KM2's going, Advise on A/T LT tyres

[Babs]

Well Guys, I kind of regretted getting the KM2's when I first bought them, as they were noisy, and now after 12,000 klm I have had enough. I find them vibrating as well as I can feel the nobs as I drive, I know most of you are die hard KM2 fans, just not for me.

So I was after some advise on A/T LT tyres. I'm considering BFG AT, Bridgestone Dueler D697 LT, or Cooper ST MAXX.

Particularly interested in feedback on the Dueler D697. Has anyone got these fitted to their Deefer?

Look forward to your feedback :D

[goingbush]

I havent had Duelers on my Defender but my 105 cruiser was shod in them when I bought it in Broome, could not get out of them soon enough, I know others like them . soon as I got back to Melbourne I bought a new set of BFG 238/85R16 AT's and so much better.

And when I bought my 110 a few months later it had the Coopers on it and I thought they were as bad as the Deulers were on Tojo, so shelled another grand for more BFG AT's , in my opinion, (as long as you stick to 235/85r16 ) the BFG AT's best all round touring tyre.

[carlschmid2002]

I am still on the original M/Ts at the moment. Cant speak highly enough of the BFG A/T from my Patrol days. Covered 300000 km and never had a flat. I switched to KM2s and I found the more they wear the noisier and rougher they got.

[Marshall]

I used to have Maxxis bighorns on my 130. I found them to be relatively quiet.
I agree with Carl, the big friendly giants AT are very nice and in all reality will do pretty much all you ask of them.
Pete

[87County]

Well Guys, I kind of regretted getting the KM2's when I first bought them, as they were noisy, and now after 12,000 klm I have had enough. I find them vibrating as well as I can feel the nobs as I drive, I know most of you are die hard KM2 fans, just not for me.

So I was after some advise on A/T LT tyres. I'm considering BFG AT, Bridgestone Dueler D697 LT, or Cooper ST MAXX.

Particularly interested in feedback on the Dueler D697. Has anyone got these fitted to their Deefer?

Look forward to your feedback :D

pm sent

[rick130]

I used to have Maxxis bighorns on my 130. I found them to be relatively quiet.
I agree with Carl, the big friendly giants AT are very nice and in all reality will do pretty much all you ask of them.
Pete

762 Big Horns are much noisier than the old BFG MT's KM's, and the new BFG's are supposedly a lot quieter again. (on my second set of 762's after two sets of KM's)

BFG AT's last very, very well.

Had two sets on SWMBO's Patrol ute and she averaged 100,000km/set out of two sets.
The roads around here are tyre killers too, that was a mix of dirt, rough bitumen and highway.

The wet grip wasn't quite as good as the Cooper ST's that pre-dated them, nor was the performance in mud, but they are quiet and dry grip is fine.

[chook73]

A lot of people are saying good things about the cooper STMaxx and they offer a pretty good warranty on them.

Out of interest what pressures were you running in your KM2's? I don't seem to ever remember feeling the knobs in mine or having them vibrate.

[Yorkie]

the cooper st maxx will probably be still too lumpy as really is an aggressive a/t. have read of a couple of others on her running them with good reviews though.
what about the mickey thompson offerings?, they have a 4 and 5 rib a/t which looks good on paper. :)

[jddisco200tdi]

I know they are not on your list, but I currently have goodyear duratracs on my defender. They are probably noiser than you want but otherwise I find them to be a reasonable quality tyre.
Prior to these I had cooper ST's. If their newer is similar to the old ones I would not recommend them. I had too many casing seperations.

HTH

John D - Defender 110 2.4

[Babs]

A lot of people are saying good things about the cooper STMaxx and they offer a pretty good warranty on them.

Out of interest what pressures were you running in your KM2's? I don't seem to ever remember feeling the knobs in mine or having them vibrate.


Running 40 psi on the Black Top.

[chook73]

Running 40 psi on the Black Top.

I used to run about 30 rear and 28 front cold which equated to 34 and 32 hot. Try that you might just find them a little nicer.

[MLD]

Not speaking against the BFG AT's. However throwing it out there are the Pirelli Scorpians ATR (LT). They have a road orientated tread pattern and according to 4wd Action review a while back they scored top of class in braking & tyre noise and performed admirably in the off-road tests. I give the review weight on the premise that the Pirelli was a dark horse and not a sponsor.

The Yokahama Geolander also scored well in that test review by 4wd Action. Naturally the sponsor brands pipped the geolander in the ranking. If you ignore the summary comments and focus on the test results you don't get angry at the blatant bias.

I am planning on buying an AT tyre to run around on day to day and save my KM2's for play. After reading lots and lots about all the tyres, the BFG and Pirelli were head and shoulders above the others. A close second was the Michelin LTX AT's. I want a tyre that is road orientated but will hold up to punishment in the desert where MT's don't work as well as an AT.

my 2 bob's worth.

MLD

[Iain_B]

I have KM2 for off road and get the same light vibration from them. I prefer them on the dirt than the OEM tyres, they grip better. A few sheets of dynamat, some 1/2" HD foam and some OEM rubber mats and they quieten down a bit :). On dirt roads, they don't make any extra noise at all.

I found the Pirelli Scorpion ATR very good on my D1 - great on the bitumen, good grip in the wet, no punctures as yet, very quiet and pretty good on sand, not so good in mud.

Tyres are the most important thing after brakes on a car. I find it strange how some people think how much mileage you get out of them is the most important, it should be the last thing on the list to consider after grip, performance, comfort, noise etc. Funny how you seldom here people saying :"I got 100,000km out of brake pads, they really didn't work so well after 50,000km especially in the wet and came close to eating the discs, but I wanted take them right to the limit to get the most out of them" :)

[Rick Fischer]

Been running Coopers for years in every desert and nearly all the outback tracks on the continent, mainly LT STs then STCs. Don't make STCs any more, only the STs and the Max. Put the Max on the back with to STCs still on front. In the SVX the only tyre noise I hear now is the STCs. Thinks Coopers may have done some sort of profiling to reduce noise.

However, there is this Cooper BFG thing same same LR Nisota, holden Ford :) you will have to make up your own mind.

Cheers

RF

[disco gazza]

I had muddies on my disco and changed over to Pirelli Scorpians AT roughly 12000k's ago.Been excellent tyre in the dry and wet and I got them at a good price.

cheers

[noyakfat]

Sadly, I can't yet comment on tyre performance on a Defender (cos I don't own one yet)... However, I did have a set of 16x8 steelies shod in BFG A/T's on my 80 series 'cruiser and when I sold that vehicle I transferred the wheels and tyres onto a GQ Nissan Patrol.

During that period I did lots of highway kilometres, gravel roads, sand driving and a bit of heavy mud. This use included several trips to Birdsville, Kangaroo Island, the Cooloola Coast and backwards and forwards along the Bruce, Pacific and Warrego Highways. I found it hard to fault the BFG's. They were long wearing, tough and functional. I only had one puncture (slow deflation) in all that time, and that was in the main street of Mackay when I picked up a stray coach screw through a gap in the tread.

I eventually re-shod the patrol with a set of Cooper ST-Maxx tyres, and I found them to be very quiet on road and very grippy on wet bitumen in particular. I didn't really get to give them much of a test off road, other than a bit of gravel driving (and I sold that vehicle with only about 11,000km on the tyres). However, I would be happy to try the Coopers again on a Defender (depending on comparative prices on other A/T's when I eventually buy mine).

Good luck with your decision,
Cheers
Nige

[Babs]

I've have now put the KM2's for sale, but I'm no closer on a choice for an A/T tyre.

Still looking for more feedback on the D697LT.
The Cooper ST Maxx look good but will I have the same characteristics as the muddies with them, tracking, forever balancing them, noise?

BFG AT's I've had before and am happy with them just thought they are an old pattern very old pattern, thought the likes of the D697LT might be a better option.

I looked into every one else's suggestions the Pirelli, Generals, Maxxis, could not find info on sidewall protection, so I'm assuming they are not a 3ply side, and confused to wether or not they are a LT construction.

The D697LT is a 10ply carcass with a stiff sidewall they don't advertise wether it's 3 ply or not, but they do emphasise on how thick their sidewalls are compared to the competition. They have one of the highest speed and load ratings in the A/T category. So I'm assuming they should perform quite well.

Any added comments are appreciated. Cheers.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Bush65]

Babs, IMHO you've hit the nail on the head re. sidewall construction.

From recent posts I thought I should look at the scorpians but could find nothing about the sidewalls, and there is no way I would chuck $$$ at them without that info.

Likewise with the BFG AT's. AFAIK they haven't kept up with improved sidewall design, and misgivings I've long had about their tread pattern in some conditions stopped me using them in the past. AFAIK the AT was designed before Michelin bought BFG and took over the design of the tyres.

[ugu80]

Don't fall for the sidewall propaganda. Sidewall strength and thickness is not only a function of ply numbers. Most manufacturers keep their carcass manufacturing process an industrial secret. Some are (rightly) proud of their construction and openly advertise it (e.g. Coopers ST Maxx/STT). Ply thickness is measured in denier (As per Coopers above, 2x2000 denier ply and 1x1000 angled denier ply = 5000 denier total). I have read unconfirmed reports that some BFG 3 ply are 3x1000 ply, so, just for example, a 3 x 1000 ply sidewall will be thinner and weaker than a 2 x 2000 ply sidewall (Perhaps thats the case with the Bridgstone Babs mentioned). Don't forget the original Baja Claw, which achieved an enviable reputation for toughness, has a one ply sidewall (which must be very thick and tightly wound). On top of the ply there is simply how thick the outer rubber moulding is, the quality and construction of the materials used, etc.

Heat build up is another factor as to why manufactures stick to 2 ply as movement in the tyre produces less friction (two plies rubbing together instead of three). Also, all denier being the same, three plies are not 33% stronger and more puncture resistant. Probably more like 10%, and that's being generous.

In short, although having a 3 ply sidewall is a good marketing tool, its not the be all and end all. Personally, I think all tyres should have their ply numbers and the denier of each ply displayed.

It will be written on the sidewall, somewhere, the plies of the tyre, but not the denier.

I learnt a bit about tyres when I was involved with tyre choice for my work fleet when the bosses got a bit worried about OH&S liabilities and I had access to and discussions with various tyre company engineers. I also have a tyre fetish.

[Bush65]

I doubt all Coopers use the same plies as suggested. Some are 8 ply rating and some are 10 ply rating, for all I know some may be less than 8 ply rating. Those with the same ply rating probably use the same denier.

Don't assume a 2 ply construction, which has a 10 ply rating has only 2 plies of the same denier as some other 10 ply (or 8 ply) rating tyre with 3 plies.

Most people would/should know the difference between 10 ply rating and the actual numbers of plies (2 or 3). As pointed out it comes down to the denier used in the 2/3 plies.

The real advantage I see in 3 plies is the change in bias angle of the 3rd ply.

The original Baja Claws are cross ply, so it is silly to bring them up in a discussion on radial ply tyres.

[ugu80]

Tyre ply rating has absolutely nothing to do with sidewall plies or the denier of of the construction material but a measure of load carrying rating. It is an anachronism from the days of the early pneumatic tyres when the carcass was made of layers of canvas. The more layers, the greater load the tyre was rated to carry; thus 6, 8, 10, etc ply literally meant layers of canvas, the more canvas the less deformation under load. Modern ply rating of the tyre is the manufacturers equivalence relating the tyre to layers of canvas. Bias ply tyres, in relation to the discussion of sidewall strength, have angled and stronger cords than radial but it shows that multiple side cords, or plies, does not necessarily mean stronger puncture protection; it's only part of the equation. If sidewall strength was the only consideration, we would all be using bias ply tyres.

According to Michelin:

"A radial tyre allows the sidewall and the tread to function as two independent features of the tyre.
A bias tyre consists of multiple plies over-lapping each other. The crown and sidewalls are interdependent. The overlapped plies form a thick layer that is less flexible and more sensitive to overheating.

RADIAL TYRE
Sidewall flex is not transmitted to the tread. The footprint only lengthens. There is little transverse slip. The radial tyre allows the machine to transfer more power to the ground.

BIAS TYRE
All sidewall flex is transmitted to the tread. The footprint deforms and there is an increase in tyre slip.
The tyre does not contact as much ground as a radial tyre, leading to a loss of engine power transmission and greater ground damage.

RADIAL TYRE
Lower fuel consumption.
Less ground compaction and damage.
Greater productivity. More of your machines power is actually used.
Reduction in tyre replacement thanks to the longer service life of radial tyres.
Thanks to the flexibility and strength of the tire, the tire absorbs shocks, impact and bumps. The result is a better ride and better operator comfort.

BIAS TYRE
Due to the stiffness of the tyre, it does not absorb bumps on the ground. All impact and shaking is felt by the driver and machine.

PLY RATING
Before load ranges were adopted, ply ratings and/or the actual number of casing plies were used to identify the relative strength with higher numeric ratings or plies identifying tyres featuring stronger, heavier duty constructions.

Today's load range/ply ratings do not count the actual number of body ply layers used to make up the tyre's internal structure, but indicate an equivalent strength compared to early bias ply tyres."

[Graeme]

...The Yokahama Geolander also scored well in that test review by 4wd Action.... I want a tyre that is road orientated but will hold up to punishment in the desert where MT's don't work as well as an AT.My Geolanders LT245/70-17 have been good although I haven't had the opportunity to test their 3 ply sidewalls on sharp desert sticks and rocks, only fast gravel roads and bits of old farm fencing wire that's lying about everywhere. They've done 60K and look as though they'll see close to 100K. I have a set of Duratracs to try in winter and will see if their better sloppy stuff traction is worth the anticipated extra noise and poorer road manners.

[rick130]

I looked into every one else's suggestions the Pirelli, Generals, Maxxis, could not find info on sidewall protection, so I'm assuming they are not a 3ply side, and confused to wether or not they are a LT construction.



Some Maxxis LT tyres use a three ply sidewall, most are two ply, and FWIW when we've compared the two ply versions to an equivalent BFG the Maxxis sidewall seemed thicker yet were more supple. eg. I need more air pressure in my 255/85 Maxxis two ply sidewall 762's at a particular load vs the older BFG MT KM's I used.

From what I've seen a stake in the bush is no respector of tyre brand, cost or sidewall claims, they all seem to stake the same.

[Babs]

Don't fall for the sidewall propaganda. Sidewall strength and thickness is not only a function of ply numbers. Most manufacturers keep their carcass manufacturing process an industrial secret. Some are (rightly) proud of their construction and openly advertise it (e.g. Coopers ST Maxx/STT). Ply thickness is measured in denier (As per Coopers above, 2x2000 denier ply and 1x1000 angled denier ply = 5000 denier total). I have read unconfirmed reports that some BFG 3 ply are 3x1000 ply, so, just for example, a 3 x 1000 ply sidewall will be thinner and weaker than a 2 x 2000 ply sidewall (Perhaps thats the case with the Bridgstone Babs mentioned). Don't forget the original Baja Claw, which achieved an enviable reputation for toughness, has a one ply sidewall (which must be very thick and tightly wound). On top of the ply there is simply how thick the outer rubber moulding is, the quality and construction of the materials used, etc.

Heat build up is another factor as to why manufactures stick to 2 ply as movement in the tyre produces less friction (two plies rubbing together instead of three). Also, all denier being the same, three plies are not 33% stronger and more puncture resistant. Probably more like 10%, and that's being generous.

In short, although having a 3 ply sidewall is a good marketing tool, its not the be all and end all. Personally, I think all tyres should have their ply numbers and the denier of each ply displayed.

It will be written on the sidewall, somewhere, the plies of the tyre, but not the denier.

I learnt a bit about tyres when I was involved with tyre choice for my work fleet when the bosses got a bit worried about OH&S liabilities and I had access to and discussions with various tyre company engineers. I also have a tyre fetish.

Thank you for that insight, you have confirmed what I have suspected. After researching the D697LT I started doubting the whole 3 ply sidewall hype, with regards to heat build up thickness and wether or not a 10 ply carcass.

Very useful info you have provided there, thanks for that. This is the type of info we don't normally get.

So from what I can gather on the D697LT they have a thick and stiff sidewall which when you let your pressure down won't bag out, it will still flex over rocks etc. just won't bag out or heat up. So they claim. I'm starting to change my whole understanding on tyre set up. Interesting.

Funny, we all get deceived by the marketing on sidewalls, from now on I'm looking at LT construction, speed and load ratings.
The Coopers I notice along with the D697LT have the highest speed and load ratings in a 4wd LT tyre.

But I suppose horses for courses I guess. I've come to realise the muddies obviously don't suit my touring needs.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

I doubt all Coopers use the same plies as suggested. Some are 8 ply rating and some are 10 ply rating, for all I know some may be less than 8 ply rating. Those with the same ply rating probably use the same denier.

Don't assume a 2 ply construction, which has a 10 ply rating has only 2 plies of the same denier as some other 10 ply (or 8 ply) rating tyre with 3 plies.

Most people would/should know the difference between 10 ply rating and the actual numbers of plies (2 or 3). As pointed out it comes down to the denier used in the 2/3 plies.

The real advantage I see in 3 plies is the change in bias angle of the 3rd ply.

The original Baja Claws are cross ply, so it is silly to bring them up in a discussion on radial ply tyres.

Your right not all coopers are a 10 ply you have to choose specific sizes, same goes for the D697LT. Fortunately the standard size for Deefers come in a 10 ply with high speed and load ratings.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Bush65]

Tyre ply rating has absolutely nothing to do with sidewall plies or the denier of of the construction material ...
Rubbish!

[ugu80]

Rubbish!

"PLY RATING
Before load ranges were adopted, ply ratings and/or the actual number of casing plies were used to identify the relative strength with higher numeric ratings or plies identifying tyres featuring stronger, heavier duty constructions.

Today's load range/ply ratings do not count the actual number of body ply layers used to make up the tyre's internal structure, but indicate an equivalent strength compared to early bias ply tyres."

It's a load rating and relates to construction only in what has been done to give the tyre the appropriate strength to gain such rating. It does not denote any particular number, thickness, type or arrangement of the plies in the carcass. Perhaps reading all the posts on the matter would have been helpful.

Also, again if you bothered to read the post properly, there was no suggestion that all Coopers have the same construction, just certain models. Maybe your spectacle prescription needs updating.

[rick130]

The Coopers I notice along with the D697LT have the highest speed and load ratings in a 4wd LT tyre.




Be careful, I think you're drawing a very long bow there, all brands have commercial/LT tyres with high to very high load ratings and you may end up with a hugely impressive load rating tyre that rides like a solid tyre and doesn't flex over any imperfection at all.
Match the tyre to what you are doing.

Speed rating can be leading you astray too, eg. look at the Michelin XZL fitted as stock to a 130.
Possibly one of the highest load rated 7.50-16/235/85-16's yet a relatively low speed rating, yet no one denies they are one tough outback tyre.

Horses for courses.

[edit] As an example I've been running 255/85 tyres for maybe eight or nine years now, two sets of BFG's and now on my second set of Maxxis 762's.
The car is used daily for work (I'm a tradie and do breakdown service) and the load rating of both brands is lower than the original 7.50/16 XZL's (umm aaah, very naughty !)
The 130 mostly tares out at around 3000kg, day in, day out and is driven over a variety of roads from rough farm tracks to highways and I've never experienced a load related issue and only run the tyres around the 40psi mark (maximum load 1380kg @ 65psi)
I only used around 34psi in the BFG's and if doing predominantly gravel/dirt, only 26psi.

If I tared out at around the maximum 3500kg I'd use 235/85's with a higher load rating and obviously more pressure, but I don't, I've only every been near that a couple of times hauling firewood and the current size/load tyres coped OK aqnd are still well below the rated maximum load for those tyres.
A 110's GVM is a more than a couple of hundred kg below a 130. ;)

[ugu80]

Excellent advice Rick. Sounds like you are after an all terrain. I have a friend with a Pajero who does a lot of bitumen and some dirt. He does lots of kms and has had a number of brands, different brand at every replacement. He maintains the best he has had were the Pirelli Scorpion, if its any help (he has never had Coopers). He's been through Yokohama, Maxxis, Pirelli and now Hankook AT's. He rates the Hankook up with the Pirelli on all but road noise.

[justinc]

Some Maxxis LT tyres use a three ply sidewall, most are two ply, and FWIW when we've compared the two ply versions to an equivalent BFG the Maxxis sidewall seemed thicker yet were more supple. eg. I need more air pressure in my 255/85 Maxxis two ply sidewall 762's at a particular load vs the older BFG MT KM's I used.

From what I've seen a stake in the bush is no respector of tyre brand, cost or sidewall claims, they all seem to stake the same.

Best way to reduce this is run lower pressures. I STILL hear from people who go on about 'keep those pressures up in the rocks mate, you'll save your tyres'...:o
M55 (http://www.toyotires.com.au/suv-tyre/m55)

i have these, 12,000km and VERY happy so far. I have also recommended them to numerous customers about to go touring/ travelling, who are also VERY happy with their puncture restistance and wear/ load rating, too. I have deflated mine for rocks and sand as low as 20psi, and they do bag out reasonably well IMO. I currently run them at 36 f and 38 r, upping to 45 r when towing.

JC

[Graeme]

From what I've seen a stake in the bush is no respector of tyre brand, cost or sidewall claims, they all seem to stake the same.I tend to agree for tyres of LT construction although there are some that seem to be reported more than others to have problems.

A broken horizontal dead root at the base of a dune went straight through the sidewall of a LT GY Silent Armor at 18 psi but at least with 2 plugs the tyre held air. This didn't adversely impact my opinion the tyres.

[Bush65]

ugu80, I know perfectly well what ply rating means.

Denier has a significant influence on the strength of the structural material (plies) used for the tyre carcase.

So how could the tyre manufacturers increase ply rating (a load rating) without increasing the overall denier weight (assuming same material e.g. polyester for the plies?

IMHO they can't, but you claim ply rating has absolutely nothing to do with sidewall plies or denier.

[ugu80]

:wallbash:.......

[Bush65]

:wallbash:.......
Get your facts right and stop posting BS

Baja Claws are cross ply, not single ply

The plies don't rub together

Load rating has everything to do with the tyre construction

Just to correct some of your rubbish

[ugu80]

I strongly urge you to write to Michelin and point out their errors as nearly all my rubbish is just a cut and paste from their website, here is their Australian office: Michelin Australia Pty Ltd
51-57 Fennell Street
Port Melbourne VIC 3207

[patclan]

Well Guys, I kind of regretted getting the KM2's when I first bought them, as they were noisy, and now after 12,000 klm I have had enough. I find them vibrating as well as I can feel the nobs as I drive, I know most of you are die hard KM2 fans, just not for me.

So I was after some advise on A/T LT tyres. I'm considering BFG AT, Bridgestone Dueler D697 LT, or Cooper ST MAXX.

Particularly interested in feedback on the Dueler D697. Has anyone got these fitted to their Deefer?

Look forward to your feedback :D

I just swapped my 255/85/16 KM2 on ZU rims out for the original general grabbers on boosts, I am not sure what was causing the problems, if it was the KM2, the larger size tyre or the ZU rims but the handling is much better now, the steering feels tighter and the cornering is better. I know what you mean about driving on the nobbles, and the noise was getting to me.

I have decided I am not a fan of muddies, but I will keep them for touring as they did well on the last trip, but for day to day I will replace the GG for something in the AT bracket also, I do not want to spend $350 to $400 a tyre so might try the Hankook I can get them fitted for $200 each, it took me an hour to change out the 4 wheels this morning so not a big deal to put the KM2 back on, although I may switch the rims over, I guess that would help determine if the wheel it self had anything to do with the crap handling.

I had a wheel alignment done at the tyre place when I got the KM2's fitted, after reading all the posts on wheel alignment I think I will get it double checked for the toe out rather than in, I just need to find a decent place on the Gold Coast.

Cheers
Pat

[Bush65]

I strongly urge you to write to Michelin and point out their errors as nearly all my rubbish is just a cut and paste from their website, here is their Australian office: Michelin Australia Pty Ltd
51-57 Fennell Street
Port Melbourne VIC 3207
I don't need to write to Michelin.

I have no argument with what you cut and pasted. It was the incorrect stuff that obviously came from yourself that I pointed out.

You never once substantiated any of that (because you can't), but only proceeded to obfuscate with heaps more irreverent cut and paste, but with more errors of your own making.

The thing that got me going in your 1st post was your implying Coopers were better than BFG because they have 2x2000 denier ply and 1x1000 angled denier ply, while BFG are 3x1000 ply.

You don't seem to understand that the denier changes with load rating and tyre size. You never said what size and load rating applied to either of the Cooper or BFG tyre you were referring to. Without that clarification your information is not worth the space it appears in. You need to compare apples to apples, pardon the pun.

I also held off in objecting to your using the preface "Don't fall for the sidewall propaganda." as though you have the answers, but you didn't and didn't substantiate it.Instead it read like it was out of a Coopers add.

I have had Coopers STT and Mickey Thompson MTZ (both owned by Coopers) in 10 ply rating 165/75 R16. I wouldn't have either again because of cracking.

[PAT303]

Buy Michellin A/T's and don't look back,forget the hype about strong sidewalls and puncture proof crap,it's just that,crap.Tyres are the most important safety device on your vehicle,spend the money and buy the best. Pat

[justinc]

Buy Michellin A/T's and don't look back,forget the hype about strong sidewalls and puncture proof crap,it's just that,crap.Tyres are the most important safety device on your vehicle,spend the money and buy the best. Pat

Pat, best michelin AT i ever saw was the LTX, seen a set get 120k and no flats or serious damage at all, and yes they did get used offroad/ touring.
iirc they aren't available anymore:(

jc

[PAT303]

Thats better than my MT/R's that had wire hanging out of them at 40k.The LTX is still listed on the michellin site. Pat

[Graeme]

I had what I remember as Michelin LT-XC on my RRC which were a strong tyre with good open pattern. However exposed threads constantly cut into the tubes forever causing flat tyres and Michelin wouldn't honour warranty because I had fitted tubes, which were mandatory with the RRC alloys. I repaired such a puncture at Tibooburra then another at Olive Downs, having done a short loop out to Merty Merty. Many times I melted the threads with a soldering iron but more always appeared so replaced the tyres well before they were worn out. Michelin aren't always beyond reproach.

[Loubrey]

I just swapped my 255/85/16 KM2 on ZU rims out for the original general grabbers on boosts, I am not sure what was causing the problems, if it was the KM2, the larger size tyre or the ZU rims but the handling is much better now, the steering feels tighter and the cornering is better. I know what you mean about driving on the nobbles, and the noise was getting to me.

I have decided I am not a fan of muddies, but I will keep them for touring as they did well on the last trip, but for day to day I will replace the GG for something in the AT bracket also, I do not want to spend $350 to $400 a tyre so might try the Hankook I can get them fitted for $200 each, it took me an hour to change out the 4 wheels this morning so not a big deal to put the KM2 back on, although I may switch the rims over, I guess that would help determine if the wheel it self had anything to do with the crap handling.

I had a wheel alignment done at the tyre place when I got the KM2's fitted, after reading all the posts on wheel alignment I think I will get it double checked for the toe out rather than in, I just need to find a decent place on the Gold Coast.

Cheers
Pat

Hi Pat,

I have the same arrangement as you BFG KM2's on ZU's for play/travel (bit smaller tyres with 265/75/16) and the General Grabbers on the Boosts. I always marvel at how quiet the Grabbers are.

Even with the ZU's offset I can't say I've noticed a change in the turning circle. I"ve had ZU's before with AT's and they are fine for the ride, must be the 255/85/16's?

Cheers,

Lou

[Defendozer]

Well Guys, I kind of regretted getting the KM2's when I first bought them, as they were noisy, and now after 12,000 klm I have had enough. I find them vibrating as well as I can feel the nobs as I drive, I know most of you are die hard KM2 fans, just not for me.

So I was after some advise on A/T LT tyres. I'm considering BFG AT, Bridgestone Dueler D697 LT, or Cooper ST MAXX.

Particularly interested in feedback on the Dueler D697. Has anyone got these fitted to their Deefer?

Look forward to your feedback :DI bought a set of 235/85r16 Stmaxx for my 110 wagon about a month ago, couldn't be happier so far:)

They are very quiet on the black stuff and have handled really nicely on all road surfaces I have had them on. No serious Off Roading yet though so can't comment on that but don't at all see why they shouldn't perform well going from what I have experienced with them so far.

The main reason I like them is that they are a great combination 50/50 tire, I don't do a lot of Off Roading so for me I get the benefits of an AT with the more aggressive look of a MT:D

I'll post up photos soon if you like. Didn't happen without them right?!:wasntme:

[patclan]

Hi Pat,

I have the same arrangement as you BFG KM2's on ZU's for play/travel (bit smaller tyres with 265/75/16) and the General Grabbers on the Boosts. I always marvel at how quiet the Grabbers are.

Even with the ZU's offset I can't say I've noticed a change in the turning circle. I"ve had ZU's before with AT's and they are fine for the ride, must be the 255/85/16's?

Cheers,

Lou

Hey Lou, I have never noticed any difference in the turning circle either with the Zu's on, but I keep meaning to adjust the stop.

Another job for another day!!

[Dougal]

Buy Michellin A/T's and don't look back,forget the hype about strong sidewalls and puncture proof crap,it's just that,crap.Tyres are the most important safety device on your vehicle,spend the money and buy the best. Pat

Got any specifics Pat?

The Michelin XPC were excellent all-round tyres, but Michelin stopped making them. No sense competing against your other brand I guess.

The AT they had last time I looked had very rounded shoulders which normally translate into poor tracking on gravel roads and easy slides on grass.

[Disco Muppet]

I've got Scorpions on the D2 and they're quite good.
Excellent on road behaviour for sure, do well in sand as I ran them at road Psi on the beach and had no dramas.
I'm pretty slack and don't drop my tyre pressures when I hit the tracks although that's changed, and they've held up fantastically. I'd estimate I'll probably get upwards of 70k kms on them before I need to replace them.
One thing though, mud tyres they aint!
This was after about 100m, they kept going and they weren't too bad but it was a bit Tokyo Drift for a while, needed a careful and steady application of right foot to keep it moving forwards.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/1255.jpg
Cheers
Muppet

[Babs]

Ok, beginning of the week I put a set of Cooper ST MAXX on.

I was originally leaning toward the D 697lt but after ringing Bridgestone and asking about sidewall protection and finding out they are only a 2 ply 3000 denier sidewall, and the fact that the only thing good they had to say about it was "it does the job" I decided against them.

After ringing Coopers and having a long conversation on tyre types, etc. and getting the run down on how tuff there sidewalls are - 3 ply 2 x 2000 denier and 1 x 1000 denier on an angle 5000 denier in total, I was convinced this is a tough tyre. My size 265/75/16 is definitely a LT 10 ply carcass.

So anyways, the difference was immediate the vehicle was a lot smoother, steering improved dramatically and they are quieter. I did not realise just how uncomfortable the KM2's were until now. What a difference. I think people just get used to the muddies and don't really realise how bad they are say compared to a good AT. Anyways I'm happy, we will just have to see how they perform offroad. I'll keep you posted on that.

A big thanks to everyone's suggestions, comments, and it got a bit interesting there a few replies back, anyways guys All Good. We are all here to learn, at least I am.

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[Chops]

G'day Babs, can you post a pic so I can see how these look on the car/rim.
We've just done a trip through desert type terrain with a lot of gravel roads and I found the GG's to be quite noisy.
At 32f and 34r, they performed well and haven't sustained any damage that I can see.
I have major issues with these tyres on the bitumen though as my duel cab (2011) doesn't have ABS, so in the wet I consider them to be lethal.
As on the D1 I ran Coopers for a number of years,, and very happy with them,, I was already swaying that way. Wanting mostly a touring type tyre, but also want to get up the High Country too. I guess I want the best of both worlds, but surely one can get reasonably close. :)

[Babs]

Here you go Chops.

58692



58694



58695

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[weeds]

Here you go Chops.

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Babs......one problem, the white lettering is on the wrong side

[Babs]

Babs......one problem, the white lettering is on the wrong side

What are you talking about, it's retro, besides it matches my flair jeans and long sideburns (or is that too far back) come forward 10 years. :)

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[Chops]

They look good.
Looks like they'd cover most situations well.
Thanks for the pics Babs.

[Babs]

They look good.
Looks like they'd cover most situations well.
Thanks for the pics Babs.

Your welcome.

And I hope thy do most jobs. I'll keep you posted on that.

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