Another TDV6 Crankshaft Bearing Failure

[Antellope]

Hi All

Had the unfortunate experience of getting stuck 500km from home in our D3 on the weekend.
The crankshaft is jumping around like its on steroids. Oil comming past front seal.
After some hunting it seems this issue is becomming more common.
I have learn't the 2.7 now has the bearings from the 3.0. Hmmm
Done 190k.

Anyone recommend best place to get new engine. I hear thats probably more cost effective than repair.

Comments welcome. Oh, it happenned on my birthday.

[TerryO]

Yes it would seam that it is way more cost effective to get a new long engine than repair a stuffed one.

When I had mine done under warranty well over a year ago the workshop admitted they could buy a new long engine for around the $8,000 mark, from memory. The retail price was way more than that by quite a few thousand dollars.

All I would say is make sure they replace all the hoses, belts and pulleys etc at the same time as it is way cheaper to get it all done in one job. I'd also get the radiator properly cleaned not just flushed.

Make sure they mark which cylinder the injectors come out of and put them back in the same cylinders when they put it back together as well.

Good luck with it.

[Rich84]

Sorry to hear about this, antelope, hell of a shame on what is a fairly robust engine that there are a few apparently silly design flaws.

Almost makes me think about selling mine.

What kind of service history does your car have? What year? How many km?

I'm trying to work out whether it is a year based thing or if it's happening across the board. So far it seems like earlier cars are most affected. Ie 2005-2006

[baldivistribe]

I know of a 3 litre doing something similar which needed a new engine jobby couple of weeks prior to christmas. Is a 2009 D4 with approx 80000 km under it's belt.
Cheers
Steve

[Tank]

Hi All

Had the unfortunate experience of getting stuck 500km from home in our D3 on the weekend.
The crankshaft is jumping around like its on steroids. Oil comming past front seal.
After some hunting it seems this issue is becomming more common.
I have learn't the 2.7 now has the bearings from the 3.0. Hmmm
Done 190k.

Anyone recommend best place to get new engine. I hear thats probably more cost effective than repair.

Comments welcome. Oh, it happenned on my birthday.
I was wondering how you know the crankshaft has gone west, has the engine been dismantled.
The description you give "The crankshaft is jumping around like its on steroids. Oil comming past front seal."
Sounds like the crank damper is stuffed and allowing oil to escape from timing cover, in 40+ years of mechanicing I've never seen a "crankshaft" jumping around.
You need to get it inspected and see if the pulley/damper on the front of the crankshaft hasn't come loose, it would be an expensive exercise to buy a replacement engine when it might be that the crank/damper bolt needs tightening, Regards Frank.

[Disco4SE]

I know of a 3 litre doing something similar which needed a new engine jobby couple of weeks prior to christmas. Is a 2009 D4 with approx 80000 km under it's belt
There was another 3.0Lt did the same here in Vic. Same year.
It had done 160K. The owner told me it was from constantly filling with bad fuel from the same servo. Similar reports had since come back to him.....same problem, same servo, different makes of vehicle????

Cheers, Craig

[~Rich~]

Yes and quite a few in South Africa that have been put down to poor quality diesel. Yet some engines have racked up very high kms without this occuring. Could be onto something re poor quality diesel.

[Rich84]

Yes and quite a few in South Africa that have been put down to poor quality diesel. Yet some engines have racked up very high kms without this occuring. Could be onto something re poor quality diesel.

Poor quality diesel and also the fact that in South Africa the official servicing schedule at least at that time was every 25,000km for oil and filter changes. Way too infrequent. I've also seen that at least a few of these engines had oil analysis done which showed that the oil was in fact 20w50 where LR states specifically that there is to be no deviation from the recommended 5w30 fully synthetic with bearing failure being the possible consequence.

Add to that the fact that the some domestically manufactured oil in S Africa apparently is not very high quality - I remember seeing an analysis showing brand new oil that had a lower TBN than European oil that had been used for 10K miles. I remember reading this was possibly re-refined oil that had been repackaged.

This is why I'm particularly keen on hearing about Antellope's car's service history, being an Australian vehicle with our better quality oils and fuels - what oil, what viscosity, service interval, driving habits, etc.

[wrinklearthur]

Doesn't the engine go into limp mode when the oil pressure drops and the oil light comes on?

Check what Tank said about the damper coming loose if the engine was still running but noisy.
.

[101RRS]

How does poor fuel make the main bearing spin - I don't see how this is linked to the issue of crank failures.

Garry

[Tank]

Better still Gary, how does a crankshaft "jump up and down", for that to happen would require that there were no bearing shells in any of the main bearing saddles.
I think the OP'er needs to get some honest expert inspection going and not drive the vehicle at all till properly diagnosed, regards Frank.

[scarry]

How does poor fuel make the main bearing spin - I don't see how this is linked to the issue of crank failures.

Garry

Poor fuel destroys the engine oil quicker,has something to do with sulphur content of the fuel.

Service intervals are shorter in many countries with poor quality fuel.

[Tank]

Poor fuel destroys the engine oil quicker,has something to do with sulphur content of the fuel.

Service intervals are shorter in many countries with poor quality fuel.
If there is enough fuel getting into the oil to destroy main bearings, then I would say the main problem would be how the fuel is getting into the oil in the first place, Regards Frank.

[101RRS]

Poor fuel destroys the engine oil quicker,has something to do with sulphur content of the fuel.

Service intervals are shorter in many countries with poor quality fuel.

Ok but I fail to see how fuel quality impacts on the oil.

Cheers

Garry

[~Rich~]

As you know diesels run and ignite fuel from the heat caused by compression. Diesel fuel contains sulfur.
Because of such high compression a certain amount of raw fuel escapes past the piston rings into the crankcase. This is known as piston ring blow-by. Sulfur turns special diesel motor oil black very quickly. All diesels do this.
New less powerful diesel fuels contain less sulfur than it did in the past.

It's extremely important to always use special diesel multi-viscosity motor oil. It has additives to hold fuel blow-by in suspension.

So it can be a case of poor quality diesel as well as the combination of cheaper engine oil and infrequent oil changes.

[101RRS]

Lets no get side tracked with assumptions - there is no evidence that the 2.7 TDV6 crankshaft issues is caused by fuel issues. These is plenty of evidence that it is a "physical" issue related to bearing shells and their quality - whether it is systemic or just a batch quality control issue is not sure.

If anyone has evidence of a fuel related issue than post it up but lets not get distracted by assumptions or guessing.

[newlandyowner]

Has your fuel consumption gone up? Smell your dipstick and see if it smells like diesel, or drain your oil and have a look. But if its under some sort of warranty then dont touch it.



I'd say its a bearing shell material problem.

[Barryp]

Wouldn't gummy or higher viscosity oil cause more drag on the bearing shells and if gummy enough (due to infrequent oil changes) could cause the shell to move in its housing, blocking the oil hole?
Many oils marked diesel on the shelves are actually much higher viscosity (20-40) than that recommended for our modern LR diesels (5W-30).
Just a thought.
Barryp

[TerryO]

When my old 98k 2.7 was removed from the D3 after top end issues caused by the mechanic, they decided to rebuild it so they could sell it.

I remember them telling me when they pulled it apart the front bearing caps were only just over finger tight and chances are they would have come loose within a short period of time.

From memory it is the front bearings that seem to be the ones that fail on 2.7's, but is it the bearing or the cap coming loose and the bearing then being destroyed? I would hazard a guess not to many engines get pulled apart and checked before they go bang like mine did.

[101RRS]

Just published on the UK sites from LR.

Quote:

Reference SSM71816

Models

Discovery 4 / L319
Discovery 3 / L319
Range Rover / L405
Range Rover Sport / L494
Range Rover Sport / L320

Title Crankshaft/Crankshaft Bearing Concerns - TDv6 Diesel Engine
Category Engine
Last modified 06-May-2014 00:00:00
Symptom 499000 Basic Engine

Content
Issue:
Crankshaft/crankshaft bearing failure - TDv6 Diesel Engine.
Cause:
Low incidence of crankshaft failure are being encountered, caused mainly by incorrect location of the main bearing shells during assembly, or through rotation of the shells during normal use. A new procedure has been implemented to ensure:
- more rapid resolution of customer concerns, and
- greater visibility of failure modes in order to improve repair process and parts delivery.

Action:
For any suspected crankshaft/bearing failure, please contact your local Dealer Technical Supportor FRED team for details of the enhanced customer handling procedure.
The list below summarises typical symptoms of crankshaft/bearing failure, but please contact your DTS/FRED team if in any doubt as they will be pleased to offer assistance:
· Crankshaft is seized, engine cannot be turned either via starter motor or crankshaft pulley bolt.
· Oil sump or engine cylinder block is holed, with oil leakage and/or metallic debris found on engine under-tray.
· Engine makes a loud ‘rumbling/knocking’ sound when running which worsens as the engine is placed under load. The engine oil pressure warning light may flash or be continuously illuminated, especially at low engine speeds.

UnQuote

So it looks like that LR Uk has recognised this issue - I guess LR Aust will still deny liability.

Garry

[101RRS]

I assume this needs correcting.

Yep :o - mind was thinking Landrover Aust while fingers were typing about Landrover UK.

Garry

[zilch]

So it looks like that LR Uk has recognised this issue - I guess LR Aust will still deny liability.

Garry

:lol2:

[trebor]

The problems with Land Rover's 2.7 and 3.0 litre diesel engines continue. I have a (March plated) 2015 3.0 litre Discovery with 25,000kms on the clock and the crankshaft has come away from its housing. Problem began with a small vibration at 110kph followed by a rapid loss of power and complete system shut down. Fortunately, I was able to pull over quickly but the engine had ceased turning before I came to a complete stop. The event from beginning to end lasted approximately 15 seconds. This occurred near Yulara, 1700kms from home at the beginning of a trip! It is worth noting that the vehicle had already had two oil engine oil changes beforehand: one at 12K and the second at 23K.
This is my second Discovery having bought a 2012 TDV6 2.7 in June of that year It became apparent after 30 months that for the previous year the vehicle had a significant quantity of diesel in the engine, despite two oil changes in that time. Injection seals were deemed the problem and replaced under warranty by LRA at 60,000kms.
I now sadly have lost faith in the reliability of these vehicles and will be changing my allegiance. A sad time. :wacko:

[Ean Austral]

Have L/R done the right thing by you ??

Cheers Ean

[rar110]

That's a shocker Rob.

[Garfield]

Rob, that's really bad news. I have a 2016 D4 and have only done some 17,000km ( and hope to do a lot more ). I'm having oil and filter changes every 10 to 12k . I'll be very interested in how LR handle this for you. I hope they look after you well.

[ozscott]

LR would replace or rebuild motor but I can understand you wanting to move away from the brand after those experiences! Cheers

[Tombie]

I'm guessing Dealer services for the oil changes?

[trebor]

Yes, both oil changes were carried out by the dealer. The dealer needs to send photographic evidence of the damage to head office (interstate) who will then authorise (or not) the new engine. The process is still in train with no word yet from h.o. I've been told it will all take weeks. Today is already day 15 since the failure!

[Ocean]

Hi Guys,


New to the forum.


How common is this problem with the D4 V6 3L TD?


Currently looking at 1 that has 110k on it.

[LandyAndy]

I don't recall any on here.But sometimes my brain is like a sieve.
100000km should only just be run in.My bro just bought one with over 220km on it.
Welcome aboard,we are a friendly bunch,dont be scarred to ask any questions.
By the way,we all take Tombie to be our god.Hail the great Tombie:):):):)
Andrew

[Bytemrk]

.
By the way,we all take Tombie to be our god.Hail the great Tombie:):):):)
Andrew


no no no Andy... He's just a very naughty boy.....;)

[ozscott]

Landy Andy please go to a piece of movie genius here https://youtu.be/5f4SyMB2JDw and specifically 20 second in...

Cheers

[Graeme]

How common is this problem with the D4 V6 3L TD?

Currently looking at 1 that has 110k on it.The problem seems reasonably rare and pretty much confined to low km engines.

[PerthDisco]

The problem seems reasonably rare and pretty much confined to low km engines.



Will make high km versions more valuable! [emoji1]

[Tombie]

The most common occurrence of this issue seems to be Cheap fuel and long service intervals... (for the most part).

In South Africa where there are different Diesel qualities available there appears to be the most failures.

I can not quantify this, just an observation.

[Ocean]

I don't recall any on here.But sometimes my brain is like a sieve.
100000km should only just be run in.My bro just bought one with over 220km on it.
Welcome aboard,we are a friendly bunch,dont be scarred to ask any questions.
By the way,we all take Tombie to be our god.Hail the great Tombie:):):):)
Andrew



Thanks LandyAndy,


Yep 110k think the same way.


Thought the same way with the 145k NP Pajero we bought also but seems we have one of the rare donk lemons. Second hand engine installed with 160k on the clock that now has 200k so far so good.


Hope to have better luck with the Disco 4 by retiring the Pajero from Towing, use only for daily drive and 4WDing. Use the Disco for towing the just under 2T van and beach driving (without the van)


First job on the Disco a brake controller, seen some posts for that I will follow, likely take the one out of the Camry. Latter a CB and second battery (does not look like much room in the engine bay) Need to research here for that. Apart from that will keep her stock until the Pajero needs to be fully retired.


Anyway looking forward to picking the Disco up tomorrow and finding lots of useful tips and info here.

[LandyAndy]

Landy Andy please go to a piece of movie genius here https://youtu.be/5f4SyMB2JDw and specifically 20 second in...

Cheers

I was actually taking the **** out of The BFG;););););););)
Andrew

[Tombie]

I don't recall any on here.But sometimes my brain is like a sieve.

100000km should only just be run in.My bro just bought one with over 220km on it.

Welcome aboard,we are a friendly bunch,dont be scarred to ask any questions.

By the way,we all take Tombie to be our god.Hail the great Tombie:):):):)

Andrew


Did you say Tombie for Mod?

[emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

You misspelled it (damn Autocorrect)

[rar110]

The problems with Land Rover's 2.7 and 3.0 litre diesel engines continue. I have a (March plated) 2015 3.0 litre Discovery with 25,000kms on the clock and the crankshaft has come away from its housing. Problem began with a small vibration at 110kph followed by a rapid loss of power and complete system shut down. Fortunately, I was able to pull over quickly but the engine had ceased turning before I came to a complete stop. The event from beginning to end lasted approximately 15 seconds. This occurred near Yulara, 1700kms from home at the beginning of a trip! It is worth noting that the vehicle had already had two oil engine oil changes beforehand: one at 12K and the second at 23K.
This is my second Discovery having bought a 2012 TDV6 2.7 in June of that year It became apparent after 30 months that for the previous year the vehicle had a significant quantity of diesel in the engine, despite two oil changes in that time. Injection seals were deemed the problem and replaced under warranty by LRA at 60,000kms.
I now sadly have lost faith in the reliability of these vehicles and will be changing my allegiance. A sad time. :wacko:



Any update Rob?

[ozscott]

I was just wondering last night about this thread because a fellow posted on LR owners Facebook page that his 2.7 had gone the way of the Dodo with the crank wanting to part ways with the rest of the engine. It's a shame because otherwise the 2.7 is such a gem. Cheers

[Garfield]

The problems with Land Rover's 2.7 and 3.0 litre diesel engines continue. I have a (March plated) 2015 3.0 litre Discovery with 25,000kms on the clock and the crankshaft has come away from its housing. Problem began with a small vibration at 110kph followed by a rapid loss of power and complete system shut down. Fortunately, I was able to pull over quickly but the engine had ceased turning before I came to a complete stop. The event from beginning to end lasted approximately 15 seconds. This occurred near Yulara, 1700kms from home at the beginning of a trip! It is worth noting that the vehicle had already had two oil engine oil changes beforehand: one at 12K and the second at 23K.
This is my second Discovery having bought a 2012 TDV6 2.7 in June of that year It became apparent after 30 months that for the previous year the vehicle had a significant quantity of diesel in the engine, despite two oil changes in that time. Injection seals were deemed the problem and replaced under warranty by LRA at 60,000kms.
I now sadly have lost faith in the reliability of these vehicles and will be changing my allegiance. A sad time. :wacko:


Any up date Trebor ? Has LR fixed the engine for you ? Any major hassle ?

[trebor]

Yes, LR did the right thing. A new short engine was transplanted and fully covered under warranty. The job took LR five weeks from the time the vehicle arrived in Adelaide from the Northern Territory. Have now covered 4,000km since getting the vehicle back including a return trip from Adelaide to Batemans Bay last week coming home via Araluen, Cooma, Kiandra and Khancoban. The new engine performed sweetly and without fault and so have decided to give the vehicle a second chance. Fuel consumption for the trip over was 8.8 l/100km. The return trip through the high country, which included towing an 850kg Ultimate Camper Trailer recorded 11.8. The total distance now covered since April 2015 is just over 30,000km.

Rob :)

[SBD4]

Good to hear you had a positive outcome. Hopefully that is the end of it.

[LandyAndy]

Great to hear a positive ending.
Many are quick to bag JLRA for not helping out,good to hear your result.
ENJOY
Andrew

[Reijni]

Will make high km versions more valuable! [emoji1]

That's when my L319 2.7 **** itself

Regular Service quality Fuel and Oil.

My D1 2.5td has 394k's still humming.

JLRA have there head in the sand about it too......

[trebor]

Sorry to hear about this, antelope, hell of a shame on what is a fairly robust engine that there are a few apparently silly design flaws.

Almost makes me think about selling mine.

What kind of service history does your car have? What year? How many km?

I'm trying to work out whether it is a year based thing or if it's happening across the board. So far it seems like earlier cars are most affected. Ie 2005-2006


Its not just a problem with the earlier versions either 2.7 or 3.0 litre. My crankshaft came adrift in a 2015 TDV6 model at 25,000km.

Nick

[Reijni]

Pop went the crankshaft bearing shells...

please please message me if you have this issue too



Will make high km versions more valuable! [emoji1]

[PerthDisco]

Pop went the crankshaft bearing shells...

please please message me if you have this issue too

Sad to hear.

Details?
Year?
Kms?
Towing?
Chipping/ Reprogramming?
How long owned?
Service intervals?
Dealer serviced?
Reputable Indy serviced?

[Russrobe]

132131
Pop went the crankshaft bearing shells...

please please message me if you have this issue too

Tidy looking 2.7 Territory engine sitting on Gumtree for $3500, get onto it asap if it's a match!

Cancel that, it's gone. Keep an eye out.

[northiam]

If this is such an issue what are the yanks thinking using this engine for 2018?

The ties that still bind Ford, Land Rover -- engines (http://www.autonews.com/article/20170108/BLOG06/170109861/the-ties-that-still-bind-ford-land-rover----engines)

Insider: 2018 Ford F-150 Diesel Engine Belongs to Lion Family (http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1707-insider-2018-ford-f-150-diesel-engine-lion-family/)

F150 "Lion" Diesel Expectations - 2018 Ford F150 Diesel Forum (http://www.dieself150forum.com/forum/193-2018-f150-diesel-general-discussion/1097-f150-lion-diesel-expectations.html)

[Russrobe]

If this is such an issue what are the yanks thinking using this engine for 2018?

The ties that still bind Ford, Land Rover -- engines (http://www.autonews.com/article/20170108/BLOG06/170109861/the-ties-that-still-bind-ford-land-rover----engines)

Insider: 2018 Ford F-150 Diesel Engine Belongs to Lion Family (http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1707-insider-2018-ford-f-150-diesel-engine-lion-family/)

F150 "Lion" Diesel Expectations - 2018 Ford F150 Diesel Forum (http://www.dieself150forum.com/forum/193-2018-f150-diesel-general-discussion/1097-f150-lion-diesel-expectations.html)

Strangely enough, the same engine in a Ford Territory doesn't seem to have the issue.. I can't find anything online pointing to it, definitely no service bulletin, where as type in Discovery 3/4 crank bearing and there's plenty.

I'd be tempted to buy the $8800 long crate Ford Territory motor sitting on eBay (or price up from Ford) with everything down to the turbo brand new.

As others have said, it's a small proportion that have blown. Unlike the old Nissan Patrols time bomb which is more of a case of when it will go bang, not if, this appears more of a case of bad luck if you happen to be one of the few... Then you keep your fingers crossed Land Rover will save you, which seems a lot more likely than can be said for other manufacturers!!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Ya gotta wonder why Ford didnt go with the SDV8,, I mean its just sitting in their racks, alongside the V6,,
cheapskates.

[goofyr]

When I was on the market for a used D3 I had a chat with Ward at Graeme Cooper. He mentioned that the 2.7 problems they’ve seen related to less than ideal cooling. Blocked radiators and the like that contributed to the crankshaft failures. He said he wouldn’t steer away from the 2.7. On the other hand they had a couple of 3.0s that had engine failures which they couldn’t explain.

[remoman]

The bloke at my local LR indie said if he had to choose a reliable engine to transplant into something it'd be the 2.7L. And these guys see A LOT of LR's.

[BeeJ]

By the way,we all take Tombie to be our god.Hail the great Tombie:):):):)
Andrew

Not me...

[Tombie]

Not me...

[emoji13] You don’t like me; I’m good with that. [emoji12]

Seems your engine isn’t the only thing with a Chip on it [emoji48]

[DiscoJeffster]

Popcorn [emoji897][emoji23]

[crawal]

Interesting , spoke with a service advisor at the local Ford dealership they love the 2.7's a few EGR valves (lhand ones and cheaper from Landrover than ford) issues but the same with Transits and Rangers .
They have replace 2 engines one at 80k never been serviced ran out of oil , the other unknown was a police unit .He said they have plenty running over 250km's ,trick he said maintain it !!!

[PerthDisco]

the 2.7 problems they’ve seen related to less than ideal cooling. Blocked radiators and the like that contributed to the crankshaft failures.

So I wonder if roo bars and spotlights etc have a role to play?

Not sure if a radiator would get blocked internally?

[DiscoJeffster]

So I wonder if roo bars and spotlights etc have a role to play?

Not sure if a radiator would get blocked internally?

Definitely do, however it’s normally through major neglect. I’d be surprised to see it in a Land Rover.

[jonesy63]

I suspect there are two culprits for cooling issues: blocked fins from driving through mud and blocked radiator internally from not changing the coolant.

While I had the winch out for maintenance, I hosed the radiator and intercooler. I reckon I was about 30 mins waiting for it to run clear! [bighmmm]

[DiscoJeffster]

I suspect there are two culprits for cooling issues: blocked fins from driving through mud and blocked radiator internally from not changing the coolant.

While I had the winch out for maintenance, I hosed the radiator and intercooler. I reckon I was about 30 mins waiting for it to run clear! [bighmmm]

That’s interesting. I’d never considered the external aspect of it. Given I’m sure the majority of Disco owners are not dipping their vehicles, i can’t believe this is a factor. I sure you can’t make any correlation of that, forgetting causation.

[Russrobe]

So I wonder if roo bars and spotlights etc have a role to play?

Not sure if a radiator would get blocked internally?

Doubt it, they provide no less air flow than the standard bumper. Besides, it doesn't seem more common on ones with bull bars.

[dirvine]

When I put my discreet winch in, I did notice the bottom of the radiators were covered in mud. I do not regularly drive through muddy water, but I was amazed at the amount that was there even in my car which is a little over 15 months old!

[Tombie]

When I put my discreet winch in, I did notice the bottom of the radiators were covered in mud. I do not regularly drive through muddy water, but I was amazed at the amount that was there even in my car which is a little over 15 months old!

Road grime just builds up...As does bugs

[goofyr]

So I wonder if roo bars and spotlights etc have a role to play?

Not sure if a radiator would get blocked internally?

The example Ward told me was external, the radiator had a mat of grass seeds on it.

[scarry]

Doubt it, they provide no less air flow than the standard bumper. Besides, it doesn't seem more common on ones with bull bars.


I will have to agree to disagree,look at two vehicles,from the front, side by side,one with an ARB bar,one without(D3/4).

You will notice the airflow is definitely restricted on the vehicle with the bar,particularly down low.Then if you add large spotlights?

But,as you said,failures are not more common on vehicles with bars,and also how much the restriction affects a vehicle with a clean rad,who knows?.It would also effect the intercooler,condenser and oil cooler.

It may also only affect the vehicle when it is on its limits,that is ambients over 40 degrees,and working hard,such as pulling a large van up a long hill,Ac on,when it needs all the airflow it can get.

Slow work, in low range,in soft sand,as an example, it may not have any affect at all,due to lower airflow,little ram air .

If these vehicles are running too hot,shouldn't they go into limp mode or whatever,as the Puma will?

Land Rovers generally have very good cooling systems,they were always designed for 50 degrees ambients.

Never seen a post on here about a D3/4 overheating,ever,so maybe just an excuse by LR or whoever,for these engine failures.

The only way i would have thought it may effect crankshaft bearings,would be if the heat caused the oil to get too thin,but then surely there would be other signs on internal engine parts that this would have happened?

[Ean Austral]

I will have to agree to disagree,look at two vehicles,from the front, side by side,one with an ARB bar,one without(D3/4).

You will notice the airflow is definitely restricted on the vehicle with the bar,particularly down low.Then if you add large spotlights?

But,as you said,failures are not more common on vehicles with bars,and also how much the restriction affects a vehicle with a clean rad,who knows?.It would also effect the intercooler,condenser and oil cooler.

It may also only affect the vehicle when it is on its limits,that is ambients over 40 degrees,and working hard,such as pulling a large van up a long hill,Ac on,when it needs all the airflow it can get.

Slow work, in low range,in soft sand,as an example, it may not have any affect at all,due to lower airflow,little ram air .

If these vehicles are running too hot,shouldn't they go into limp mode or whatever,as the Puma will?

Land Rovers generally have very good cooling systems,they were always designed for 50 degrees ambients.

Never seen a post on here about a D3/4 overheating,ever,so maybe just an excuse by LR or whoever,for these engine failures.

The only way i would have thought it may effect crankshaft bearings,would be if the heat caused the oil to get too thin,but then surely there would be other signs on internal engine parts that this would have happened?

I was under the impression the reason the bearings spin is because the designers in their wisdom never put the locating tabs ( I am sure that's not what they are called ) on the bearings.

I read that these engines were built without those tabs , so the question has to be asked WHY.. In the pic below you can see the tab I speak of, on the left corner of the shell , which would help the shell from spinning.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/460.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi6xsbZhL_XAhVCJpQKHQKNA-oQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgarage.grumpysperformance.com%2Fi ndex.php%3Fthreads%2Fmeasuring-crank-bearing-journals.5478%2F&psig=AOvVaw1CmPWJ5d9Hc9KjQCWyl6Vz&ust=1510782238288451)

[DiscoJeffster]

[/B]I was under the impression the reason the bearings spin is because the designers in their wisdom never put the locating tabs ( I am sure that's not what they are called ) on the bearings.

I read that these engines were built without those tabs , so the question has to be asked WHY.. In the pic below you can see the tab I speak of, on the left corner of the shell , which would help the shell from spinning.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/460.jpg (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi6xsbZhL_XAhVCJpQKHQKNA-oQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgarage.grumpysperformance.com%2Fi ndex.php%3Fthreads%2Fmeasuring-crank-bearing-journals.5478%2F&psig=AOvVaw1CmPWJ5d9Hc9KjQCWyl6Vz&ust=1510782238288451)

Get Your Bearings - Engine Builder Magazine (http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2009/11/get-your-bearings/)

The tang is to aid assembly and doesn’t stop it spinning. Correct assembly stops that by maintaining outward pressure in the shell. If it’s grabbing it’s because either oil pressure has gone, the oil has become contaminated and caused a build up leading to again a lack of oil, or again, the shell has worked loose relieving the pressure required to keep it in place. It’s been noted previously by some who’ve disassembled the failed engines that the caps were loose, so that’s at least one explanation for some failures. Hungover poms building engines on a Friday [emoji4]

[Ean Austral]

Get Your Bearings - Engine Builder Magazine (http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2009/11/get-your-bearings/)

The tang is to aid assembly and doesn’t stop it spinning. Correct assembly stops that by maintaining outward pressure in the shell. If it’s grabbing it’s because either oil pressure has gone, the oil has become contaminated and caused a build up leading to again a lack of oil, or again, the shell has worked loose relieving the pressure required to keep it in place. It’s been noted previously by some who’ve disassembled the failed engines that the caps were loose, so that’s at least one explanation for some failures. Hungover poms building engines on a Friday [emoji4]

you have your view , which is most likely the main reason , I have mine which believes they would assist in stopping them spinning purely based on the fine clearances they operate in - regardless, from what I have seen from L/R & Ford , of which I am a fan of both , they shouldn't mess with things that assist in any way as they need al the help they can get .

Cheers Ean

[incisor]

Is there a difference in the bearing / lube spec used by Land Rover vs Ford ?

[northiam]

As a new to me owner of a D4 SDV6, MY11 i'm seriously developing buyers remorse[bigsad]

[Ean Austral]

Is there a difference in the bearing / lube spec used by Land Rover vs Ford ?

Also is the recommended service schedual the same between the 2 ?

Cheers Ean

[DiscoJeffster]

you have your view , which is most likely the main reason , I have mine which believes they would assist in stopping them spinning purely based on the fine clearances they operate in - regardless from what I have seen from L/R & Ford , of which I am a fan of both , they shouldn't mess with things that assist in any way as they need al the help they can get .

Cheers Ean

Lol. It’s not my view, it’s engineering fact. I’ve built a number of engines in my time, measured bearing clearances, and had them run reliably for years at double the original horsepower. I’ve also blown one up (seized and threw two rods out the side because the conrod bearings gave way, because, drum roll, all the engine oil was on the road behind me after the dry sump system sprang a leak).

Tangs won’t alleviate a systemic issue and won’t help here. If the bearing is moving and needs a tang to keep it in place, the engine is moments away from failure as the bearing is being physically worn away. The moving parts are floating on a thin bed of oil that does not create enough drag to move a bearing shell. If something is, it’s boom time.

[rick130]

Lol. It’s not my view, it’s engineering fact. I’ve built a number of engines in my time, measured bearing clearances, and had them run reliably for years at double the original horsepower. I’ve also blown one up (seized and threw two rods out the side because the conrod bearings gave way, because, drum roll, all the engine oil was on the road behind me after the dry sump system sprang a leak).

Tangs won’t alleviate a systemic issue and won’t help here. If the bearing is moving and needs a tang to keep it in place, the engine is moments away from failure as the bearing is being physically worn away. The moving parts are floating on a thin bed of oil that does not create enough drag to move a bearing shell. If something is, it’s boom time.This.

[101RRS]

Bearings with the tags also spin (I believe the late 2.7s and all the 3.0s have them and bearings in these spin). They have this problem in the UK in both engines where they do not have bullbars etc to block air flow. Interestingly the 3.6TDV8 is just a 2.7 with two extra cylinders and it does not seem to have this problem. I would assume the same bearing etc are used in both engines.

My view is that the issue in younger vehicles is generally poor maintenance - late oil changes, not changing the oil filter. In older engines is it simple old age and its associated wear in the bearings so the required pressures are no longer there to keep the bearings in place - maybe the tags would help here.

Also a few people on here have reported finding bearing caps loose when doing work on the engine but I have not read this being identified when an engine has actually failed - but then most do not disassemble the engine as a broken crank is obvious from the outside.

Lots of ideas but few conclusive answers.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

Lol. It’s not my view, it’s engineering fact. I’ve built a number of engines in my time, measured bearing clearances, and had them run reliably for years at double the original horsepower. I’ve also blown one up (seized and threw two rods out the side because the conrod bearings gave way, because, drum roll, all the engine oil was on the road behind me after the dry sump system sprang a leak).

Tangs won’t alleviate a systemic issue and won’t help here. If the bearing is moving and needs a tang to keep it in place, the engine is moments away from failure as the bearing is being physically worn away. The moving parts are floating on a thin bed of oil that does not create enough drag to move a bearing shell. If something is, it’s boom time.

Fair enough I am happy to learn something new , I knew about them floating on the thin bed of oil , but I just assumed that the tangs played another roll , and that was as the engine got older and started to wear they aided in keeping the shells in place. It not my field of expertise, but every engine I have seen ranging from a little 4 pot that was in a datto 180b I used to own right thru to the 35ltr cat engines in the boats I manage all have the tangs on the shells .

given L/R past with things like oil pump bolts not loctite'd and a few others , I would have thought a tang to locate the shells would be a good idea , but, I guess the idea of saving a few $$ where ever they can wins every time .

thanks and Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

given L/R past with things like oil pump bolts not loctite'd and a few others , I would have thought a tang to locate the shells would be a good idea , but, I guess the idea of saving a few $$ where ever they can wins every time .

While it is easy to put the boot into LR over this because the engines are in a Landrover product and LRs poor response to the issue, the engine is not actually build by LR - it is a PSA-Ford design and all engines are build by Ford in the Dagenham Ford UK engine factory - irrespective of whether the engines end up in a Landrover, Ford, Citroen, Peugeot and Jaguar - I assume the US versions of the engines will be built there but not sure.

So if there are dodgy build processes on the engine it is a Ford issue not LR.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

While it is easy to put the boot into LR over this because the engines are in a Landrover product and LRs poor response to the issue, the engine is not actually build by LR - it is a PSA-Ford design and all engines are build by Ford in the Dagenham Ford UK engine factory - irrespective of whether the engines end up in a Landrover, Ford, Citroen, Peugeot and Jaguar - I assume the US versions of the engines will be built there but not sure.

So if there are dodgy build processes on the engine it is a Ford issue not LR.

Garry

yes correct , read my previous post where I did mention Ford as being a party to it.

Cheers Ean

[Tins]

I suspect there are two culprits for cooling issues: blocked fins from driving through mud and blocked radiator internally from not changing the coolant.

While I had the winch out for maintenance, I hosed the radiator and intercooler. I reckon I was about 30 mins waiting for it to run clear! [bighmmm]

Granted, it's from a different car, a D1, but the principle is the same:

132199

[Tins]

Also is the recommended service schedual the same between the 2 ?

Cheers Ean

From what I can find, it seems LR recommend 24,000 k intervals, while for Ford it's 30,000.

[Tins]

Fair enough I am happy to learn something new , I knew about them floating on the thin bed of oil , but I just assumed that the tangs played another roll , and that was as the engine got older and started to wear they aided in keeping the shells in place. It not my field of expertise, but every engine I have seen ranging from a little 4 pot that was in a datto 180b I used to own right thru to the 35ltr cat engines in the boats I manage all have the tangs on the shells .

given L/R past with things like oil pump bolts not loctite'd and a few others , I would have thought a tang to locate the shells would be a good idea , but, I guess the idea of saving a few $$ where ever they can wins every time .

thanks and Cheers Ean

The bearings don't wear on the 'tang' side.

Also, if the crankshaft grabs a bearing then nothing is going to stop the bearing from spinning. The forces involved are just too great.

[Ean Austral]

The bearings don't wear on the 'tang' side.

Also, if the crankshaft grabs a bearing then nothing is going to stop the bearing from spinning. The forces involved are just too great.

Thanks - I fully understand that , but every time I have seen it done , or , done crankshaft shells the tangs are on opposite sides and the cap when placed in position has a flat surface which buts up against each tang and locates them into position, it seems I assumed incorrectly that this served 2 purposes 1 to locate the shells and 2 to stop them being able to spin as they are sitting against the opposing flat surface, and not blocking off the oil gallery .

Cheers Ean

[scarry]

While it is easy to put the boot into LR over this because the engines are in a Landrover product and LRs poor response to the issue, the engine is not actually build by LR - it is a PSA-Ford design and all engines are build by Ford in the Dagenham Ford UK engine factory - irrespective of whether the engines end up in a Landrover, Ford, Citroen, Peugeot and Jaguar - I assume the US versions of the engines will be built there but not sure.

So if there are dodgy build processes on the engine it is a Ford issue not LR.

Garry

Ok,sure,but are there failures in other brands that use the same engine?

[Tins]

Ok,sure,but are there failures in other brands that use the same engine?

They pop up on the Jaguar forums. But, as one guy I read says, "There are a lot of 2.7's out there in a wide variety of PSA/LR/Jag cars, and you only generally hear about the ones that fail, rather than the ones that are still running fine at x,000 Miles...."

[Tins]

Here's a site that may be of interest:

I have a Jaguar S type diesel 2.7 . The engne seized 6 weeks (https://www.justanswer.com/uk-car/3ur2y-jaguar-type-diesel-2-7-engne-seized-weeks.html)

[Ean Austral]

From what I can find, it seems LR recommend 24,000 k intervals, while for Ford it's 30,000.

I can't help but wonder if this is where the problem lies . I know oil has come a long way , but unless we do a major trip , our D3 would struggle to do 4000ks a year. Personally I think even running the same oil for a year can't be good on a engine that has EGR , but plenty say synthetic oil can cope.

Its just the way my brain works , 5 ltrs of oil trying to run for 24,000ks in a environment that pumps a % ( even tho small ) of pollutants back into itself. Personally I am happy to put new oil and filter every 6 months or 10,000ks even if people tell me I am wasting $$.

Cheers Ean

[PerthDisco]

From what I can find, it seems LR recommend 24,000 k intervals, while for Ford it's 30,000.

Friend of a friend just sold an 05 D3 TDV6 S with 280,000km. He’s had it since new.

Had not even replaced the timing belt!

Gearbox was stuffed needed rebuild.

God knows what the oil change history was.

Got $6k for it.

Bought a new D5!

[101RRS]

The other thing to take into account is that the failures are not in the crankshaft main bearings, as I understand it, it is a conrod big end bearing about 1/3 from the front (not sure which piston) that grabs the bearing and spins it etc but that is not normally detectable from the drivers seat - this fatiques the crankshaft journal at the big end and the crankshaft breaks (not sure if this is instaneous or takes time). Seems to happen like this in most engines that have actually been checked - if all engines were checked before being scrapped an different result might show up.

So the $64,000 question is what makes the engines fail at this point - why is this the weak point? And why some engines and not others - if it was a design issue then all engines would be failing which they are not (only a small number) - this leads me to the bad maintenance theory or the bearing caps not being tight on some engines.

I have reduced my oil changes from 12,000km to 10,000km and always use the right fully synthetic oil and in view of some reported loose bearing caps considering whether to get the sump dropped and the torque on the bearing caps checked - not undone - just torqued to the correct amount.

Garry

[Tombie]

Don’t fear... a post of FB has yet another Toyota D4D destroying itself....

Happens far more frequently than any PAG TDV6 going pop...

[scarry]

Don’t fear... a post of FB has yet another Toyota D4D destroying itself....

Happens far more frequently than any PAG TDV6 going pop...

But there are probably far more D4D engines around than any other smallish diesel engine,by a fair margin.

It’s often the known injector faults that cause them to pop.

[Tins]

But there are probably far more D4D engines around than any other smallish diesel engine,by a fair margin.



Maybe, but the PSA V6 diesels are very common, used in many different cars. I reckon that if you added them all up you might be surprised.

[jonesy63]

Granted, it's from a different car, a D1, but the principle is the same:

132199

Right... and just remember that radiator outlets are at the bottom of them. Reason? Colder coolant is at the bottom. With all the fins clogged in the bottom 1/4 - 1/3, the coolant may not be getting cooled sufficiently. Also add in where the majority of the air flow into the radiator - most would be at the bottom (through the gaping big hole), rather than through the grill. (Which is why the intercooler is down there).

[DiscoJeffster]

I’m going to say that I cannot believe the water cooling system is the cause or even a contributing factor. Firstly none of the reported failures I’ve read have reported the car flagging a high temp situation. They have a sophisticated ECU that’s capable of monitoring water temp (and oil temp) and taking action both at the engine and flagging it on the dash. I also find it very unlikely they have had a temperature sensor failure that meant it didn’t warn them of overheating in one way or another, however I guess that’s a possibility.

Sadly the reasons for these failures will be known within JLR. It’s just a shame they don’t divulge.

[Tins]

I’m going to say that I cannot believe the water cooling system is the cause or even a contributing factor. Firstly none of the reported failures I’ve read have reported the car flagging a high temp situation. They have a sophisticated ECU that’s capable of monitoring water temp (and oil temp) and taking action both at the engine and flagging it on the dash. I also find it very unlikely they have had a temperature sensor failure that meant it didn’t warn them of overheating in one way or another, however I guess that’s a possibility.

Sadly the reasons for these failures will be known within JLR. It’s just a shame they don’t divulge.

It is hard to argue with your points, but it must be noted that there is little to no reporting of issues of this nature on the Ford forums, on what is essentially the same engine. There must be something that causes this issue in LRs. I'm not for a moment saying that cooling is it. The page I linked to re Jag and DPF might have merit.

[DiscoJeffster]

Yep. Can’t disagree. And for both 2.7L and 3.0L as well. It could be a packaging issue of the engine in this vehicle that under some circumstances is problematic. Think back to the VL Commodore and its Nissan engine. If I remember right it had an issue where the engine was higher than the radiator and was difficult to purge the cooling system effectively leading to issues.

You’re right, I haven’t a clue. I wish LR would release potential causes so is as consumers could, if possible, take measures to reduce or mitigate.

[Russrobe]

Right... and just remember that radiator outlets are at the bottom of them. Reason? Colder coolant is at the bottom. With all the fins clogged in the bottom 1/4 - 1/3, the coolant may not be getting cooled sufficiently. Also add in where the majority of the air flow into the radiator - most would be at the bottom (through the gaping big hole), rather than through the grill. (Which is why the intercooler is down there).Isn't the entire bottom 400mm of the radiator in the D4 D3 covered by the intercooler anyway? Which is why I figured the bull bars steel plating makes zero difference. Could affect air intake temps only.

Mud clogging the whole area up obviously still would make a difference, but if there's zero air flow there due to a intercooler hard up against it I can't see the bullbar making any at all.

[jonesy63]

Isn't the entire bottom 400mm of the radiator in the D4 D3 covered by the intercooler anyway? Which is why I figured the bull bars steel plating makes zero difference. Could affect air intake temps only.

Mud clogging the whole area up obviously still would make a difference, but if there's zero air flow there due to a intercooler hard up against it I can't see the bullbar making any at all.

Air flows through the intercooler and then through the radiator (at a higher temp) - unless they're clogged with mud, grasshoppers, leaves, a combination, etc.

I can't recall the intercooler being anywhere near 400mm tall though.

Agree on the bullbar making much difference (or factory bumper bar for that matter).

So that makes two different LR indies making the same comments about overheating. That would account for the older ones, but not all. For those, I expect it is a combination of "Friday afternoon build" syndrome (forgetting to torque nuts correctly), or lack of maintenance (no or extended oil change,etc.)

[101RRS]

To me this whole possible overheating thing is a furfy. There are enough systems in the car to alert the driver of a heating issue. Also how does an overheating relate to a bearing spinning where oil - even if it is too hot - does not provide adequate lubrication. A whole bunch of systems would cut in to protect and advise the driver of a potential issue.

For sure if an engine was overheated and a piston seized causing the crank to break but there is absolutely no evidence of over heating in this form - in fact one of the common scenarios is that the engine was running fine and without any warning whatsover the engine stopped with the dash lighting up - the dash lighting up after the failure not before.

[Tombie]

The Intercooler on a D3/D4 2.7 is below the Radiator. Not in front or behind...
Radiator gets air from Grill, Intercooler from the mouth in the bumper..

[PerthDisco]

There must be something that causes this issue in LRs.

Maybe hauling around the weight of a Rolls Royce on only 2.7 litres vs 6.7 litres?

[northiam]

The engine oil cooler is supplied by coolant from the heads before exiting to the radiator.
If the coolant temp exceeds 100 degC could this overheat the oil causing an issue.

To remove the radiator on the SDV6 requires decanting the ac system removing the condenser, intercooler, radiator and fuel sub-cooler in one assy
then disassembly from there!!!

[Tins]

Maybe hauling around the weight of a Rolls Royce on only 2.7 litres vs 6.7 litres?

Lol. But, a Disco is only (!) 400 kg heavier than a Territory, and I see lot's of the big Fords towing. Things like horse floats and big boats.

Mysterious.

[Ferret]

...If the coolant temp exceeds 100 degC could this overheat the oil causing an issue.

So, what is normal oil temperature on an SDV6 engine?

I see ~110C when looking at such things on my IID tool. Corresponding coolant temp is around ~85C.

[Russrobe]

The Intercooler on a D3/D4 2.7 is below the Radiator. Not in front or behind...
Radiator gets air from Grill, Intercooler from the mouth in the bumper..Ah I see now. I was throw off by the intercooler being twice the thickness as the radiator. Looks like I will need a new intercooler rather than radiator due to mud ingress. Radiator is untouched and intercooler had been hammered. I had some thick mud clogging up the entire front end from a hole while doing the Karunji Track. 6 water crossing the next day cleared that out though.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/517.jpg

[northiam]

So, what is normal oil temperature on an SDV6 engine?

I see ~110C when looking at such things on my IID tool. Corresponding coolant temp is around ~85C.


I thought motor oil temperature over 130C was extreme (back in my boy racer days)

5W-30 oil is 30 weight oil @ 100C ?

[northiam]

The oil temp sender unit is in the sump I read...

[Tombie]

I thought motor oil temperature over 130C was extreme (back in my boy racer days)

5W-30 oil is 30 weight oil @ 100C ?

Your previous post stated Coolant temp...

100c is not a magic number - it only sticks in people’s heads as “boiling point of water at sea level”...

Most if not all vehicles run above this under hard load.

Coolant temp leaving the engine is different to radiator temp - especially on the outlet side of the unit.

[shanegtr]

I thought motor oil temperature over 130C was extreme (back in my boy racer days)

5W-30 oil is 30 weight oil @ 100C ?
Yea engine oil ratings are based at 100degC. The hotter the oil the thinner it will be. I've seen the engine oil temp ony IID tool in the low 120deg range quite often in my D3. Living in the Pilbara I've bumped up my oil to a 5w-40 rather than the 5w30. Will see how it compares through oil analysis

[northiam]

Does anyone know what an optimum and max oil temp we should expect?

Why oil temp is important - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElYJYoFCRro)

A compromised engine cooling system and oil cooler could cause excessive oil temperatures.

A 120C sump oil temp seems high?

[Tombie]

Again are you referencing to preconceived notions of water boiling at sea level at 100c?

I think you may subconsciously be... (many people do)

[northiam]

No
I am well aware that water in a automotive cooling system is under pressure and increases the boiling point to 120c or so.
Turns out the oil cooler fed direct from radiator outlet at approx 60C coolant temp so why is oil temp at sump so high?

[DiscoJeffster]

It’s acknowledged that modern engines run hotter than older engines and that 130 degrees is not considered a ‘problem’ with synthetic lubricants. This is why the LR engine doesn’t flag an error at such temps from my experience. This temp would be experienced in extreme climates (Pilbara) and/or towing heavy loads. This should be deemed as ‘arduous’ conditions halving the service interval. Running high oil temps will reduce oil service life leading to premature wear if not changed more frequently.

[DiscoJeffster]

It’s actually a shame they’re not running adaptive servicing as it could easily tell you based on historical usage when you should change the oils etc.

[Ean Austral]

Yea engine oil ratings are based at 100degC. The hotter the oil the thinner it will be. I've seen the engine oil temp ony IID tool in the low 120deg range quite often in my D3. Living in the Pilbara I've bumped up my oil to a 5w-40 rather than the 5w30. Will see how it compares through oil analysis

Been running 5w 40 in ours since we got it up to Darwin . Don't do oil sampling but be keen to see how it compares .

cheers Ean

[rick130]

Syn oils don't have the viscosity breakdown above 110°C or so that straight mineral oils used to suffer (and then some suffered it more than others)

If you are seeing oil temps up around 130° consistently it might pay to use an xW-40.
I don't have the computer up atm to run the numbers to compare, but there are enough viscosity calculators online that you can plug some numbers into and compare what a suitable xW-40 oil @ 130° is.
Most xW-30's are around 10-11cSt @ 100°C. xW-40's are generally around 14-14.5cSt@ 100°

FWIW on race engines I used to look for 100-110°C engine oil for maximum power with an xW-30, and pretty much the same when I ran super thin oils with tight bearing clearances. (Lighter than SAE 20)

[ozscott]

Bit off topic but not all modern engines run hot. I was in my mates new Triton on the highway (variable valve timing tdi - impressively quiet, although the pitching bouncing ride on bad bitumen is a fair way from his D3) and it runs 89 to 92 on the highway depending on hills etc.

Cheers

[scarry]

Bit off topic but not all modern engines run hot. I was in my mates new Triton on the highway (variable valve timing tdi - impressively quiet, although the pitching bouncing ride on bad bitumen is a fair way from his D3) and it runs 89 to 92 on the highway depending on hills etc.

Cheers

Diesels generally run cooler than petrols.
Never seen the coolant temps on my D4 over 86 degrees on the Gap tool,but I don’t know where the sensor is.

[Tins]

Slightly OT, but it's worthwhile remembering that the engine oil isn't just there to lubricate; it also plays a vital role in cooling as well.

Anyway, I reckon garrycol makes some good points about this issue and the likelihood of it being temp related. There are far more diesel Territories out there than D3/4s, many of them doing duty in the Outback as farmers' rides, and they seem to be doing OK.

[101RRS]

Just came across this link on the Disco 3 UK forum http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showth...ost3745430 (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/284764-I-think-its-happened?p=3745430#post3745430)

The guy had the cracked crank tested.
This is the text without pics - click on the link above to get everything

"Crank examination results are in. I asked an expert in lubrication and broken rotating machinery to look at the front piece of my broken TDV6 crank, as well as some main and big end bearing shells and a piston and rings.

The main conclusion is that the crank break started in two areas (within the same main crack), and probably took a couple of months to go from start to complete break.

The break happened at the junction between the second big end and the second main (the first main is at the front ie pulley side of the engine).

I have attached photos.

In the first, the origin of one crack is shown: in the material very close to the thinnest part of the crank, in the area where the oil drilling from the second main to the second big end passes close to the surface of the crank. In the second picture of the same page, is a closeup of where the crack probably grew very quickly just after it started.

In the second photo, the second crack origin is shown. Beneath the surface of the metal, and a bit further from the oil drilling.

Both of these photos show areas of very high stress within the crank.

The third photo is a close up of the first crack. The initial part happened in mostly hardened metal, and therefore travelled very quickly.

The fourth photo is a close-up of the oil drilling, showing the poor surface finish, next to the radius in the big end journal, which is polished and more like what the surface of the drilling should look like.

Conclusions: The crank does not have much material in this particular area, and this is exacerbated by the poor placement of the oil drilling. It is difficult to see exactly why the drilling is placed as it is, perhaps there was bad access (by the CNC machine) to the area, compromising the placement. The material in this area is also hardened quite deeply, meaning that the steel is brittle and cracks will grow quickly.

This must all be seen in the following context: all engineering parts are a compromise, in some way. Generally, parts cannot be made as strong as possible, because they also need to be lighter, smaller, and even manufacturable (for instance, it may not have been possible to drill the oil gallery optimally in terms of stress). Not to mention cost.....So there will be areas of stress which are higher and lower than the average. This may be tolerable, if the overall stress conditions of the crank remain below whatever the limits are. If they are not, for whatever reason, then failure is likely to occur in the high stress areas.

However, in this case, it looks as if the crank has a particularly poor design in this area (there may be others too, this is just the one which failed first). There are ways to reduce the effect of this poor design, for instance having a torsional vibration damper that is working properly. But really, the design needs to be changed, specifically, the oil channel needs to be re positioned, and ideally, polished.

The analyst made the point that he has seen flimsier cranks, which don't break (eg Subaru). So its not a matter of a blatantly weak crank. More one which was inaccurately designed in the beginning, as often happens with designs: then there is a reaction which addresses the problem with a redesign, and it stops happening.

The analyst also confirmed a point which was made earlier in this thread (Forest Fab I think?) that a billet crank would not be better. A forged crank is the best way to go in terms of basic material strength. You don't get better, for cranks. I think there is probably a bit of leeway on that statement. Maybe other perspectives. But I'm not going to run out and look for a billet crank.

I can only hope that LR has made some changes in the crack area to the latest cranks. This is where comparing two 3 D models (old and new) would be really, really valuable. I'd be able to see where changes were made. But I guess thats a pipe dream.

Other things: there was a little corrosion on the top ring of the piston he inspected. Should not happen, and is due to buildup of nitric and sulphuric acid in the diesel. Maybe an indicator of too long oil change intervals (not the case with me, they were firstly 12000km in early life, then 10000km later), or poor oil.....While talking about oil, my oil analysis showed that the oil was up to spec in terms of viscosity, so it doesn't seem that there was fuel in the oil. The crank broke 5000km after the last oil change. Magnatec 5W30 A5.

The front main bearing was quite badly scored, indicating that the front part of the crank, forward of the break, probably wasn't running true for a while, because of the advanced cracking. By "for a while", he meant months, not seconds.

There was some carbon accumulation on the piston sidewall near the crown, but not much. Pretty good for 353000km.

I also checked my TVD. It looks slightly damaged: certainly not visibly trashed, like some I have seen on the web. But bad enough for me to be happy with my decision to change it.

So, as I expected. No hard and fast definite findings, but much more insight.

I'm hoping that:

1. LR has made appropriate changes to the oil channel design for the second main to second big end drilling, both in the geometry, as well as the surface finish
2. That heat treatment/hardening in the problem area is not too deep in later cranks
3. That the new TVD takes the torsional damping back to what it should be
4. That there are other changes to the crank which will reduce stress concentrations
5. That my new oil choice (dunno yet) is better in reducing sulphuric and nitric acid buildup'

So maybe a design issue combined with some maintenance/usage issues.

Garry

[scarry]

Interesting,that is a very high mileage engine.

It would be interesting to see the same report on a lower mileage engine that has had a similar failure.

Quite a few of the failures are engines that have done less than 150 000K.

[rick130]

I haven't seen the photos, but no factory crank I've seen has had a properly radiused and polished oil feed in a crank journal.
It's something a decent engine builder does during a performance build to improve the oil feed and reduce/remove stress raisers.

[Reijni]

Sad to hear.

Details? 2010 2.7TD D4
Year?
Kms? 192000
Towing? sometimes, wifes car
Chipping/ Reprogramming? no
How long owned? since new
Service intervals? on schedule at Solitaires and then local Indy specialist
Dealer serviced?
Reputable Indy serviced?

And Coming up to initial warranty period expirey
Extended warranty offered
Offer accepted
Extended Warranty offer not actioned by Dealer

Dealer Now: Sorry cant help.

Indy has diagnosed and written a report that it is definitely this bearing issue that SSM 71816 from May 14 refers to and was rectified in motors built after 2012.

Something dodgy about that time line to me.

Cheers


WTF!!

[Tombie]

And Coming up to initial warranty period expirey
Extended warranty offered
Offer accepted
Extended Warranty offer not actioned by Dealer

Dealer Now: Sorry cant help.

Indy has diagnosed and written a report that it is definitely this bearing issue that SSM 71816 from May 14 refers to and was rectified in motors built after 2012.

Something dodgy about that time line to me.

Cheers


WTF!!

Got the receipt for the extended warranty payment?

If you have, your well covered [emoji41]

[cruiseh]

Just came across this link on the Disco 3 UK forum http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showth...ost3745430 (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/284764-I-think-its-happened?p=3745430#post3745430)


The analyst made the point that he has seen flimsier cranks, which don't break (eg Subaru).

Garry

Subaru factory cranks are dealing with 400+kw and 6-700NM in many cars in AU, no issues at all, and they are revving them to 8-9krpm