cooling issues.....again

[uninformed]

:mad:

Just had my 110 towed home, Im thinking my next work truck should be a tow truck.

Over heating: I headed off for a surf this morning, 5am, 15-20km drive. About 10-15mins into it, and just after pulling over to fill up with fuel, I noticed the gauge sitting on 92c @ 80km/h 4th. This is not normal. Give the time of day, outside temp/humidity, no load on/behind my truck, It would be normal for about 82-85c. So knowing this I watch it closely...sure enough it is rising. Within 1km it has risen to 100c, at which point I imediatly pull over and open the bonnet. Now the reason I didnt shut it down straight away was to keep the system as is and see if there where any pressuised leaks etc. Being still dark, hard to see, but definitely no large amounts of coolant anywhere. I squeeze the main 2 top hoses, and with the engine running at 100c, they are quite soft but hot. :confused:. I shut it down and go back to looking over it. After sitting there head in hands, I figure start it up and continue at a slower pace and see how it goes. If it stays hot ill stop and get a tow. I continue on at 60km/h 4th and it is now maintaining 87c. I get to Currumbin and check over it again, now with some more light. No visable leaks but there has been at some point a spray type leak from maybe the expansion tank? (ill come back to this) Top 2 hoses now firmer. I figure go for a surf and come back and check again. 3hrs later I get back and check again. Coolant level is +10mm above fill point in expansion tank. No leaks anywhere to be seen. I pack up and drive off. About 3km down the road is another servo at which point ill so another check. It got upto temp quicker then normal but I figured some residual temp left in block from earlier. Hoses still firm under engine power. I removed the cap of expansion tank and its alot higher ( I figure because its hot) I give the engine a few revs and watch if there are any bubbles, nope but water looks like its moving, and it starts to rise....and out the top. So I stop and replace cap. Had a quick bite (15mins) and headed off again. Within 1km it is getting hotter, the gauge moving quite obviously from 85-93c, then it really starts to move!!! So I imediatlte pulled over and shut if off.

About a week or so ago, I pulled up at home and once I shut off the engine, heard "gurgling" coming from the expansion tank area (from sitting in the cab)...at the time I thought I hadnt heard that before, but figured I was being paranoid about it (had cooling problems over the years) and just to check coolant level etc. Prior to this, I would say the 110 has been operating within 1-2 degrees of normal, but put that down to humidity.

Back ground: For those of you that dont know, the engine is a 2.8tgv (slightly bigger 300tdi), was completely rebuilt 18000km ago. New radiator core, new T/stat. I have the T/stat out to try and check it. It definitely is moving, but I need to source a thermomiter to check at what point it starts to move.

So what does it sound like could be the problem???

cheers
Serg

[goingbush]

Thats a bummer, you didnt get back to the spray pattern neat expansion tank.


As well as thermostat i'd be also be checking the viscous fan coupling ,
any sign white residue (water vapour) underneath the rocker cover oil cap?

do you have a/c worth turning it on to get the condensor fan moving some air & see if that helps.

[Judo]

:(

Sounds a lot like a head gasket to me... Maybe thermostat issue, but the gurgling and rising coolant is what concerns me. When my TDI head gasket went, it was similar. Stopped and revving the engine I couldn't get bubbles to come into the expansion tank, but under load it was clearly over pressurising the system.

Hopefully I'm wrong (I'm not the most qualified here). Will be watching and hoping I'm wrong Serg!

[PAT303]

Pull the thermostat and boil it in water and see if it opens all the way. Pat

[manic]

water pump, loose belt?

88 - 98C are ok temperatures. I thought the cooling system is supposed to be pressurised some what and that overflow from expansion tank is to be expected if you open it after a hot run?

[uninformed]

Thats a bummer, you didnt get back to the spray pattern neat expansion tank.


As well as thermostat i'd be also be checking the viscous fan coupling ,
any sign white residue (water vapour) underneath the rocker cover oil cap?

do you have a/c worth turning it on to get the condensor fan moving some air & see if that helps.


re expansion tank, I thought it may get mentioned that it could have split. Mine was replaced at some point from the black type to the opaque type. The spray pattern to me, looks like it has possibly come from the cap. Im guessing they are set to release at a set pressure and the water comes out the 4 ribs that you grab to do up/undo it. There is eveidence of leaked coolant on a coulpe non-coolant hoses and such near the expansion tank.

No residue under oil cap. Dipstick shows good clean oil.

How do I check viscous fan?

No thermo fan on my truck even though I do have AC. It got removed to fit my winch Long ago.

[goingbush]

How do I check viscous fan?



with engine hot after a run and with bonnet up & engine running, get someone to turn it off while your watching the fan, the fan should stop instantly when the hub stops, if it runs on the fan clutch is stuffed.

actually, something I need to check myself, should all do from time to time.

[LowRanger]

Serg

Seeing that you already have the thermostat out of the vehicle,just make sure that it is fully opening,regardless of the temperature.
Have a good look at the front and rear of the thermo coupling and make sure that there is no sign of any oil,a sure sighn that the coupling is faulty.
Even when cold,the thermo coupling should show some resistance when you try and spin the fan,the resistance should increase,the hotter the temperature. After a drive and at normal operating temperature,get a large paintbrush 4-6" and use the bristle end against the fan blades and see if you can stop the fan from turning,using a normal amount of force.If you can stop it,then the thermo coupling is faulty.Also at normal operating temperature,check that the top and bottom hoses are both hot.

[uninformed]

Pull the thermostat and boil it in water and see if it opens all the way. Pat

attached pics show my test facility (Rick130 patent pending). Unfortunately looks like the T/stat is opening at 82c as stamped and opens a fair way pretty quickly after that.

How far is fully open?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=57915&d=1363423387

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=57916&d=1363423441

[uninformed]

Pic is a bit hard to see, but Im pretty certain its opening fully(but have never done this or been shown, so could be completely wrong). The "valve" would be moving about 13mm total travel from closed position. I cant see the main spring compressing much more than this??

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=57917&d=1363425217

Wayne, Ill check the fan in the am. I have a feeling it is ok though.

[uninformed]

If it is the head gasket, what potential damage am I doing running the engine up to temp to test these things? Granted, in hind site I should not have continued on this morning, but alas.........

[PAT303]

That looks good to me,just one thing,people always say the coolant bubbling etc means blown head,it doesn't,the cooling system when working properly is under pressure to increase the boiling point,if you pull the cap after the engine has reached operating temp the coolant should bubble and carry on,it means it's working right. Pat

[PAT303]

Serg,I re-read our first post,you heard gurgling??,you've got an air pocket in the heater matrix,bleed the cooling system and I recon you'll be good. Pat

[uninformed]

Serg,I re-read our first post,you heard gurgling??,you've got an air pocket in the heater matrix,bleed the cooling system and I recon you'll be good. Pat

How would it get there if not there a month ago and nothing done to vehicle?

[PAT303]

Don't ask me,I'd just re-bleed it.If you heard gurgling it's got an air pocket. Pat

[uninformed]

Don't ask me,I'd just re-bleed it.If you heard gurgling it's got an air pocket. Pat

I will definitley do that. But could a blown head gasket cause this also. Id hate to cure the symptom and not the cause....

[rick130]

Ha, you found a thermometer !

I'd re-fill in the am as Pat suggested, re-bleed everything and run it up again to check.

Fill it as per the manual but pull the heater outlet hose and make sure it has a constant flow, I've had the heater not bleed properly until I've done this and it had similar symptoms.

Totally forgot about it but Pats post jogged my memory.

[uninformed]

thanks for the help thus far guys. I will definitely do this in the morning.

Im still a bit confused as to how a sealed system gets an air lock from no where. I did a system flush, new main bottom hose and new coolant 10k ago, surely it would have over heated before now?

[Judo]

I agree Serg. Air doesn't just appear... It has to come from somewhere. I would still refill/bleed the system and see how you go. Just cruise around at 60-80km/h for a few minutes to test it. You could do just a few kms at 80km/h then stop and check for air. Until you're more sure, perhaps don't push over 80.

When my head gasket went I still managed to drive up to 60km/h for a few hours to my destination. At low revs the a diesel engine doesn't get real hot (even a TDI). So I find it unlikely you will do damage doing a few kms on a test run if the system is bled before you start.

Let us know how you go...

[uninformed]

I put the thermostat back in. Removed the t/stat housing plug and the radiator plug. Put back in what I drained out of the expansion tank. (I had only syphoned out what I could in the expansion tank prior to removing the t/stat). This was not enough to bring back to correct level, which I expected as I had lost some yesterday from removing the cap, whislt hot, to check tank. I then mixed up some more coolant and topped the expansion tank up until the radiator was full and replaced its plug. Then I started the engine and coolant immediately came out the t/stat housing plug hole, so I inserted plug. I placed a blanket over the grill and let it get some temp into it. watching the coolant inside the expansion tank I could see movement but hard to tell if it was flow or bubbles as the return is in the corner and your not looking directly at it. At about 70c I did the inverted bottle trick (I figured it couldnt hurt). I half filled a 3l container with coolant mix and placed it in the expansion tank. Give the engine some revs I could see movement inside the bottle and every few seconds an air bubble coming up. After a while I figured that was all That I could do and removed the bottle with approx the same amount as I put in. The tank was now full to the top and when given some revs would produce a large single bubble every few seconds. couldnt do this too long as the coolant was now also spilling out. I capped that tank and went for a drive.

rick130 I didnt remove the heater hose because when I grabbed it it was hot and firm (prior to going fot the drive) I know its not a good excuse, but looking at it I didnt want to have loads of coolant going everywhere with this hose off. Again, in the back of my mind Im thinking why would it develop an air lock now after 10k since the cooling system was touched...

The engine now sitting on 80c when I left. Driving around for 5-10mins it was sitting on about 86c. I pulled over and checked everything and all seemed ok and a little coolant had come out the pressure cap which I figured would happed as it had been over filled. I had a quick bite to eat and headed off again (20min stop) leaving the carpark it was 80c again, and very quickly went to 85c, then 90c...im talking within 100m while I was waiting to exit and turn. I pulled into another carpark and coasted down the hill as it was now at 94c. I headed for home but was sitting at lights very :mad: :mad: :mad: and hoping it wouldnt get worse. Then all of a sudden the gauge started to dive quick! :o instant thought was a huge coolant dump, maybe expansion tank had split under pressure....but it stopped dropping at 81c. I had pulled over and opened bonnet, again everything appears fine. All hoses are hot and feel firm.

I drove around some more finding little hills to work it somewhat and it seemed to sit between 85-88c for the next 15mins. I came home and then had to go back out for something I lost, another 10mins driving around and still the same. Home again and all looks ok, with the expansion tank cap leaking a little (again I think it has to balance out the excess coolant). Im now waiting for the engine to cool to check the coolant level.

So if it is a head gasket, what is the method/s to determine it?

My thoughts: I do not think it is fixed. I dont think it could be just a random air lock. I do think the system had air in it and this caused it to loose some coolant and then get a air lock. I have no idea why.

Coolant tastes horrible

I lost my SOG muiltitool/pliers which I need to carry to open my bonnet because of LR fantastic ****ty cable and pull handle.

I am not happy

[manic]

... leaving the carpark it was 80c again, and very quickly went to 85c, then 90c...im talking within 100m while I was waiting to exit and turn. I pulled into another carpark and coasted down the hill as it was now at 94c. I headed for home but was sitting at lights very :mad: :mad: :mad: and hoping it wouldnt get worse. Then all of a sudden the gauge started to dive quick! :o instant thought was a huge coolant dump, maybe expansion tank had split under pressure....but it stopped dropping at 81c. I had pulled over and opened bonnet, again everything appears fine. All hoses are hot and feel firm.

I drove around some more finding little hills to work it somewhat and it seemed to sit between 85-88c for the next 15mins. ...

What is wrong with these temperatures - they seem normal to me for a tdi -on an 88 stat right?

From what you have written it sounds like the temps got up to 94C before the effects of an open thermostat brought the temps back down - then leveled off at 85-88C as per normal?

[rick130]

First up, I feel your pain losing your SOG tool.

I left mine on the tailgate of the 130 once and drove off.....:mad:

Haven't replaced it all these years later either, a Leatherman just doesn't do it for me.

Is your temp gauge electric or mechanical ? (I can't remember)
If electric, check all connections and earths.
Just eliminates a potential 'do your head in' potential cause.

I'd swap the t/stat with a new one, as I mentioned on the phone I've had one stuck close, then stick wide open. :eek: It does your head in.

To double check the head gasket you can do a combustion gas test.
I've done this before, I borrowed the kit from the local NRMA garage, Rick should have one.
They aren't always conclusive either but it's an indicator.

[rick130]

What is wrong with these temperatures - they seem normal to me for a tdi -on an 88 stat right?

From what you have written it sounds like the temps got up to 94C before the effects of an open thermostat brought the temps back down - then leveled off at 85-88C as per normal?


Serg is running an 82* (or 78* ?) 'stat.

[uninformed]

What is wrong with these temperatures - they seem normal to me for a tdi -on an 88 stat right?

From what you have written it sounds like the temps got up to 94C before the effects of an open thermostat brought the temps back down - then leveled off at 85-88C as per normal?

Thanks for taking the time to post. All help is helpful in some way. Im running a 82c cracking thermostat. I have a large hole cut in the side of my left hand gaurd (turbo side) I have a engine, radiator and t/stat that are only 15k or so old. Cooling system completely flushed clean and re filled with Tactalloy XTra Gold coolant and distilled water 10k ago when I replaced the main bottom hose due to a weep it had developed from rubbing againts some metal. Having been bitten by cooling issues in the past Im very anal about watching the gauge and have a very good idea of base temps given outside temp, humidity, speed, load etc....so I know where it runs when in good working order and thats why in my first post I said it wasnt normal.

My temp gauge is a VDO and is pretty good when compared to the stock LR item. Rick im pretty sure its electric. I will check.

Again I tried to make things clear in my words here, maybe I havent. The speed at which the gauge rose yesterday and today, under very little to no load, litrerally within 2 minutes of being parked up for 20 minutes or so shows a completely abnormal condition. Also to which the speed in which the gauge dropped from 94-81 today was about as rapid as turning off the ignition.

Ontop of which I had definitely had coolant come out of the expansion tank prior at some point prior to today. Confirmation of this is the evidence of dried hot coolant on it and hoses near/below the expansion tank, and the fact that when I returned what I syphoned out, I was still atleast 1.5lts short of the required level in the system.

I appreciate the fact everyone wants it to be a simple problem or fix, no one more than me wants that......my gut is telling me otherwise.

I will definitely try a new t/stat.

[Judo]

For the price of a thermostat it's worth checking as I agree it could show some crazy symptoms, but to be honest my gut is telling me the same as you Serg.... Bad news. :( Sorry...

Is a HG something you would do yourself?

[uninformed]

For the price of a thermostat it's worth checking as I agree it could show some crazy symptoms, but to be honest my gut is telling me the same as you Serg.... Bad news. :( Sorry...

Is a HG something you would do yourself?

I may do. Problem is I have to order it from the UK....Given there are 3 thicknesses, I will have to either find out the one the mechanic used or strip it down and then order it :mad: more time off work

Im about to go for another run, to my work place (if I make it) problem is tomorrow ill have my big heavy trailer in tow as well :(

[roverrescue]

Serg,
does the 2.8 still use the ejector valve from rad, tank, thermo.
After my rebuild a blocked ejector caused over heat like yours. Air lock issue at stat housing i suspect?
Didnt even replace, just clened it out with wire.

Also on jc advice, only use a waxstat thermostat.

Steve

[rick130]

I may do. Problem is I have to order it from the UK....Given there are 3 thicknesses, I will have to either find out the one the mechanic used or strip it down and then order it :mad: more time off work

Im about to go for another run, to my work place (if I make it) problem is tomorrow ill have my big heavy trailer in tow as well :(

If the head gasket is marked the same as a Tdi you can tell the thickness as there's an exposed tab at the back RHS of the head with the holes (or lack thereof) in it.



Serg,
does the 2.8 still use the ejector valve from rad, tank, thermo.
After my rebuild a blocked ejector caused over heat like yours. Air lock issue at stat housing i suspect?
Didnt even replace, just clened it out with wire.

Also on jc advice, only use a waxstat thermostat.

Steve

Good point Steve.
Someone else had the same problem and mentioned it in another thread a few weeks back.

[uninformed]

Serg,
does the 2.8 still use the ejector valve from rad, tank, thermo.
After my rebuild a blocked ejector caused over heat like yours. Air lock issue at stat housing i suspect?
Didnt even replace, just clened it out with wire.

Also on jc advice, only use a waxstat thermostat.

Steve

I have no idea :confused: what is the ejector valve?

The reason I went away from waxstat is to get a lower cracking temp. I had the same tridon t/stat in the engine from almost new and just supplied a new one for the rebuild as good practice.

[uninformed]

I just did the 10km trip to work. Truck was about 40c when I left. Got up to and stayed at 82c on the way there. I pulled up and checked everything with engine running. Gave it some revs from inside the engine bay to see if that changed anything. All seemed ok. Got back in to return, not 1km into it the gauge rises fairly quickly to 89c and stayed there....

still not confident.

Once I know what the ejector valve is I will try that next.

Again, if it is the head gasket what damage am I doing??? I really need to make the decision whether I go to work tomorrow. Am I likely to do damage to the head? Could coolant be going into the oil?

The only way I will know if the system is ok is for the coolant level to be correct when cold and not loose any out the cap at temp. Also to have the gage read and behave normally. Something that cant be done in 5mins.

[rick130]

The ejector valve is the round tee piece that joins the two bleed hoses going back to the expansion tank.

If it is the head gasket and it's pressurising the system, you're ok for a short while IMO as long you don't spit all the coolant out and aren't climbing the range or pushing it really hard.

[Judo]

I may do. Problem is I have to order it from the UK....Given there are 3 thicknesses, I will have to either find out the one the mechanic used or strip it down and then order it :mad: more time off work

Im about to go for another run, to my work place (if I make it) problem is tomorrow ill have my big heavy trailer in tow as well :(

I wouldn't be keen on towing as a test drive. :o

As Rick said... might be a tab to check thickness. If you're unsure though, I believe you can just order the thickest one (no holes) and go with that.

[bee utey]

From the top of your thermostat housing should be a 5/16 hose going under the a/c compressor to a round black fitting with 3 hoses on it. THAT thing. If working properly the flow from the thermo housing goes through a restrictor forming a jet pump to pull air bubbles out of the radiator and dump them in the expansion tank. If the jet is blocked bubbles can collect in the top of the engine and rad.

[Judo]

From the top of your thermostat housing should be a 5/16 hose going under the a/c compressor to a round black fitting with 3 hoses on it. THAT thing. If working properly the flow from the thermo housing goes through a restrictor forming a jet pump to pull air bubbles out of the radiator and dump them in the expansion tank. If the jet is blocked bubbles can collect in the top of the engine and rad.
I understand this theory, but I always thought if everything was working as it should, this hose really had no purpose. I.E. After cooling system refilled and a little air ejected or to cater for a pin hole leak... But normally it would be doing nothing.

To put it another way - in this scenario, where are the air bubbles come from?

[uninformed]

Lets see if I have this right. 1 x 8mm hose from thermostat housing, 1 x 8mm hose from the radiator. These meet at this ejector valve and then 1 x 8mm hose returns to the expansion tank???

If this is correct, I do not have this. Just a brass T the the 3 hoses connect on.

Bugger I was hoping....

[uninformed]

........................ or pushing it really hard.

like towing a 1.8t dual axle trailer

[Judo]

Lets see if I have this right. 1 x 8mm hose from thermostat housing, 1 x 8mm hose from the radiator. These meet at this ejector valve and then 1 x 8mm hose returns to the expansion tank???

If this is correct, I do not have this. Just a brass T the the 3 hoses connect on.

Bugger I was hoping....
Correct. There should be flow back into the expansion tank from the thermostat housing via this hose. (Which I think you were describing earlier?)

Edit: looks like this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-DISCOVERY-300TDi-DEFENDER-300TDi-SYSTEM-AIR-BLEED-HOSE-/181094305102?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D6302903600414957087%26pid%3 D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D181094305102% 26#ht_1147wt_994

[redrovertdi]

I used to use "Xtragold" crap, it sets hard in the bypass hose after a while, i had similar problems to you a few years back, ripped the head off hoping to find a blown head gasket and all was good, while it was apart i rang my father who had a 300tdi disco at the time and he mentioned a collague with the same problem-fitted a new head and then cooked it,-his problem and mine[as then found] was a blocked bypass hose, blocked with xtragold that had set hard.
Richard

[uninformed]

Correct. There should be flow back into the expansion tank from the thermostat housing via this hose. (Which I think you were describing earlier?)

Edit: looks like this:

Land Rover DISCOVERY 300TDi or DEFENDER 300TDi - SYSTEM AIR BLEED HOSE | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-DISCOVERY-300TDi-DEFENDER-300TDi-SYSTEM-AIR-BLEED-HOSE-/181094305102?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D6302903600414957087%26pid%3 D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D181094305102% 26#ht_1147wt_994)



Yep, there is a small hose coming from my t/stat housing to the T piece that has a small hose from top of radiator joining it, then one hose going from the T to the expansion tank.

Just a brass T, nothing like the one in the picture.

I think Im going to not go into work and ring my mechanic first up and see what he wants to do considering the rebuild was only 17k ago with all new genuine parts and machined block/head etc

[uninformed]

I used to use "Xtragold" crap, it sets hard in the bypass hose after a while, i had similar problems to you a few years back, ripped the head off hoping to find a blown head gasket and all was good, while it was apart i rang my father who had a 300tdi disco at the time and he mentioned a collague with the same problem-fitted a new head and then cooked it,-his problem and mine[as then found] was a blocked bypass hose, blocked with xtragold that had set hard.
Richard

ok so first thing I will pull this hose and check it before I ring my mechanic.
Funny you call it crap because it has been recommended by more than one here :confused:

[Judo]

Checking the bypass hose and calling your mechanic who rebuilt it sounds like a solid plan. I reckon I'd certainly have some questions for my mechanic if the HG went after 17k of a rebuild!

[rick130]

[snip]
Funny you call it crap because it has been recommended by more than one here :confused:

As do a few rad specialists ?

[redrovertdi]

Im not telling a story i overheard, it was my car on my driveway and the hose was solid with set coolant-xtracoolgold, $19 a bottle from supercheap, now i run proper coolant/concentrate from a 5L bottle that is more than an inhibitor.
Richard

[djam1]

I've been using it for 15 years without any issue maybe it was a poor quality hose?

[Don 130]

Could I suggest getting hold (borrow?) of an infra-red/laser non contact thermometer. When The Temp. on the gauge shows what you believe to be a high reading, jump out and 'shoot' the thermostat housing with the IR thermometer. Instant readout of temp.

Non Contact Laser Infrared Digital IR Thermometer LCD with Back Light 480 Centidegree + Free Shipping-in Temperature Instruments from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Non-Contact-Laser-Infrared-Digital-IR-Thermometer-LCD-with-Back-Light-480-Centidegree-Free-Shipping/460943079.html)

One check will confirm or otherwise your gauge reading as well as the state of your engine.While you're at it you can check the hoses and the top/bottom of the radiator to see if all is at a temperature consistant with what shows at the thermostat housing.
Of course you'll contact that mechanic as well.
Don.

[uninformed]

Don, mechanic has one. We used it to confirm temps when engine first went in. Will check if possible

cheers

[uninformed]

well it is a head gasket, but the cause is the bigger issue :(

See this thread if you have a few hrs to kill. The update and this particular problem starts on this page:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/143827-2012s-biggest-idiot-kills-engine-death-oil-35.html

BTW, all hoses look great inside and no signs of blockage or build up of Tectaloy Xtra Gold.