PDA

View Full Version : Starting difficulties



DandT
20th March 2013, 07:59 PM
Hi there,

Politely requesting some advice. I've read many different posts and now a bit confused on the best to proceed with my problem. Basically, my range (1999 bosch 4.0 V8) won't start. Starter motor tries to turn the engine over but just won't get over the line. I did find this handy 20 questions on another site which will hopefully shed some more light on what has and hasn't been done:

1. Were you able to open the doors of your Range Rover with the remote? YES

2. If you opened the drivers door of your Range Rover did the alarm sound? NO

3. When you put the key in the ignition did any warning come up on the dashboard? NO

4. When you turned the ignition key*to position III did the starter motor turn the engine over. Tried to. Sounds healthy, but doesn't catch

5. Is your battery in good condition? YES I believe*What is the voltage before trying to start? Didn't test before trying to start, after several attempts battery reading at 11.83. Have had it on charge this afternoon back up to 12.6, still won't turn over.

6. Have you done any maintenance to the vehicle recently, such as remove/disconnect and reinstall/reconnect the battery?*YES - disconnected battery thursday night for approx half an hour while wiring existing additional lights into high beams. Car started and I drove it home, drove for 2 more days before it stopped starting. Disconnected battery Tuesday evening for 1/2 hour to powercycle BeCM, no change.

7. Any other symptoms, warning lights, things that you have done that we should know about?*No. Car has behaved perfectly up until now. Started using 2nd provided fob when it was discovered that the unlock button worked first go each time (on the first fob we were using it was worked when it hit it in exactly right spot) on Friday. No low battery warning on this fob, was low battery warning appearing on vehicle dash on wednesday/thursday. I synced 2nd fob to car. I have replaced batteries in 1st fob, resynced to car, still no start.

8. How long have you owned the vehicle/how well do you know it? Nearly 3 weeks, have wealth of information on history of car and all work done to it, plus previous owner has been very helpful.

9. Is this the first time that you have had this problem? YES

10. Are your foot well carpets*wet (from rain/ snow/coolant leak)?*NO

11. Do you have 2 sets of keys/remotes? Do they both work? YES - not at the same time

12. Do you have multiple warnings on the dashboard display such as windows not set, sunroof not set? (These can mask other warning messages on the display.) Have done, cleared/set windows etc. Also getting ones which are symptomatic of flattening battery, caused by me cranking battery repeatedly. When cleared no additional messages appear.

13. If the engine will not crank when you turn the ignition to position III have you been experiencing EAS problems? NO. Took a little while to come up from bumps on sunday after washing, but no other issues.

14. When you last drove the vehicle did you you EAS compressor run? YES

15. If starter motor does not operate and turn the engine over and you have had EAS/EAS compressor problems then check Maxi Fuse 2 in the Engine bay fuse box is OK. Is this Maxi Fuse OK? YES/NO.

16. Have you had problems with selecting gears (X/Y selector switch)? Have you cycled through the gear selector and tried to start in both park and Neutral if the engine is not turning over? Had small problem when it wouldn't change into 1st from second unless I slammed the button on Saturday - have discussed with previous owner and he has fixed this in the past. It was an isolated incidence and has not repeated since. Car will not start in either P or N.

17. Have you been wading recently or driving through very deep snow? NO - unless you count about 5cm water wading?

18. Have you checked the connections to the starter solenoid and the starter itself are clean/corrosion free and intact? NO.

19. If the engine does turn over but does not fire do you have sufficient gas in the tank? YES

20. If the engine does turn over but does not fire have you had problems recently with poor fuel/water in fuel/catalytic converters, poor running? NO

Have nanocom evolution - faults that have appeared: PXXXX (what it says) = permanent power supply fault drive cycle A occurred one time signal too low. Fault is not currently present, fault determined as persistent, fault does not cause the MIL lamp activation.

In nanocom motronic/inputs/state switches crank phases 1 and 2 performed, not 3 and 4. However, checking with another RR his only performed 1,2 and 3 and starts so not sure if this is actually indicating a fault with the Crank Sensor. Crank error was also indicated as 0. Performed tooth test (within same area of nanocom) and all seems well there - more than 30 teeth per second, well into 100 teeth per second.
Immobiliser marked as off, resync'd BeCM and ECU anyway (I think it did, it didn't tell me if it actually had or not)
BeCM powercycled
BeCM sleep test performed - goes off, does not come back on until you open door. Performed this test with depleted battery (purely based on fact it sounds tired when I try to crank it) so that may be affecting it.
Have tried to jumpstart using fully charged jump pack. No joy, but makes battery sound happier.
Interestingly, the engine temperature at one point registered as 247 degrees on nanocom (when engine had been off for 24 hours). However, nanocom instructions indicate that no matter what this figure is, it will not interfere with the engine starting. *
Fuel pump primes when key is in III position.

If anyone can shed any light, provide any advice, or tell me another thing to look at, I would appreciate it :)

T

81stubee
20th March 2013, 08:19 PM
Just to clarify, i assume your talking about a BOSCH (99+) P38, 4.0 or 4,6? I only guessed because you mentioned motronic somewhere. Please clarify the car details.. :)

Theres a lot too read in there, someone with some more time might have a few ideas in the morning.

Cheers

DandT
20th March 2013, 08:34 PM
Thanks, have updated thread with car info. Started filling it out at work, emailed to myself, and forgot to add that info :) thanks for letting me know!

Hoges
20th March 2013, 10:37 PM
Check fuses under bonnet, esp #26,28,37,44 these control the coil packs and EMS. #39 is the fuel pump but IIRC.you said this was working...
good luck with it

DT-P38
21st March 2013, 04:28 AM
Not too sure... Find a local LR guru to check it over.

BTW, is that the old Hard Rangie you have there? If so, it may just be testing you. Ask Paul to pop over and give it a good talking too! Then put some "Harden Up" stickers back on it!

Just kidding... Find your local LR guru (suggest specialist, not dealer/stealer) and get them to diagnose cause and quote fix.

Keithy P38
21st March 2013, 07:14 AM
I like answer #11! Haha!

The only thing I can suggest is to check your battery terminals are secure and clean - many a P38 gremlin has appeared over the years due to this.

Cheers
Keithy

DandT
21st March 2013, 07:41 AM
Not too sure... Find a local LR guru to check it over.

BTW, is that the old Hard Rangie you have there? If so, it may just be testing you. Ask Paul to pop over and give it a good talking too! Then put some "Harden Up" stickers back on it!

Just kidding... Find your local LR guru (suggest specialist, not dealer/stealer) and get them to diagnose cause and quote fix.

It is the Hard Rangie, and the stickers are still on it! Thought it might have been bad juju to remove :)

Paul has been great over the phone, but the error message that is coming up has got him stumped. Currently waiting for Blackbox to approve my registration so I can see if I can find that code in there.

I think (anyone in ACT/QBN feel free to correct me) my only specialist would be Canberra Motor Works in Mitchell, and as thats going to involve a tow I would rather give it every possible shot in my driveway before admitting defeat!

ytt105
21st March 2013, 08:46 AM
Do the electrical sticky

Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/28663-sticky-electrical-troubleshooting-updated-2010-a.html)

Add in some extra earth leads.

If this is all good, it sounds like the crank sensor to me. I have one I haven't fitted yet if you need to do a tester.

Regards
Trevor

DandT
21st March 2013, 09:00 AM
Do the electrical sticky

Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/28663-sticky-electrical-troubleshooting-updated-2010-a.html)

Add in some extra earth leads.

If this is all good, it sounds like the crank sensor to me. I have one I haven't fitted yet if you need to do a tester.

Regards
Trevor
Hi Trevor, thanks for linking to that, I overlooked it in my browser but will be looking at that closer during the day.

By the sounds of it, my battery doesn't have enough grunt right now (at 12.6v) so first thing I should do is reconnect it and let it go for a lot longer than I did.

And muchly appreciate the offer of testing the crank sensor, I'll let you know in the next couple of days :)

radste
21st March 2013, 02:14 PM
Hey,number 4 question,
4. When you turned the ignition key*to position III did the starter motor turn the engine over. Tried to. Sounds healthy, but doesn't catch

Does this mean that the starter turns the motor over or not,may be a faulty starter motor not engaging?

Regards Steve

DandT
21st March 2013, 03:02 PM
Hey,number 4 question,
4. When you turned the ignition key*to position III did the starter motor turn the engine over. Tried to. Sounds healthy, but doesn't catch

Does this mean that the starter turns the motor over or not,may be a faulty starter motor not engaging?

Regards Steve

The engine makes the cranking sound, but doesn't actually start.

Collins
21st March 2013, 05:25 PM
I had a similar problem a while back. Rectified by fitting a new crank position sensor.

Hoges
21st March 2013, 05:50 PM
Some thoughts


1. Given the engine is turning over OK and you think you can hear the fuel pump, have you depressed the schrader valve in the end of the fuel rail to confirm that there is pressure getting to the injectors?

2. If it's cranking over but there's no fuel, recheck to ensure the fuel pump is actually working. If it is not working it's either a dud fuel pump (check fuse and relay!) or you may have a synchronisation issue between the BECM and the Eng Mgmt system (EMS) (it's part of the security system).

You need a Faultmate or Nanocom etc to read both ECUs and to rewrite the EMS value (3 digit code) into the relevant field in the BECM memory. If you have either diagnostic tool it's a simpe 3 minute task.

In older vehicles this can happen (x2 for me in 7 yrs) esp if the starting battery has been allowed to deteriorate. :wasntme: A well maintained strong battery is essential for good P38 health!

3. If any any one of the fuses mentioned in my previous post are u/s, the engine will not start. They are numbered according to the diagram under the lid of the fuse box in the engine bay.

4. While a CPS may be the issue, I'd try other options first. The reason being that with the redesign / upgrade the CPS on the Thor engine was a different design and is located in a different part of the engine. They are far more reliable compared to the CPS fitted to GEMS engines.

hope this helps if only to narrow down the problem!

PeterAllen
22nd March 2013, 07:24 AM
I am with Hoges on this and would still check the fuel pump again. You may be lucky and get it going by whacking the fuel tank ( from underneath and near centre) with a decent lump of wood whilst someone cranks the motor. I had similar problem with mine a few months back but the old whack on the tank and it was right to go. ( Trick from an old NRMA road assistance guy) My fuel pump has not repeated the problem now for a number of months and given your car was fine for days after your electrical playing, doubt that has anything to do with it. Best of luck with it but do the easy tests first and make sure you have plenty of battery power

DandT
22nd March 2013, 07:34 AM
thanks everyone for your advice, after having a far more mechanically minded friend come over we have determined that it looks like the fuel pump has given up. All fuses and relays appear to be working fine (swapped relays around and checked fuses) but only got a release of fuel from the valve on 1 attempt and it was only a very small amount, not the gush we were told to expect. PeterAllen, I may try your tip when I get home this afternoon lol :D but for the moment, I will be calling Canberra Motorworks and seeing how much this is going to hurt :o

PeterAllen
22nd March 2013, 08:29 AM
DandT give the tank a few whacks whilst kicking it over and if the fuel pump has any life left in it you will be pleasantly surprised. I have used this on at least a dozen occasions in my 20 odd years of RR addiction. You will still need to replace the fuel pump at some point in time to be safe but this tip works if the pump's not totally knackered. As I stated earlier a mature aged NRMA guy go me going when I first had a fuel pump fault in my RRC many many years ago. ( Needless to say a lump of wood is always carried).

sheerluck
22nd March 2013, 08:32 AM
It worked well in my D1 as well. I carried a rubber mallet in the boot to give it a whack whenever it gave up.

wayneg
22nd March 2013, 11:01 AM
You can only buy the whole sender unit and pump assembly as a "Part" for the Thor these are big $$$$$$$.
I have successfully found an identical pump after a couple of trys and its going strong. If you do fit a generic pump then 101% make sure you use R10 fuel hose, I will say that again.. ONLY USE R10 FUEL HOSE.
The link to the pump I posted is still good and they are only $26 each. I urge anyone with a Thor car to buy one whilst they are still available so cheap

See

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/160342-thor-fuel-pump-renew-fuel-filter-renew-fuel-level-sender-clean.html

Hoges
22nd March 2013, 12:05 PM
An observation: wacking fuel tank with a rubber hammer, smacking alternators with a solid hammer to unclog brushes (another NRMA roadside "trick") .... Neil Armstrong's legacy obviously lives on :eek::angel::D

Hoges
22nd March 2013, 02:37 PM
Having removed the fuel tank, suggest you search these threads for the one on the measurements for cutting an access hole in the floor for future maintenance. It's a lot easier to do if you have removed the tank. Just a friendly word of warning to be extremely careful of the potential for fire when you remove the pump from the tank... a near empty tank plus spark is a lethal combination.... Good luck with it.

wayneg
22nd March 2013, 03:29 PM
Having made the access hole in mine which was no problem with tin snips and 30 mins I can now get the pump assy in and out in literally 5 mins. It the only way to go.
Here is the link to cutout instructions. The Car shown is a Gems not Thor so although in the same position the sender unit is totally different

Fuel Pump Access, Replacement and Rebuild ing (http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/fuelpump4.html)

Hoges
22nd March 2013, 03:54 PM
And another.. this one's a cracker on how / where to cut the carpet and floor, measurements, tool list, plus pics. Instead of bending the flap I'd suggest you mark up and drill holes for a hinge along one side and overlapping tabs on the other side. Then cut the panel flap on all sides. Then you'll be able to simply screw the hinge and tabs into place for a precision fit. In this way the flap won't drop through the floor as it will be held in a level position by the tabs.

Tank Fuel Pump Template P38 - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/tank-fuel-pump-template-p38-109368.html)

wayneg
22nd March 2013, 04:04 PM
And another.. this one's a cracker on how / where to cut the carpet and floor, measurements, tool list, plus pics

Tank Fuel Pump Template P38 - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/tank-fuel-pump-template-p38-109368.html)


Yes, that was the set of instructions I used. Sadly mine was not as neat as his was but the rear seat covers it all afterwards.

DandT
22nd March 2013, 09:56 PM
Oh wow I am so nervous at the idea of cutting a hole in the floor of my car! :) but I have some very good news, whilst I was a little doubtful I thought we'd try tapping on the tank, and un-f**king-believably she cranked over with a massive splutter of blue smoke, idled rough for a couple of minutes, and then settled down and purred her way around Canberra for a couple of hours, starting again 2x in the process without a hitch! I'm so freaking happy :) pump is being ordered from the uk at less than 1/2 cost of sourcing one here, and it will be replaced but the urgency has dipped a bit :) a happy outcome! Thanks PeterAllen and co!

Hoges
22nd March 2013, 10:38 PM
Oh wow I am so nervous at the idea of cutting a hole in the floor of my car! :) etc etc

Think of it as open heart surgery... piece of cake.:eek: Never underestimate the value of "percussive persuasion" :twisted: don't rely on it starting every time with a hammer blow...

DandT
22nd March 2013, 10:51 PM
Think of it as open heart surgery... piece of cake.:eek: Never underestimate the value of "percussive persuasion" :twisted: don't rely on it starting every time with a hammer blow...

Not relying on it at all, as far as I'm concerned I've just bought myself a bit of time to look at alternatives to the 4 digit quote I was given today :)

And yes, :eek: indeed. Think I'll still get a workshop to install, just for my own peace of mind, but if I can save a couple of hundred $ in parts and towing it'll make me much happier :D

PeterAllen
23rd March 2013, 08:05 AM
Glad to hear the rub on the belly worked. Where did you order your fuel pump from as I should get one sooner rather than later as well

DT-P38
23rd March 2013, 06:14 PM
It was testing you after all! Obviously hasn't been bumping and banging around off road enough lately!!!

I might add a "big stick" to my "gentle words" tool kit.

Perhaps scheduling another 4wding trip soon (to keep all well exercised) wouldn't hurt either?

DandT
23rd March 2013, 08:14 PM
It was testing you after all! Obviously hasn't been bumping and banging around off road enough lately!!!

I might add a "big stick" to my "gentle words" tool kit.

Perhaps scheduling another 4wding trip soon (to keep all well exercised) wouldn't hurt either?

Ha, the day before it died it was in Mongo Nat Park, the day before that it was playing around in the Brindies before heading down the dirt road way to Cooma, and the weekend before that it was in Vic High Country :) maybe its asking for a rest!

wayneg
23rd March 2013, 10:20 PM
Ha, the day before it died it was in Mongo Nat Park, the day before that it was playing around in the Brindies before heading down the dirt road way to Cooma, and the weekend before that it was in Vic High Country :) maybe its asking for a rest!

Resting ? definitely not a good idea, The only way to keep a Rangie of any year happy is daily exercise. On or off road will do

Hoges
24th March 2013, 01:05 PM
Ha, the day before it died it was in Mongo Nat Park, the day before that it was playing around in the Brindies before heading down the dirt road way to Cooma, and the weekend before that it was in Vic High Country :) maybe its asking for a rest!

Stop it!!! Left Cbr 25 yrs ago and still miss the place:eek::angel: Some of the happiest times of our life spent wandering the bush in and around the ACT,esp camping/bushwalking in the Snowy Mtns... paradise...and you get 4 distinct seasons in the year!:D

DandT
25th March 2013, 01:24 PM
Stop it!!! Left Cbr 25 yrs ago and still miss the place:eek::angel: Some of the happiest times of our life spent wandering the bush in and around the ACT,esp camping/bushwalking in the Snowy Mtns... paradise...and you get 4 distinct seasons in the year!:D

You definitely do get 4 distinct seasons in the year, not necessary as bad as melbourne but sometimes here you can definitely have 4 seasons in 1 week! Or skip back and forwards across them (late autumn weather at end of summer? Then stinking hot for a couple of days? Then back to 'normal'?) as a QLD expat it drives me kinda crazy sometimes but I do quite like the place lol :) and I love being so close to the snow in winter!

But back to car talk........pump has gone kablooey, approximately 4 hours after I ordered one from UK :wallbash: so she's dead in the driveway until FedEx graces me with their presence. No amount of percussive persuasion from either myself or D was able to encourage her to start. :BigCry:cie la vie I guess....

Haha Hoges I've just seen where you are from! Oh its funny how absence makes the heart grow fonder :)

wayneg
25th March 2013, 09:00 PM
So out of interest how much did you end up paying for the pump plus shipping from the UK?

How many K`s did the original pump get to, mine had its 1st play-up at around 235000k`s

DandT
25th March 2013, 09:11 PM
Pump, spare fanbelt (why not) and shipping was about $360, pretty happy with that. She's got about 185000km, research says they start to go from about 100000 miles, so not far off lol :)

wayneg
25th March 2013, 09:21 PM
If you are keeping the car for a while I would get one of the $26 pumps from e-bay, fit in the old housing and keep it as a spare.

DandT
25th March 2013, 09:24 PM
If you are keeping the car for a while I would get one of the $26 pumps from e-bay, fit in the old housing and keep it as a spare.

Already on the agenda :)

FANTOM P38
25th March 2013, 11:39 PM
Just dropped my tank tonight to replace pump, took about 20 minutes,
very easy to do just set vehicle to offroad height before you start, makes life very easy ( although I do have extra clearance fromm 33's and lift kit w/ GenIII's. Tank was lowered on trolley jack then slid straight out from underneath. Would have had back together except that replacement pump supplied without new olives. Not worth paying Land Rover Labour Rates to do the job, very easy task just a bit dirty!

PaulP38a
26th March 2013, 08:19 PM
Just dropped my tank tonight to replace pump, took about 20 minutes,
very easy to do just set vehicle to offroad height before you start, makes life very easy ( although I do have extra clearance fromm 33's and lift kit w/ GenIII's.

Funnily enough, DandT's P38 sits at least as tall as yours does Martin... I know this for a fact ;)