Crank Angle Sensor

[OlliesLRover]

1994 Discovery1 V8i Auto.

Over the last 6months the disco (intermitittently) keeps cutting out whilst driving, it just loses power (after it warms up) and stops but starts up again straight away.

The last 2 days it has got worse up to 4 times a day, today I took it to 4 auto electricians to get the error codes checked, the first 3 didn't have the proper scanner to do it and the third had one but couldn't find where to plug it into (God help us).

After describing the problem to them they all pointed the finger at the Crank Angle Sensor, the last one saying that it was located in the distributor as it was an early model and that later ones were attached to the engine some where.

Have just got home and rang my Landrover guy to see if he had a second hand distributor that had the Crank Angle Sensor in it, he laughed and said that the disco1 didn't have a Crank Angle Sensor because bla bla ect.

After describing the problem to him he said it sounded like the ignition module to him, said his daughter could drop one off on her way home for me cost $100, I said I would get back to him.

Now I am completly confused, so does the 1994 disco have a Crank Angle Sensor or is the Landrover guy correct and could the Ignition Module be the problem.

I would take it to the Landrover guy but am afraid I will end up broken down on the side of the road and be really up the creek without a paddle.

Would really appreciate some help on this one
Many thanks
Rich

ps: have already put a new petrol pump in to start eliminating suspects.

[PhilipA]

Well both are somewhat correct.

The 3.9 does not have a crank angle sensor as such, as a crank angle sensor takes the timing directly from the front or rear of the crankshaft to the ECU which fires the coils directly.This is in later models like Disco 2 and RR38A

The distributor fires the cylinders mechanically, after the ignition pickup send a signal to the ignition module which fires the coil.
So the ignition module is most probably your problem and the parts bloke had the right part.
Regards Philip A

[p38arover]

I agree with Philip. The crank angle sensor didn't come along until the P38A and, subsequently, the Disco 2 - neither of which have a distributor.

[OlliesLRover]

Well both are somewhat correct.

The 3.9 does not have a crank angle sensor as such, as a crank angle sensor takes the timing directly from the front or rear of the crankshaft to the ECU which fires the coils directly.This is in later models like Disco 2 and RR38A

The distributor fires the cylinders mechanically, after the ignition pickup send a signal to the ignition module which fires the coil.
So the ignition module is most probably your problem and the parts bloke had the right part.
Regards Philip A

Thanks Phillip, where is the ignition module located and are they hard to DIY fit??.

Also can you tell me where the plug??? is located that they plug the scanner in for fault codes, so The next time I can show them where it is.

He had a list of where they are but could'nt find it:

5pin 14-CUX - Behind trim panel in front of drivers door.
3pin Electronic EGR - Behind trim panel in front of drivers door.
3PIN mems mpI - Engine bay next to ECU
5pin (blue) ABS - Behind trim panel in front of drivers door
4pin Airbag - Below steering wheel behind trim panel
16pin - Drivers side of centre console above pedals.

Which one is it please for the fault codes.

Again many thanks
Rich

[OlliesLRover]

I agree with Philip. The crank angle sensor didn't come along until the P38A and, subsequently, the Disco 2 - neither of which have a distributor.

Thank god I didn't pay their wonderfull knowledge:mad:

[OlliesLRover]

Well I installed the new ignition module last night, it was a bit fiddly to do due to it's location.

The good news is that it started first go, but I decided against a test drive in the dark, so will go for a spin today and am keeping my fingers crossed.

Regards
Rich

[sheerluck]

The Lucas ignition module is a well known weak point in the V8 D1. It's a shame that Bee Utey didn't see this thread and point you to his very well documented Bosch conversion.

[OlliesLRover]

Not good news, went for a test run after about 9km same problem it just loses power and cut out.

This time when I restarted it, I just sat there and let it idle for about 10min all of a sudden it started idling fast the tacho would go up to around 1400rpm and if I just feathered the throttle the tacho would drop down to under 800rpm, take the foot off the throttle and tacko goes back up to around 1400rpm - if I continued to push the throttle it would just die.

More thoughts/ideas please as starting to tear the hair out.

Regards
Rich

[steelo]

The Lucas ignition module is a well known weak point in the V8 D1. It's a shame that Bee Utey didn't see this thread and point you to his very well documented Bosch conversion.

Any chance you could put up a link please? I would be interested in this with some of the little niggles I'm having. I have a blue dizzy cap, what's the story with them?
Thanks :)

[bee utey]

Any chance you could put up a link please? I would be interested in this with some of the little niggles I'm having. I have a blue dizzy cap, what's the story with them?
Thanks :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a.html

Funny you're talking about blue dissy caps, yesterday a customer handed me one in a box (says Made in Italy) and told me to fit it. It's so loose on the dissy body I wouldn't trust it to not catch the rotor button. So I polished up his original black Lucas cap and put it back on.

As for the OP the coil lead could have fried, causing excess voltages reverberating around and breaking down the coil and the Lucas amplifier. Also the amount of loose connectors I see around the coils on LR's its a wonder they ever keep running. Carefully squeeze any crimp connector to the coil and make sure they go on with a little force. This makes better metal to metal contact than loose dirty old connectors in crumbling nylon sleeves.

[sheerluck]

Any chance you could put up a link please? I would be interested in this with some of the little niggles I'm having. I have a blue dizzy cap, what's the story with them?
Thanks :)

Here's bee utey's Bosch amp conversion: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a.html

And for the dizzy cap, it must be a Lucas one, not aftermarket. Same goes for the rotor button. The aftermarket ones crap out pretty quickly.

[sheerluck]

Must learn to type faster than you Bee Utey!

[steelo]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a.html

Funny you're talking about blue dissy caps, yesterday a customer handed me one in a box (says Made in Italy) and told me to fit it. It's so loose on the dissy body I wouldn't trust it to not catch the rotor button. So I polished up his original black Lucas cap and put it back on.

As for the OP the coil lead could have fried, causing excess voltages reverberating around and breaking down the coil and the Lucas amplifier. Also the amount of loose connectors I see around the coils on LR's its a wonder they ever keep running. Carefully squeeze any crimp connector to the coil and make sure they go on with a little force. This makes better metal to metal contact than loose dirty old connectors in crumbling nylon sleeves.

Yep my blue cap is loose, where the clips clip on it's a bigger space by about 5mm (if that makes sense) & allows cap to be twisted, by hand anyway :confused:

[OlliesLRover]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/96950-lucas-ignition-amplifier-replacement-bosch-024-a.html

As for the OP the coil lead could have fried, causing excess voltages reverberating around and breaking down the coil and the Lucas amplifier. Also the amount of loose connectors I see around the coils on LR's its a wonder they ever keep running. Carefully squeeze any crimp connector to the coil and make sure they go on with a little force. This makes better metal to metal contact than loose dirty old connectors in crumbling nylon sleeves.

Thanks I will double check for loose connections although they seemed ok when I put the ignition module in - the coil lead I will check as I remember when I changed all of the leads and disy cap, the new coil lead was too short and the mechanic put a second hand coil lead on instead.

When you say the Lucas amplifier is this just another name for the ignition module??.

Also the ignition module that the LR mechanic sent to me was a "Bearmach" brand & the box says LR parts & accessories.

[OlliesLRover]

Whats the chances that it could be the coil, it has a Bosch one in it, not sure what type as the label has worn off.

Anyone know the code/id number for the 1994 3.9 v8i

Regards
Rich

[OlliesLRover]

Well I put a new bosch coil in today, no improvement at all.

The done list so far:

1/ Plugs - leads - Dizzy cap - rotor button
2/ Fuel pump - fuel filter.
3/ Cleaned stepper motor - cleaned MAF sensor
4/ Ignition module
5/ Ignition coil
6/ Checked/tightened all relevant connectors/leads

Got in touch with a mobile landrover mechanic today but he can't come till the 29th April, explained every thing to him and he reckons that it may be the temp sensor.

Would he be talking about the Fuel Temp Sensor or Water Temp Sensor?????

Also what is this little rascal (see att pic) it is located near the ignition module and connects to the coil - the markings read AMPOHN - 1uF159V (or similar).

Regards
Rich

[PhilipA]

RF suppressor to stop ignition noise in Radio.
Regards Philip A

[OlliesLRover]

RF suppressor to stop ignition noise in Radio.
Regards Philip A

Many Thanks

ps; At this stage I have decided to get it towed to my Landy guy ($75) on Monday and let them sort it out.

Defeated I am.
Rich

[justinc]

The pickup coil inside the distributor can also cause the sudden stop, and restart as it cools momentarily.

JC

[OlliesLRover]

The pickup coil inside the distributor can also cause the sudden stop, and restart as it cools momentarily.

JC

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am now at the stage where it is getting to expensive to continue buying and replacing parts in hope and not getting any results.

For example I rang up to get a price on a fuel temp sensor and was quoted over $300, now if I knew that would fix the problem then so be it but it is way to expensive just to eliminate another possible cause, so it is time to leave this one to the experts.

Regards
Rich

[Grimace]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am now at the stage where it is getting to expensive to continue buying and replacing parts in hope and not getting any results.

For example I rang up to get a price on a fuel temp sensor and was quoted over $300, now if I knew that would fix the problem then so be it but it is way to expensive just to eliminate another possible cause, so it is time to leave this one to the experts.

Regards
Rich

Mate whom ever quoted you that price should be shot. All sensors are relatively affordable. The costly items are the maf and the IAC Valve (stepper).

Cant recall exact pricing off the top of my head but I got water temp x2, fuel temp and oil pressure sensor for under $100 for the lot.
I have brand new spares in a tool box as the prices allowed me to do so!

$300 bring on the death penalty!!!

[justinc]

$300 is ridiculous.:mad:

Even If you unplug the fuel temp sender on the 14CUX system the ECU sees a value of 50 degreesC and will still allow starting. Conversely try that on a flapper EFI system and it'll stop the engine:(

JC

[OlliesLRover]

Mate whom ever quoted you that price should be shot. All sensors are relatively affordable. The costly items are the maf and the IAC Valve (stepper).

Cant recall exact pricing off the top of my head but I got water temp x2, fuel temp and oil pressure sensor for under $100 for the lot.
I have brand new spares in a tool box as the prices allowed me to do so!

$300 bring on the death penalty!!!

Do you remember who you got them from??

[Grimace]

Do you remember who you got them from??

Can't recall of the top of my head, it may have been LRDirect, I have a large number of orders from them. I generally spend a bit of time researching part numbers prior as you need to have knowledge of part numbers to order online.

The Fuel temp sensor for the d1 and RRC 3.9 V8 is ETC6661

EDIT: I should also add that 90% of my orders, for service parts are through either LRdirect, paddockspares, or island4x4. But I generally research part numbers and look for who has the lot of what I need for the best price and order away.
EDIT2: And island4x4 has the sensor for a reasonable price at the moment ;) http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/fuel-temperature-sensor-etc6661-p-4720.html

[OlliesLRover]

Can't recall of the top of my head, it may have been LRDirect, I have a large number of orders from them. I generally spend a bit of time researching part numbers prior as you need to have knowledge of part numbers to order online.

The Fuel temp sensor for the d1 and RRC 3.9 V8 is ETC6661

EDIT: I should also add that 90% of my orders, for service parts are through either LRdirect, paddockspares, or island4x4. But I generally research part numbers and look for who has the lot of what I need for the best price and order away.
EDIT2: And island4x4 has the sensor for a reasonable price at the moment ;) Fuel Temperature Sensor ETC6661 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order. (http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/fuel-temperature-sensor-etc6661-p-4720.html)

Hmmmm, as somebody else mentioned bring on the death penalty:mad:.

Anyway some good news at last (I think/hope), I had it towed to my LR guy and this is what he has found - the ECU engine temp sensor and plug were both stuffed and were giving fluctuating readings, jumping from 40deg to 90deg back and forth.

He said what this was doing was like telling the ECU, the engine is hot the engine is cold ect ect.

I really didn't understand it as he talks at a hundred miles an hour and lost me very early on.

So could any kind person explain in laymans terms what he is talking about and how it related to my problem.

ps; I have to hitchike to Silverdale tomorrow to pick it up, so if anyone sees a silly old man with a thumb in the air and showing a bit of bandy old leg, plse take pity on him and don't run him over:D

[justinc]

In a very basic sense The ECU 'sees' numbers/ values from various sensors, to enable it to inject fuel at the right time and volume. In the case of the engine coolant temp sensor If the engine is actually warm, and the ECU sees 40 degrees, it thinks it is time to inject more fuel as a warm up program (Like a choke if you like) and since the engine is actually at operating temp there goes your black smoke and poor running. If the engine is cold then a 90 degree reading will mean poor cold start and running due to leaner fuel delivery.

The primary function of the fuel temp switch however is to enable good hot starts, it does this by leaning out the fuel delivery during cranking to avoid flooding.

It is important to mention here that the reasonably primitive 14CUX computer doesn't get confused, it just does EXACTLY as it is told, and it doesn't have the logic to decipher a rapidly fluctuating reading as a fault. It just keeps switching back and forth...

JC

[OlliesLRover]

In a very basic sense The ECU 'sees' numbers/ values from various sensors, to enable it to inject fuel at the right time and volume. In the case of the engine coolant temp sensor If the engine is actually warm, and the ECU sees 40 degrees, it thinks it is time to inject more fuel as a warm up program (Like a choke if you like) and since the engine is actually at operating temp there goes your black smoke and poor running. If the engine is cold then a 90 degree reading will mean poor cold start and running due to leaner fuel delivery.

The primary function of the fuel temp switch however is to enable good hot starts, it does this by leaning out the fuel delivery during cranking to avoid flooding.

It is important to mention here that the reasonably primitive 14CUX computer doesn't get confused, it just does EXACTLY as it is told, and it doesn't have the logic to decipher a rapidly fluctuating reading as a fault. It just keeps switching back and forth...
JC

Thanks Justinc, now it makes more sense.

So in my case, the engine loses power whilst driving because the ECU believes the engine is cold so it gives it a bit of choke thus loss of power.

[steelo]

In a very basic sense The ECU 'sees' numbers/ values from various sensors, to enable it to inject fuel at the right time and volume. In the case of the engine coolant temp sensor If the engine is actually warm, and the ECU sees 40 degrees, it thinks it is time to inject more fuel as a warm up program (Like a choke if you like) and since the engine is actually at operating temp there goes your black smoke and poor running. If the engine is cold then a 90 degree reading will mean poor cold start and running due to leaner fuel delivery.

The primary function of the fuel temp switch however is to enable good hot starts, it does this by leaning out the fuel delivery during cranking to avoid flooding.

It is important to mention here that the reasonably primitive 14CUX computer doesn't get confused, it just does EXACTLY as it is told, and it doesn't have the logic to decipher a rapidly fluctuating reading as a fault. It just keeps switching back and forth...

JC


That might explain why mine ALWAYS revs high on start-up, sometimes as high as 2000, then goes down in increments over a 15 to 30sec time. Also why it seems to flood on cold start-up's & I have to remove fuel pump fuse to start it easily. :confused:

[OlliesLRover]

Well I picked the old girl up this morning and didn't have any problems on the 30klm trip home, so I am going to declare it fixed.

Thanks to all for your help and support

Regards
Rich