Rangie just stopped! Engine no go!

[Keithy P38]

I am stuck (off the middle of a peak hour intersection now thank god)! Rangie was idling away nicely at a red light then just died! Won't start. I have plenty of power - the car has no signs of problem cranking, just won't fire.

Faultmate shows no fault codes.

Any ideas?

[p38arover]

I can only think of crank angle sensor.

[Hoges]

Given that it just "died" while idling, but cranks over OK without starting ...my first thought is fuel ... dead pump?

Check relays/fuses for petrol pump... listed in the driver's handbook (do you have it there? )

[Hoges]

Fuse #26 20A Engine Management system

Fuse #37 30A EMS

Fuse #39 20A Fuel Pump

Maxi Fuse 50A EMS

EDIT: Fuel pump relay is #12 which is the yellow one in the front row (closest to radiator) on the LHS (closest to middle of vehicle) ...

[Keithy P38]

Cheers fellas! I checked the fuses and they are all ok. I even swapped a few relays over just in case!

Fuel pump or crank angle sensor eh... Will plug the laptop in and see what it shows while cranking. I can at least check the fuel pump that way too!

How's this for a bad day - tomorrow is my birthday! Today out D-max battery died, so we took the Rangie and now this haha! Lucky for me I was within a km of home (and on the way home).

Things don't just happen randomly at my house, when one car is sick it passes it on to the other!

[Keithy P38]

Oh, and did I mention I'm on holidays too!

[Hoges]

FWIW: Same thing happened to Gazza123 in Jan2012 http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/142958-fuel-pump-replacement.html

[Keithy P38]

Symptoms are the same - stopped dead. No spluttering or anything. Had been driven approx. 50km today. I have no fuel smell, never been able to hear the pump running the whole time I've owned the Rangie. Very quiet pump.

I just went to the garage and it started without hesitation. The car is still 'warm' and was not what I would say 'hot' to begin with - normal conditions, it had seen much hotter days than this.

One thing I will mention, every time I drive this particular hill at my fav camp spot the engine hesitates (loses power but does not stop) at the exact same point on the hill every time I drive the hill. It is not a massively severe hill - it drives much steeper climbs with no dramas, and the fuel level is over half a tank each time I drive the hill...

Could the two be linked?

[Keithy P38]

Crank sensor is behind the crank pulley yeah? The one that generally cops anything oily or muddy?

Maybe I should give the engine bay a bath and give the sensor contacts a birthday?

[wayneg]

Happy birthday for tomorrow. Sounds very much like the fuel pump is on its last legs. Same thing happened to me although I was cruising at 100kph a long way from home towing a trailer up a very long hill. After 15 mins by the side of the road it just started again. Had one other no start a while after which was cured by wacking the underside of the fuel tank. No more dramas after fitting new pump

[mtb_gary]

Keith

Happy birthday for tomorrow. Things can only get better....hopefully the repair is easy on the pocket ;)

Gary

[Keithy P38]

Cheers lads! Ill do a search now and find out if there is a compatible pump from something local!

[Hoges]

Crank sensor is behind the crank pulley yeah? The one that generally cops anything oily or muddy?

Maybe I should give the engine bay a bath and give the sensor contacts a birthday?

Think you may be referring to the camshaft position sensor. On the Thor engine the CKP sensor is on the LHS of the engine block, below cylinder #7.

Wayneg has a good post on fuel pump replacement for Thor engine...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/160342-thor-fuel-pump-renew-fuel-filter-renew-fuel-level-sender-clean.html

cheers

[Keithy P38]

Cheers for the link! I will jump on ebay and get a new pump.

Still trying to convince myself that it is the pump at fault. When it wouldn't start, the car engine wasn't "almost there", it wasn't going to start and it was obvious. When it did start an hour or so later there was no mistaking that it was going to fire - it roared straight to life and idled like nothing was wrong for the few minutes I let it run. I wasn't game to drive it up the street as my driveway is too steep for even two blokes to push it up, had a few Neighbours lend a hand to get her into the garage!

I suppose if I can get a pump cheap enough it'll be good insurance, but I'm still wondering if there is something else not right... Will plug the laptop into it today and let it idle for a bit. Is there anything I should be looking for on Vehicle Explorer that will point directly at the suspect? Fuel pressure? Ignition timing? Also, is the pump on a 100% duty cycle or does it cut in/out as pressure sees fit?

Cheers for the suggestions and the links too Hoges. It has been a quick reference for me, defo made life easier in the research department!

One more bourbon and bed I think!
Keithy

[Grumbles]

I thought there was a valve [looks like a tyre valve] up high on the engine which is connected to the fuel rail and to which you can atach a pressure gauge to determine what is happening with the fuel pump.

[benji]

Happy Birthday for today.

Fuel pump stays on all the time; if you stick your ear to the bottom of the tank and get someone to turn on the ignition you can definitely hear the pump working. It should run for about 3seconds then turn off, it'll start again I think when the engine fires.

If there are no fault codes id assume the crank sensor is okay, the ecu would onto that one.

[bee utey]

The best place to listen for the fuel pump is at the fuel filler with the cap off. It should run for 3 seconds after you stop cranking the starter.

[poleonpom]

Same thing happened to me, if engine stops at normal temp then starts at cold, then crank angle. If car loses power: petrol pump (check pressure is 45psi at valve in fuel rail) If car hesitates and is slow to pick up from idle: MAF. All 3 of these went on me at once! happy birthday:)

[Keithy P38]

Half your luck hey!

Ill have to find some sort of pressure gauge and plug it in! I could probably just use a tyre gauge if its the normal type fitting? Might just put a valve removal tool on it and see if it dribbles or squirts.

I hope it's none of the other two!

Cheers for the B'day wishes guys!

[Keithy P38]

UPDATE:

Just did the sound check on the fuel pump, with ignition switched on the pump started and ran for about 1 second. It sounded "healthy" - a high pitched whistle with no signs of a struggle.

Could it be intermittent pump fault, or have I another issue?

I am going to move Rangie onto the driveway and pressure wash the engine and bay, will have a listen to the pump while the motor is running.

[Bigbjorn]

Sounds like a classic electronic failure. Sudden stoppage, restarts after the failing component cools down. Usually the stoppages become more frequent and longer in duration until the suspect component fails completely.

Best solution? Get something with a carburettor and points ignition, or a mechanical injection diesel.

[Keithy P38]

Haha! That's why I've got the Torana and my dirt bike! All you need is a sniff of fuel and a charged battery or a tin of "start ya bastard" and she's away!

[Keithy P38]

Just ordered a new pump off eBay, from a local supplier too (with warranty).

I didn't get the chance to plug the faultmate in today, will do tomorrow. It is possible that the pump could have stopped due to heat in the fuse box as there was quite a bit of heat in there. Maybe I need to look at a new fuse box soon, otherwise the "nearing death" fuel pump may have caused a bit of heat in there.

Will let you know how I go.

[glenhendry]

Fuel pumps can definitely give you this kind of intermittent behavior. With their price, and their importance, I reckon that it's a good move to eliminate it as a problem. Try to measure the pressure at the fuel rail schrader valve before you swap in the new one, to quantify the difference. Fuel should spew out of it, not dribble. Fuel pump runs from ignition position 1.

Good luck.

[BusinessConnected]

Keithy:
Had the same issue myself, ordered the pump etc... and then thought to have a look at see if my car was fitted with a Fuel Filter.

(Under Driver's Side Rear Door on a GEMS P38).

Sure enough as soon as I changed this, I had no further issues and have been that way for the last 20,000km....

If your Car is a GEMS, it's worth having a look and changing it if you haven't done so for a while....

Regards
Heath

[Keithy P38]

Thanks Heath! Mine is a Thor!

I'll give the schrader valve a squirt, plug old faultmate in and if those two show nothing I'm going to go for a drive with the laptop plugged in.

Cheers lads, will post up today's findings.

[wayneg]

Another trick you can keep ready is if the CPS is failing they do it when hot. Once cooled they generally spring back to life. If you get another sudden engine stoppage poor some cold water over the cps to cool it down and try to start soon after.

[Keithy P38]

I think ill have to do that!

I have had the Rangie idling for half an hour with the faultmate and laptop plugged in now and nothing has appeared out of the ordinary. All fueling looks good, the car revs freely (even at high throttle).

Vehicle Explorer is saying that the fuel pump is off when it is on (a bit backwards), but it hasn't missed a beat this whole time. It is still idling away now.

I have captured a recording of the engine idling for a few minutes, I give it a rev or two in there, nothing is showing up! Fuel tank pressure and filtered fuel pressure (I'm guessing that's fuel rail pressure) are both sitting pretty at 30.98 (assuming this is PSI as there is nothing written after it).

I took a screen shot of this very engine data 4 weeks ago when I was playing with my EAS, all fuel pressures and other data is exactly the same back then to what it is now.

Might order a crank position sensor too methinks...

Thoughts?

[Keithy P38]

BINGO! Thank you for that brilliant idea Wayne!

She just stopped, no codes, nothing to do with fueling. It would not restart after 3 attempts, poured water over the crank position sensor and it restarted immediately.

Time for a new cps!

Massive thanks to all who gave input!

Cheers
Keithy

[Hoges]

Genius award for the week goes to.... RonP38arover:clap2:


I can only think of crank angle sensor.

ps: I'm sure "they" can threat this !!:eek::angel:

[Hoges]

Hi Keithy P38, I'm most interested to learn how you change the CKP sensor ... seems a really fiddly job.

BTW, how may klicks do you have on the clock? The redesigned CKP set up for the Thor engine is supposed to be more reliable than the GEMS...

Am wondering if it's a reasonable approach to change it over on a time/km basis as a preventive maintenance issue. I recently replaced the camshaft position sensor and coil packs when I did the heads... didn't think to do the CKP while the exhaust manifolds were out of the way:mad:

[Keithy P38]

Just looking on Rave, it's fiddly but not hard. Access to the sensor is easy, as is the loom.

I have 235,000km on the clock. Not sure if my engine has been rebuilt before or not, but she runs VERY smooth and VERY quiet. Not an ounce of tappet noise - even after sitting for weeks on end! Just ask Paul!

If the engine is cold I rekon I could have the job done in 20mins.

[Keithy P38]

Here is a few pics of the Crank Position Sensor on my Thor P38. Clean - thankfully, and not too hard to get at. The pipe headed up the back of the block is the loom pipe. Should be a quick job. Will move rangie back into the garage and remove the offender now ready for the new one on Monday.

[Keithy P38]

So I pulled the old sensor out in preparation for the new one going in.

If you exclude my moment of idiocy getting the electrical connector off, it took all of 5mins.

The two bolts holding the heat shield for the sensor are 7mm and the two bolts holding the sensor itself are 8mm. The connector behind the LH head is misleading to look at - you would think to squash the first tab and pull, but you actually need to get a small screwdriver and lift the small tab towards the centre of the engine bay.

I guess it was a bit dark in there for me and I've been neglecting the carrots lately.

Replacement should only take 5mins - very easy job and can be done without the need for something to stand on. No swearing involved to remove the connector (once I actually found the correct tab). I used a normal 3/8 drive ratchet to remove the bolts, there is plenty of room to work and they were not very tight (6Nm).

See attached pics of the dying sensor. A bit more oil in the engine bay than I first thought!

Cheers
Keithy

[wanglemoose]

FWIW, regarding fuel pumps. i had my commodore one die leaving me for a long wait for the tow truck at 11pm. gave no symptoms of pump and pointed to tps in its behavior. replaced tps ran fine for a week then died again. this time the pump diddnt make the RIGHT noise. replaced the pump been going for 12 months no probs. when we got the old one out we bench tested it and it flowed correct and pressurized properly, the only difference we could find between that and the new one was the old one pulled 9 more amps than the new, logic would state that it should have blown the fuse.

[Keithy P38]

I fitted the new crank sensor yesterday, took the Rangie for an hour long peak hour run, gave a few falcons and commodores a bit of a scare and I'm happy to report that it didn't stop once.

I thought if it were anything fuel related then taking on mum's taxi with the son driving would surely show up any problems. None to report. Nice warm North Queensland arvo it was too.

Cheers
Keithy

[ytt105]

Keithy

Ive got as new one on the shelf, but I've put off replacing it because it looks too hard. I can't even see the connection part.

Did you do it from up top or from underneath on a hoist?

Regards
Trev

[Keithy P38]

I laid on my back on the ground! Rangie was in normal height with the battery disconnected.

To access the connector you will need to be going from the top. If you can touch the rear of the left head, you can reach the connector. It is not hard to un-clip.

I found it easy to do with one hand (the sensor). You could use two hands by reaching over from the front of the diff.

Easy job, could do it in my sleep, and this was the first time I've done the job.

[Keithy P38]

Another follow-up (gotta love 'em), went out bush last weekend, a few hours drive from home - 350km round trip. Lots of low range and general slow driving with no issues.

Cheers
Keithy

[benji]

Same thing happened to me, if engine stops at normal temp then starts at cold, then crank angle. If car loses power: petrol pump (check pressure is 45psi at valve in fuel rail) If car hesitates and is slow to pick up from idle: MAF. All 3 of these went on me at once! happy birthday:)

This should be added into the sticky section . Great advice.