Help...2L engine backfire with flame and power loss

[mfc]

hi
first long run scince replacement engine and ive got backfiring w flashes from exhaust and loss of power till stall.car was at 80c at the start and ran fine until 3 or so kms . then in 4th it started backfiring and lost power till stall{temp sitting on 80c still}...waited for a bit {1 or 2 mins} starts fine again ....for 700 meters then the same again..you get no response from throttle just loss of power{not cut out but over 30 secs }and backfiring..wait,,,start again etc etc till home...
there is no major smoke issue although the exhaust system is very oily from the old engine.. {the feel of it is similar to vapour lock or an exhaust baffle blocking the exhaust but with the backfire }
electrics breaking down as engine bay heats up? fuel? ,timing? backfire lighting oil in exhaust as it gets hot enough??
this only started once id hit 4th at 40 mph plus{40/45}
Where do I start? supposed to be doing safety inspection in 3 days help :o
regards mark

ps carb was untouched from previous engine ,dist as well {could it be loose wiring on generator?}

[Xtreme]

Very strange behaviour but with the backfiring, I'd be looking at timing first up.

[incisor]

the fact it went okay for a while then let go sort of lends itself to ignition component breakdown, would be my first pick

coil, condensor and or wiring to same etc etc

[dennisS1]

Remember 80% of all fuel problems will be ignition,
1. Is the plate that the points are screwed to tight at its 2 mounting screws.
2. Adjust point gap while holding shaft away from the point to make up for play.
3. Replace points with known good pair, not new pair.
4. Check timing with light or static.
5. PM me for a talk.
6. Replace plugs.
Dennis

[wrinklearthur]

Hi Mark

My first thoughts are; is the coil the correct 12 volt / or good healthy one as it maybe breaking down when it warms up?

The next thing to check is the points, look and see if they haven't come loose both in themselves or the advance retard plate they are fastened to, if that plate was stuck when the timing was done, the plate could have freed up it's movement throwing the timing setting out.

That advance retard plate should have a fine braided earth wire between the plate and the body of the distributor, make sure it isn't loose or broken as any other current path to earth from the distributor points can cause erratic results.

The last thing electrically to check is the condenser, best way to check that, is to change it with a known working one.

Drain the carby and watch for any water or dirt, a bottle of methylated spirits in the tank is a crude way of getting rid of a small amount of water in the petrol, flush the carby out and blow it clean with compressed air should sort any problems there.

.

[wrinklearthur]

Oh yes there is something else, the ignition switch !
Don't have any weight on the key as when it swings the contacts in the switch can move upsetting the power to the coil.

The cure is a new switch and then you can go back to hanging your rabbits foot on the key. :p

[series1buff]

Mark

While the engine is turned off.... Remove the air cleaner inlet from the top of the carby and look down into the carby ..... as you move the throttle up/down, look for a squirt of petrol from the accelerator pump , it should squirt a stream of petrol down the throat of the carby

Sounds like it isn't working .

It could be one of many things that can go wrong :twisted:

Mike

[mfc]

no start at all now........
1/replaced leads with narva 7mm copper core and checked with multimeter.
2/ new capacitor{ill change back to ol new one that started the car thismorning after disaster run}
3/clened and gapped points .15
4/ set points gap at 10 btdc mark ,rotor pointing at c1 lead post on leading edge while pressing diz shaft
5/ new plugs{equiv of champion n21} gapped .30
6/tightened all elec bolts from dynamo coil etc
7/ stuff of key

not a thing, no sign of firing
going to pop out and drain carbie and put old coil back in and look at carb with intake hose of then douse it in petrol and walk away{damd power line over top of car.....one of those days...

[mfc]

change condensor back and looked at banjo bolt & filter{spotless}
car runsagain but 400 meters and it dies...
had a look down carb with petrol pump running and a trickle of fuel squirts out when throttle levers worked...
coil is hand warm.....
theres a unknown white body'd lucas coil that came with engine, perhaps its ok but i dought it
ill look at the spark when it gets dark and sort that oil leak and try the other coil

[series1buff]

When you install the dissy , it is a rather tricky job and it is easy to do it incorrectly and it isnt a easy thing to describe either lol :confused:.

The leading edge of the rotor arm must be just approaching the relevant ( No 1. lead ) connection inside the cap - with the timing mark on the flywheel at the correct position. When its set up correctly , looking at it, you think the rotor isnt close enough to the lead to work properly . The vacuum advance pulls the thing into the correct position , so it sparks at the correct point .

I had to fiddle with the dissy drive gear position and it took me ages to get it all lined up


Yours might be out of position, timing wise .

I used a vacuum hand tool and connected it to the carby end of the pipe , I watched the dissy mechanism advance as I allpied vacuum to the pipe

Mike

[mfc]

Would a few loose exhaust manifold bolts set this type of thing of?
im waiting for a gasket and just noticed the two bottom bolts are loose{undone}

[mfc]

When you install the dissy , it is a rather tricky job and it is easy to do it incorrectly and it isnt a easy thing to describe either lol :confused:.

The leading edge of the rotor arm must be just approaching the relevant ( No 1. lead ) connection inside the cap - with the timing mark on the flywheel at the correct position. When its set up correctly , looking at it, you think the rotor isnt close enough to the lead to work properly . The vacuum advance pulls the thing into the correct position , so it sparks at the correct point .

I had to fiddle with the dissy drive gear position and it took me ages to get it all lined up


Yours might be out of position, timing wise .

I used a vacuum hand tool and connected it to the carby end of the pipe , I watched the dissy mechanism advance as I allpied vacuum to the pipe

Mike

the manual makes it as clear as mud.... but the cam and drive gear remaind in place ,and although the timing chain was replaced ,the valve timing {and method} was checked by several people and cross referenced with lrsoc pictorial posts and set up with a dial indicator.
##Can the position of the drive slot change with the engine at 10 btdc and both no 1 valves closed{ as in if you wind it on past this point to 10 btdc with no 1 valves closed again do you get a different distrib position? }
## don't have a vacuum tool to check it{ if the advance unit works at all}

[mfc]

Hi Mark

My first thoughts are; is the coil the correct 12 volt / or good healthy one as it maybe breaking down when it warms up?

The next thing to check is the points, look and see if they haven't come loose both in themselves or the advance retard plate they are fastened to, if that plate was stuck when the timing was done, the plate could have freed up it's movement throwing the timing setting out.

That advance retard plate should have a fine braided earth wire between the plate and the body of the distributor, make sure it isn't loose or broken as any other current path to earth from the distributor points can cause erratic results.

The last thing electrically to check is the condenser, best way to check that, is to change it with a known working one.

Drain the carby and watch for any water or dirt, a bottle of methylated spirits in the tank is a crude way of getting rid of a small amount of water in the petrol, flush the carby out and blow it clean with compressed air should sort any problems there.

.

ill dump some metho in the tank just in case but the fuel is fresh and the car was only engineless for 2 days.
ill pull the carbie off tonight and see if theres any contaminants etc inside..

[chazza]

ill dump some metho in the tank just in case but the fuel is fresh and the car was only engineless for 2 days.
ill pull the carbie off tonight and see if theres any contaminants etc inside..

Metho won't do the rubber in your fuel system any good!

Have you checked the spark with a plug out and lying on the rocker cover, or another good earth? Even in daylight you should see a strong bright-blue spark; if it is weak, or yellowish suspect the coil, or wiring on the low-tension circuit.

You could also check the timing by whitening the TDC mark on the flywheel and pointing a timing-light at it, whilst someone else cranks the engine. I can't remember if the TDC mark is set for No 4, or No 1 piston but you can check by setting the mark and removing the rocker cover to see which one has loose rockers. The strobe should show you TDC somewhere in the aperture, you then need to work-out which side of the mark is advance,

Cheers Charlie

[mfc]

no 1 piston....
ill paint the tdc mark on ,gotta be heaps easier.
Its running again ,and I think its the extra heat from the loose{was} manifold and damaged gasket that caused the backfiring , but im suspecting that the acorn nut type lucas coil {removed atm and replaced with a later style lucas one} is breaking down with the heat from the exhaust leak and the extra heat under load. Make any sense?
regards mark

[wrinklearthur]

Metho won't do the rubber in your fuel system any good!
Hi Charlie

I don't think a full 500 ml bottle of Metho in 45 litres of petrol would be too destructive in a one off application.
.

[wrinklearthur]

Its running again ,and I think its the extra heat from the loose{was} manifold and damaged gasket that caused the backfiring , but im suspecting that the acorn nut type lucas coil {removed atm and replaced with a later style lucas one} is breaking down with the heat from the exhaust leak and the extra heat under load. Make any sense?

Changing the coil is the way to go.
What you can't see inside a faulty coil, is a couple of turns of it's wire that have lost part of their insulation and shorted together.
That shorted turn upsets the magnetic field of the energised windings causing heat to build up and the increasing heat further upsets the magnetic field, with it getting hotter until it collapses altogether.

A faulty coil, can get quite hot to touch.
.

[russellrovers]

ill dump some metho in the tank just in case but the fuel is fresh and the car was only engineless for 2 days.
ill pull the carbie off tonight and see if theres any contaminants etc inside..
hi you should have a fuel bowl to check for sediment worth a check

[mfc]

hi Russell, I empty'd the sediment bowl a month ago but ill do it this arvo as well..
Arthur , problem is that the is an unknown item even though lucas and compatable. the black acorn nut one was fine two weeks ago and is fine until under driving load,thats what had me thinking that its the heat bringing out /magnifying the fault . the manifold leak{fixed} and manifold to pipe gasket were putting out a hell of a lot of heat, so mutch so that the guard surface of the wing was hot to touch after a short drive.
plus new engine mounts put the front pipe section in touch with the guard.

[chazza]

Dodgy coils can be so infuriating because they can be dodgy quite randomly.

On my P6 it would start when cold with no problem but not start at all once the engine had run. It was eventually traced when the spark was compared to a known good coil. They will get quite warm when they are being used, so don't be alarmed if it is rather hot to touch,

Cheers Charlie

[mfc]

no luck
ran under own power for 300 meters then the same thing {smaller backfire,,pop realy} then comes to a chugging stop , wont start immediately {10 secs} then starts but stalls out, 30 secs to a minuit and it starts but dies under power, yet will idle and rev freely while stationary.
only other thing that springs to mind is that the air filter oil bowl is of a different year car{has the steel mesh folded onto the upper part, as in you cant get it off. perhaps its cutting off the air

im now bald.....

[bee utey]

Sounds to me like your fuel delivery rate is too low to drive on, you're revving the engine in what gathers in the float chamber after some time. I'd remove the fuel line off the carby and run it into a container, check the pump flow rate, and work backwards to the fuel tank until you find the blockage or fault.



no luck
ran under own power for 300 meters then the same thing {smaller backfire,,pop realy} then comes to a chugging stop , wont start immediately {10 secs} then starts but stalls out, 30 secs to a minuit and it starts but dies under power, yet will idle and rev freely while stationary.
only other thing that springs to mind is that the air filter oil bowl is of a different year car{has the steel mesh folded onto the upper part, as in you cant get it off. perhaps its cutting off the air

im now bald.....

[mfc]

and correct I think you are....
just drained the sediment bowel {clean} and it wont refill , pump just keeps ticking. I get about 3 mm of fuel in the bottom of it and that's all..
the pump seemed to be ok as its never given more than 3 to 6 clicks on turning the key{6 if its been sitting a few days 2 or 3 if its started each day}
so ill start from sediment filter back to tank, then pump flow rate
{any idea what the pump flow rate should be??}

aint it alwayse the way...start at the wrong end ignition then its fuel

[wrinklearthur]

Yep! The story of my life, always starting at the wrong end first.

Now from your description, I assume that you have a SU style diaphragm pump?
If the fuel line obstruction was on the delivery or carby side the pump would stop quickly with pressure in it's body.

With an obstruction or a air leak on the pickup side , the pump wouldn't make pressure and keeps pumping.
.

[bee utey]

If you have abnormal fuel pump operation, why did you ignore it? Fuel is important! Without knowing anything about your pump, it should be able to deliver the worst case fuel consumption you can imagine, plus a bit more. So 1 litre per minute would be a figure to start your back-of-the-envelope calulations at.

Don't worry, you're not alone, a friend of mine has an ancient Hiace camper, and in his wisdom he fitted a cheap plastic inline filter to the inlet side of his electric fuel pump. More filters must be better, s'true?? Anyway he used a heavy duty hose clamp to seriously crush the hose inlet of the poor plastic filter and it therefore leaked as much air as a fly screen door in a hurricane. And his fuel pump was HAMMERING LOUDLY but that wasn't worth noting because, you know, he had a Theory he needed to run past me. So I removed the offending filter and it's been good ever since.

So the point is, check that the hose from the tank pickup to the fuel pump inlet is free of dodgy filters, cracks, air leaks etc and then blow some air back into the tank pickup to make sure it is clear. You may need to clean your fuel tank out if it has been sitting around in the damp air for a while. There may even be rust in there and you may need a tank lining product like Red-Kote to seal the inner surface.

[mfc]

"If you have abnormal fuel pump operation, why did you ignore it?"

I didn't I only found out this morning on draining the sediment trap and it didn't refill ,It had been running ok on the clapped out old engine so had been thinking it was an ignition issue{coil condenser timing} blockage from dirt in tank ...also no filter on fuel pickup pipe..
then ill check fuel flow to carby ...

Arthur , blowing back to tank freed a blockage ,so ill drain/clean the tank and try and find some filter for the pickup then check flow at carbie
anyone know who sells red kote? specialists or repco and the likes?

ps bee utey not meening to be snarkie this issue has only been around 4 days

ps authur it will be a nice change to be hanging over the right hand guard not the left

[wrinklearthur]

then ill check fuel flow to carby ... ----- Arthur , blowing back to tank freed a blockage ,so ill drain/clean the tank and try and find some filter for the pickup then check flow at carbie

Drop a strong magnet inside the tank that will grab most of the loose rust, with the pickup, a fine brass gauze filter is what should be there, then the fuel line pipe goes up to the sediment bowl, things to check there is another flat gauze filter inside the underneath of the filter head and the inside of the fuel tap.

From the sediment filter up to the pump, there is a couple of blockage points in the pump, where the adaptors are fitted to the body, inside there are two flat valves, they can get rubbish under their seats and another gauze filter accessed from the fitting under the pump body. All of that is able to be checked without pulling the pumps diaphragm seal apart.


---- anyone know who sells Redkote? specialists or Repco and the likes?

I would only pull the tank out if the bottom was weeping, but if you need RedKote I found some on eHay, bit on the expensive side though, I am going to try a suggestion that plumbers PCV glue works as well, but I am yet to experiment with this.


ps authur it will be a nice change to be hanging over the right hand guard not the left :D

[drifter]

Instead of RedKote I used KBS - found it at the paint place I go to when I want paint mixed.

The price (on a litre by litre basis) was approximately the same (around $120 to $130) but what endeared me to KBS is that they have a 'motorcycle' kit which is designed for a smaller tank.

Anyways, it was well under $100 for the kit and, as you end up pouring most of it out and dumping it, the price fit my wallet a lot better. I still got 100% coverage inside the tank.

I couldn't see the sense in buying a product that, after being opened, had a small shelf life as it would only be wasted unless I had several tanks to do at once.

KBS fit my needs perfectly.

[mfc]

good idea re magnet
scince the bung wont budge ive had to syphon/mop out the tank,for a stop gap im going to try and make up a filter out of a brass carbie one.
it looks like the top half of the tank has a powdery white scale {first time its had more than 10 litres in it was Thursday last...no rust to speak of just some sludge. I think as I filled it its come loose .i knew about the punp filter and the fuel trap one but not the other 2 {parts book out} hopefuly scince the carbie one is spotless it didn't get past the fuel trap {when blown out it was blocked}
ill leave the tank coating as its not leaking and dry it out and vacume/blow/magnet it out .....or just perhaps the bolts on the tank are not seized.

[chazza]

I am going to try a suggestion that plumbers PCV glue works as well, but I am yet to experiment with this.

:D

I have started experimenting with it since Back In suggested it. It worked faultlessly on an old rusty tin with petrol in it for about a week and then diesel. I am half way through doing my S3 tank, which needs another go because I missed bits inside,

Cheers Charlie

[mfc]

all through youre sugestions Arthur. just need to wipe out/vacume out the remaining powder{kinda looks like white talk scale} there was only a little grit{mud id say} sitting in the hollow the pick up sits in..
ill do the flow test tonight and if I get near a litre ill bolt it all up.
Trouble now is im scared to drive it....covertly that is...the missus is home tomorrow night so ill get her to trail me in the wee small hours...
just gotta check the timing again, fix a blinker and horn, rebolt down the floor and top up sterring box and swivel housings..only two small leaks so far{20 to start with} one is rocker cover but I feel its getting to mutch oil because theres no metering plug in the banjo bolt{ordered from blighty tonight} and a seep from the g box that has'nt left a drip in 2 months
I also need to order a fuel pump filter as there is no bottom one..
cross youre fingers
regards mark

[mfc]

do you have to prime the pump ?
it seems to pump freely from container to container but wont lift from tank..99% shure the 2 lines{tank to sediment filter and sed f to pump}are hole free ..only thing I can think oif is that theres a leak at a join or a pin hole in the fuel tank lift or........pump rubber that wont alow it to lift that high..
any thoughts?

[series1buff]

do you have to prime the pump ?
it seems to pump freely from container to container but wont lift from tank..99% shure the 2 lines{tank to sediment filter and sed f to pump}are hole free ..only thing I can think oif is that theres a leak at a join or a pin hole in the fuel tank lift or........pump rubber that wont alow it to lift that high..
any thoughts?

The pump is self priming .

One thing you can try is, holding a finger over the pump outlet and see how the pump reacts , it should stop . And put your finger over the inlet, you should feel a sucking on your finger .

The SU pumps can be buggers of things . Morris Minors used them too .

You may have to fit a new diaphram, the diaphram can become hard and lose its flexibility . The best place to buy a kit is from GOWER and LEE in the UK .

[mfc]

it dose with 2 containers {stop} but not when pumping air
ill re check for leaks between tank and pump or run a hose to a container on the ground just to see if it lifts it...pumping with a can in the engine bay it pours fuel through..

im down youre way on Thursday , if youre around I can bring that hood down for you to mesure

[mfc]

fuel lines back together filters clean...flow rate around a litre in 60 seconds .
when parked overnight it will click 6 times ... if its sat for 5 odd hrs it clicks once perhaps twice ,stop and start no click...far as I know{not a lot} that sounds like it should, what ya recon?
runs and revs as it used to standing in driveway ,but cant test it under load until I have the tow wife at hand.
ill let you know how it goes.
ps no inlet or exhaust manifold leaks ,possibly the bad backfires on the first run were a combination of to advanced ignition loose manifold bolts and buggered gasket.. post ignition ?

[Xtreme]

Sounds like you might have it beaten.
Looking forward to receiving a positive report from the road test. ;)

[rover-56]

"I would only pull the tank out if the bottom was weeping, but if you need RedKote I found some on eHay, bit on the expensive side though, I am going to try a suggestion that plumbers PCV glue works as well, but I am yet to experiment with this."

I used fibreglass gel coat, from a boat place 30 yrs ago, 2 part, very thin, runs like water.

It is still there, still no leaks.

Terry

[mfc]

Sounds like you might have it beaten.
Looking forward to receiving a positive report from the road test. ;)

might need dutch courage to just run up the driveway lol
I may take it for a run tonight if the tow womans up 4 it...basically it only needs to run well for a couple of blocks to get club rego then I can relax and sort it at lesure
thanks to all who imputed ideas thoughts etc

[123rover50]

I have started experimenting with it since Back In suggested it. It worked faultlessly on an old rusty tin with petrol in it for about a week and then diesel. I am half way through doing my S3 tank, which needs another go because I missed bits inside,

Cheers Charlie

Hi Charlie. I understood that the PVC glue is not actually a glue as such but a solvent that partially dissolves the PVC. I cant see how the solvent on its own would seal rust. I seem to remember some PVC was added to make the sealer but I am getting a bit fuzzy on this older stuff:(
Keith

[chazza]

[QUOTE=123rover50;1890603]Hi Charlie. I understood that the PVC glue is not actually a glue as such but a solvent that partially dissolves the PVC. I cant see how the solvent on its own would seal rust. /QUOTE]

G'day Keith,
Whatever it is, it appears to work! I always like to do tests on recommended products and see whether it does what the manufacturer says. Ian is correct - it works well! Try it yourself in the shed,

Cheers Charlie

[123rover50]

So just the solvent/glue without any PVC in it?

[chazza]

So just the solvent/glue without any PVC in it?

I thinned the glue with acetone as Ian recommended, but it seemed a bit unnecessary - the glue I bought was very runny anyway - next time I will use straight glue unadulterated with anything else,

Cheers Charlie

[Brad110]

Which flavour are you using, I have a red and a blue glue?

I am accustomed to the blue.

Is this the stuff you are using?

[wrinklearthur]

My experimentation would consist of, a collection of tin can's with their bottom perforated on the inside with a four inch nail and then washed out with acetone.

I would then apply various mixtures and neat applications of PCV glue and epoxies, to see which looks to be the best for the job.

Points to consider; would be ease of application, cost of sealant, quantity required to coat a surface, durability of completed surface, safety issues such as toxic fumes and dangers to eyes and skin.

disclaimer; please note, no animals or subhumans will be used in the course of these experiments.
.

[mfc]

id suggest that the white scale in my fuel tank is a dodgy repair job...the fuel blockages im getting/ had are being caused by it being suspended in the fuel it dosent sit on the bottom like rust or mud/grit..
unless someone can explain the white stuff ,id red kote/ bike one or try it on someone elses tank :twisted:

I know a few subhumans that would most likely benefit from this sort of experiment...it couldent bugger them up any more than they are now

[chazza]

Which flavour are you using, I have a red and a blue glue?

I am accustomed to the blue.

Is this the stuff you are using?

Yes. Methyl-ethyl-ketone - nasty stuff even for sub-humans, so I wore my respirator; had all the doors open and sent the grand-dog inside to be with Granma, in case a drip got in her eyes.

I will do a report when I have finished; I think the whole excursion has cost me about $20 so far. How much does Redkote cost?

Cheers Charlie

[wrinklearthur]

I think the whole excursion has cost me about $20 so far. How much does Redkote cost?

Hi Charlie

Costs $65 plus AU $12.90 postage off ePay.

Ref; RED-KOTE DRY FUEL TANK LINER REDKOTE RED COAT | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/RED-KOTE-DRY-FUEL-TANK-LINER-REDKOTE-RED-COAT-/220763467393#ht_2101wt_1186)
.

[slug_burner]

Which flavour are you using, I have a red and a blue glue?

I am accustomed to the blue.

Is this the stuff you are using?

The red stuff is usually a cleaner and te blue is a glue for low pressure applications. There is also green glue, used on high pressure pipes such as drinking water/pump pressures.

[isuzutoo-eh]

As Charlie pointed out, the blue plumbers glue is usually methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), and a filler. Straight MEK is a colourless liquid with lower viscosity than water. Nasty stuff, causes cancer in Californians.

[mfc]

things seem to have settled down.....a combination of 2 loose bolts causing the post ignition combined with to much advance.Different coil. Fuel starvation due to scale in tank and air being drawn into the fuel line between the glass filters seal and grit under the non return valve on the fuel pump.
Still waiting on the metering plug for the head oil line so its sucking oil down the valve guides and smoking like a bu@@er..
Has anyone made up a valve tool to compress the valve springs once the valve is held closed with compressed air? {head in place}
picture if possible?

regards mark

[wrinklearthur]

Has anyone made up a valve tool to compress the valve springs once the valve is held closed with compressed air? {head in place}
picture if possible?

Hi mark

I made one by gutting an old spark plug and brazing a air hose fitting in the top, worked like a treat .
.

[chazza]

I made a tool the same as Arthur's but I haven't used it for that job - I used it to test for burnt exhaust valves; feeling for air at the exhaust pipe.

An alternative to air to hold the valve in place, is a length of synthetic cord such as used on chainsaw pull-ropes. Feed the end into the cylinder until enough has gone in and then turn the crank by hand, until the piston jams against the cord and hopefully the valve-head.

I say hopefully, because the S1 piston crown isn't flat, so it may not want to play the game,

Cheers Charlie

[mfc]

well no backfiring or poping through carbie, sounds smooth{smother than it was}
oil pressure sit on 50 55 psi at idle and at the moment 60psi at 30 mph in 4th gear....still smoking but new rings/big ends valves etc and missing the oil metering plug in the head still id guess it would.
i might make it to the saftey check tomorow after all,and put the smoking down to running in etc after all its only got 10 miles on it.

have some ford valve umbrella seals arriving tomorow and the metering plug on order from odl blighty.

guess ill decide in the morning weather to give it a go or wait...

thanks everyone for youre help
mark

[wrinklearthur]

oil pressure sit on 50 55 psi at idle and at the moment 60psi at 30 mph in 4th gear

IMHO that oil pressure is a tab too high, might be a good idea to reduce the viscosity of your oil a bit.


still smoking but new rings/big ends valves etc and missing the oil metering plug in the head still id guess it would.

I wonder if a split pin would have closed that hole enough to reduce the flow.


have some ford valve umbrella seals arriving tomorrow and the metering plug on order from odl blighty.

[mfc]

the book said 55 to 65 at 30 mph..the 50 at idle was a concern though all i could find was the "over 20 psi at idle}.. What do you have yourse set at? I asume minimum is set by oil viscosity

the oil may be a bit heavy its penrite classis medium{the old engine needed it so was on hand}, should go to light.
I was thinking it will change with the metering plug in anyhow{psi} as the feed to head gets reduced...
anyhow its a 15 min road test if it can put down the smoking for that long i think it will pass..

[123rover50]

My book says 35 to 40 PSI at 30 MPH. Have you tried adjusting it with the oil pressure relief valve on the side of the block?
Operation A/24 .

[mfc]

hmmmm 2L 1955 engine opperation AO/6 check that at least 20 psi at idle. adjust to 55psi to 65 psi at 30 mph thats from the black fronted workshop manual...1960 second edition{ pdf}
where the old engine needed thicker oil this one likley needs thinner..
ps it settles on 40psi at idle when warm and just under 60 psi at 30mph in 4th gear on flat road{ajusted with releif valve}

So different engine{1600 or siamese?} or typo in my manual????? {ps its a 1957 engine}
regards mark

[123rover50]

Yours could be right. Mine is 1954/55 1st edition Jan 54 so they may have changed it.
Keith

[mfc]

ill try and find another version{got a hard copy of original coming by post}
...Yourse being 54 it might be the early 2 L engine although the illustration in mine is of a canister style oil filter {older style siamese 2L ??}.

anyhow its bucketing down so the guy aint going to want to drive it far lol...im thinking get it passed then work on the oil flow to head and clarify the oil pressure info differences in the books..and probably change to a lighter oil real soon.

[rover-56]

oil pressure sit on 50 55 psi at idle and at the moment 60psi at 30 mph in 4th gear..mark

Arthur, my '55 runs at about those pressures, always has, I use 20w50 oil

Cheers,
Terry

[wrinklearthur]

Regards the high oil pressure, I would be watching out for hydraulic lock.

Hydraulic Lock of the engines lubricating oil occurs as the speed of the engine raises, the oil pump then is delivering more oil volume, the extra oil can not then pass through the oil galleys and it's relief valve fast enough, with that the oil pressure suddenly spikes.
This is presented as a sudden load on the drive train that drives the oil pump and usually breaks a tooth from a gear or shears the driving pin from the shaft driving the pump.

I have seen more instances of hydraulic lock than I would wish for;
With a McCormick Farmall Super A tractor, the winding up of a hydraulic hoist relief valve so supposedly increasing the tractor's lifting capacity, resulted in the oil pump locking up breaking the valve timing gear that drove the hoist pump.

With a Massey Ferguson 194-4, the fitting by the dealer of extra remote controls to the bank resulted in decreased flow through the system and that resulted in the hydraulic pump blowing the end plate off the hoist pump. That problem was rectified by fitting another higher capacity relief valve near the pump between the inlet and outlet.

Just recently I have been given a ex army six cylinder 2.6 Land Rover engine, it had the drive gear to the oil pump and distributor broken, looking for a cause I found the oil cooler lines had been damaged, kinking the pipelines, this would have restricted the overall oil flow and then loaded the oil pump breaking that gear, it most likely could have happened when the engine was revved when the oil was cold.

At least, I suggest to ease your relief valve setting to ensure the flow is always adequate, that relief valve could have been screwed up on the worn engine to stop bearing rattle and now with work done may need resetting.
.

[wrinklearthur]

I would check my workshop manuals for the correct setting, as there would be difference in oil pressures between the 2 litre siamese bore, with it's bypass oil filter and the 2 litre spread bore with a full flow oil filter.
.

[mfc]

Yea but getting different figures from different manuals...my hard copy should be here tomorrow . It's being tested( club rego) then back to the shed till I sort it out,,

[mfc]

Well im legal now..club plates in hand .
Ill wait for the banjo bolt metering plug before buggerizing around in it.. if the info in my pdf manual is acurate the pressures fine, but im not silly{hmmm????} enough to beleave only one l r workshop manual, ill wait till ive got the hard copy to arrive.

[wrinklearthur]

Well im legal now..club plates in hand .

Congratulations! :spudnikparty:

[mfc]

thanks to all you guys help and past posts sir authur ,still got paint and asorted things thatll be breaking ,but thats the game :p

[rover-56]

Regards the high oil pressure, I would be watching out for hydraulic lock.
.

Interesting - something I have not really thought about. My paper manual gives the pressure at 55-65 psi at 30 mph, but it looks like it is describing the '48 to '54 engines with the bypass filter.
Mine has the full flow so I assume it is the spread bore. can't find any reference to that in this manual, only 50 to 60 psi for the diesel.

The little bus has now done 290k miles with no mishaps (and I have had it up to 5000 rpm a couple of times (it is balanced), so I think I will leave the relief valve as it is.

Thanks Arthur.

Cheers,
Terry

[mfc]

yea im thinking the siamese engines like the illustration you describe have a lower oil presure than the canister 1955 on jobs .that photo confused me to ..im guessing the figures from 123 rover50' s 1954 manual {30 35 psi ??} is for the kind with the canister on the pasenger side.while the 55 65 psi is for the latter engines with the paper filter, isnt there a difference in bearing size {big end} between the two as well?

[rover-56]

hmmmm 2L 1955 engine opperation AO/6 check that at least 20 psi at idle. adjust to 55psi to 65 psi at 30 mph thats from the black fronted workshop manual...1960 second edition{ pdf}
where the old engine needed thicker oil this one likley needs thinner..
ps it settles on 40psi at idle when warm and just under 60 psi at 30mph in 4th gear on flat road{ajusted with releif valve}

So different engine{1600 or siamese?} or typo in my manual????? {ps its a 1957 engine}
regards mark

My manual is the October 1963 reprint of the March 1960 edition (pale green cover), and the Operation AO/6 wording is exactly the same as your pdf. Engine specs show the only difference is bore size, no different listings for bearing size for 1.6 and 2.0 engines.

Were some earlier 2.0 engines siamese bore?

Terry

[mfc]

yea up to 54 i recall

[mfc]

my 1960 hard copy agrees rover 56

[rover-56]

Thats good, doesn't answer the question though, does it?
Terry

[mfc]

no it dosent ,im taking 55 to 65psi as the setting untill someone comes up with a 1955 on manual for the new engine. and 35 to 45 psi for siameese 2L engines 1954 and back with canister oil filter on releif valve side.
any one know what the 1600 engine was set at?

[chazza]

any one know what the 1600 engine was set at?

55 to 65 psi @ 30 mph in top gear, according to the "48/'58 manual.

Be aware that the restricting bolt in the rocker shaft, will increase the pressure when you fit it,

Cheers Charlie

[incisor]

55 to 65 psi @ 30 mph in top gear, according to the "48/'58 manual.

Be aware that the restricting bolt in the rocker shaft, will increase the pressure when you fit it,

Cheers Charlie

theoretically, it should increase the oil flow to the bottom end if it is low and that may increase the oil pressure if it is low.

but not increase the pressure if it is already good and if the relief valve is set correctly... 65psi should be the max i believe.

[mfc]

yea i realy have to wait for the head oil line metering plug to arrive before i can be shure of the setting i have at the moment {just under 60 psi} less oil into the inlet rockers should stop the oil being sucked into the inlet via valves, the top end is literaly being flooded, up near if not over the valve guides...i put the new o rings down to the smoke being acceptable at the moment.

[rover-56]

That restrictor seems to be very important, because drainage down through the pushrod holes is a bit restricted.

I was reminded of this some years ago when I fitted a positive ventilation valve in place of the rocker cover vent, which caused an upflow of air through the pushrod holes.

First drive and I laid a smoke screen down the length of the main street, lost 2 litres of oil into the intake manifold.

Terry

[123rover50]

no it dosent ,im taking 55 to 65psi as the setting untill someone comes up with a 1955 on manual for the new engine. and 35 to 45 psi for siameese 2L engines 1954 and back with canister oil filter on releif valve side.
any one know what the 1600 engine was set at?

You are right. 1600 same as Siamese 2000. 40lb at 30 mph.
From TP/138A March 1951 Page A18.
Keith

[incisor]

manual 4220 1958

A0-5

2 litre motor

55-65lb/sq.in @ 30mph


1954/55 workshop manual TP165A

A-10

supplement 1

1955 models @ 2000rpm 55-65lb/sq.in


1955 Publication no. TP/171/C Part No. 4041

Instruction Manual

Oil Presure 55 to 65 lb./sq.in @ 30mph in top gear with warm engine

[chazza]

theoretically, it should increase the oil flow to the bottom end if it is low and that may increase the oil pressure if it is low. Agreed

but not increase the pressure if it is already good and if the relief valve is set correctly Why not?

Pressure can be defined as a resistance to flow. If the pressure is "already good" with no metering-plug, then it will be increased when the oil has to be pushed through a restrictive hole, if the relief-valve remains unchanged.

Whether the increase in pressure is measurable on the gauge, remains to be seen.

[incisor]

why not?

because if the relief valve was already doing it's job if pressure was already at the max, therefore ensuring there would be no pressure increase, because it was being relieved, if it was already doing its job, was the point i was making.

too many coffees today .....

[mfc]

no increase or decrease at 30 mph in 4th with plug in but a 3 to 5 psi increase in idle psi {45 to 50ish}
un altered atm but ill tamper with it over the next few days and try and get it up to 60ish psi at 30mph {its sitting on 58ish psi atm same as before plug }

main difference is the high level of oil in inlet rocker droped just below rocker gasket and valve guides rather than over and being drawn into valves and seeping out the rocker gasket on the inlet side...

[wrinklearthur]

The compromise here is the balance between oil usage and keeping the engines head cool under extreme hot working conditions.
.

[incisor]

sounds like the relief valve is working nicely

2psi would be within the +/- of the gauge in all probability