have them external) and can get hot and Dyneema rope cannot withstand too much heat. When buying a winch take into account the Safe Working Load of the Cable/rope and you should have safe recoveries, Regards Frank.

[uninformed]

Ok Frank, so what cable dia/breaking strain do you recommend for a 9000lb winch? And what is the safe minimum dia that size cable can be wrapped around?

[Tank]

Ok Frank, so what cable dia/breaking strain do you recommend for a 9000lb winch? And what is the safe minimum dia that size cable can be wrapped around?
I have 11mm, 12mm would probably be the maximum, though the message is work WITHIN the limits of your equipment, NOT to the LIMIT, Regards Frank.

[uninformed]

thanks, what is the GBS of 11mm and 12mm? What do you consider a good pulley block? Is it more dia of the pulley?

[Tank]

thanks, what is the GBS of 11mm and 12mm? What do you consider a good pulley block? Is it more dia of the pulley?
11mm about 1400kgs. SWL, about 7000kgs GBS, 12mm about 1700kgsSWL, about 8500kgs GBS. This is for 7 strand Independent Wire Rope Core (IWRC) of good quality, so I would knock up to 200Kgs of chinese ropes esp those supplied without an eye thimble on the hook end.
Diameter of the pulley is critical to not kinking and breaking individual wires, when a wire cable passes over a sheave pulley the outside of the rope is stretched, while the underside is compressed. If the groove in the pulley is too wide the rope will crush, if it is too narrow it will cut the outside wires and if the dia. is too small the rope will kink and twist, esp. if the rope is fed through the pulley against the "Lay" of the rope. The pulleys on sale through 4wd suppliers in my opinion are about half the dia. they should be. Google Riggers Guide or the Guttenberg book of rigging and knots to learn about lay of the rope and how they sholud be installed on Winch drums or which way they should feed through a pulley, Regards Frank.

[newhue]

That's pretty interesting Tank. I know my dyneema rope is crushed in all sorts of flat shapes. Quite often changing from flat horizontal to flat vertical but the rope is still kind of straight, or perhaps in its lay of the rope.

I was told don't wind it on all neat and tidy, for when winching the rope tightens under pull into it's spooled self and makes it very hard to pul out. So I loosely spooling it on with a bit of crossing over, but this chews up space on the drum and the rope crushes on the winch housings for the last 4 or so meters.

oohhh if life was simple, i wouldn't have to worry so much.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I agree with a 9000 / 9500 winch you should look towards an 11mm rope.

Also, what's not been mentioned to date is how much rope you can get on a drum. Normally speaking you get about 100' of 9mm wire on a 9000lb winch and Normally you can get about 110' of 11mm rope on the same drum.

Sent using Forum Runner

[uninformed]

Frank, If those pulley blocks are 50% too small, what about the drum dia? Most drums on recreational 4x4 winches are approx 75mm dia. My PWB ANCHOR winching blocks are 125mm dia....so it seems there may be some problems from the get go, or is there a difference between it being pulled tightly around the drum compared to around a rotating pulley?

FWIW, my winch blocks are max load pulling of 8 tonne, designed for upto 11mm dia rope and they are greasable.

A 250mm dia winch block is a big bloody thing to carry in ones recovery kit.

regarding wire rope, should winch cable have a core like rope? Is there a specific grade that is best? You mention 7 strand, how many strands in each strand?

newhue, I have heard the same re laying synthetic rope on the winch drum, through can not confirm or deny it as fact/best practice. Something about 3x dia of rope, space between each wind around drum.

Yorkshire_Jon I think you got that back to front mate. You are going to fit more length of smaller dia rope on a drum of given width and height.

[flagg]

Went through the same process as Tank when trying to choose a winch. I was horrified when I found that none of the usual rope people were selling had a suitable SWL.. Also the cost of rope with a reasonable SWL was more than most winches!

I ended up with 12mm Dynamica. It has a GBS of 16tonne (at the splice) and is UV resistant. BUT the RRP is also $1250 for 50mts!

Also I find it ammusing when people say that hydraulic winches are better than electronic because with the engine off an electronic winch will flatten the battery in a minute.. That is a minute more winching that is possible without an engine with a hydraulic winch.. and it is quite likely that that minute will get you out of the river where at least you can get your gear out and make a cup of tea :angel:

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Yorkshire_Jon I think you got that back to front mate. You are going to fit more length of smaller dia rope on a drum of given width and height.

No, it's right. The drums are not normally full. A full spool will take a little more length than standard whilst accommodating a slightly larger diameter.

Sent using Forum Runner

[uninformed]

No, it's right. The drums are not normally full. A full spool will take a little more length than standard whilst accommodating a slightly larger diameter.

Sent using Forum Runner

Ok if you are referring to what is supplied stock Im not really sure. But usually the limiting factor is the tie bars across the drum. This makes a fixed drum height and I would have thought you will get more wraps of a smaller dia??

[uninformed]

Went through the same process as Tank when trying to choose a winch. I was horrified when I found that none of the usual rope people were selling had a suitable SWL.. Also the cost of rope with a reasonable SWL was more than most winches!

I ended up with 12mm Dynamica. It has a GBS of 16tonne (at the splice) and is UV resistant. BUT the RRP is also $1250 for 50mts!

Also I find it ammusing when people say that hydraulic winches are better than electronic because with the engine off an electronic winch will flatten the battery in a minute.. That is a minute more winching that is possible without an engine with a hydraulic winch.. and it is quite likely that that minute will get you out of the river where at least you can get your gear out and make a cup of tea :angel:

Where did you get your rope from? that price seems outragous, especially when compared to the prices of Amsteel blue from Custom splice and MasterPull's vairious syn ropes, both US companies...

I have read the Vectran is better for UV and abrasion, but doesnt like tight bends, say of that going over a milled fairlead.

I never said Hyd better, just corrected some facts about it Vs elec. I picked what made me warm and fuzzy, justifing the no engine = no winch option by saying that my mech diesel is toast if not running ;)....

then again I could run the 12v/hyd pack that I have as a back up and winch out under elec/hyd power :D

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Ok if you are referring to what is supplied stock Im not really sure. But usually the limiting factor is the tie bars across the drum. This makes a fixed drum height and I would have thought you will get more wraps of a smaller dia??

From new a winch is normally supplied with 100' of 9mm wire, this leaves the drum about 75% full. As you say the limiting factor is normally the tie bars.

If you remove the supplied wire you will normally be able to replace it with 110' of 11mm rope before you foul the tie bars.

The main point being that you don't normally loose rope length for extra diameter.

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[flagg]

Where did you get your rope from? that price seems outragous, especially when compared to the prices of Amsteel blue from Custom splice and MasterPull's vairious syn ropes, both US companies...


yeah it is outragous. I got it for a couple of hundred.. but I have seen it advertised for RRP. :confused::eek:

[Tank]

Frank, If those pulley blocks are 50% too small, what about the drum dia? Most drums on recreational 4x4 winches are approx 75mm dia. My PWB ANCHOR winching blocks are 125mm dia....so it seems there may be some problems from the get go, or is there a difference between it being pulled tightly around the drum compared to around a rotating pulley?

FWIW, my winch blocks are max load pulling of 8 tonne, designed for upto 11mm dia rope and they are greasable.

A 250mm dia winch block is a big bloody thing to carry in ones recovery kit.

regarding wire rope, should winch cable have a core like rope? Is there a specific grade that is best? You mention 7 strand, how many strands in each strand?

newhue, I have heard the same re laying synthetic rope on the winch drum, through can not confirm or deny it as fact/best practice. Something about 3x dia of rope, space between each wind around drum.

Yorkshire_Jon I think you got that back to front mate. You are going to fit more length of smaller dia rope on a drum of given width and height.
Any rope/cable that runs over a sheave/pulley or is used on a winch drum or Tirfor should have a wire strand centre core, the most common construction ropes in 4WD recovery equipment is 19/24 wires/strand and six strands around the outer and an extra 19/24 wires/strand in the middle, this is so the cable does not crush flat, like a 6 strand rope core cable would. General purpose cable has a rope core for flexiblity/lubrication, so only 6 strands with 19 or 24 wires in each strand.
The larger the dia. of a sheave pulley the less stress placed on the wire rope, I have only ever used my winch cable through a snatch block, to stabalise my self while driving out of a hole on a steep sideways slope. A mate ran the cable through the block, not knowing to run it with the lay of the rope and it broke a few wires and put permanent bends in my winch cable. I will post up some links for info Riggers guide and the Guttenberg book, otherwise I am going to wear out my fingers with all this typing.
Rope construction is described as first Wires, (19 or 24) then layed (left or right) into Strands, which in a winch rope are layed (left or Right) around a core strand of 19 or 24 wires, which gives you 7 Strands of 19/24 wires in ea. strand. It would be known as 7Strand, 19/24 IWRC. When you lay wire onto a drum it is coming off that drum in one direction, when passing through a pulley it is changing direction under load both sides, anyway give us a few minutes after I post and I will add the links for more detailed info, regards Frank.
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/3/0/9/8/30983/30983-h/30983-h.htm
PS I don't know how to get the Rigging guide into the post, so if you wish to read it you will have to Google Workcover's Rigging Guide for yourselves.

[Tank]

That's pretty interesting Tank. I know my dyneema rope is crushed in all sorts of flat shapes. Quite often changing from flat horizontal to flat vertical but the rope is still kind of straight, or perhaps in its lay of the rope.

I was told don't wind it on all neat and tidy, for when winching the rope tightens under pull into it's spooled self and makes it very hard to pul out. So I loosely spooling it on with a bit of crossing over, but this chews up space on the drum and the rope crushes on the winch housings for the last 4 or so meters.

oohhh if life was simple, i wouldn't have to worry so much.
I have had no experience with Dyneema ropes on winches, I would contact the manufacturer for the correct way to lay this rope on to a winch drum, I did hear something about laying it on in a cross hatch pattern, but not sure, regards Frank.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I have had no experience with Dyneema ropes on winches, I would contact the manufacturer for the correct way to lay this rope on to a winch drum, I did hear something about laying it on in a cross hatch pattern, but not sure, regards Frank.

It doesn't matter how you spool it on, it will deform whichever way, but it is not detrimental to the rope.

Crows Nesting it on the drum (cross hatch pattern) is sometimes considered better by te competition boys because the rope never gets crushed inbetween adjacent ropes windings and is arguably quicker to spool back on as you dont nee to be careful when winding back in. On the flip side, using the crows nest approach wastes a lot of drum capacity and shortens the amount of rope you can spool on, especially if you are using 11mm instead of 9mm.

Hth
J

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[schuy1]

Cross hatching Dyneema rope onto a winch is the most desireable. The reason being with a conventional spooling the Dyneema being so soft will wedge down into itself under load on the drum and then take all hell to spool out again!! :o Have had to hook onto a tree and reverse the quad to free it and that was on the quadbike after hauling a smallish strainer post!! So thats the main reason for cross hatching.

Cheers Scott

Hmm that swear filter is a funny little beast! :D

[Tikka7mm08]

Rather than start a new thread I have a similar question to the OP. I (we) can get Superwinch LP winches very cheap - the 8500lb and the 10000lb via Amazon. I don't want a discussion on hydraulic vs electric vs pto, nor am I interested to hear the perils of buying a cheap winch vs moderate vs expensive.

I would love to hear from you though if you the think the 8500lb winch (I have a pulley and I'm not worried about its diameter either) would be sufficient for 5 minutes of winching/year for my Defender 90 Puma.

Thank you
Bob

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Rather than start a new thread I have a similar question to the OP. I (we) can get Superwinch LP winches very cheap - the 8500lb and the 10000lb via Amazon. I don't want a discussion on hydraulic vs electric vs pto, nor am I interested to hear the perils of buying a cheap winch vs moderate vs expensive.

I would love to hear from you though if you the think the 8500lb winch (I have a pulley and I'm not worried about its diameter either) would be sufficient for 5 minutes of winching/year for my Defender 90 Puma.

Thank you
Bob

Yes it will.

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[PAT303]

My Tdi has done everything asked with a Warn 8274 HM rated at 8500. Pat

[Tikka7mm08]

Good to know. Hell for what I need incredible price under $400 NZD so tax free.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

My Tdi has done everything asked with a Warn 8274 HM rated at 8500. Pat

In fairness though an 8274 High Mount isn't really a fair comparison to a "cheap" low mount solution!

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[Yorkshire_Jon]

Good to know. Hell for what I need incredible price under $400 NZD so tax free.

Don't forget the 8500lb is a single line pull rating, if it starts to struggle simply use a snatch block and a double line pull, slower but more pulling power.

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[PAT303]

In fairness though an 8274 High Mount isn't really a fair comparison to a "cheap" low mount solution!

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True,money spent on quality is soon forgotten,the only negative is I can't fit one to my TDCi without alot of cutting. Pat

[n plus one]

True,money spent on quality is soon forgotten,the only negative is I can't fit one to my TDCi without alot of cutting. Pat

That's why I went with a Warn XP 9.5 - wanted a high mount but it all looked too hard.

The XP has had too little use to date for me to pass judgement on, though the line speed seems good.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

That's why I went with a Warn XP 9.5 - wanted a high mount but it all looked too hard.

The XP has had too little use to date for me to pass judgement on, though the line speed seems good.

The 9.5XP will keep pulling long after your winch bi*ch has called it a day:) outside of competition use I believe it's the unit to have. For competition use, you can't beat a tweaked 8274, unless of course yours has been out-tweaked by the bloke your competing against!!!

J

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[29dinosaur]

Don't forget the reliable old Tirfor!! Can be used anywhere, front, back, left, right... Portable etc etc... Great when you've dropped your vehicle on its side in a forestry track somewhere and are alone!!!! These nice big electric winches are the first thing to end up a foot under water or buried in a bank that you have just driven into!! :) not only that, the Tirfor sits on the shelf at home when you are back from the trip saving fuel!! I know they are slow and involve effort, but that makes you think twice before driving into that bog!!! Just my 2 cents worth! $400 will buy you a nice one with the correct cable, a strap and pulley block. Good luck with your choice. You can't go wrong with a Warn either way!!

Gumtree advert no 1013592548 Tirfor T- 516. This is what I have and use with a Fender 130..

These ar great and good as calf pullers in the right hands!

[Loubrey]

Working that hard on a recovery faded with the last Camel Trophy...:D

Picture the scene... Northern Zambia during the rainy season of 1999. Had to get from A to B or miss my R&R flight (roster in those days were 12 weeks on 2 weeks off, so I wasn't going to miss that flight!)

Hit a bad patch on the main road between Luwingu and Kasama (187km apart), eventually made it after 13 hours and 37 individual 20m plus winch recoveries with my trusty Warn XD9000i...

Nobody is ever going to sell me on the merits of a Tirfor when there is real winching to be done!!!:D:D:D

Cheers,

Lou

[Red90]

An old 8274, $300 or $400. Throw on new drum bushings and seal, $100. welding cable and lugs, maybe another $50. Homemade mount and you will winch all day, be fast and happy. You guys overthink these things. My 40 year old 8274 pulls all day long and always works while running more than fast enough to not **** you off.

You don't "need" a second battery, but they are nice and useful for many other things. A nice voltage sensing relay with solenoid is $65 or so to give reliable and simple battery separation.

A "good" place to spend money is a quality rope and hook.

[Red90]

An old 8274, $300 or $400. Throw on new drum bushings and seal, $100. welding cable and lugs, maybe another $50. Homemade mount and you will winch all day, be fast and happy. You guys overthink these things. My 40 year old 8274 pulls all day long and always works while running more than fast enough to not **** you off.

You don't "need" a second battery, but they are nice and useful for many other things. A nice voltage sensing relay with solenoid is $65 or so to give reliable and simple battery separation.

A "good" place to spend money is a quality rope and hook.

[joel0407]

An old 8274, $300 or $400. Throw on new drum bushings and seal, $100. welding cable and lugs, maybe another $50. Homemade mount and you will winch all day, be fast and happy. You guys overthink these things. My 40 year old 8274 pulls all day long and always works while running more than fast enough to not **** you off.

You don't "need" a second battery, but they are nice and useful for many other things. A nice voltage sensing relay with solenoid is $65 or so to give reliable and simple battery separation.

A "good" place to spend money is a quality rope and hook.

Thanks for the info, mate. I had been looking at a Smittybilt but this might be a better option.

I had one of these winches on a Toyota 75 series Troopy. Best I every did with it was 2 x snach blocks with 3 other vehicles chained to the back of the troop carier, pulling a truck out of a bog south of Canberra. I used to do Telstra work and we had been boring under a creek. The truck was the water truck.

Happy Days.

[mike_beecham]

Dear All
I ended up going with a RUNVA 11XP (Runva 11XP « Runva Winches | Your premium supplier of Electric and Hydraulic Winches (http://www.runvawinch.com.au/winches/4wd-electric/11xp/))

$649 with Dyneema rope. Lifetime mechanical warranty. 5 year electrical warranty. RUNVA stand behind their product. The supplier (whom l have dealt with for some time) indicated he has sold many units - and not had one claim.


Fitted the ARB bar perfectly. I have heard very good things from both suppliers and users (albiet Jeep owners) about these winches. They are very popular in the States to with the JEEP brigade.

The reality is that l have had to use a winch probably 4 times in 10 years of touring and around the farm. To have $1800 on the bullbar - well, l was just struggling to justify it. In the end - l'll spend the balance of the coin on a set of drawers....

When the wife and l head off around Aus in 18 months, in our new Defender - l may opt for the WARN then......


Mike