Intercooler upgrade?

[Disco EMU]

Hi Guys

My 2000 Td5 manual has the TRS chip and EGT gauage installed but I'm still concerned about EGT's when towing ... I always do my best to keep it below 600 degrees. (Normally around 300-500 when towing on the open road but climbs really quickly with any substantial hill) My understanding is that the bigger intercooler from a D2a will make a difference ... but how much?

TRS want $440 (delivered) for a second hand D2a intercooler that comes cleaned and with a 3 month warranty.

Other options on ebay include

Allard - Allard Landrover Discovery TD5 Intercooler Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Allard-Landrover-Discovery-TD5-Intercooler-Kit-/181120661521?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a2ba1f811&_uhb=1#ht_2033wt_954)

Allisport - AlliSport Land Rover Discovery TD5 Intercooler Kit (manual gearbox version) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AlliSport-Land-Rover-Discovery-TD5-Intercooler-Kit-manual-gearbox-version-/330885483612?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4d0a4fcc5c&_uhb=1#ht_3076wt_952)

DLS - LAND ROVER DISCOVERY 2 MAN TD5 PERFORMANCE INTERCOOLER | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-2-MAN-TD5-PERFORMANCE-INTERCOOLER-/370528708900?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item56453b6924&_uhb=1#ht_2212wt_1186)

McDonalds - Land Rover Discovery 2 Automatic TD5 Performance Intercooler | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-2-Automatic-TD5-Performance-Intercooler-/181095174280?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a2a1d1088&_uhb=1#ht_2288wt_952)

At around twice the price ... are the new ones worth the money? Any thoughts or other options?

Thanks

Craig

[OffTrack]

Have a look at Paddockspares:

Performance Intercooler Discovery TD5 Manual (http://www.paddockspares.com/performance-intercooler-discovery-td5-manual.html)

These are made by Serck Motorsport, who were (and possibly still are) making the Td5 Alive intercoolers. At $430AU plus shipping (guestimating $500 all up) I reckon you'd have to have rocks in your head to buy a second hand D2a intercooler for $440.

cheers
Paul

[Disco EMU]

Have a look at Paddockspares:

These are made by Serck Motorsport, who were (and possibly still are) making the Td5 Alive intercoolers. At $430AU plus shipping (guestimating $500 all up) I reckon you'd have to have rocks in your head to buy a second hand D2a intercooler for $440.

cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul ... yep just sent Paddock an email for costs. I figured $440 was a bit rich.

Craig

[Yorkie]

think i paid about $300 from bruce davis for a second hand d2a cooler, he fitted aswell.

[OffTrack]

Thanks Paul ... yep just sent Paddock an email for costs. I figured $440 was a bit rich.

Craig

They go for $200-250 on ebay when they show up there. $250 is top dollar. Some have suggested they are only worth paying $100 for, but there is a demand for them which drives up the price.

This is the Serck product page for the manual intercooler:

High Performance Cooling by Serck Motorsport (http://www.serckservicesmotorsport.co.uk/landrover-discovery/landrover-discovery-td5-manual-performance-aluminium-intercooler-2178868-410964-794468.php)

The list price is £430+vat. I'm always surprised at how cheap Paddocks manage to sell stuff - they must have paper thin margins on some items. That said Td5 Alive had the Auto intercooler on sale before xmas for the same price as Paddock is selling the Serck intercoolers, so there is clearly a fairly substantial markup on them.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

There is this note on the Td5 Alive site for the Td5 manual intercooler:


Suitable for all models with or without air conditioning. Please note that some non european models have a transmission oil cooler mounted beneath the intercooler. If yours has this, then please select the Automatic Transmission version.


You might want to double check with Paddock on fitment before placing an order.

[Disco EMU]

think i paid about $300 from bruce davis for a second hand d2a cooler, he fitted aswell.

Thanks Yorkie!

Did that price include installation and did it have the desired effect on the cooling?

Craig

[Yorkie]

i had some other stuff done from memory, was few years ago.
give them a call, cant harm.

not sure what effect it had on cooling, have only had egt monitor for about a month. :)

[iPom]

I paid $100 for my D2a intercooler, bought off eBay. As Paul says, anything more than that is robbery in my opinion as well. I will be selling mine in the near future so keep an eye out in the markets.
Dave

[twr7cx]

I spent two months trying to sell a D2a intercooler on here for $200.00 and no takers. Sold it on eBay and a member on here purchased it for more than that...

The D2a intercooler is a worthy upgrade, however, the aftermarket intercoolers are a better upgrade too if you can afford it. I highly recommend the unit from Alive Tuning, I found their price including freight from the UK to be the best value.

[OffTrack]

The D2a intercooler is a worthy upgrade, however, the aftermarket intercoolers are a better upgrade too if you can afford it. I highly recommend the unit from Alive Tuning, I found their price including freight from the UK to be the best value.

I'm not sure if Alive are having intercoolers made to their own specs, but they are being made by Serck Service Motorsports as the product pix show.

Discovery Td5 Performance Intercooler (http://www.alivetuning.com/alive-boutique/index.php?route=product/product&path=61_64&product_id=91)

TerraFirma also sell Serck intercoolers under their brand:
https://www.terrafirma4x4.com/product_detail.php?prod=TF184&grp=362
These go for £380 ex VAT.

I guess you'd need to put them side by side to compare dimensions to be 100% sure, but even so the Paddocks pricing on the Serck intercoolers looks to be a steal.

cheers
Paul

[twr7cx]

Yes, the Alive Tuning ones are just the Serek models. At the time that I ordered Alive were the cheapest when freight was taken into account.

[Red90]

I always do my best to keep it below 600 degrees.
There is no real reason to limit it to 600. 700 is perfectly safe.

With a TD5, the ECU will automatically reduce fueling as the intake air temperature rises. A larger intercooler will give more power, but should not really affect EGTs unless the ECU programming has not been done properly.

[Disco EMU]

A larger intercooler will give more power, but should not really affect EGTs unless the ECU programming has not been done properly.

Thanx Red90!
I'm not after more power ... I thought that it was just a by-product of a cooler engine ???
Maybe I need a re-think before spending $500 plus on a bigger intercooler 😳.

[OffTrack]

There is plenty of evidence that a larger intercooler = lower egts. Strangy posted up his findings on the impact of an intercooler on egts with a trs chip installed a while back. There was a substantial drop in measured EGTs with a larger intercooler.

Cheers
Paul

[Dougal]

There is plenty of evidence that a larger intercooler = lower egts. Strangy posted up his findings on the impact of an intercooler on egts with a trs chip installed a while back. There was a substantial drop in measured EGTs with a larger intercooler.

Cheers
Paul

If fuelling is already against some other limit, then more intercooling will lower EGT's for the same power and fuel.

But most people combine intercooler upgrades with fuelling upgrades (chip or tune) to keep the EGT's where they were under full load but producing a lot more power and torque.

If your engine is limiting fuel based on air-flow or air temperatures, then more intercooling could get you more power with no other mods.

[OffTrack]

Dougal

Thanks for the explanation.

When you say "keep EGTs where they were" in relation to chipping do you mean the EGTs with chip + upgraded intercooler will be closer to those seen with standard map + stock intercooler than chip + stock intercooler?

My understanding has been that chipped diesels tend to run rich under heavy load. The intercooler reduces the temp of the intake air increasing the density of air drawn into the cylinder allowing a leaner fuel mix and cooler combustion temps. The limit in this case would be insufficient oxygen to allow a lean burn. Not sure how correct that is however.

Cheers
Paul

[Dougal]

Dougal

Thanks for the explanation.

When you say "keep EGTs where they were" in relation to chipping do you mean the EGTs with chip + upgraded intercooler will be closer to those seen with standard map + stock intercooler than chip + stock intercooler?

My understanding has been that chipped diesels tend to run rich under heavy load. The intercooler reduces the temp of the intake air increasing the density of air drawn into the cylinder allowing a leaner fuel mix and cooler combustion temps. The limit in this case would be insufficient oxygen to allow a lean burn. Not sure how correct that is however.

Cheers
Paul

How hot they run chipped depends on how good the tuner who wrote the chip was.
Ideally they run safe maximum fuel/air ratios and limit on that. So when you can crank up the boost and provide more intercooling, they will automatically let fuel increase and keep EGT safe.
Also, on the other side. At altitude, in higher temps or lower boost it will reduce fuelling, keeping EGT's safe and protecting the engine.

It all comes down to how good the tuner is.

[OffTrack]

Dougal,

thanks for this input.

I'm beginning to understand a bit more about what you are saying, so I appreciate your patience.

I had seen comments elsewhere to the effect that good tuners work primarily with the AFR and your comment's have made a few mental connections click into place.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

Strangy's tests are here:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/133503-td5-alive-i-c.html

Rereading the test it seems the intercooler alone made a relatively small impact on EGT's -- 40-50°C The combination of Td5 Alive IC plus boost upped from 1.2 bar to 1.4 bar made a substantial difference.

The missing test in this was the standard IC with boost increased from 1.2 bar to 1.4 bar. It could be worth trying this prior to outlaying the money for an alloy intercooler?

cheers
Paul

[Disco EMU]

First quote has come in from TD5Alive for their Serck intercooler

520 pounds delivered to Sydney ... or $767. :blink:

Seems like a lot of cash for 50 degrees or so cooler ... :unsure:

[twr7cx]

First quote has come in from TD5Alive for their Serck intercooler

520 pounds delivered to Sydney ... or $767. :blink:

Seems like a lot of cash for 50 degrees or so cooler ... :unsure:

Not too bad, it's probably $200.00 cheaper still than buying locally.

[Yorkie]

how do you tell the difference between d2 and d2a coolers?.

Land Rover Discovery 2 TD5 Intercooler | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-2-TD5-Intercooler-/261133876294?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccccabc46&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1133)

:)

[OffTrack]

how do you tell the difference between d2 and d2a coolers?.

Land Rover Discovery 2 TD5 Intercooler | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-2-TD5-Intercooler-/261133876294?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccccabc46&_uhb=1#ht_500wt_1133)

:)

"D2a" intercooler is a misnomer. They are an EU3 intercooler and were fitted from 2002MY onwards.

Check this post for pics of the difference:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/87781-d2a-intercooler-into-d2.html#post1067291

cheers
Paul

[Redback]

I too found that it was a combination of things that made the biggest difference, the intercooler alone only had a small impact on lower EGTs and power, but when I put silicon hoses, a boost box and upped the boost, and a larger exhaust, that's when it made the biggest difference.

I went from getting 700 to 750 + on a regular basis when touring and climbing hills, to 600 to 650 as a max temp, depending on how steep the hill was, the bonus from this was better fuel economy with the lower EGTs and I found I wasn't lifting the throttle as much to lower the EGTs and that I could hold the throttle on for longer, this helped to hold the car at a good speed up hills.

The other thing I noticed was that my driving style had changed, I was driving using the EGT gauge and not the Tacho, I think this was a big influence on the better fuel economy too.

Baz.

[Disco EMU]

Final quote has come through from Paddock spares:

Performance Intercooler Discovery TD5 Manual (http://www.paddockspares.com/performance-intercooler-discovery-td5-manual.html)

$650 landed to Sydney.:eek:

or the standard intercooler replacement for $375.

Hmmm ... not convinced it's the nest way to spend $650.:no2:

[Redback]

Final quote has come through from Paddock spares:

Performance Intercooler Discovery TD5 Manual (http://www.paddockspares.com/performance-intercooler-discovery-td5-manual.html)

$650 landed to Sydney.:eek:

or the standard intercooler replacement for $375.

Hmmm ... not convinced it's the nest way to spend $650.:no2:

$275 difference in price, that is a pretty cheap upgrade, I paid $1050 for my intercooler.

You need to ask yourself, am I going to keep the Disco long enough?

If yes, you need to organise an intercooler fitting BBQ:beer:

Baz.

PS, give Bundalene a PM, he might have a D2a intercooler at a good price.

[OffTrack]

Final quote has come through from Paddock spares:

Performance Intercooler Discovery TD5 Manual (http://www.paddockspares.com/performance-intercooler-discovery-td5-manual.html)

$650 landed to Sydney.:eek:

or the standard intercooler replacement for $375.

Hmmm ... not convinced it's the nest way to spend $650.:no2:

£295 = $436. So you are saying that Paddock have quoted $214 to ship an alloy intercooler?

Turner Engineering managed to ship 31Kg of Td5 cylinder head from UK to Melbourne in less than a week for $220. That would suggest there is something seriously wrong with that quote.

For a reality check: Rimmer Bros. show the courier shipping charge for an alloy intercooler as £62.83//$93.00AU.

I bet Paddocks have quoted with 20% VAT applied despite it being an export order. £295 + £70 shipping + 20% VAT = $650AU. Less the VAT it would be $540 landed.

cheers
Paul

[Disco EMU]

£295 = $436. So you are saying that Paddock have quoted $214 to ship an alloy intercooler?

295 for the intercooler + 141 shipping = 436 pounds. Shipping for the standard intercooler was only 70 pounds.

Or ... as of right now $650 Au

I may send them another email to confirm.

[Disco EMU]

Confirmed!

Here's the email they sent me.

"I've just quoted for exactly the same intercooler for a customer in NSW.

The weights and dimensions of the standard PCM100220 intercooler are: 23 x 26 x 82cm 3.7kg, whereas the performance intercooler is 88 x 43 x 33cm 12kg."

[OffTrack]

Having a look on the LRDirect website they list the TerraFirma TF184 (which is also made by Serck) as having a volumetric shipping weight of 31Kg. So it the size of the packaging rather than the 12kg that is the killer.

[Disco EMU]

For those interested I received a quote from Rimmer Bros for a Britpart Stage1 performance intercooler for 315 + 68 pounds for postage.

Total cost Au = $560

Performance Intercooler - Britpart DA4632 at www.rimmerbros.co.uk (http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-PCM100220UR-BP-MAN--pmid-1157--SelectedCurrency-1)

[joel0407]

Did you order the Brit Part cooler, mate?

Some Brit Part Parts are rubbish (mostly there rubber parts) but other are equally as good as other brands and still far cheaper.

I'm just wondering what their intercoolers are like. Thinking of upgrading.

Happy Days

[sierrafery]

i have a britpart on mine...been there for 4 years now without probs...my oppinion too is that solid metal bits are good enough from them, theyr problem is when the parts include moving/rotating, rubber, or electrical components

[Disco EMU]

Did you order the Brit Part cooler, mate?

Thinking of upgrading.

Happy Days

No ... didn't order it as with my TRS Stage 1 remap and a straight through exhaust along with an EGT gauge, I didn't feel the Disco needed the extra cooling or power.

Still, for those looking at pricey 2nd hand D2a intercoolers ... seem like reasonable value.

[DiscoDB]

Did you order the Brit Part cooler, mate?

Some Brit Part Parts are rubbish (mostly there rubber parts) but other are equally as good as other brands and still far cheaper.

I'm just wondering what their intercoolers are like. Thinking of upgrading.

Happy Days

Can't comment on the BritPart IC, but upgrading is certainly something to consider. If you are prepared to relocate the transmission oil cooler then you can get an even larger (taller) IC in. Upgrading my EU3 IC to an Allisport IC for a manual completely changed the way the engine responds even under partial throttle and low rpm conditions. I have no data to support this statement but it sure feels better. Combine with either a remap or an electronic tuning box the changes are even more outstanding.

[Tombie]

Also keep in mind the performance of different ICs due to fin design, core efficiency etc will have a bearing on how the benefit is realised.

Not all cores of the same dimension will perform the same.

When I was building ICs for TD5s, I used a far more efficient core than was offered by the opposition at the time.

[iPom]

Mike...Just out of curiosity what make/type do you recommend?

Cheers

[wayne]

Also keep in mind the performance of different ICs due to fin design, core efficiency etc will have a bearing on how the benefit is realised.

Not all cores of the same dimension will perform the same.

When I was building ICs for TD5s, I used a far more efficient core than was offered by the opposition at the time.

Tombie I am looking at an intercooler at the moment, what in your opinion is a good intercooler. I am going to be towing heavy. I have a BD chip, what boost do you recommend?
Cheers