TD6 Turbo Replacement

[peter g]

Looks like my turbo is on the way out,https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1312.jpg leaking oil (even though I had previously replaced the crankcase filter with the BMW spin type).
Seems that I can get a Garrett replacement landed here for about 1k. Just wondering if anyone has removed and refitted one, and in particular if it can be done from underneath without removing airbox-rocker cover, exhaust manifold etc etc. Any advice and tips would be greatly appreciated.
Peter

[Camo]

Mine started this about 20,000k's ago. Local LR mechanic said best to get the turbo rebuilt.. be 2.5-3k though:(

Keen on the idea of importing a new one and fit it myself. Everyone says to stay clear of the garrett copy.. Would like to know why.

RANGE ROVER L322 TURBO TD6 3.0 - NEW - LR006110 - £449.99!!!! | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RANGE-ROVER-L322-TURBO-TD6-3-0-NEW-LR006110-449-99-/181094531064?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a2a133ff8#ht_690wt_1165)

Be about $750 landed.. gotta be worth the risk!

Camo

[Laurie]

Peter
Not a fun job to replace :( the link to the following video clip is 1 of 3 ;)

full td6 turbo part1 - YouTube

Are you sure it needs replacing ? might only be a leaking oil seal, line or the vacuum pump . I would have a good look first and then find a turbo specialist and get their opinion before buying an exchange turbo.

Laurie

[peter g]

Thanks for the quick response guys.
Camo, the 1k is for a genuine Garrett, I did see the cheaper ones but thought that for the extra I might save having to replace it again too soon ?
Laurie, I saw those videos, hence the query can it be done from underneath. We are pretty certain it is the seal in the turbo not the supply line, hence the need to remove and recon or replace the turbo. Given the local costs of recon then the new wins.
Peter

[Laurie]

Cam
I thought the standard turbo was a Garrett unit, with the LR Oval marked on it !

Laurie

[Laurie]

Quote from a UK BMW specialist turbo rebuilder.

" The main cause of BMW turbo failure is the condition of the engine oil, a diesel engine will produce a lot of soot like gases which make there way into the oil via the piston rings in the engine. Theses gases are vented back into the engines induction system via the crankcase breathing system (EGR valve also sends gasses etc back into the engine exacerbating the problem ) in theory they never stay in the crankcase long enough to contaminate the oil. The problem is this process occurs constantly when the engine is running and eventually the oil gets contaminated to the point where it can no longer lubricate the turbo, once this happens then the bearings in the turbo start breaking apart which causes the compressor blades to spin off centre, this will cause the turbo to whistle, BMW 330d and 530d suffer from this problem a lot and its always good to repair it once you here the turbo whistle.''

Replacing the crankcase breather filter regularly and blanking the EGR valve will prolong engine and turbo life with the benefit of a few hp and use a little less fuel. A win, win situation !


Laurie

[woko]

Haven't done a turbo on a TD6 (M57) but have done a few on TD4 (M47). With the TD4 the rocker cover doesn't need to be removed, There is 3 grommets in the air filter box under the air filter. remove these and the heat shield under it and you can unbolt the turbo from the exhaust manifold.

[ahebron]

Quote from a UK BMW specialist turbo rebuilder.

" The main cause of BMW turbo failure is the condition of the engine oil, a diesel engine will produce a lot of soot like gases which make there way into the oil via the piston rings in the engine. Theses gases are vented back into the engines induction system via the crankcase breathing system (EGR valve also sends gasses etc back into the engine exacerbating the problem ) in theory they never stay in the crankcase long enough to contaminate the oil. The problem is this process occurs constantly when the engine is running and eventually the oil gets contaminated to the point where it can no longer lubricate the turbo, once this happens then the bearings in the turbo start breaking apart which causes the compressor blades to spin off centre, this will cause the turbo to whistle, BMW 330d and 530d suffer from this problem a lot and its always good to repair it once you here the turbo whistle.''

Replacing the crankcase breather filter regularly and blanking the EGR valve will prolong engine and turbo life with the benefit of a few hp and use a little less fuel. A win, win situation !


Laurie

Hmm I wonder if thats the whistle on overrun that mine makes or a different whistle?:confused:

Adrian

[harlie]

what are we listening for?

Mine whistles under heavy throttle with a trailer, and it has a little overrun noise - other than that can't hear it. It's not changed since I've owned it, I assume it is ok. whats the tell tail for failure?

[Homestar]

what are we listening for?

Mine whistles under heavy throttle with a trailer, and it has a little overrun noise - other than that can't hear it. It's not changed since I've owned it, I assume it is ok. whats the tell tail for failure?

Mine does, and has done since I have owned it, exactly the same thing... Thought it was just a normal turbo noise - should I/we be worried???

[Laurie]

In regards to the mentioned whistling, you will notice the difference :D

All turbo's create a high frequency turbo whistle,
"whistle is the turbo working to build boost" some manufacturers and vehicle makers place a silence ring to reduce this whistle. See below

On a previous vehicle, the whistling got louder and very noticeable. On checking it was found that the inlet manifold was loose and the turbo boost was causing it to leak. Also remember the your wastegate will also cause a whistle especially if dirty or a vacuum line is leaking. You've all heard those rice burners with the "pop off valves" when they change gears, all they are doing is using the excess air pressure that is usually vented by the wastegate to create a louder sound :twisted:
So if you have a noticeable change in your turbo whistle, check all the air flow areas ( including air-filter box ) to make sure there sealed first, then start looking at the turbo

Laurie

[bluegreygreen Rangie]

Our TD6 turbo's don't have a waste gate as such... the maximum boost that can be achieved is controlled by the vnt system

Frequent oil changes are the key to long turbo life :), and well not shutting the engine down immediately when you have just climbed a hill etc



Dave

[Homestar]

I can confirm that a split inter cooler makes a very loud whistling sound...:D. And results in no power, black smoke and high fuel usage...

Ask me how I know...

Gav.

[Homestar]

So I thought I'd revive this old thread as I think I'm about to become an expert in TD6 turbo replacement. Power has been going own steadily for the last couple of weeks and I have a new high pitched turbo whistle that it has never had before. Just checked over all thevpipework and there is no obvious splits or anything and they all seemed to be in good condition when I replaced the intercooler 6 months ago. I pulled the hoses off the intercooler and there is a fair bit of oil in there now - I know they all pass a bit, but this is significant.

So, looks like I have a fun time ahead. Pity as well, as we were about to sell it. Looks like that will be put back a bit now.:(

Funnily enough, the turbo is about the only thing I haven't replaced that could be considered something that wouldn't last the life of the vehicle.

Oh well, back to the tools...

[Homestar]

Well, despite it being theoretically possible to remove from under the vehicle, I opted for the long way - removing everything off the top so I can get better access to it. Not a difficult or time consuming job UNLESS you find a stuck injector.... guess what - I did.

Looks like I'm going for a drive in the morning to get a very small torx socket which I need to pull the injector studs up to free said injector.

Hopefully will have it in my hot little hand tomorrow so then I can find out if a rebuild kit is available for it, and if my mate can install said kit or if I'm going to have to pay a professional to do it.

Anyone know the make/model/part number for this turbo?

[woko]

spray inox or similar around the injector and let soak in. These have a very bad habit of being very stuck and you will not get it out. Don't rely on the stud to get them out
I had a TD4 that had failed injector and could not get 2 of them out. It went very pear shaped, Had to cut rocker cover off and used stiltons on the injector and in the end the injector pulled the tread where the nozzle screws on. I got the nozzle out but had to remove the head and get the nozzle nut machined out.

There is a puller for the job but is very expensive when I looked into it +$600
http://www.klann-online.de/portals/0/pdf/02/248_klann_6e1.pdf

I found this while looking for the puller. If you use let us know if it works using vinegar.
Diesel Injector Removal - Any experience? - Page 2 - The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php't=26790&page=2)

[Homestar]

Yeah, I poured a heap of Penetrene down there before giving up for the night. I haven't even had a chance to use the studs to try and back the injector out yet, as I can't get the bloody things loose.:mad:

All the others are out, and the studs undone with a 10mm deep socket, but I don't have anything to fit the torx on the top of the stud. I think if I can get the studs loose, I should be right. There is slight movement of the injector, but as you know there is nothing to lever off and I don't want to break the cover, so I haven't been trying too hard.

See what tomorrow brings.:)

[Laurie]

Gav
Sometimes that high pitched whistle is the inlet manifold loosing air under turbo pressure, due to a leaky gasket or loose manifold bolts. I had this on a previous vehicle, easy fix after a few heart palpitations.
I'm sure the genuine turbo is a Garrett anyway some many good local repairers available if needed. :D

Laurie

[Homestar]

Thanks, I can check all that once I get the last cover off. It certainly isn't any of the pipes or intercooler. Judging by the amount of oil in the intercooler, I'm guessing the turbo.

[donrover0]

Mine similarly; considerable whistling under acceleration.
Now done 235,000km.
It has minimal slop in compressor end so will leave well enough alone.

Have had Mitsubishi 3.3 turbo in 1985 RR; no whistle .

Had 300TDI in '93RR; slight whistle and that turbo was rebuilt with all new bearings and shaft.
Had TD5 in '94 RR; slight whistle; even after 160,000km.
Lots big trucks whistle so much the girls look around! and they aren't exactly high revving?
I can recall Ray Hall (Turbos) in Cairns telling me years ago that whistling of turbos is not usually a sign of wear, but varies from case to case; that there was no rhyme or reason to it; same make/model/setup, that whistling can vary from car to car.

So real way to determine wear is take off air in hose and feel side play of shaft/ compressor wheel. Plain bearing ones (RR) all have some; ball bearing ones very little/almost discernable.

[justinc]

The balancing of turbine and shaft assemblies are critical, they are done using a method called 'air balancing'. Balancing Machines for Turbocharger Industry (http://www.hofmann-global.com/en/turbocharger-balancing.html)

The noises caused by even minor balancing issues can be significant.

JC

[Homestar]

Well, haven't got much further as I still have an injector stuck fast. Anyone know someone with the puller/slide hammer that is available to remove the stuck ones...:(

[dfendr]

I have got a cheap injector removal tool set that I got from E-bay
You are welcome to try it

[Homestar]

I have got a cheap injector removal tool set that I got from E-bay
You are welcome to try it

Thanks for that - if I can't get it out today, I'll take you up on that offer.:)

[Laurie]

Gav
I use a mix of ATF - Acetone 50:50 as a penetrating oil. Found the info on a US site. Definitely the best and cheapest, just make sure you mix it in glass or metal ;)

Laurie

April 2007 "Machinist's Workshop" magazine comparison test wrote:

They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.


Penetrating oil Average load Price per fluid ounce
None 516 pounds ------
WD-40 238 pounds $0.25
PB Blaster 214 pounds $0.35
Liquid Wrench 127 pounds $0.21
Kano Kroil 106 pounds $0.75
ATF-Acetone mix 53 pounds $0.10 (50/50 mix)

[donrover0]

Turbo is basically Garrett GT22VNT.Have to ensure same number inlet/compressor housing.
LR pn originally LR006110 thru to LR011264
Service exchange pn PMF000050
Lots rebuild kits (bearings, seals, bolts, etc) ex US and UK around $100 ( ebay).
Turbine and shafts about $160.
Relatively cheap to rebuild, BUT really need someone to spin up and balance if any major parts replaced as these things whizz around about 150,000 rpm!

[Homestar]

Thanks for that. Still got to get the bastard out so I can see if I need a whole new one, or if it can be rebuilt. If it is rebuildable I'll see what a local mob will charge to do the whole job, or if they would be happy just to balance the main assembly. I have access to a sub assembly repair centre that does truck turbos, but they don't balance them themselves either, so I'll see if I can find out who does that for them.

[justinc]

Thanks for that. Still got to get the bastard out so I can see if I need a whole new one, or if it can be rebuilt. If it is rebuildable I'll see what a local mob will charge to do the whole job, or if they would be happy just to balance the main assembly. I have access to a sub assembly repair centre that does truck turbos, but they don't balance them themselves either, so I'll see if I can find out who does that for them.

There are places in Vic that do it, one of the guys over here told me he sends his over to be done. Not certain where though.

JC

[donrover0]

generally turbos have to be in a pretty bad way before needing replacing! eg, a bolt going thru/bent blades, or housing scoring from a rotor rubbing on it; worn shaft, etc.
Minor marks in housings generally don't warrant replacement as the clearances are quite wide.
Just be aware that some "experts" may say it needs replacing, when really bearings and seals may fix.
years ago, i struck up friendship with Ray Hall ( Turbos), Cairns and he showed me what I thought basket cases, the he rebuilt at minimal costs. I remember he was surprised at a 300TDI turbo, that I made up from parts of 3; that it ran for couple years, before I sold that RR.

[Homestar]

It is definately rebuildable - it hasn't quite started hitting the sides of the housing yet - I looked at it because it was starting to loose power - and its not the intercooler or hoses. Biggest problem is it is now passing HEAPS of oil - I know all turbos pass some - I have replaced heaps on trucks, but when I took the bottom boost hose off the intercooler I got hit by a wall of oil. Checked the dipstick on the engine - it has lost a lot since I checked it a week ago, and it is not prone to using oil.

All going well, I'll have it on the bench tonight so I can see everything a bit better.

Cheers.

[Laurie]

Gav
With the amount oil in the turbo have you checked the turbo return oil line ? This is a known problem with the TdV8 and has destroyed a turbo or both with it being blocked, they are small diameter pipes. Some horror stories about this on Ffrr
Just a thought !

Laurie

[Homestar]

Haven't checked that yet - still haven't got good enough access to. All hound be known soon with any luck.:)

[Scouse]

It is definately rebuildable - it hasn't quite started hitting the sides of the housing yet - I looked at it because it was starting to loose power - and its not the intercooler or hoses. A fellow Aulroian, Tony (who doesn't frequent the forum much these days) had a sudden power loss with his Td6 a couple of weeks ago.
After removing it & stripping it down, he found the variable vane mechanism had seized due to carbon build up.
The last I saw, he was leaving it to soak to remove the carbon.
Apart from the carbon, the turbo was in good shape.

[donrover0]

Isn't that bottom hose the drain line back to sump?
Shouldn't have been any oil except bit wet!
If that's not draining back (blocked?) then you WILL use lots oil as main system supplying it under pressure at top; gotta have somewhere to go--- thru turbo into engine!
Turbo shaft oil seals pretty rudimentary and if some shaft side play, then these seals can let some oil past into inlet.

[Homestar]

Isn't that bottom hose the drain line back to sump?
Shouldn't have been any oil except bit wet!
If that's not draining back (blocked?) then you WILL use lots oil as main system supplying it under pressure at top; gotta have somewhere to go--- thru turbo into engine!
Turbo shaft oil seals pretty rudimentary and if some shaft side play, then these seals can let some oil past into inlet.

No, the bottom intercooler hose is the one I was talking about. Oil ran out of the intercooler when I removed it. Not far off from having enough to run the engine on.

[woko]

How did you go getting the injectors out?

[Homestar]

Found an adaptor to screw onto the top of the injector - with the solenoid removed. Still took 20 minutes with a 1.5Kg slide hammer to get it out. To say it was stuck and carboned up is an understatement...

A LOT of carbon fell into the cylinder, so I wasn't risking a bent valve or bend piston skirt, so I have also now removed the head. It has to go off for some machining in the injector hole as the seat was burnt and there is no way it would seal if I put it back together like that, so it had to be done...

On the bright side, the cams, followers, cam bearings and bores are in very good condition and have many years left in them yet - still can clearly see cross hash marks in the bores and there is no lip or anything like that.

I have pretty much all the parts now including a brand new Garrett turbo which was surprisingly well priced. I took the old turbo to Roto Master in Somerton - not far from home and they checked it over and found it was stuffed. The biggest thing they say killed it was dust... Yes, dust. They also said they had seen heaps of these failures from L322's and said it was due to the **** design of how the air cleaner seals on the inlet - an issue I have always worried about. I am yet to figure out what to do about this yet, but I don't want to kill another turbo. As the turbo is a VNT design they cannot be successfully rebuilt locally - I checked 4 places and none of them would touch it, but a new turbo was.....

Go on, have a guess...:D

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Prices from old blighty were about £750 so I was worried what one in Aus would cost me...

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Well, a brand new one was just over $1,100 including GST from Roto Master and their service was first class - very friendly, knowledgable and helpful, so they got the gig - they had it the next day for me.:)

Oh, they also said that part number had been superseded 7 times since it was built and the new version has much better boost characteristics and that I should notice the power build slightly earlier than before.:)

So now I just have to clean everything up and stick it all back together.

I'll keep you all posted.

[harlie]

How did you go with the new turbo Gav?

Mine has a lot of oil around the place, and it whistling loud now - only really when cold, settles down when everything warms up but that can't be good:dbcry: Been thinking last couple months it seems a bit sluggish.

[Homestar]

All good, goes great now. Bit of a ***** of a job, but all done. Turbo was cheaper than I thought. I think I posted some detail about it somewhere, but not sure.

[harlie]

nice one - I'm looking forward to it :p

Any chance you have a part number?

I'm just going to check boost pressure - I have the numbers from when the retune went on, if it is down that will make 4 strong symptoms. Time to make some calls. At the price you quoted up the page, I can't see the point in taking it in for a rebuild.

[33chinacars]

Try " LR018264 " for new turbo. Microcat also has a number of other numbers for Re-Manufactured turbo's.

[harlie]

Thanks Gary.

I'm hoping Gav may have the Garret number. I was planning on calling the Roto crew in Melb.

[Homestar]

Yeah, got mine from Roto Master in Melbourne - good service and good price. See below pic for all the numbers. The number on my original turbo had superseded many times and it took them a while to work out what I needed. I believe this is quite a common unit - they should have one in stock, if not, usually next day.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=83041&d=1409467301

[harlie]

OK, spoke to Mr Roto and he's given me a check list to go through before he'll take my money. :D

One question I have - what's the best way to check for crank case pressure? Should there be any - If the filter is ok, should I be able to remove the dipstick while the engine is running?

I have fitted the BWM spin filter part quite a while ago but I was slack, it had started puffing a small amount of blue smoke before I did it - what prompted me off my backside. When I told him that, he commented that the oil could be left over from when it was blocked, and to check pressure again - clean the turbo up and see if it is still leaking (I know basics right?). IMO it is, the oil is too clean to be an old leak. As mentioned up further the noise and lack of boost could be a gasket.

[Homestar]

I did the same as you - had the replacement breather kit, but didn't fit it until I had noticeable crankcase pressure. After fitting the new kit, I've had no issues, but I haven't measured it.

[33chinacars]

Found this on Ebay . Would buy it myself if I had the money.

Land Rover BMW X5 Range Rover Turbo Charger Bnib 3 0 TD6 02 06 IN Melbourne Aust in Toorak, VIC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321508094374'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Gary

[rar110]

Found this on Ebay . Would buy it myself if I had the money.

Land Rover BMW X5 Range Rover Turbo Charger Bnib 3 0 TD6 02 06 IN Melbourne Aust in Toorak, VIC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321508094374'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Gary

Gav's turbo cost $1100 incl GST.

[harlie]

Gary, other thing I've been told by Mr Roto - there are different turbos through the run. He wants the number off the turbo which I'm not sure I can get while it is in place. Weather they were just supersede of each other I'm not sure, Gav reported that the early unit had been superseded 7 times - there's a good chance that's an old version now....

I've confirmed I have no crank case pressure. The car is in the garage up off the floor, tonight I will remove a few covers to get the two air hoses off, check for oil quantity and apparently I should be able to get a finger on the shaft to check for movement - this should give an idea if I need to read a number off the turbo or look for a gasket leak.

rar, want dirty hands?

[rar110]

Sounds good. Let me know a time. I will have to work around Scouts, kids etc.

I have no experience with VNTs but my roller bearing Garrett GT28R had a little shaft movement since new which Im told is taken up by oil.

[harlie]

Advice please.

I’ve had some hoses off and I would like some opinions please.
Air inlet of turbo. I can feel the shaft and there’s a tiny bit of lateral movement up/down/side - zero in/out movement. I can spin the shaft and it feels smooth. Gav, what was yours like?

There is no oil collecting in the intercooler, it has a coating but that’s it. On inspection there’s not as much oil around the place as I thought; it has come through the boot on the air inlet pipe – maybe it’s the mess left from when the crank case filter was blocked. I’m tempted to fit a catch can, plenty of space.

Turbo ok?

So I’m left with a loud whistle and low boost. Inspection of hoses and clamps looks ok. The EGR blanking pipe to manifold is suspect.

Where do I start?

[Homestar]

Ok, mine was shagged - I've replaced dozens of turbos in trucks - at least they are easy to get to. A small amount of lateral movement is fine, and it shouldn't move backwards or forwards at all - sound like yours may be ok. Mine was just touching the side of the housing and also had movement along the shaft. It also has tight spots when spinning it, and the intercooler had a fair bit of oil in it despite being almost new. All classic signs of wear.

Have you checked the vacuum line to the turbo modulator on the drivers side and the vac line from there to the turbo? If you loose vacuum to that, then you have no way of making any real boost. You'll get a sluggish engine and whistling when it tries to come on boost.

[harlie]

.....

Have you checked the vacuum line to the turbo modulator on the drivers side and the vac line from there to the turbo? If you loose vacuum to that, then you have no way of making any real boost. You'll get a sluggish engine and whistling when it tries to come on boost.

Arh no. Looks like some reading to get an understanding of what I'm looking for and how it works.

[Homestar]

With no vacuum applied to a VNT turbo, the exhaust gasses are angled away from the blades of the turbine. If you work the engine hard in this state, it doesn't spin the turbine up and the exhaust gasses pass accross the blades at the wrong angle and out the exhaust pipe. This causes the turbo to whistle rather than produce any boost. The little turbo modulator has a small vacuum reservoir to ensure it has vacuum when needed. A simple check is to pull the vac line off the front of it - the line that runs to the front of the car and accross to the vacuum manifold - while the engine is idling. You should be able to feel the vacuum on the line easily with your finger. If its not sucking, you've found your problem. If it is, check the line down to the turbo - at idle, this won't have any vacuum on it. Easiest check is to pull it off and suck on one end of it with your finger on the other end.

Mine were badly perished and I had the same issue a year ago - just after I changed the intercooler, I lost power and had a bad whistle when trying to make boost. $10 worth of vacuum line later and it was as good as new.

Another issue could be a blown X ring on the intercooler connections, or a split in the intercooler - I've done all that too.. :0

All the best.

[harlie]

Woohoo I have boost!! And a quiet turbo again. Good advice above.

Not really sure where the leak was. I replaced 2 vacuum hoses - reservoir to control valve and control valve to turbo. Both looked very ordinary. I assume the inlet manifold has to come off to get to the vac manifold and the valve for the EGR. This correct to get to the other vac lines?

But the interesting thing was the inlet port on the vacuum reservoir twisted clean off when I twisted the hose – it broke off with zero force. So a repair with a tapered fitting shaped down and some epoxy resin last night – it may have been the culprit.

[Laurie]

That was a cheap turbo job !:D Harlie, I once had similar problems but it turned out to be loose exhaust manifold bolts. A great relief also ! I wasn't looking forward to pricing a new turbo either.
You can now enjoy driving again this weekend.

Laurie

[Homestar]

Nice - I love easy fixes.:)

When I found my vac lines were stuffed, it was like a new lease on life for the engine, but when my turbo actually did crap itself and I fitted the new one, it was like someone had hit the hyper space button...:D