Blue/Grey smoke from 200tdi defender

[OLD]

So I'm hoping that some of you wise people might be able to suggest appropriate areas to start looking at why Nigel has started smoking blue/grey smoke on cold startup.

She's not using oil, not loosing coolant, no obvious signs of gasket issue and only smokes long enough to be embarrassing on cold start-up. Tis morning I let her warm up at idle for 15minutes to 'operating' temp for the smoke to go away only after driving off. :(
She's not lost any power and there isn't anything else out of the ordinary.

Any suggestions on what to look for/at/do would be much appreciated.

Regards

Martin

[jx2mad]

How are the valve stem seals. Wouldn't take much oil to smoke. Jim

[vnx205]

I think grey smoke means it hasn't decided yet who the next Pope should be. :D:D:D

OTOH, it does sound a bit like valve stem seals.

[zulu Delta 534]

As a general rule with diesels, blue smoke is oil; whilst white/grey smoke often signifies a lack of air, the greyish/white colour of the smoke is usually un-burnt vaporised diesel. Get someone else to start it and stand near the exhaust and have a sniff!
Check that any of your air inlet pipes/tubes have not collapsed inside. A lot of air intake pipes are laminated and sometimes the inner lamination can break away.
Regards
Glen

[Sitec]

Hi. I'd be starting with the timing belt, and injectors. If its using no oil then that eliminates most things. Tractor injectors are supposed to be pulled at 1000hrs and tested, not many are, but when we do pull them its surprising how many we find that have a poor spray pattern and or dribble at idle. With an older or higher mileage engine compression will be slightly down, add a cooler morning and the combustion process will be not completed properly. If the timing belt has stretched a little, that will add to the smoke. I'd be surprised if the stem seals are gone, as to make smoke for a while, at least a tea spoon of oil would be needed in each pot each day... It would be using oil, but if they are gone, they can be done with the head in situe... You just have to make sure No 1 piston is at TDC when doing 1 and 4, and at BDC when doing 2 and 3. Just my opinion, Hope this helps. Post a pic of initial cold start up smoke if you like, we can all see.... :)

[OLD]

Well, that's a good start.

Sitec, the timing belt was replaced less then 12 months ago, so I'm discounting that one. The injectors haven't been looked at in the three years she's been mine, so that'll be something to follow up.

Glen, the air inlet pipes are also relatively new (~12 months old). Had them replaced when the timing belt was done. I did check them out this morning and they feel fine.

Vnx205 - very good, I like that one :cool:

Jx2mad - haven't gone that way yet. I'm baffled a bit because the smoke does go away, so my thinking is if the valve stems are dodgy, then wouldn't the smoke be persistent and not go away?

I'll have a go with the camera tomorrow morning and see if I can't post the clip...

Thanks all for your thoughts - lets see what happens....

[Sitec]

No worries, that's what this forum is all about. So many have done it and seen it and tried it, blown it up, lost it dropped it or sold it!!!! If they were not such a pain to get too I'd suggest checking the timing belt marks all line up as they will run happily one tooth out but do smoke when cold... Don't ask me how I know!!;)

[jx2mad]

Sometimes if valve seals are slightly worn then when the engine is stationary a small amount of oil can seep past into combustion chamber. As I said only a very small amount spread over a couple of cylinders would cause smoke on startup but not when warm. I am thinking re the age of the motor with general wear through age. Even slightly worn valve guides could do the same. Jim

[noyakfat]

Sometimes if valve seals are slightly worn then when the engine is stationary a small amount of oil can seep past into combustion chamber. As I said only a very small amount spread over a couple of cylinders would cause smoke on startup but not when warm. I am thinking re the age of the motor with general wear through age. Even slightly worn valve guides could do the same. Jim

I agree with this post as a good place to look. My (recently sold) '97 Nissan Patrol GQ Wagon did the same thing and it was the strong opinion of an Engineer at my work that this was the cause. Just a small amount of seepage which disappeared shortly after start up.

Didn't get to test his theory though, as the vehicle sold before we tried to rectify it. A full pre-inspection check was performed by a mechanic, on behalf of the purchaser, and when I mentioned it to him he said the same thing was likely the cause.

I'm not sure how the other local residents will be able to track my movements now they can't see the copious smoke signals I used to produce upon leaving my driveway :p

Cheers,
Nige

[Nomad9]

Hi Old,
On my 300 tdi when I had a similar issue I found a couple of the heater plugs to be duff, when I fixed the heater plugs I also had the injectors serviced, apparently two weren't sealing properly and allowing a bit of fuel to leak past, more of an issue when cold than hot obviously.
Because I fixed two things and the problem went away can't say for sure which had the biggest impact.

[OLD]

Not sure if this video link works - don't really know what I'm doing with this, but its a clip of Nigel being started up this morning.
The clip is about 2.5mins long, trimmed from 5 but you get to see what I get each time I start her up.

Grey smoke 200tdi defender on Vimeo

I'll be heading back to work soon so I'll have to look at the stems next break. Thanks Jim, I'll do some homework while at work so I can get into it....

Nomad9 - what would I see if any of the heater plugs are suspect?

Sitec, how would the timing progress one tooth out.

[Sitec]

If the timing had progressed, we'd have tested the Big Bang theory by now... :) I was hinting that it could have been fitted 1 tooth out on the cam or pump. Just an option. The older Turbo D 2.5 will run happily with the pump one tooth out but are pigs to start and smoke exactly as yours does but worse until warm. (Good clear vid by the way). If its not using any oil, I'd still be sticking by my injector suggestion. Glow plug failure usually make it smoke white on initial start up with misfire (white smoke=un burnt fuel), but being direct injection the Tdi usually clears instantly. Yours still sounds crisp on start up tho which is good. Nomad9 mentioned replacing injectors.. If the spray pattern is not 100%, or if the internal injector springs become weak, the injector will drip. This means that during combustion, each cylinder will still burn all the correctly atomised diesel, but the 'drip' of fuel will only be partially burnt giving white/light blue smoke. Oil being burnt is usually a thicker white smoke with a different smell. It'll also hang in the air longer. If you go on a decent journey and get the engine to working temp, then return to the vehicle 10 min or so later and restart it does it do the same or is it just one black puff then clear? Cheers!

[OLD]

Sitec, The last time I drove her (Friday) the smoke was as you saw, then not long into the drive, the smoke cleared and I only saw the usual black when under load climbing a hill or leaving an intersection with a bit more power on. After driving for a good while, I parked at shop, did what needed to be done and about fifteen minutes later, came out and looking around to make sure no one was around, started her up only to see the usual black puff and nothing else......

She's up on stands now to figure out what's going on at the left rear brake caliper. 'Surprisingly' a leak has developed so I'd best figure out what's what....:(

Cheers

Martin

[OLD]

So one issue is being rectified (left rear hub seal) and the Tuesday after Easter, Nigel is going in to United to have her injectors and injector pump tested and checked out.
My engine was rebuilt in 2009 and in talking with Steve in Morley, he's confident that the valve stems should be okay.

So, there won't be an update from me until early April - I'll post the outcomes of the test when I get them.

Regards

Martin

[OLD]

So Nigel went in to have the injectors and glow plugs checked, and if there was a prize it'd have to go to Nomad9 for raising the glow plug experience he had. United checked her over and found that the plugs weren't fully functional (actually, their description was much more precise and along the lines of they're shot....). After replacing the four plugs, they put her on the dyno and reported no fault or concerns with the injectors.
Happy days. They did suggest that I start saving coins for the FIP though :(. Not urgent but something to work towards.

Thanks again to you all for your experiences and suggestions - it is really appreciated.[thumbsupbig]

Regards

Martin