Rebuilt gearbox subsequent problems ?

[DarrenW]

Question for those who have had their gearbox rebuilt....

Do you believe the rebuild has made it stronger and now with routine oil changes it is likely to last longer.... Or is just brought it back to factory level.

I've read part of the problem is a weak valve block (bad metal ?) that may be replaced as part of the rebuilds and thefore no longer an issue.

P.S. ...I know there are 2 box's but rebuilds seem to be common for both.

Seriously looking to buy as the prices a going down, but want to use it to tow a 2t caravan, don't mind doing 1 rebuild just don't want to be doing it regularly

Darren

[Homestar]

A good quality rebuild, with a new valve body should see you right for a long time - even towing. The new valve bodies are made from a stronger material, so they won't wear like the original one will. I wouldn't go increasing the power of the TD6 too much over factory though, as the trannie is borderline to handle to torque of the standard engine.

Buy the car - you will love it. Haggle a price that allows you to do a proper rebuild when needed - allow at least $8,000 to do this properly, maybe more if you include a new valve body.

It will be worth your time.:)

Cheers - Gav.

[Summiitt]

I had mine done 12months/35k ago, I put a new heavy duty torque converter on and had a full rebuild done including an out of the box transfer case, I've got full confidence in the box outlasting the car and it's been going like a train ever since...mine is the td6, gm box. The best tow vehicle I've ever had.

[donrover0]

"Soon" I'll be able to report on my fitting of 5L50E into my L322.
I was able to use 90% of the new gearbox; the case, oil pump components, all the heavier duty clutches, new sprags, new valve block, stronger torque converter (2600rpm stall I believe), heavier spring steel drive plate, etc.
Yes, there is a bit of machining to do, but externally/drive plate/flywheel, etc.

It's in the car but I've pulled 1/2 the inside apart to upgrade the "std" sound system with sat nav, etc.
And I'm working out of town so one day each weekend at home lately- can't get past the "house jobs"

[Homestar]

"Soon" I'll be able to report on my fitting of 5L50E into my L322.
I was able to use 90% of the new gearbox; the case, oil pump components, all the heavier duty clutches, new sprags, new valve block, stronger torque converter (2600rpm stall I believe), heavier spring steel drive plate, etc.
Yes, there is a bit of machining to do, but externally/drive plate/flywheel, etc.

It's in the car but I've pulled 1/2 the inside apart to upgrade the "std" sound system with sat nav, etc.
And I'm working out of town so one day each weekend at home lately- can't get past the "house jobs"

Thanks for the update.:). Any chance of a few pics along the way? Did the transfer case bolt straight up?

[donrover0]

You guessed it, didn't take pics during the changeover/assembly of innards, only of completed assembly. Doesnt look any different except it's shiny/brand new casing!
As I bought a NEW unused 5L50E ( off US ebay)-- has mostly new parts inside, including THAT valve block.
The output shaft splines (104T) were same as original, but no way that RR output shaft would fit in due to slightly longer (new) planetary gear set, so here had to use original

Utilising original bell housing assy and rear adaptor so transfer bolts on as normal.

The two main housings are identical castings, just some different drillings/tappings for plugs, etc.
They are a very simple auto to work on; even easier than a ZF! but you need a ginormous circlip pliers; none of which was available at ANY auto repair shop or tool supplier in Toowoomba; made my own.
No, you can't get the one big circlip out with screwdrivers unless you want to risk butchering/damage something else!

[Declan]

donrover0
What cost was it to get your NEW unused 5L50E ( off US ebay)-- to your home, had you any problems getting it thru Australian customs and how much do you believe it will cost you all up compaired to getting the old GM box rebuilt with all lthe sonnex kit upgrade in it ?.
Thanks Declan.

[Homestar]

Sounds like it is goin well mate - have you had much thought on the electronics and getting them to work?

I think the whole world is waiting for you to complete this - it will open the flood gates...:)

Declan, even if this solution costs more, the 5L50E is a much stronger box and will be capable of handling an uprated TD6 with ease, where the 5L40E already there is at its limit now...

[donrover0]

Actual monetary outlay including gearbox, freight, customs, gst then machining springsteel driveplate, flywheel, spacers, bush, etc, oils-- totalled about $4000 PLUS probably 100 hours research, actual stripping/reassembling, removal/reinstallation.
Electronics? Shouldn't really be any hassles. The valve block/input-output speed sensors/solenoids/internal wiring loom/gearbox plug are identical.
I did a similar gearbox upgrade behind my TD5--- Jaguar ZF 4HP24 in lieu of 4HP22- same solenoids/output plug--- just plugged it in and all good--- smoother gear changes than the original Td5 auto!

I used USAtoAUS for freighting, but ex Seattle'to Brisbane( only $250 seafreight) so still theres any inland US component.
Yes-- 5% duty and 10% GST on box, duty, (sea)freight. All done by USAtoAUS; just pay their bill- easy as.

[harlie]

well done Don, a trip to Toowoomba might be needed!

Do you have any idea of labor time?

How much would this cost to have done? (if we can find someone to do it)

Gav - this is the solution for electronic simplicity.

[donrover0]

Labour of love!
Apart from gearbox removal/refitting, the actual changeover of boxes/components was about 2 days, but where time gets away is the running around for the other components, eg. modified flywheel, heavier drive plate ( this made from 4mm spring steel saw blade-- rare as these days!), machining spacers, spigot, etc, etc.
Then time to organise actual purchasing box, shipping, delivery/pickup.
If I had the time ( and you weren't in a big hurry) I'd offer to do all for around $6.5K+.

Took 2 1/2 months just to get the gearbox in my hands!
I do a (very) part time LR diagnostic and repair business in Toowoomba and surrounds.

[Homestar]

At $6.5K, that is very good IMO. You would be struggling to get the 5L40E rebuilt for that price.

Even if you could get some parts made up - flywheel, etc and offer them for sale, I think you would get a few orders from the members here.

Failing that, I would happily throw a few bucks your way for some accurate drawings of what you have done and what needs making.

Also, what are the power and torque specs like on the 5L50E - ie, how much stronger are they?

Keep up the good work - Gav:)

[donrover0]

What are real torque capacities of 5L40 / 5L50?
Wiki says 340Nm/422Nm.
Another site says the 5L50 will handle 25% more torque than the 5L40
Power? Caddys with 5L50E have 230Kw/420Nm
I believe they were also fitted to some Commodore V8's-- don't know the power/torque

[Homestar]

Thanks for that. I guess once that's in and sorted, then a power upgrade to the TD6 will be on the agenda?:)

Almost makes me want to run out and get one so I can chip mine without worrying every time I floor it...:D

Cheers - Gav

[justinc]

Just a quick belated update from this end,

Had a customer with a Td6 failed trans, had Rhys at Furious performance recommended to me from members on here. After talking with him decided he seemed the best to deal with this and sent the trans up to him in Sydney.

Very happy ended up with a new 5L40 , current internals and valve body so should be longer lasting. After lots of research and discussing with him RE the Sonnax stuff he advised to go with the new trans as the sonnax upgrades don't address other issues in the trans so sometimes not the best solution.

Costs were very reasonable considering new components not reco, and drive in / out was around $8k, including freight etc.

Most importantly happy customer and a very responsive/ smooth transmission:D:D:D I'll be sending my 5L40's to him in future :)


JC

[donrover0]

There's a "reasonable " chance that a power upgrade will happen to the TD6.
Mr Davis special.
I've performed a number of upgrades to Disco Td5's locally ( and my own with a little- extra-again-specia- tweak, compliments of Bruce Davis) )and all happy customers.

The new 5L50E that I used had the benefit of the 2004-2007 upgraded valve block so I think it will outlast me.
The torque converter is higher rated than the std, with 2600rpm stall speed so I shouldn't have to put up with the 3000+ rpm of the old one!

Not long soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[harlie]

Did some reading on this topic and now I’m confused as hell. And sorry I’m sure this has been asked before.

There is the question of upgrades, part numbers for Torque converter changed in 2003 then 2004 and again – I assume the TCC changed as well. I haven’t been able to find anything solid on what and why these changes occurred, or exactly when.
Is there any data on failures by year? Are the first (2002) more prone?

There is mention of two different part numbers for the 5 speed box used in the diesel BMW. A5S360R and A5S390R – supposedly BMW trans part numbers indicate torque capacities 360 & 390nm. Both are 5L40.
Early BMWs (up to October 2002 manufactured trans) had a “Small Diameter” version of the box where the overall diameter of the 2nd clutch and the 2nd coast frictions and steels is smaller (2nd clutch plate outside diameter increased from 130mm in the early models to 138mm) – this is the 360, where the 390 version is the larger diameter. Did RR see the same change? I have no idea what else changed.

Also Stevemfr (GAP fame) wrote a couple of segments (2011-2012) claiming that 99% of failures are pressure related, worn valve block drops pressure to TCC, creating more wear/heat which in turn dumps more debris and wears the valve block further ect ect. We have all read the teardown by RRPhil in which he finds no obvious sign of problems other then the TCC linings completely gone. Both these blokes are well regarded and have expressed opinion that the level of torque produced and weight was not the cause or contributed to failure – it didn’t help but there is other issues at play. ??

I’ve read that the 5L50 has heavier planetary gear set to handle increase torque, but clutch packs and TC were generally the same as the 40, and the valve block is definitely the same.

Don - If you have used the old (40) Planetary Gear set due to the new one not fitting, could we get the same result with a rebuild of our 5L40 using the heavier clutch packs and TC?. With valve issues addressed (essentially what Stevemfr repeatedly claims). Planetary Gear set failures are not common so I can understand why you’re not concerned cutting them out. Certainly not trying to prove anyone wrong mate, just trying to understand for when my goes – we all need someone to do what you have embarked on! As the only local source that has seen both side by side hopefully you can provide input. And for the cost, you’re on a winner..

Justinc - is he providing a brand new trans? As in not rebuilt/remanufactured? What other issues does he talk about?
What is upgraded in the new unit from Furious performance?

[harlie]

The torque converter is higher rated than the std, with 2600rpm stall speed so I shouldn't have to put up with the 3000+ rpm of the old one!



That point alone would be worth it. 2600 would be a huge improvement.

The valve block was updated 2004? any ideas of plate numbers or if we can get an idea if we have an update?

My truck has now done 40,000km with the Bluefin retune (500nm), the trans has been serviced every 20k since I've had it and the fluid comes out clean each time, and there is no noticable difference in operation before/after any of the services like many report (it has always been and still is beautifully smooth) - Now, I'm expecting it to completly self destruct without warning and from what I read it should have crapped out long ago, which has me planning

[Laurie]

The biggest wear issues stem from wear in the valve body bores and in the torque converter clutch valve bore!

Harlie
In regards to doing up the 5L40E box with uprated clutch packs the BIG problem is the "direct clutch drum" I mentioned when we first started looking at this. It won't take the torque increases safely if you want to beef the power up. RRPhil has just recently posted about this problem at the end of his 5L40E post ! see link below. The main shafts are different in the 2 boxes

GM 5L40-E transmission teardown - Page 8 (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-rover-mark-iii-l322/34259-gm-5l40-e-transmission-teardown-8.html)

Laurie

[Laurie]

We know LR changed things from 04 in these boxes, but have a look at this post

fullfatrr.com - View topic - new td6 gearbox (http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic18467.html)

Intertesting !!!

Laurie

[harlie]

Has me a little concerned when RRPhil asks "So does anyone know the difference between a TGD000141 and a TGD000142 ? "

Hopefully this will come to light soon.

Is this number on the box somewhere?

I'd still like to know if there is any correlation between number of failures and year of manufacture.

[Laurie]

Harlie from reading on FFrr site, the 04+ boxes are generally lasting longer, with very little reported on the 05/06 models so far. Could be a mileage thing ;) but it is something I'm keeping a eye on.

Laurie

[Grumbles]

I'm with Harlie on this one. I too am interested in this and keen to ascertain if the problem dissapears in the later year models of the L322.

I also have no idea if the same problem applies to the petrol RR Sport - I have no interest in diesel engined cars.

[33chinacars]

Hi Grumbles

TD6 used a GM box. Where as the V8 petrols used a ZF box. Still not without its problems. Just not as many as the GM box.

Not sure about RRSport ZF boxes

Gary

[harlie]

off track for a moment - RRSport/D4 has the same ZF 6HP24 (rated to 600nm) as MY07-10 L322. Same issue with lack of service but unlike the L322 the RRS must have the transmission pan modified as part of the first service (rather expensive). There is a chassis member directly under the trans preventing removal of the pan.

[TazzyRR]

G'day donrover0

Any updates on your gearbox upgrade are welcomed, if it works, would you be keen to do it for my MY06 TD6 Vogue? (yeah me and everyone else I spose,lol) Interested to know how much it all cost you too mate.

Cheers, Glen

[harlie]

Hi Glen, is yours playing up? Interested to know as the 06 will have the updated version.

[donrover0]

Hi Glen,
Fraid I still haven't had the time to finish my wiring/satnav/tele changes, so can't yet run the car. Within next few weeks, or someone threatened to sell the car while I'm away at work.!
Don