Replacing Salisbury bearings

[steveG]

I'm currently refurbishing a Salisbury to go into my County. The pinion and carrier bearings are quite worn so I'm going to replace them.

I know I need to set it all up again properly, but practically - are new bearings likely to cause significant change from the originals?
Just wondering if I should bother ordering a few shims now, or if its worth just assembling with the old shims first if its likely to be OK.

Steve

[clive22]

Hi

I'd play it safe. Given that they are quite worn, you would have to think new would be different after all the wear has to be taken up somewhere.

The shims sets all the teeth engagements on a Sals so to have them centred on the strong part of the tooth is the essence of setting up a diff. They (the shims) are not much money and not hard to get. Finally once there set up right there set up for a long while.

Personally I'd go one step further and a have a solid rather than a crush spacer machined to set up the rear diff pinion once and for all. Diff places can do this. They can and mine did crush up further when reversing hard (winds them up in compression ) in LR 4WD. No probs since mine was done.


Clive

[steveG]

Thanks Clive.
I was more thinking that the original shimming would have been done when the bearings were new, and unlikely to have been re-done since. Therefore if the bearing manufacturing tolerances are small the new bearings might be a drop in replacement.
No problem with getting shims, just one less thing to order if I'm not going to end up using them.

I'd heard of using solid spacers, but hadn't considered the spacers being loaded up more in reverse. I'm guessing a solid spacer is nothing special apart from the length being critical, so I could just turn one up myself.

Steve

[goingbush]

there is no easy way to get the carrier bearings off a Salisbury without damaging the shims.

if you change the pinion bearings you will need to start from scratch, the existing carrier shims will be a guide only.

I would buy a spare set of carrier cones and hone out the centres so that they are a push on fit, that way you can set up the shim pack & still be able to adjust them if you stuffed up, otherwise once you have pressed the cones on you wont be able to, once you have found the correct shims you can press on the real cones.

[clive22]

Hi Steve

Not saying you would jamb it back in.

But I'm guessing that the tolerances wouldn't be the same,bearing, wear,etc. machines change and given that you do the final adjustment with paper thin shims, so was thinking that would be a bit too lucky to plan for.

Thinking back I did mine about 3.5 years ago and used set up bearings, i..e Polished salisbury carrier bearings, if your around Richmond, I can did out and lend them to you. They slip straight on and off so you can calculate your shims in-situ.

I didn't do my pinion. That said I understand though that your right just machine up a block to the dia. of a crushed up a spacer. Crush up a fresh one to the set torque then dock your solids length exactly to match. Thought I read threads about this somewhere some time ago though.


Clive

[steveG]

Thanks guys.

Clive, thanks for the offer to loan your setup bearings. I'll ask around the guys down this way first and see if anyone has some to save you digging them out.

Don, I'm assuming you'd use a similar method for the rear pinion bearing - linish a spare cup until it just slides in to enable easy access to the shims under the cup? I'll admit to not having RTFM yet - feel free to tell me so if its all in there :angel:

Steve

[goingbush]

Thanks guys.

Clive, thanks for the offer to loan your setup bearings. I'll ask around the guys down this way first and see if anyone has some to save you digging them out.

Don, I'm assuming you'd use a similar method for the rear pinion bearing - linish a spare cup until it just slides in to enable easy access to the shims under the cup? I'll admit to not having RTFM yet - feel free to tell me so if its all in there :angel:

Steve

yes Steve, same thing to set the pinion up,
you wont find it in the Manual tho, The manual is strictly measure up and calculate shims, if you don't get it right first time your stuffed, I always measure as good as I can & select shims, use honed out bearing cups to fit it up, Then check backlash and use Yellow oxide or Bearing blue to check tooth contact pattern and adjust as req, The extra $80 you spend on bearing cups is worth it. (better still borrow Clives :) but makes sure the ones you use are the same brand )

once its all perfect then press on the real cups.

you will get a better diff than the factory set up,

Helps if you have a diff spreader too.

(once you done a Salisbury you can set up a Rover diff in your sleep)

[Bearman]

Thanks guys.

Clive, thanks for the offer to loan your setup bearings. I'll ask around the guys down this way first and see if anyone has some to save you digging them out.

Don, I'm assuming you'd use a similar method for the rear pinion bearing - linish a spare cup until it just slides in to enable easy access to the shims under the cup? I'll admit to not having RTFM yet - feel free to tell me so if its all in there :angel:

Steve

Steve, I have a set of dummy bearings in the shed which are a slip fit on the carrier. I will get the bearing numbers for you in the morning if you want them. My 2 cents worth is just fit new bearings with the same shims and do a backlash and tooth contact check. Maybe I have just been lucky but I have done a few over the years and they have been spot on this way. Shouldn't be a problem unless you are fitting the gears to a different housing.

[steveG]

Steve, I have a set of dummy bearings in the shed which are a slip fit on the carrier. I will get the bearing numbers for you in the morning if you want them. My 2 cents worth is just fit new bearings with the same shims and do a backlash and tooth contact check. Maybe I have just been lucky but I have done a few over the years and they have been spot on this way. Shouldn't be a problem unless you are fitting the gears to a different housing.

I've already got the carrier bearings in the shed so I'm OK for those numbers (Timken 382S cup/387A cone), but if you happen to have the pinion bearing numbers around would be helpful.
The bearings in this diff are all Toyo which surprised me as I thought LR were usually Timken. The diff was from an ex-African 130 so maybe that makes a difference. The ones in my County are definitely Timken.

When you say you've had success with just new bearings and the same shims, do you mean the same thickness of shims or have you found a way of getting the cones off without destroying the shims?

Steve

[Vern]

Brian I did the same as you, except I lunched my shims getting the old carrier bearings off. So I ordered some dana60 ones from amazon, got out the micrometer, measured them all up as best as I could, stuck the carrier back in, bearing blue, and it was perfect:D
Just need to do my solid pinion spacer and seal and all done:)

[goingbush]

the comments about using same shim thickness as original are fair enough,
the Sals is so over engineered for the Landy that its very forgiving of a bit of intolerance, but its really nice to minimise the backlash ( Truetracs really tighten up the slop)
I only had a Salisbury apart to fit a Maxidrive or Truetrac, in which case you defenitly need to set up from scratch

[Vern]

I only had a Salisbury apart to fit a Maxidrive or Truetrac, in which case you defenitly need to set up from scratch
Not when doing a Detroit, rip it out then slam it in:)

[Bearman]

Brian I did the same as you, except I lunched my shims getting the old carrier bearings off. So I ordered some dana60 ones from amazon, got out the micrometer, measured them all up as best as I could, stuck the carrier back in, bearing blue, and it was perfect:D
Just need to do my solid pinion spacer and seal and all done:)

Damien, I must have been a bit more gentle than you when I removed my carrier bearings/shims as I managed to reuse them (after a little straightening on the anvil). Have done about 4 Sals over the years and never had to reset pinion height yet. I wasn't happy with the backlash on 1 so I sacraficed a set of bearings and reset it. (that was before I found the dummy bearings). Very interested in the solid spacer you are doing. Are you using hollow bar to make it out of. Very interested in seeing a pic when you get it done. I have just finished rebuilding one and used the crushable spacer:(

Steve, I only have the dummies for the carrier as I have never had to adjust pinion height.

[Vern]

Brian, I accidently over tightened the drive flange hence now I'm doing the solid spacer.

[Ancient Mariner]

Pinion depth should not alter unless changing CP or housing.Solid spacer Yes YES but make sure you dont finish up with to much preload keep the CP backlash and preload
within specs some marker paste to check tooth pattern and your right to go
Dont forget the oil

[Jode]

there is no easy way to get the carrier bearings off a Salisbury without damaging the shims.

if you change the pinion bearings you will need to start from scratch, the existing carrier shims will be a guide only.

I would buy a spare set of carrier cones and hone out the centres so that they are a push on fit, that way you can set up the shim pack & still be able to adjust them if you stuffed up, otherwise once you have pressed the cones on you wont be able to, once you have found the correct shims you can press on the real cones.
That's good advice regarding the set-up bearings. However there's at least one tool that does allow you to remove the carrier bearings without damaging the shims - Durasolid's bearing puller. These are designed for the Dana 60 so they're perfect for the Sal.

And if it was me, I'd probably make my first set-up attempt by using the old shims and see where the pattern is, and then work from there by either adding or subtracting as needed.

[rick130]

Just bumping this for a Q.

What's the consensus, is a solid spacer that much better than the OE collapsible one ?

Will be doing a Sals soon.

[Vern]

I put one in mine, although my vernier must be ever so slightly different to my mates who made the spacer as I had to shim it, no big deal though:)
Not sure if its a better way to go or not though

[steveG]

I put a new OE one in mine when I rebuilt it, so can't comment on the solid one. Maybe I'm a just a pussy, but they take a LOT of effort to compress when you set them up and I'd be really surprised if they actually compress in operation.

Only advantage I can see is being able to shim the solid one like Damien has done. Would definitely make it easier to set up than the "bit more, bit more, bit....crap....too much" experience with the collapsible one.

FWIW, I had very little joy with using carrier setup bearings.
Borrowed some and got everything set up nice, pressed on the real bearings and preload/backlash was miles out.
After making up a decent puller to remove the new cones without damaging them, I decided it must have been that the setup bearings I used were different brand than the new Timken bearings I was using.
Bought some genuine Timken cones with clearanced bores to use for setup, and repeated the exercise. Still no damn good!!!
Thankfully, since I'd already made the puller I was able to set it up by trial and error by removing the bearings from the carrier and adding/removing shims. Never really got to the bottom of why the setup bearings didn't work, as after a week of frigging with it every night I was just glad it was done.
Done about 9000k's on it since and its all good so pretty happy with the outcome - just a bit frustrating on the way along.

Hopefully yours goes smoothly Rick.

Steve

[Bearman]

That's strange Steve. I set mine up with the dummy bearings and the backlash was the same when I put the standard bearings on. Maybe the dummies you had were different. I will get the numbers off them tomorrow and post them up.

[steveG]

That's strange Steve. I set mine up with the dummy bearings and the backlash was the same when I put the standard bearings on. Maybe the dummies you had were different. I will get the numbers off them tomorrow and post them up.

I got the numbers (Timken 388A) that you've posted up previously here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/163486-salisbury-shims.html

From memory, I think I ended up with one shim left over of the ones I removed from the old bearings. With the setup cones (both the borrowed ones and the new 388A's) all the original shims were required to get the preload correct, but it was too tight with the proper cones fitted and I had to remove a shim from the total.

Seems like the new cones I had were just a fraction wider than they should have been. Maybe I ended up with 2 of them at the high end of the production tolerances - don't know. Can't recall if I actually measured the thickness compared to the setup cones, as by then I was completely over the job :(

Steve

[rick130]

Have done quite a few diffs on race cars many, many years ago but it's been a long time between drinks (and never really enjoyed it either) but I've seen too many diffs cocked up by experienced diff builders too. I just can't farm this sort of job out, just goes against my nature.

Always used dummy bearings for setup and never had a problem, not sure what was going on there Steve ?

Hope it goes smoothly too, life's interesting enough ATM without inducing further complications....
My the hell do we do this to ourselves ? :wacko:

BTW, there's no noises, etc, but I'm swapping in a new centre and at 310,000km I'm just worried I'll be asking for trouble not doing the pinion bearings and seal too......