Disabling the weird Puma revvy thing.

[wally]

I have an MY12 Defender and it's great. One thing annoys me though. It's the way that the revs are held up during gear changes. I know it's supposed to make for smoother gear changes but I just find it weird. And it actually makes smooth gear changes more difficult, especially at low speed. I recall that on my Td5 (now long gone) I was able to disable it by disconnecting a wire. On the Puma there are some wires connected to the clutch master cylinder. If I disconnect those will it make it go away?

[Mr Rover]

Sorry, I can't answer your question, but . . .

I had the same thought when I first got my MY12 Dfer, however I have found that it is alright once you learn to stop fighting it and let it do its thing. It just takes some adjustment time, IMHO.

Now I have the opposite problem - when I get in my Rangie, or a work car, I drive like a complete idiot for a bit while I get used to not having it!

[LoveB]

same.... i know its trying to help but so far its just made me look like a fool. lol slowly getting used to it. but its hard to when you shift at 2000rpms. makes the shift clunky and you can hear it clunk

[wally]

The way I see it, if I want the revs to stay up while I change gears, I can do that myself. I found on the Td5 that once I got rid of it, it was soooo much better to drive. So really, I don't want to have to get used to it. I want to make it go away.

[Summiitt]

I'm taking my new 130 in to get this problem fixed, my last 2010 ute didn't have the problem, and this thing is a pain in the a.. When I'm trying to work slowly in a paddock, it seems that the throttle is too sensitive, likewise in low range, the throttle control is hopeless, it accelerates when I want it to crawl!

[dawsey]

My new puma is the same I thought it was just my sloppy gear changing..and slow foot off the juice pedal.now I know..

[460cixy]

Lots of modern cars do it and its totally crap if you ask me

[wally]

I'm taking my new 130 in to get this problem fixed, my last 2010 ute didn't have the problem, and this thing is a pain in the a.. When I'm trying to work slowly in a paddock, it seems that the throttle is too sensitive, likewise in low range, the throttle control is hopeless, it accelerates when I want it to crawl!

It's reassuring to know it's not just me. Out on the highway you can live with it, but as you say, driving slowly around a paddock is frustratingly difficult. I'll be very interested in how you get on. It's a relief to get back behind the wheel of the Tdi and just change gears normally and smoothly. I never thought that after buying a new Tdci I'd be saying that.

[ashtrans]

I'm taking my new 130 in to get this problem fixed, my last 2010 ute didn't have the problem, and this thing is a pain in the a.. When I'm trying to work slowly in a paddock, it seems that the throttle is too sensitive, likewise in low range, the throttle control is hopeless, it accelerates when I want it to crawl!

If you want to keep the normal high range throttle maps when in low you can just unplug the switch on the transfer case that is telling the ecu that you are in low, this one that goes here :

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/414.jpg

[Summiitt]

Is this the same switch that controls the anti stall thing? I've found that in really really steep country, this actually works well, feet off everything and the thing is like a goat!

[defender_i_hardly_know_er]

I'd love to know how everyone else changes gears. 2nd to 3rd I have to wait before slotting it in at 2000rpm I think. 1st to 2nd I get the occasional clunk. I Feel like a muppet some days...

[LoveB]

If I try and shift normally which the car seems to think is too fast it clunks.

I found that shifting slightly slower helps. Also, it clunks when I depress the clutch pedal all the way. mine seems to bite at the top of the pedal stroke so now I only step on it slightly enough to get it out of gear and into the next. no clunks and smooth shifting. but 1st to 2nd is a bit harder.

But then I shift at 2000rpm anyway. But try pressing the clutch less.

[wally]

All I want is to be able to control the revs with my right foot. It shouldn't be too much to ask.

[LoveB]

the pedal position wherein nothing happens too is quite annoying. its so jerky if youre staying in first gear. its like it jumps to 30% throttle instead of gradual

[wally]

the pedal position wherein nothing happens too is quite annoying. its so jerky if youre staying in first gear. its like it jumps to 30% throttle instead of gradual

Yes. So then to avoid the first gear jerks you change up with a clunk clunk as it revs just when you didn't need it to.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

I would just like to know why they got rid of a $5 accelerator cable.......to use instead $1000 worth of electronics to do the same job..........

It's not just on land rovers.......it's all cars these days.......

[Grappler]

If I just let the 130 run on idle it runs crawls quite smoothly, but if I use the accelerator pedal it often goes into a spasm at low speed. Changing into second sometimes ends up as a kangaroo. The only solution is to release the clutch, back off and try again. This can happen on the hard but is mostly in the rough when you are getting your foot thrown around a bit.

Is it the operator? Seems like from what ive read here we are all crap drivers?:no2:
I had aTD5 Disco2 with FBW throttle and it didnt jerk around
.
I drive a rough track a couple of times a week and my old TDi300 Def does it comfortably in just 2nd gear, the Puma needs first 2nd and 3rd to do the same job. Almost seems like there is a dead spot around 1500

I wonder if this remapping solution would help
Diesel performance tuning and economy remap chip tuning for Landrover Defender Discovery TD5 Puma TDV6 TDV8 (http://bellautoservices.co.uk/)

[BilboBoggles]

RE the jerking at low speed. My 2.4 MY09 used to do this - and it was due to a semi faulty (sticky) EGR valve. Symptoms included a flat spot at around 1500rpm, and a neck snapping kangaroo hop in low range. Finally after a few years the valve died, new valve - all jerkiness gone, was like a new car. Before I traded that POS I was considering on of those no EGR remaps. But final solution was to trade it in on new one. The 2.2 seems to be a lot better in this area, it's a lot smoother.

Apparently - You can remove the throttle hold on gear change by shorting out the clutch pedal switch. I have not done this on the PUMA, and probable won't. But I just did the clutch pedal switch mod on the TD5 and it's made a world of differences to drivability. (The mod is different on the td5, you just disconnect the switch.). No more ECU playing with the throttle during gear change, just nice instant power.

[wally]

RE the jerking at low speed. My 2.4 MY09 used to do this - and it was due to a semi faulty (sticky) EGR valve. Symptoms included a flat spot at around 1500rpm, and a neck snapping kangaroo hop in low range. Finally after a few years the valve died, new valve - all jerkiness gone, was like a new car. Before I traded that POS I was considering on of those no EGR remaps. But final solution was to trade it in on new one. The 2.2 seems to be a lot better in this area, it's a lot smoother.

Apparently - You can remove the throttle hold on gear change by shorting out the clutch pedal switch. I have not done this on the PUMA, and probable won't. But I just did the clutch pedal switch mod on the TD5 and it's made a world of differences to drivability. (The mod is different on the td5, you just disconnect the switch.). No more ECU playing with the throttle during gear change, just nice instant power.

OK, so just pulling the plug on a puma doesn't work?

[Loubrey]

OK, so just pulling the plug on a puma doesn't work?

The man from Ashtrans says it does (about 10 post back on this thread)...

Cheers,

Lou

[Bush65]

The man from Ashtrans says it does (about 10 post back on this thread)...

Cheers,

Lou
I'm afraid your interpretation of what Dave said is somewhat different to mine.

[Loubrey]

I'm afraid your interpretation of what Dave said is somewhat different to mine.

Hi John,

Yes on a second read I realised he was talking about a different switch.

I agree that my interpretation was incorrect...:)

Cheers,

Lou

[Grappler]

Ive just metered the switch on the clutch master on 2012 2.2 puma and its NO (normally open). To override the function of the switch with the clutch released the lead just needs disconnection
Will give it a go and see if it helps

[TimNZ]

Ive just metered the switch on the clutch master on 2012 2.2 puma and its NO (normally open). To override the function of the switch with the clutch released the lead just needs disconnection
Will give it a go and see if it helps

Be careful where you do this, I tried the same on my 2.4 and it made driving very unpredictable.

Cheers,

Tim

[djam1]

Remember if you disconnect the clutch switch your cruise control will not function as expected.
Probably technically rendering it illegal

That is of course if you have a cruise control

[Grappler]

Just got back from a drive to test the clutch switch on Puma 2.2 2012. The disconnection made no difference and could get a kangaroo going easily. With the lead to the clutch switch shorted I couldnt get it to kangaroo. The vehicle responded to the accelerator quickly without jerking.

I dont know how this system works (yet), but by wiring it to mimic the clutch pedal depressed, makes it run much more smoothly at low speeds. I havent tried on the road at speed yet.

[LoveB]

Looks like were getting closer to a solution though... :)

[Samblers]

Am i the only one who has no idea what this thread is about... I mean in terms of, my Puma doesnt do this?

Does not sound like normal (correct) operation to me?

[n plus one]

Am i the only one who has no idea what this thread is about... I mean in terms of, my Puma doesnt do this?

No, no you are not.

PS for those considering chips, etc, I strongly recommend a BAS remap - egr disengaged and a BIG boost in power/torque.

[Grappler]

No, no you are not.

PS for those considering chips, etc, I strongly recommend a BAS remap - egr disengaged and a BIG boost in power/torque.

Perhaps the BAS map upgrade has defeated the jerky throttle conrtol at low revs?
Seems this problem does not occur on some pumas, but from reading here and other forums many do.

[LoveB]

Maybe others dont notice or they just shift quickly enough or at a higher rpm? Dunno. A friend of mine test driving a defender now doesnt know what im on about as well lol

[boolyb]

There is a tech bulletin for this, it involves a software download to the PCM.
Only became an issue on the 2.2 engines.
Makes a big difference when it is fixed.
Hope this helps

[boolyb]

LR now say it is normal operation and have taken down the bulletin,
But downloading the latest software to the PCM fixes it.

[newhue]

Am i the only one who has no idea what this thread is about... I mean in terms of, my Puma doesnt do this?

Does not sound like normal (correct) operation to me?

I am the same, mine does not kangaroo but it's also a 2.4.
The FBW is unresponsive to a degree to help reduce kangarooing over rough terrain. The engine over run when changing gears is a bit hard to understand, but on mine only happens in high range. It exaggerates the effect if I bugger the timing. However it seems just 1/4sec more off the right foot timing before change and you've overcome FBW changing.

[wally]

LR now say it is normal operation and have taken down the bulletin,
But downloading the latest software to the PCM fixes it.

Thanks, but which software? What is the PCM?

[noyakfat]

Am i the only one who has no idea what this thread is about... I mean in terms of, my Puma doesnt do this?


I can only speak from a test drive perspective (this morning)... but it was a long drive in a variety of traffic, highway, low speed, steep hills etc and I didn't notice any problem whatsoever. I did hear a little over-rev once or twice, but certainly nothing to affect the drive.

Cheers,
Nige

[wally]

I can only speak from a test drive perspective (this morning)... but it was a long drive in a variety of traffic, highway, low speed, steep hills etc and I didn't notice any problem whatsoever. I did hear a little over-rev once or twice, but certainly nothing to affect the drive.

Cheers,
Nige

You're welcome to have a drive of mine and see what you think.

[noyakfat]

You're welcome to have a drive of mine and see what you think.

I really am quite curious as to exactly what you guys are experiencing. Obviously it is not a figment of your imagination, as you are not alone in your complaint. Hope I wasn't implying that I don't believe you... if so I apologise as that was not the intention.

I certainly would not say no to another drive of a Defender :) (but yours may be just a little far out of the way to justify the road trip).

[wally]

I really am quite curious as to exactly what you guys are experiencing. Obviously it is not a figment of your imagination, as you are not alone in your complaint. Hope I wasn't implying that I don't believe you... if so I apologise as that was not the intention.

I certainly would not say no to another drive of a Defender :) (but yours may be just a little far out of the way to justify the road trip).

No, I didn't take it that way at all, and the offer is genuine. It interests me that some do it and apparently some don't. If you were to drive mine smoothly through all gears and say at the end of it that you still didn't know what I was on about, then I'd probably stop whinging and go away and work on changing my driving style. But I doubt you would. Likewise I'd be interested in driving another one for which the owner claims there's no problem. Maybe this thing suits some driving styles and not others. It doesn't suit me.

[Lagerfan]

Maybe this thing suits some driving styles and not others. It doesn't suit me.

I'm having the same issue guys. While we're loving our new D90, I feel like I'm 16 again and learning to drive all over. Have embarrassed myself several times :p over our first 5-6 weeks of Deefer ownership.

Changing up through 1-2-3 I've taken to making a conscious effort to remove my foot from anywhere near the accelerator when shifting, that helps but seems wrong and completely counter intuitive to how I've driven for 20+ years.

If this feature can be turned off I'd love to know about it, otherwise I'll just persevere with re-learning to drive, the car is worth it in every other way.

[ATH]

My 2010 doesn't seem to have this revving while changing gear, quite the opposite.
Revs drop off dramaticllay and a devout Defender bloke I know recommends keeping the revs up and changing gear faster but in my experience changing slower helps!
Going up through the gears is the problem not going down.:(
I must say I think it's the worst vehicle I've ever driven for gear changing. What works one day doesn't the next.....or is it me?:mad:
Don't think I'll be keeping it but will probably end up murdered by the Cook for daring to say that.:o
AlanH.

[newhue]

Wally, any chance of some video. Can you use your phone.

Lagerfan, know what you mean. I felt like a real goose when I got mine. Apart from a lot of over revving with gear changes, I also did a lot of driveline clunking, occasional kangaroo hopping and clutch slipping. I found slow gear changes and slow driving generally make for a smooth defender.

It has taken some time, but to me it seems a timing thing. Which is a pain if you have spent many years with different timing.

[LoveB]

I've adjusted my driving and it doesnt really bother me now. Just take your time when shifting but not long enough that the revs drop and then you get the kangaroo again! lol

I'll try and take a video later.

[Lagerfan]

Thanks for the tips guys, am noticing slow and steady wins out for sure when driving "George". Another top tip I found (here on AULRO.com of course) was to treat the gear changes as a deliberate two movement process, i.e gear to neutral, neutral to gear, that seems to really help with the klanks and other general schoolboy error stuff when getting used to our new ride, it could be it just slows you down to the Defender's pace, anyway it works!

But still think Wally is onto something here, changing at low speeds I'm sure we see some revving going on resulting in occasional kangarooing and unnecessary gear changes when at those speeds & revs (controlled by the human foot!) it should be smooth as. Could it be the anti stall thingamajiggy? I do tend to have a light touch with the revs???

[newhue]

I might add to, my old diff, the original one was a bugger to keep quiet. Perhaps 3 or 4 changes out of 10 were quiet, the rest just banged. This seemed to exacerbate the sloppy gear changes in my book, but perhaps vice versa.
I have a different diff now that was set up by a specialist diff shop. Now days I really have to bugger up the change to get a quiet thud out of it. Maybe the accepted back lash and drive line slop that LR say is normal has a bit to do with difficult gear changes.
Honestly, every change is smooth and quiet now.

[wally]

I might add to, my old diff, the original one was a bugger to keep quiet. Perhaps 3 or 4 changes out of 10 were quiet, the rest just banged. This seemed to exacerbate the sloppy gear changes in my book, but perhaps vice versa.
I have a different diff now that was set up by a specialist diff shop. Now days I really have to bugger up the change to get a quiet thud out of it. Maybe the accepted back lash and drive line slop that LR say is normal has a bit to do with difficult gear changes.
Honestly, every change is smooth and quiet now.

Yeah, probably a good point. The backlash does seem to contribute. But I have at least as much backlash in my Tdis and smooth gear changes are easy in them. But then you could argue that after driving them for eighteen years I've had plenty of time to learn how to get it just right.

[chook73]

I might add to, my old diff, the original one was a bugger to keep quiet. Perhaps 3 or 4 changes out of 10 were quiet, the rest just banged. This seemed to exacerbate the sloppy gear changes in my book, but perhaps vice versa.
I have a different diff now that was set up by a specialist diff shop. Now days I really have to bugger up the change to get a quiet thud out of it. Maybe the accepted back lash and drive line slop that LR say is normal has a bit to do with difficult gear changes.
Honestly, every change is smooth and quiet now.

I have to say that having a properly setup drive train by a specialist taking all of the slack and backlash out makes a massive difference to gear changing. I used to notice the slight increase in revs but I am so used to it now it doesn't bother me at all as the disconcerting thing was the sloppy drive train.

[Samblers]

Drivetrain on mine is a little sloppy but quiet, clunk-free gear-changes can be had with a deliberately slower change and also an increase in revs prior to gear engagement

... not possible when off-road!

[LoveB]

Defender2 - View topic - Clutch switch and throttle responce (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic579.html)

any of you tried this???

apparently as grappler has mentioned, shorting the clutch switch wires disables the revvy shifting thing while keeping the anti stall going when at low speeds... is that correct?

[Tikka7mm08]

Thank God I found this thread,... was thinking 3 years behind an auto before my Puma 90 had turned my manual driving ****house. Truck is at a Landy specialist today so I'll ask about the clutch switch shorting trick... but suspect the Tdci's are still foreign to them having just caught up with TD5's.

[LoveB]

let us know how it goes... if it works well ill do the same to mine!!

[Tikka7mm08]

Well I take that back about them probably not knowing. Knew exactly what I was talking about, reckon it might even be a faulty switch and since they have none on they shelf will just loop it for me (short it). Looking forward to seeing there is much difference.

[LoveB]

Sounds good!

I heard some people changed fuses, light bulbs etc which fixed it...


but the looping process is cheaper (probably free!) lol

so yes, let me know how it goes please! that stupid feature makes me drive like a newbie again lol

[LoveB]

Disabled it on james today. Best he's ever felt whilst driving. Now I can shift normally too.

[Tikka7mm08]

Darth Rover is a lot better but I've only driven him to the airport. Great to hear you got the improvement too. Simple fix.

[LoveB]

The only thing annoying me now is that the throttle is sensitive when not pressed all the way. I belivee I read somewhere that in HI range its because the throttle gives you 70% movement. As in when it first bites when you first step on it its already at 30%.

Shifting otherwise is fine. its just driving at low speeds and letting off the throttle that I want to check on. Apparently I think ashtrans posted that theres a plug you pull to get the ECM to think you're in low gear as in low you get 100% movement.


ps tikka, when they looped yours did they pop the plug back in?

[Tikka7mm08]

Mate I'd have to check with the mechanic. Can you send a photo of yours... I don't even know where to look!

[LoveB]

Sure thing. When you open your bonnet, when facing the engine bay its just to the left.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/652.jpg

in that pic you see the round plastic ball to the left. its just further left of that. a little cylinder with a plastic reservoir with a plug either plugged in or not that has 2 wires coming out... that would be it..

Have you driven yours in low speed? I find low rpm in 2nd or 3rd is annoying. lol you can really feel when you let off. its like going from 30% throttle to 0% in an instant which makes driving at low speeds in the city a bit hard I reckon.

[Tikka7mm08]

I think I see where u mean - will look tomorrow when I fly home and post a photo. I noticed the slightest flat spot in first. I want to test low range too on the farm as that seemed to exacerbate the revvy thing.

[LoveB]

Thank you. Ill just be home mostly tomorrow so i might try it plugged and unplugged and see if that makes a difference

[Lagerfan]

Hey LoveB, I know you've gone with the switch shorting method, but what do you think about this (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/160694-clunky-puma-gearbox-3.html#post1895534) post by Wally, worth a try?

Cheers

[LoveB]

I forgot about that post... I suppose it looks like I might have to book james in again in the future! I'll do some research first if he's affected by it

yeah im ca427 so looks like that might be it. I'll get to it in a week or two. ive missed james too much to be sending him back just yet lol

[Lagerfan]

Yeah, I'm going to look into it too, we're a da429, will update here if anything comes of it.

Edit: Found the Tech Bulletin here: http://www.landrovertechinfo.com/topix/content/document//lookup/select?groupId=109&cat=BULLETINS "LTB00448v5 - Hesitation/Flat Spot During Gear Change", can't read it without a subscription though

[c.h.i.e.f]

My 2010 did not have the rev problem on gear change however it was slow at responding to the right foot...my 2013 on the other hand holds the revs when you change gears which really annoys me but I'm not sure if I have missed something in this thread but is there a simple fix for this on the 2.2 ?

[LoveB]

Check the link above. if yours falls under the VIN range updating the PCM gets rid of the lag on the throttle.

The holding of revs you can disable by looping the clutch switch but I found it does have its uses. makes city driving easy. with it disabled it gets jerky as the revs drop instantly

[c.h.i.e.f]

Check the link above. if yours falls under the VIN range updating the PCM gets rid of the lag on the throttle.

The holding of revs you can disable by looping the clutch switch but I found it does have its uses. makes city driving easy. with it disabled it gets jerky as the revs drop instantly

Bridged the clutch sensor switch worked a treat :)

[LoveB]

sounds good :)

[iClick]

Randomly my 2011 130 started to hold revs - I eventually found the culprit. A blown stop light fuse. Car behaves normally when fuse is intact - remove it and it holds the revs when clutch is engaged. Some sort of warning system?!?

[Johnno1969]

I have an MY12 Defender and it's great. One thing annoys me though. It's the way that the revs are held up during gear changes. I know it's supposed to make for smoother gear changes but I just find it weird. And it actually makes smooth gear changes more difficult, especially at low speed. I recall that on my Td5 (now long gone) I was able to disable it by disconnecting a wire. On the Puma there are some wires connected to the clutch master cylinder. If I disconnect those will it make it go away?

What happened to your Td5? Where did it go?

[Mettalique]

I have a brand new 90 which has about 2300 km on it now. I have not noticed the flaring at all, maybe they've updated everything. I'd be happy for anyone to drive mine as a comparison. North side Brisbane

[Defender Mike]

I have a 2012 defender 90 2.2 litre it doesn't do this. My old TD5 disco used to hold revs while changing and was a pain until I took it to get chipped in Adelaide the guys asked me how I drove the thing. Apparently there is a switch on the clutch that when depressed makes the engine revs drop. They put in a new switch and it was so much easier to drive.
Mike

[wally]

What happened to your Td5? Where did it go?

It escaped. Into the mountains.

[davidgate]

Bridged the clutch sensor switch worked a treat :)

Can anyone tell me which switch it is? Is it the one on the front of clutch reservoir?

Dave G:)

[LoveB]

Yes thats the one. I havent put the bridge back on mine since though. After the PCM update I just got used to it. Shifts fine now

[wally]

Yes thats the one. I havent put the bridge back on mine since though. After the PCM update I just got used to it. Shifts fine now

I'm the same. The PCM update helped, but for me it also required a change in driving style. I have no problem with it now.

[davidgate]

I'm the same. The PCM update helped, but for me it also required a change in driving style. I have no problem with it now.
How is the this PCM update achieved - is it a return to dealer process?

Dave G:)

[voltron]

I really dont mind the revy issue, just have to adjust your driving and it's all good once you get used to it.

[LoveB]

How is the this PCM update achieved - is it a return to dealer process?

Dave G:)

Yep. Theres a liston here somewhere for the affected vin numbers.. just book it in and say youd like the pcm update done :)

[Grappler]

I asked for a ECU upgrade, last service, because of surging during gear changes.

The result is, it (2.2 MY12) now gear changes like a "normal" Defender

[Grimace]

Very interesting thread. I will have to mention it to my folks as their MY12 is a turd when it comes to shifting and the accelerator response!