County rear disk brake conversion, pics & p/n's

[rijidij]

There's been a few County rear disk conversions on the forum. The 'easiest' way to do it is simply swap the whole rear axle for a Defender disk rear axle, but in my case the rear axle in my County has had the full Maxi-Drive treatment, so just converting the existing axle is the obvious choice. There are also some advantages using some County parts which will be detailed below.
Apart from the rear end conversion, it is highly recommended to replace the booster/master with a more suitable unit.
Thanks to SteveG who recently went through the process and saved me a lot of time researching what parts to use, we tried to do a conversion using parts which are fairly easy to pick up second hand and also keep the conversion as simple as possible.

These are the main parts used in this conversion. There will most likely be other options, but this is what we came up with.

· Twin diaphragm booster/master from Discovery 1 (300Tdi) Part #ANR2046 or ANR2416.
· Rear callipers from D1 with mounting bolts and brake pipes.
· County rear stub axles (if new ones are needed) Part #FRC3132.
· County front hubs Part #FRC6139 (Wider bearing spacing than Defender).
· Rear disks from RRC, D1, Early Defender. Part #FTC1381.
· Laser cut calliper brackets (custom).

First, the booster/master. The reason we went for a D1 unit was because the push rod length is the same as the County if you remove the diamond shaped spacer from the D1 unit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/731.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Boosters_3_zpsdc17dd3c.jpg.html)

Remove this spacer from the D1 booster.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/732.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Spacer_zpse22be851.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/733.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Boosters_4_zpsb6131713.jpg.html)


The stud patterns on the boosters are quite different, the County has 4 studs, the D1 has 2.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/734.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Boosters_5_zps7d6802e7.jpg.html)

You need to drill the two holes in the County pedal box to suit the D1 unit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/735.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Pedal-box-1_zpsa600d150.jpg.html)

The two new holes are in line with the sides of the pedal box, so you need to cut away a section at the sides to allow room for a spanner to fit the nuts.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/736.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Pedal-box-2_zps160c28ca.jpg.html)


Once the booster is mounted you need to fit the brake pipes to the master cylinder. The rear pipe will fit straight in, but the front port on the County master has a bigger fitting than the D1. If you get the pipes with the rear D1 callipers, one of these can be used to replace the front pipe on the master cylinder to the firewall as the fittings are the correct size. The pipe will be a bit long, but can be bent to shape. I chose to cut the new pipe to length and took it to a brake specialist to have the end of the pipe flared. He actually did this for free as it only took a minute.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/737.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Brake-pipes_zps6b79eec5.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/738.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Master-pipes_zps33878f14.jpg.html)


Now for the rear end. Basically the drum units are stripped right back to the axle housing.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/739.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Drum_zps2f3740aa.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/740.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Drum-Remove_zps512890ca.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/1091.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Strip-Axle_zps17a33c32.jpg.html)

We used D1 rear callipers as these are easy to find, there's lots of D1 wrecks advertised compared to Defenders. Make sure you get the mounting bolts with them as they are 12.9 high tensile fine thread bolts, not that you couldn't buy some, but it will save chasing them up and they wouldn't be that cheap. Also get the brake pipes with the callipers so you can use one on the master as explained above.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/741.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Calipers_zps3aaba98b.jpg.html)

The only custom made parts are the calliper mounting brackets which I had laser cut, also the dust shield. You could get the dust shields off a wreck, but I just had some cut as a set with the brackets.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/742.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Laser-parts_zps52e2859b.jpg.html)

The reason I chose to custom make these is, Defender mounting brackets did not suit the offset of the D1 callipers and disks. I had a matching face plate laser cut at the same time so I can machine the brackets to suit the offset we need.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/743.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Face-plate_zps5ed722f9.jpg.html)

It might seem excessive to get parts laser cut, but the custom brackets actually cost less than half the price of new Defender brackets, and I regularly get parts laser cut for my business, so it was no big deal to draw up the parts and get them cut..

This is the genuine Defender type calliper bracket.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/744.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/DefCalBrk_zps139bc361.jpg.html)


If your County is pre '88 '87 ? you should be able to use your original stub axles.
I had to replace the rear stub axles on my '88 County as the later Countys had different stubs on the rear with a different bearing spacing in the drum type hub.
Early County hubs and stubs are a better option than Defender hubs and stubs as the Defender hubs have a very narrow bearing spacing which puts more load on the bearings.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/748.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Stubs_zpse9c16c71.jpg.html)

This is the new stub axle, dust shield and calliper brackets fitted up. The four bolts that connect the calliper bracket are new as the original bolts from the drum setup are too short. The new ones are 50mm long.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/745.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Fit-Stub-Brk_zps9449f5c3.jpg.html)

Fit the new disks, hubs and callipers.
The original brake pipes from the drum brakes can carefully be bent to match up with the new callipers.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/746.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Fit-Hub-Caliper_zpsbc00a6c1.jpg.html)

Fit axles, drive flanges, brake pads etc. Bleed the system. All done !!!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/747.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Fit-Flange-Pads_zps12545437.jpg.html)


The difference in braking performance is quite significant.
Once you do a rear disk conversion on a County, it's one of those things you say, why the hell didn't I do this years ago.........all this time, I could've had good brakes. :)


There's probably a few bits and pieces I haven't mentioned here, but hopefully I've covered enough.

Cheers, Murray

[123rover50]

Good write up. Thanks.
Perhaps you might think of selling bracket kits. I have been thinking of converting the 110. Then I have two drum axles on the rear of the 6x6 as well.
Was the tubed axle a part of the maxidrive kit?

Didiman

[flagg]

Good write up. Thanks.
Perhaps you might think of selling bracket kits.

+1!! :D

[the_preacher1973]

Another vote for a run of brackets! I'll even pay up front.

[LRO]

Hi
ill buy three sets

[steveG]

Good write up. Thanks.
Perhaps you might think of selling bracket kits. I have been thinking of converting the 110. Then I have two drum axles on the rear of the 6x6 as well.
Was the tubed axle a part of the maxidrive kit?

Didiman

You must have a good eye for detail Didiman. I wondered WTH you were talking about "tubed axle" until I had a decent look at the photos.

For anyone who is sourcing D1 calipers to do a similar conversion, be aware that the early ones had a coarser thread on the bolts that mount the caliper to the bracket. Not the end of the world - just something to be aware of when sourcing parts or making brackets.
I'm not sure exactly when the changeover happened, but the ones I got from a '92 model were coarse thread, and the '97 model were fine thread.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just some questions,

About your comment that the closer bearing spacing puts more load on the bearings. I'm a bit confused, if the mass of the vehicle is unchanged where does the additional load come from?
And.
Could it be an artifact of the change in offset of the wheels, the wheels became more positive (inwards) in offset and therefore the bearings needed to be closer to the centre of the load?

The disk brake Defender has a different part number for the halfshafts, I understood there was a difference in length. Did you have to change your halfshafts (even the Maxi ones).

Is the track unchanged front to rear?

[steveG]

Just some questions,

About your comment that the closer bearing spacing puts more load on the bearings. I'm a bit confused, if the mass of the vehicle is unchanged where does the additional load come from?
And.
Could it be an artifact of the change in offset of the wheels, the wheels became more positive (inwards) in offset and therefore the bearings needed to be closer to the centre of the load?

The disk brake Defender has a different part number for the halfshafts, I understood there was a difference in length. Did you have to change your halfshafts (even the Maxi ones).

Is the track unchanged front to rear?

The bearing load thing I liken to two people of equal strength fighting over a stick. If one person has their hands widely spaced on either end of the stick and the other (second person) has them close together - then the second person can't control rotation of the stick as they don't have the leverage.
If both people are simply pulling the stick in opposite directions the hand spacing doesn't matter (like your static load comment).
That probably doesn't make sense to anyone but me :D

No change in halfshafts. The defender hubs are both narrower in the bearings spacing, and narrower from inner bearing to the drive flange face (hence the shorter shaft). The Defender drive flange may even be slightly thinner on the bolt flange which would also contribute to the shorter shafts.
The wheel mounting face remains the same dimension from the inner bearing on both hubs so track is the same between both.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks for that, and yes I understand the stick analogy.

So what you're saying about halfshafts, is that on my early Defender I can't use the same procedure unless I want to also change my halfshafts?

Diana

[steveG]

Thanks for that, and yes I understand the stick analogy.

So what you're saying about halfshafts, is that on my early Defender I can't use the same procedure unless I want to also change my halfshafts?

Diana

Would need to confirm 100%, but it should be easier for early Defender.

Pretty sure D1 hubs are the same F&R AFAIR, and same as Defender disc hubs - so you could use either.
Should just need to get Defender disc rear stubs, D1/Defender hubs and some discs (early defender rear and D1 might be the same but would need to check). Could possibly be some slight disc offset differences from what Murray posted above but that would be all.

Steve

[rijidij]

Was the tubed axle a part of the maxidrive kit?

Didiman

Yeah, my rear axle has the full Maxi treatment, tubing, diff lock, axles, drive flanges.

Cheers, Murray

[uninformed]

AFAIK, all drum braked defenders have the longer stubs, shafts and wider hubs. There are no rear disc 200tdi with long stubs etc. So in essence a early defender is very similar to a 110.

As ridji retained the same stubs and flanges, his shafts stay the same.

[rijidij]

..........Perhaps you might think of selling bracket kits...........

Didiman


+1!! :D


Another vote for a run of brackets! I'll even pay up front.


Hi
ill buy three sets


G'day guys,
I could do a run of brackets, but I should explain, they are not a 'one size fits all'.
As I explained in the thread the 12mm bracket has to be machined down in thickness to suit the offset of whatever combination of callipers, disk, hub you use.
For example, Steve needed ~10.5mm and mine worked out to ~9.5mm

So, if I was to supply these, you would need to be able to machine the 12mm bracket to suit unless you can work out the exact thickness you need for me to machine them.

The holes are straight off the laser cutter in the 12mm and the two bigger holes in the 16mm, but the smaller holes in the 16mm have to be drilled manually using the 12mm bracket as a jig as the laser can't cut them. All holes have to be tapped.
So, there is a little work to do to get them right, and although it's not difficult, it takes time (of which I have little to spare these days)

Looking at what the laser cutting cost, a set of brackets (both ends of axle) could be supplied, drilled but no machining or tapping for $80 per set. This would be non-profit and not through my business.
Machining would be extra, but only to cover my time.

Obviously it would be best to do them in one batch, so we'll see what interest we get and take it from there.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

AFAIK, all drum braked defenders have the longer stubs, shafts and wider hubs. There are no rear disc 200tdi with long stubs etc. So in essence a early defender is very similar to a 110.

As ridji retained the same stubs and flanges, his shafts stay the same.

I replaced my rear stubs with earlier County ones. The shaft length isn't affected. The difference is in the length of the bearing surface on the stubs and the type of thrust washer. The drum braked type (late County/early Defender) have a 10mm thick washer incorporating a seal where the early County has a 3mm washer.
You can see in this pic how the overall length is the same, but the shoulder where the thrust washer goes is machined back further on the drum stub. This also pushes the bearings in to a narrower spacing, not as narrow as a later Defender, but narrower than the early County bearings.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/748.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Stubs_zpse9c16c71.jpg.html)

[uninformed]

thanks, I was under the impression that there were only 2 different stubs, early long drum and later short disc.

[steveG]

It's likely that my 9.5mm should really be your 10.5mm, but it was "close enough". Its a backyard hack vs craftsman thing :p
Will see for sure when I do the set for my new diff.

If that's the case then probably the simplest way is for everyone to stick with the known working combination of parts and machine all the spacers to the same dimension.

We're all mates here, but it probably needs to be spelled out that its a brake mod and therefore requires people to sort out their own engineering/certification as applicable. I'd hate to see you doing a good deed for members and having it bite you on the bum.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

AFAIK, all drum braked defenders have the longer stubs, shafts and wider hubs. There are no rear disc 200tdi with long stubs etc. So in essence a early defender is very similar to a 110.

As ridji retained the same stubs and flanges, his shafts stay the same.I think the reason I'm confused is because I was looking at the Army disk brake retrofit done on the Perentie 110s, which use the same stub but use a unique hub and a calliper bracket that is a single flat plate without the cranking of the OEM bracket or the laminated one Rijidij has made.

The Army retrofit also use the four pot callipers off the front of an early Defender 90. What may be the difference in the Army hubs is that they have had the back side machined down to accommodate the flat bracket, bringing the calliper further inside the dish of the rim.

Do you actually have to fit the disk on the front of the stub axle where the backing plate used to fit? What purpose does it serve?

[steveG]

<snip>

Do you actually have to fit the disk on the front of the stub axle where the backing plate used to fit? What purpose does it serve?

You mean the one thats held on by the stub axle mount bolts?
If so, its a mud shield. Its a reasonably close fit inside the brake disc and meant to stop it filling up with rubbish.

No real reason you couldn't leave it out if you really wanted to - it doesn't contribute to the brake fit/function.

Steve

[isuzurover]

Apologies if it has been mentioned, but what is the diameter of the D1 pistons vs 110/130 rear calipers?

[steveG]

<snip>

For anyone who is sourcing D1 calipers to do a similar conversion, be aware that the early ones had a coarser thread on the bolts that mount the caliper to the bracket. Not the end of the world - just something to be aware of when sourcing parts or making brackets.
I'm not sure exactly when the changeover happened, but the ones I got from a '92 model were coarse thread, and the '97 model were fine thread.

Steve

To add to the above, I've just found that the mounting holes in the early D1 calipers are slightly smaller diameter too.
If you stick with the later calipers you'll at least keep some commonality with defender bits, as the caliper bolts are the same.

Steve

[rijidij]

To add to the above, I've just found that the mounting holes in the early D1 calipers are slightly smaller diameter too.
If you stick with the later calipers you'll at least keep some commonality with defender bits, as the caliper bolts are the same.

Steve

So that was the reason things didn't quite line up with those calipers. I presume you're talking about the PCD of the caliper mounting holes ?

Cheers, Murray

[steveG]

So that was the reason things didn't quite line up with those calipers. I presume you're talking about the PCD of the caliper mounting holes ?

Cheers, Murray

No, not the PCD - the actual hole diameter. Early ones are ~11mm and later ones are 12mm.

Steve

[uninformed]

Metric vs imperial????

[rijidij]

No, not the PCD - the actual hole diameter. Early ones are ~11mm and later ones are 12mm.

Steve

So do you know what thread the earlier one's are ? The later D1 caliper bolts are M12 x 1.25.

Cheers, Murray

[steveG]

Checked tonight and they are 7/16 UNF, so Uninformed was on the money suggesting it might be an imperial/metric issue.
I'm surprised that they were still using imperial threads in the early '90s though.

Obviously being UNF they are still fine so my statement earlier about them being coarse thread was incorrect. Think I was getting myself confused with County front calipers (which ARE coarse). Basic fact is the same though - early and late D1 bolts are different ;)

Steve

[isuzutoo-eh]

Just a bit of trivia, on my County the disc brakes use the imperial system for fastenings whilst the drums are metric...
Land Rover logic at work...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Has anyone ever used the ventilated front rotors for a rear conversion?

I know that when I changed my RRc fronts from solid to ventilated the improvement was noticable, but it could have just been the change to the later callipers making the difference.

[isuzurover]

Has anyone ever used the ventilated front rotors for a rear conversion?

I know that when I changed my RRc fronts from solid to ventilated the improvement was noticable, but it could have just been the change to the later callipers making the difference.

No, but I know some people have used RRC solid front rotors and front calipers for conversions.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Ben

IMHO if we're going down this rear disk conversion deal, we may as well get the best we can, hence the thoughts on ventilated rears.

The Army used Land Rover 90 front callipers for their rear disk retrofit. I'm assuming the 90 calipers are 4 pot with smaller pistons than the 110/120 front callipers. Any one know the differences?

Are the 300Tdi Defender 90 front callipers the same as the ventilated rotor 110/130 callipers?

[rijidij]

Well, we finally sorted out the caliper brackets. What we ended up with is a kit as you can see in the pictures below. We found some minor variation between vehicles and even from one end of an axle to the other, so instead of the bracket being made up of 16mm and 9mm, it's 16mm, 8mm and two shims, 1.6mm and 1mm. This allows adjustment to centre the caliper to the disk. There's also two dust shields included.
The only other things you will need to get is four M10 x 1.5 x 45 Grade 12 bolts.

The kit will be $100 + $23.60 postage Australia wide. This works out to less than half the price of genuine Defender caliper brackets, and saves the hassle of trying to match things up if you use the suggested parts as mentioned in this thread.
This price is non profit, just to cover the cost of laser cutting and my time for drilling and tapping threads.



I should point out, any of these kits sold through this thread are not a product of my business (Rijidij Off Road) and I accept no responsibility for the fitting and engineering requirements of your particular state. I have made these kits simply to help out anyone wanting to do this conversion.

If you would like to buy a set, send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll send payment details.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1260.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Caliper-Mount-Kit_zpscaf226c4.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1261.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/County/Rear%20disk%20conversion/Caliper-Mount-Kit-1_zps2435611d.jpg.html)

[rijidij]

It looks like this kit might work with other combinations of stubs, hubs etc.
SteveG tried fitting a Defender stub axle and a D1 hub. It worked out that the 16mm main bracket and a 1.6mm shim gave the correct offset to centre the caliper to the disk.
So, having the brackets adjustable might allow for various combinations, depending what parts you have laying around, but remember the two caliper mounting holes at the top of the 16mm main bracket are drilled and tapped to suit the later type calipers with the M12 x 1.25 bolts @ 82.5mm centres.

Cheers, Murray

[123rover50]

I will take three sets.
PM sent.
Keith

[steveG]

It looks like this kit might work with other combinations of stubs, hubs etc.
SteveG tried fitting a Defender stub axle and a D1 hub. It worked out that the 16mm main bracket and a 1.6mm shim gave the correct offset to centre the caliper to the disk.
So, having the brackets adjustable might allow for various combinations, depending what parts you have laying around, but remember the two caliper mounting holes at the top of the 16mm main bracket are drilled and tapped to suit the later type calipers with the M12 x 1.25 bolts @ 82.5mm centres.

Cheers, Murray

Some more info on that..
I used the FTC1740 Defender stubs, and D1/Defender hubs with D1 rear discs. Used BX110071M (M10x35 grade10.9) bolts through the stub into the caliper bracket. Sorry, but I don't recall if I also used them with nuts for the 2 holes that only go through the stub and housing or if I re-used some original stub bolts.

The reason I went this way rather than sticking to County stubs and front hubs was that I also needed axles as one of mine had a twisted spline. I managed to pick up some slightly used Defender Maxidrive axles and I already had the D1 hubs so it worked out cheaper for me to convert than buy new upgraded county axles.

Steve

[isuzutoo-eh]

Thanks for making the adapters available Murray, they arrived this morning :)
Now to accumulate the rest of the bits and talk to an engineer...

[Bush65]

Just some questions,

About your comment that the closer bearing spacing puts more load on the bearings. I'm a bit confused, if the mass of the vehicle is unchanged where does the additional load come from?
And.
Could it be an artifact of the change in offset of the wheels, the wheels became more positive (inwards) in offset and therefore the bearings needed to be closer to the centre of the load?

The disk brake Defender has a different part number for the halfshafts, I understood there was a difference in length. Did you have to change your halfshafts (even the Maxi ones).

Is the track unchanged front to rear?
With regard to the question about whether the bearing load is higher with narrower bearing spacing, it is something that often comes up particularly in discussions of rear disk conversions:

If each bearing is equi-spaced either side of the wheel centre, then the component of the radial bearing load due to vehicle weight will be equally shared by both bearings and won't change if the spacing is wide or narrow.

If the bearings aren't equi-spaced with respect to the wheel centre, then the loading due to weight will be proportioned to the offset of each from the wheel centre - the closest bearing having the greater proportion of load. It is not the spacing between bearings, but the ratio of the offsets that makes any difference.

What does make a big difference to the bearing load between wide and narrow spaced bearings is the horizontal side load on the tyre. Usually this is the centripital force when negotiating a curve in the road, but there are other situations such as side slopes.

For sake of example, to get some idea how the spacing affects bearing load, assume the mass on one wheel is 600 kg and the horizontal side loading to be half the weight.

Assume the inner bearing is 50 mm inside the wheel centre. Note this is an approximate guess, not from measurement.

Assume the outer bearing is 50 mm outside the wheel centre for the narrow hub and 60 mm outside for the wide hub. Again approximate guesses not measurements.

Further assume the height from the road to the stub axles is 400 mm.

The total radial load on each bearing is made up of three components, one from the vertical gravitational load (weight), another from the side load acting on the tyre at road level. The third, which I'm going to ignore here, because I expect it to make little difference between narrow and wide hubs for the sake of this discussion, is from the tractive force at the tyre.

Take the outer bearing to be on our left, and the side load to be acting toward the right. e.g. looking at left rear wheel from behind.

For our mass of 600 kg, the weight is 600 kg x 9.81 m/s^2 = 5.886 kN
where 9.81 m/s^ is acceleration due to gravity

And the side load we are going to use is 0.5 x 5.886 kN = 2.943 kN

Start with the narrow hub:

Find the radial load due to weight on the inner bearing:
Wi = 5.886 kN x 50 mm / 100 mm = 2.943 kN vert down
where 50 mm is horizontal distance from outer bearing to centre of wheel
and 100 mm is spacing between bearings

Find the radial load due to weight on the outer bearing:
Wo = 5.886 kN - 2.943 kN = 2.943 kN vert down

Find the radial bearing load due to tyre side load on the inner bearing:
Vi = 2.943 kN x 400 mm / 100 mm = 11.772 kN vert up

Find the radial bearing load due to tyre side load on the outer bearing:
Vo = - Vi i.e. = 11.772 kN vert down

Then the resultant vertical radial load on the inner bearing is:
Ri = 11.772 kN up - 2.943 kN down = 8.829 kN vert up

And the total vertical radial load on the outer bearing is:
Ro = 11.772 kN down + 2.943 kN down = 14.715 kN vert down

Note if the side load direction was reversed, i.e. right to left the results for the inner and outer bearing load would be swapped.

Now for the wide hub:

Find the radial load due to weight on the inner bearing:
Wi = 5.886 kN x 60 mm / 110 mm = 3.5316 kN vert down
where 60 mm is horizontal distance from outer bearing to centre of wheel
and 110 mm is spacing between bearings

Find the radial load due to weight on the outer bearing:
Wo = 5.886 kN - 3.5316 kN = 2.3544 kN vert down

Find the radial bearing load due to tyre side load on the inner bearing:
Vi = 2.943 kN x 400 mm / 110 mm = 10.7018 kN vert up

Find the radial bearing load due to tyre side load on the outer bearing:
Vo = - Vi i.e. = 10.7018 kN vert down

Then the resultant vertical radial load on the inner bearing is:
Ri = 10.7018 kN up - 3.5316 kN down = 7.1702 kN vert up

And the total vertical radial load on the outer bearing is:
Ro = 10.7018 kN down + 2.3544 kN down = 13.0562 kN vert down

Note if the side load direction was reversed
Ri = 10.7018 kN down + 3.5316 kN down = 14.2334 kN vert down

Ro = 10.7018 kN up - 2.3544 kN down = 8.3474 kN vert up

However we need to include the axial load on the bearing due to the side load on the tyre.

For the case when the side load is to the right, this is imposed upon the inner bearing:

For the narrow hub the load combination is 8.829 kN radial with 2.943 kN axial at inner bearing, and 14.715 kN radial at outer bearing

For the wide hub the load combination is 7.1702 kN radial with 2.943 kN axial at inner bearing, and 13.0562 kN radial at outer bearing

If the side load is reversed the axial load is carried by the outer bearing:

For the narrow hub the load combination is 8.829 kN radial with 2.943 kN axial at outer bearing, and 14.715 kN radial at inner bearing

For the wide hub the load combination is 8.3474 kN radial with 2.943 kN axial at outer bearing, and 14.2334 kN radial at inner bearing

[Vern]

Thanks for making the adapters available Murray, they arrived this morning :)
Now to accumulate the rest of the bits and talk to an engineer...what are you chasing, may have some bits and happy to send your way:)

[yt110]

Got my adapters today,great kit,thanks Murray

Jim.

[the_preacher1973]

Many thanks for organising this Murray. Just sent through a PM requesting a set. Ignore the first PM. The computer decided to send it while I was still typing.

Regards,

Michael

[rijidij]

Well, the adapter kits have proved quite popular. I had 10 sets laser cut and I have one set left at the time of this post.

I can have more cut, but the laser cutters have a minimum charge, so to keep the cost to a minimum I need to order 10 sets at a time.

Please let me know if you want a set and I'll order them when we get sufficient numbers.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

All of the first batch is now gone.

Cheers, Murray

[mark2]

Regarding boosters and master cylinders, does anyone have an insight as to whether the PBR master/booster as fitted to 110 Perenties needs to be changed when doing a rear disc conversion on a Perentie? Did the army change these when doing the rear disc retrofit?

[steveG]

My understanding is the Disco booster has a dual diaphragm (AFAIK), which in practice gives a much lighter pedal for a particular brake pressure compared to the standard County one. The input rod is also a perfect length for the County pedal box.
I don't know how that relates to actual line pressures, or how it fits with the 6x6 brake system - but can confirm that it works really well on a 110 :)

Steve

[rijidij]

Got the first kit , thanks Murray.
Now I am confused about boosters.
Why do we change to the disco one?
Is there a difference in the line pressure?
Does anyone know what the line pressure of these boosters is?
Does the front and rear run the same pressure or is one greater?

On the 6x6 I have no room for the mastervac so am running a VH40 for the front discs and a VH44 on each back axle. I now know this is not enough as the 44 only puts out 900 odd psi and the 40 does 1400 psi or so.
I was wondering how this pressure compares with the original boosters.

Help appreciated.
Keith

I'm not familiar with the boosters you're running, so can't be of much help.
Just to back up what Steve said, the D1 booster seems to have a lot more vac assist making for a easier application. The brakes have a bit (lot) more 'bite' with less pressure on the pedal.

Cheers, Murray

[Bearman]

Regarding boosters and master cylinders, does anyone have an insight as to whether the PBR master/booster as fitted to 110 Perenties needs to be changed when doing a rear disc conversion on a Perentie? Did the army change these when doing the rear disc retrofit?

Sorry for late reply mark, I missed your post. No change in mc. The PBR one is the same on drum or disc models.

[mark2]

Sorry for late reply mark, I missed your post. No change in mc. The PBR one is the same on drum or disc models.

Is the PBR m/c an improvement on the civvy mc's?

[Bearman]

Is the PBR m/c an improvement on the civvy mc's?

I couldn't say whether it's an improvement or not, but just part of the Australian content requirement for the tender when they purchased the Perenties. Although they are easy to find as they were also on Fords and Commodores about the same vintage.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Two things, with the 3 individual in line units, you probably need a vacuum acumulator tank so you have more than a single brake application before you lose your vacuum assist.

With the weight of the 6x6 what about trying to find some of the VH90 for the rears and a VH91 for the front?

[rijidij]

There's a D1 booster on Ebay if anyone is looking for one for their conversion.

Landrover Discovery 94 To 98 Brake Booster And Master (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Landrover-Discovery-94-To-98-Brake-Booste-And-Master-Cylender-/231027049981?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35ca4905fd&_uhb=1)

Cheers, Murray

[yt110]

I have fitted this conversion and using the county front hubs it reduced the track by 10mm per side, this is because of the difference between the face that the drive flange bolts to and the flange that the wheel bolts to.

As far as I can find out the perenti conversion uses a special hub (AYG7305) that measures 14.5 mm the same as the drum hub with the drum on.

Longer wheel studs and a 10mm spacer would return the track back to STD, for clearance between the tyre and the top spring mount.

I would like to hear what others have found.

Cheers Jim.

[isuzurover]

I have fitted this conversion and using the county front hubs it reduced the track by 10mm per side, this is because of the difference between the face that the drive flange bolts to and the flange that the wheel bolts to.

As far as I can find out the perenti conversion uses a special hub (AYG7305) that measures 14.5 mm the same as the drum hub with the drum on.

Longer wheel studs and a 10mm spacer would return the track back to STD, for clearance between the tyre and the top spring mount.

I would like to hear what others have found.

Cheers Jim.

Perentie rear disc hub that I owned...
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept2010_HS_CF_122.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept2010_HS_CF_121.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept2010_HS_CF_120.jpg

The 3rd pic compares a defender rear hub to the perentie rear hub. The county (one-ten) front hub is different again.

[steveG]

Interesting. I've got both a drum braked and a converted diff in the shed, so will have a look tonight.
I'm running 0 offset wheels with 255/85's so have never had any rubbing issues.

I'm currently running one with Defender hubs/stubs, so I'll try and measure that too and see how it compares.

Was rear track the same on all 80's/90's 110's ??

Steve

[flagg]

hmm picking the rear hub is the part that is holding me up for doing this.. watching with interest.

Why are front ones used rather than rear ones?

[rijidij]

...................Why are front ones used rather than rear ones?

Basically because the County front hubs have the wider bearing spacing and will go straight on to the rear County stub axle (earlier models)
We tried to work out this conversion using parts that are reasonably easy to obtain, new or second hand, and also minimum of changes, for example, retaining the rear stub axles.
You can refer back to the start of this thread for part numbers etc.

Cheers, Murray

[yt110]

Murray (rijidij)

I hope you haven't taken my post the wrong way, I and others I am sure, are very grateful for the work you have done, its just something I had found that I though may be useful.

Regards Jim

[flagg]

Basically because the County front hubs have the wider bearing spacing and will go straight on to the rear County stub axle (earlier models)

Thanks - this was the bit that I was missing!

[rijidij]

Murray (rijidij)

I hope you haven't taken my post the wrong way, I and others I am sure, are very grateful for the work you have done, its just something I had found that I though may be useful.

Regards Jim

Not at all Jim, no problem,
You never know what parts us Landy owners have lying around the shed, so any alternative ideas are welcome.
Hopefully this thread will be a good start for anyone doing a conversion, but it's by no means the only way of going about it.

Cheers, Murray

[steveG]

I've just been out to the shed and run a tape measure over some diffs to check the dimension between the hub faces (that the wheel rim sits against).

County diff converted with county front hubs: ~1532mm
County diff converted with FTC1740 Defender stubs, and narrow bearing spaced D1/Defender hubs: ~1555mm
County front diff (standard): ~1555mm

Using County front hubs is definitely about 10mm narrower per side (as Jim highlighted earlier).

For anyone with concerns about how this affects the vehicle handling etc, I've run the County front hub converted setup on mine for around 20K km's and never noticed any difference apart from the hugely improved braking :) Keeping in mind thats with 0 offset rims and 255/85-16's....

I'm now running the narrow bearing D1/Defender hubs (so back to original dimensions), but only because I needed axles and I got a good deal on some Defender Maxi-drive ones. I had to fit the Defender hubs/stubs to suit the shorter axle lengths.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Steve

My Defender is a 1991 drum brake rear, the middle axle is a drum brake through-drive Rover diff. I have bought a D1 maxidrive rear axle which I was going to combine into my middle diff and use the maxi-axles, hubs and rotors.

The rear axle is a drum brake Salisbury.

What hubs do I need on the rear axle to match the middle diff and will the rear axles be the same track as the '91 Defender front?

Diana :confused:

[steveG]

From what I can work out with the bits I've got here, D1/Defender hubs and the FTC1740 Defender stubs.
I'm not sure if your current sals axles are early long ones or the later short ones but you'll need short for that hub setup.
There are axle lengths listed on the Ashcroft site so just pull one and measure.

Steve

[flagg]

When you convert to rear discs I assume you keep the er "brake thing" on the firewall?

:wasntme:

[Judo]

When you convert to rear discs I assume you keep the er "brake thing" on the firewall?

:wasntme:
Have you read the first page of the thread yet? :p

[flagg]

Have you read the first page of the thread yet? :p

..yes:confused:

[rijidij]

When you convert to rear discs I assume you keep the er "brake thing" on the firewall?

:wasntme:

Are you talking about the pressure valve, splitter thingomajig where the brake pipes connect ????

Yes, just leave it there and connect the new pipe from the master.

Cheers, Murray

[Judo]

edit: Murry has it?

The only thing I could think of on the firewall is the master cylinder!

[rijidij]

I just drove to Sydney and back with a loaded trailer behind the County. This is the first time I've really given the new brakes a good workout. It was nice having brakes that grab harder the more you push the pedal instead of hoping you'll be able to stop :D

Cheers, Murray

[steveG]

I recall some discussion a while back about the valve thingy on the firewall.
My recollection is that there are at least couple of different ones, but I don't recall if the function is the same.
Pretty sure the main purpose is to isolate a failed circuit so you still retain some braking, and that they aren't a proportioning valve so no effect when brakes are operating normally.

I've had a search and can't find the thread I'm thinking of. Think it was a discussion on functionality, and an issue with leaks.
Happy to be educated if I've got it wrong :)

Edit: And yes - mine is still connected.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think you're talking about the shuttle valve sometimes called the brake balance valve. Unfortunatley it doesn't actually block the failed circuit, it only illuminates a warning light on the dash, which one hopes is still working.

[rijidij]

I think you're talking about the shuttle valve sometimes called the brake balance valve. Unfortunatley it doesn't actually block the failed circuit, it only illuminates a warning light on the dash, which one hopes is still working.

If the light's not working, I'm sure there will be some other obvious indications that your brakes aren't working :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not everyone is all that technical, how many people have you known driving with their brakes metal to metal or the fan belts squealing without doing anything about it?

[flagg]

they aren't a proportioning valve so no effect when brakes are operating normally.

I've had a search and can't find the thread I'm thinking of. Think it was a discussion on functionality, and an issue with leaks.
Happy to be educated if I've got it wrong :)

Edit: And yes - mine is still connected.

Steve

Thanks Steve - that is what I was wondering. I was looking for that thread too and couldn't find it..

[rijidij]

Not everyone is all that technical, how many people have you known driving with their brakes metal to metal or the fan belts squealing without doing anything about it?

Too true........also, no oil on the dipstick, no water in the radiator, no tread on their tyres etc etc etc :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just out of interest, has anyone done the measurements using old two door Rangie hubs? (I am assuming they will have the same bearing spacings as 110 County hubs.)

[uninformed]

Just out of interest, has anyone done the measurements using old two door Rangie hubs? (I am assuming they will have the same bearing spacings as 110 County hubs.)

dont assume, apparently there are 2 versions of the 110 hub, BEFORE the Tdi narrow bearing hub.... :confused:

[rijidij]

dont assume, apparently there are 2 versions of the 110 hub, BEFORE the Tdi narrow bearing hub.... :confused:

I think all the 110 front hubs are the wider spacing, but there are two different rear (drum) hubs, wide spacing on earlier 110's with slotted keyway in the stub, and narrower spacing on late 110's/early Defenders with the flat machined on the stub, this spacing is narrower than the earlier hubs, but wider than later Defenders which have the very narrow spacing.

Cheers, Murray

[Lotz-A-Landies]

dont assume, apparently there are 2 versions of the 110 hub, BEFORE the Tdi narrow bearing hub.... :confused:I know that the very early 2 door rangie hubs don't take the LR alloy rims, but I have access to a pair of rangie assemblies and am wondering about using their hubs to get the '91 Defender track correct. Just thought someone may know.

If I'm correct the '91 Defer has the same CV's as the 110 models, so likely the same front hubs.

[uninformed]

I know that the very early 2 door rangie hubs don't take the LR alloy rims, but I have access to a pair of rangie assemblies and am wondering about using their hubs to get the '91 Defender track correct. Just thought someone may know.

If I'm correct the '91 Defer has the same CV's as the 110 models, so likely the same front hubs.

not really sure what alloys fitting has to do with the rear disc conversion?? If your 91 Defender has a track width of 1551 wms-wms, then I think you will find that the early RR hubs will not make your rear drum Sals be the same, but 16-20mm short over all as the 110 front hubs are....

[THE 109]

Early rangie hubs can have problems fitting alloys due to the larger outside diameter of the hub, only a by a small amount which can be machined down relatively easy.

86 vogue alloy wheels wouldn't fit a 81 hub until it was machined.

Eric

[Bush65]

When I first bought my 120 (MY 87), I swapped the front hubs to the rear, and fitted a pair of early rangie front hubs in their place on the front. I did this, not only to convert the rear from drum to disc, but the rangie hubs had been converted to vented discs.

The moral is that those early rangie hubs had the same bearing spacing as the 110/120.

However the rangie hubs I used were the early ones that have imperial bolts and a slightly different pitch circle for the drive flange, and the drive flange from the 110/120 wouldn't fit. Ashcroft, etal make suitable flanges for these early hubs to be used with 110 half shafts or cv's.

It still remains to be confirmed if early rangie rear hubs will give the correct wheel track.

I have to say that I have read many threads about converting drum rears to disc, using either early front hubs or later hubs and stubs, but my memory is that this is the only one that revealed the issue of the narrowing of the track if using early front hubs. I'm guessing that most of those other threads (non Aus) were for peeps with 90's, and they don't notice a problem with clearance between the tyre and rear spring perch.

[uninformed]

John, Eric confirmed that the early RRC hubs do not give the correct wheel track when fitted to a pre 87 stub axle. They appear to give the same result as the county front hub.

[steveG]

I've just been out to the shed and run a tape measure over some diffs to check the dimension between the hub faces (that the wheel rim sits against).

County diff converted with county front hubs: ~1332mm
County diff converted with FTC1740 Defender stubs, and narrow bearing spaced D1/Defender hubs: ~1555mm
County front diff (standard): ~1555mm

Using County front hubs is definitely about 10mm narrower per side (as Jim highlighted earlier).

For anyone with concerns about how this affects the vehicle handling etc, I've run the County front hub converted setup on mine for around 20K km's and never noticed any difference apart from the hugely improved braking :) Keeping in mind thats with 0 offset rims and 255/85-16's....

I'm now running the narrow bearing D1/Defender hubs (so back to original dimensions), but only because I needed axles and I got a good deal on some Defender Maxi-drive ones. I had to fit the Defender hubs/stubs to suit the shorter axle lengths.

Steve

yt110 has pointed out a typo in my post above.
The county front hub dimension should be 1532mm (not 1332mm).

Too long ago for me to edit the original post, but Ive PM'd one of the mods to see if it can be amended.

Steve

[Bush65]

John, Eric confirmed that the early RRC hubs do not give the correct wheel track when fitted to a pre 87 stub axle. They appear to give the same result as the county front hub.
OK, but it hasn't been mentioned in this thread, until your post just now.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't know if this is of any relevance but one of our members on this forum is making disk brake conversion kits for series Land Rovers. He is fitting the rotors to the back of the original series hubs and turning out the centre of the old drums to restore the original track. It is not considered a spacer because it is an original part.

This system has been approved by an engineer.

It would certainly save some of the hassles.

[steveG]

I don't know if this is of any relevance but one of our members on this forum is making disk brake conversion kits for series Land Rovers. He is fitting the rotors to the back of the original series hubs and turning out the centre of the old drums to restore the original track. It is not considered a spacer because it is an original part.

This system has been approved by an engineer.

It would certainly save some of the hassles.

Not sure what you're getting at there...

Are you suggesting using one of his kits, or just using the idea and fitting rotors to the original drum braked hubs, and then using the *non-spacer* to sort out the track?

Guess it depends on your definition of hassles. Both of those options have a high hassle level in my book ;)

IMO the least hassle options to get rear discs and keep original track are:
1. Disc conversion using Defender hubs/axles.
2. Swap in a complete Defender disc braked assy.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not sure what you're getting at there...

Are you suggesting using one of his kits, or just using the idea and fitting rotors to the original drum braked hubs, and then using the *non-spacer* to sort out the track? <No talking about machining and drilling the back of the standard drum brake Defender hubs to accept the rotor.>

Guess it depends on your definition of hassles. Both of those options have a high hassle level in my book ;)

IMO the least hassle options to get rear discs and keep original track are:
1. Disc conversion using Defender hubs/axles. <4 X Hi-Tough, Ashcroft or JacMac axle halfshafts make the conversion much more expensive.>
2. Swap in a complete Defender disc braked assy. <Might be possible if my intermediate assembly was a standard assembly, but it's not>

SteveIn Red

[isuzurover]

... fitting the rotors to the back of the original series hubs ...

I have never been a huge fan of that method. It requires machining off the supporting ribs, and series hubs (edit and 110 drum hubs) are a lot thinner (where it counts) than coiler/disc hubs.

I know a few people who have been running similar setups for ~10 years, however I wouldn't like to use it on a vehicle carrying heavy loads over corrugated tracks (for example).

I would certainly *never* use that method on a coiler.

[rijidij]

..................one of our members on this forum is making disk brake conversion kits for series Land Rovers.........

Is there a thread on this, I would love disks on the front of my 2A but haven't looked in to it yet.

Cheers, Murray

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Is there a thread on this, I would love disks on the front of my 2A but haven't looked in to it yet.

Cheers, MurrayHi Murray

Its "cookey" http://www.aulro.com/.../Series Disc Brake Conversion I Did it My Way (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/169784-series-disc-brake-conversion-i-did-my-way.html) he is onto version 2, which will enable ventilated disks front and rear (60:40 bias) and will be able to be fitted on any swivel housing. Previously it was only one of the four different castings and required an exchange.

You need to have SIII hubs and a six cylinder pedal box to exchange, or Gary will supply at additional cost.

Unlike the Zeuss and Hastee conversions you can use standard Land Rover wheel rims.

Arrrgh
Diana

[uninformed]

I don't know if this is of any relevance but one of our members on this forum is making disk brake conversion kits for series Land Rovers. He is fitting the rotors to the back of the original series hubs and turning out the centre of the old drums to restore the original track. It is not considered a spacer because it is an original part.

This system has been approved by an engineer.

It would certainly save some of the hassles.

And also taking into account your other reply in red:

It appeared you were talking in generalities, but are actually taking about your particular requirements for your 6x6.....

What axles are you running now? Do you already have HD aftermarket. I ask because you factor in the cost of these against, yet not for your idea of easy....

Its not only the hub that needs machining, but the drum or a spacer made up as you already said. How much would this cost for 4 hubs and spacers.....

I thought your middle diff was a Rover type???

What about the idea of an 8-10mm spacer in between the axle flange and the stub axle. Yes you would need new axles, but if upgrading the assemably the same time as converting, getting the axles made 8-10mm longer wouldnt be hard. Plus the fact that the stock axles could apparently use some more engagement at the diff end.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

And also taking into account your other reply in red:

It appeared you were talking in generalities, but are actually taking about your particular requirements for your 6x6..... < Both, wanting to hear opinions of others, understanding that my conversion has added cmplexity and at least double the cost. >

What axles are you running now? Do you already have HD aftermarket. I ask because you factor in the cost of these against, yet not for your idea of easy.... < It's currently running standard axle halfshafts, but have a Maxidrive to fit to the middle diff and therefore changing lengths requires replacing the halfshafts. Swapping in a Defender disk assembly adds even more cost. >

Its not only the hub that needs machining, but the drum or a spacer made up as you already said. How much would this cost for 4 hubs and spacers..... < Part of my collection lives with cookey's collection, so machining hubs and drums is less of a problem/cost than finding correct hubs and halfshafts. >

I thought your middle diff was a Rover type??? < A very special Rover diff with power-divider and through-drive. >

What about the idea of an 8-10mm spacer in between the axle flange and the stub axle. Yes you would need new axles, but if upgrading the assemably the same time as converting, getting the axles made 8-10mm longer wouldnt be hard. < I don't know if you have ever has special halfshafts made, but I have and they are more expensive than standard length axles, also a problem with delays when you break them > Plus the fact that the stock axles could apparently use some more engagement at the diff end.Why would you ever buy standard axles when HD are available? It doesnt make sense to me.

[uninformed]

Why would you ever buy standard axles when HD are available? It doesnt make sense to me.

I read your reply like needing new shafts was a killer for the way of getting the OEM track width back. But since you are going to upgrade anyway, whats the difference?

How can custom axles be a big difference in price. Its not like they are cnc'ing these all day long and have to write a new programme, Some still do the profiling on a lathe. Its only 10mm so its not going to stuff up their quantities out of stock supplies.

If your center diff is a special hybrid, then chances are its going to need something unique. And I thought you had issues with the MD locker fitting in the oppostie side for your centre diff and was going to require new half shafts anyway

Sourcing the hubs and drums isnt the cost is it, anyone converting the drum Sals would already have these on hand, its the machining that is, maybe not for you but will be for alot of others out there.

:confused:

maybe the easiest thing for you would be to source some AYG7305 hubs?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The specials I had done cost about $200 more each than off the shelf Maxis.

The reality is that I would prefer not to swap halfshafts, if I have to then it will be HD. Its not an argument that I was going to swap anyway, I wasn't, but if I have to then it will be HD. 4 standard axles is also expensive, but not quite as much 4 HD
... How can custom axles be a big difference in price. Its not like they are cnc'ing these all day long and have to write a new programme, Some still do the profiling on a lathe. Its only 10mm so its not going to stuff up their quantities out of stock supplies. < Because they were very special specials with an ENV spline at the diff end and Stage 1 CV splines at the other. It is however my only experience of having specials made and there was probably a lot of swarf/waste owing the the O.D. of the ENV spline. >

If your center diff is a special hybrid, then chances are its going to need something unique. And I thought you had issues with the MD locker fitting in the oppostie side for your centre diff and was going to require new half shafts anyway < According to MR Automotive I can't have the MD locker on the long side, so it will go in the front, but I can still, maybe, use the D1 Maxi halfshafts in the intermediate axle. >

....

maybe the easiest thing for you would be to source some AYG7305 hubs? < I have been trying to find 4 of the things for over 12 months, hence other options now..>

[flagg]

Getting the replacement brake line made up.. is the size and thread of the end that goes into the valve on the firewall the same as the to be fitted Disco master cylinder? Or is there an identifier that I can give the brake place to have it made up?

Of course I can remove it and take the line along with the new master cylinder to the brake place but as the 110 is currently my primary mode of transport if there is an easier way I'll take it. :)

[steveG]

Yes, valve end is same as the disco M/C end.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Spent the afternoon playing with hubs and stub axles.

My Defender has the same narrow bearing spacing as the Disco 1 hubs and the stub axles are the same dimensions on the bearing side as each other. As has been indicated above the D1 hub will give a 10mm narrower track* per side, so need spacers between the axle housing and stub axle.

Talking to Gary (cookey) we can make a 10mm spacer that will cup the axle housing the same as the original stub and reduce it so the stub fits over the spacer. These spacers will also be used as the caliper mounts, so all looks go for 6 x Defender ventilated rotors and non OEM 4 pot calipers.

Will have to bite the bullet and get 10mm longer half-shafts, not a problem for the rear sals as am fitting a Maxidrive to the rear so will option it with the longer halfshafts.

The intermediate axle is more of a problem because the Disco1 Maxi as different spline to the Rover hemisphere, so cant re-use the maxi half-shafts (which are 15mm longer than the Defender ones anyway).

* Original Defender hub to hub 1560mm, using D1 hubs 1540mm.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Is the 10mm or so the difference between a County 110 flange and longer splines and a later Defender flange with shorter splines? Or am I misreading something?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Mark

My Defender has the narrow bearing spacings, so am assuming its not the same as the wider bearing spacings on the earlier 110s.

When I sat the drum brake hub on the floor next to the Disco 1 hub there was about 8mm difference in height at the wheel face, this difference would be the thickness of the drum. Then I sat the disco hub on the Defender stub axle and measured across the axle assembly (1 drum 1 disk hub) and the measurement was 1550mm or 10mm less than the original taken 10 min before.

Diana

[flagg]

does the narrower track effect the flanges? Even though I had a maxi-drive, I have the standard flanges (which are pretty worn out). I called MR today but it seems there are two versions - Disk and drum.

So.. Talking to Murray today, he said that his Drum style flanges that were fitted before hand still fitted after.. But I don't know exactly what the differences are, however I think it is the length of the splines.

Anyone have any ideas?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Mark

Was just re-reading this thread, what I didn't measure was the height of the two hubs at the flange face. While I am assuming the halfshafts will need to be 10mm longer I haven't actually measured them.

There is also the change in length when you fit Maxi-flanges.

Will make this a task for the weekend.

Diana

[flagg]

There is also the change in length when you fit Maxi-flanges.


I thought this too, but speaking with Murray his fitted before and after on a 110 with a maxi-drive locker and the early-type stub shaft and front hub combination.

[steveG]

does the narrower track effect the flanges? Even though I had a maxi-drive, I have the standard flanges (which are pretty worn out). I called MR today but it seems there are two versions - Disk and drum.

So.. Talking to Murray today, he said that his Drum style flanges that were fitted before hand still fitted after.. But I don't know exactly what the differences are, however I think it is the length of the splines.

Anyone have any ideas?

Assuming you are talking about converting your County, forget about Diana's references to extended custom axles etc on the 6x6 as I think its confusing things.
In my experience the only practical way to compare the different setups is to mount them properly on appropriate stub axles and then measure the overall dimensions. With the variations in the different hubs and stubs I found it too confusing just trying to measure things individually.
Some hub/stub combinations just don't work (even though they look like they do when you sit them together roughly).

If using you are using County front hubs (ie end up with 20mm total narrower track) then you need early (long) axles and thick flanges.
If using D1/Defender disc hubs and stubs which give original track, you need later (short) axles and thin flanges.

There may be variations on the actual lengths of the axles with aftermarket stuff. From what I've read, Maxi created the longer spline "X" axles, and I'm not sure if that was a physically longer axle, but you need to use the "X" flanges AFAIK.
Largely irrelevant though, as the bottom line is there are only 2 general types of axles - early (long) and late (short). Keep it at that level and its simple.

Arrangements I've physically run:
County front hubs, FRC3132 stubs, standard (long) axles, standard (thick) flanges. ~20mm narrower track than standard.
County front hubs, FRC3132 stubs, standard (long) axles, generic aftermarket (thick) heavy duty flanges (not maxi/hi-tough/ashcroft). ~20mm narrower track than standard.
D1 hubs, FTC1740 stubs, Maxi "X" defender (short) axles and matching flanges. Standard track.

Edit: BTW - there is a difference in locating diameter between thick and thin flanges, so putting thin flanges on hubs that are meant to have thick ones isn't a practical option for mix/matching.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Assuming you are talking about converting your County, forget about Diana's references to extended custom axles etc on the 6x6 as I think its confusing things.
In my experience the only practical way to compare the different setups is to mount them properly on appropriate stub axles and then measure the overall dimensions. With the variations in the different hubs and stubs I found it too confusing just trying to measure things individually.
...
SteveSteve

That is what I did, I fitted D1 hubs to my drum brake Defender stubs and ended up with 10mm narrower track per side but I'm assuming the axles would have been the standard length Defender.

Is there two different offsets of Disco 1 hubs (in the narrow bearing spacings)?

Diana

[flagg]

Thanks Steve. Do you know how long a long axle is? Mine have a 'H' on the ends and are maxi drive ones.

[steveG]

Thanks Steve. Do you know how long a long axle is? Mine have a 'H' on the ends and are maxi drive ones.

Not sure about Maxidrive ones, but I recall seeing an axle dimension chart on the Ashcrofts site.

Edit: Here you go.. Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=15)

Steve

[steveG]

Steve

That is what I did, I fitted D1 hubs to my drum brake Defender stubs and ended up with 10mm narrower track per side but I'm assuming the axles would have been the standard length Defender.

Is there two different offsets of Disco 1 hubs (in the narrow bearing spacings)?

Diana

All the D1 hubs I've got here are the same.
If your defender drum stubs are the type with the thick spacer/seal land (like the on on the right in this photo) they don't go with D1 hubs. Only useful for drums.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/748.jpg
EDIT: Stub on left is FRC3132, one on right is FRC8540

To go with D1 hubs you need the FTC1740 defender stubs which don't have the plain portion for the spacer to sit on, but have a step which places the stub further outboard (by coincidence about 10mm). Take a look here:
FTC1740 REAR AXLE STUB ASSY | shop | www.lrseries.com | L. R. Series (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/6874/FTC1740-REAR-AXLE-STUB-ASSY.html)
You need later (short) defender axles to go with that combo.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Is this the thick spacer/seal area I need to look out for?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/746.jpg

Addit: Bugger my VIN is an HA90... not an LA93...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/747.jpg

at 1/6 the price of Genuine are the Britpart ones worth taking a risk with?

[steveG]

Is this the thick spacer/seal area I need to look out for?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/746.jpg

Yes.

[steveG]

I knew I had a photo around somewhere showing the 2 stubs together.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/734.jpg

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Steve

Just clarifying what you're showing us.

FRC3132 (at the top) is an early 110 wide bearing spacing stub axle.

FTC1740 (at the bottom) is a late Defender narrow bearing spacing stub axle?

Both would use the same length half-shafts as my early defender stub axle.

Diana

[steveG]

Hi Steve

Just clarifying what you're showing us.

FRC3132 (at the top) is an early 110 wide bearing spacing stub axle.Correct

FTC1740 (at the bottom) is a late Defender narrow bearing spacing stub axle?Correct

Both would use the same length half-shafts as my early defender stub axle. Incorrect. FRC3132 uses long ones, and FTC1740 uses short. If you currently have the FRC8540 stubs you'll have long

Diana

I'm starting to feel like your signature line....:angel:

What would be good conclusion to the thread is if someone could find the part numbers of the early Defender rear disc hubs and stubs. I'm guessing that they will suit the early (long) axles, likely mount onto the FRC8540 stubs, and retain the standard track.
They may also be like rocking-horse poo with a price to match, but that's OK as I don't need any :D

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You're not wrong there, ATM I'm in the situation of having to buy 4 x FTC1740 stubs and 4 half-shafts to keep the track correct. :BigCry:

[flagg]

On account that no one seems to have 3132's this weekend I"ll try FRC8540's with county front hubs.

[yt110]

On account that no one seems to have 3132's this weekend I"ll try FRC8540's with county front hubs.

I don't think that will work, the bearing spacing is wrong.

Jim

[Judo]

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I've found a thread that's even more confusing than Dougal's turbo performance thread.

[weeds]

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I've found a thread that's even more confusing than Dougal's turbo performance thread.


:D:D:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have been talking to Barry at Hi-Tough this morning, we may be able to do the conversions with the FTC1740 stubs, Disco 1 hubs and use one of the HTE flanges to compensate for the different axle length. Even if we need a batch of special flanges.

The Disco hubs require different flanges to the drum Defender already.

Awaiting my measurements over the weekend.

[steveG]

On account that no one seems to have 3132's this weekend I"ll try FRC8540's with county front hubs.

Been there - doesn't work.
From memory it may fit together, but the outer bearing is largely unsupported on the stub.

Steve

[flagg]

Thanks guys. Found some 3132's in the UK. Fun and games.

[Bush65]

...

What would be good conclusion to the thread is if someone could find the part numbers of the early Defender rear disc hubs and stubs. I'm guessing that they will suit the early (long) axles, likely mount onto the FRC8540 stubs, and retain the standard track.
...
These are 2 pages from a parts manual.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=67075&stc=1&d=1381903399

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=67076&stc=1&d=1381903450

[steveG]

Thanks John.
For some reason I had an idea that there was an "intermediate" disc braked hub prior to the the later D1 style hubs.
I must have been dreaming, which is good as it simplifies things.....

Steve

[steveG]

Have been talking to Barry at Hi-Tough this morning, we may be able to do the conversions with the FTC1740 stubs, Disco 1 hubs and use one of the HTE flanges to compensate for the different axle length. Even if we need a batch of special flanges.

The Disco hubs require different flanges to the drum Defender already.

Awaiting my measurements over the weekend.

That would be a really good option for those who already have an investment in early style (long) aftermarket axles.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have been talking to Barry at Hi-Tough this morning, we may be able to do the conversions with the FTC1740 stubs, Disco 1 hubs and use one of the HTE flanges to compensate for the different axle length. Even if we need a batch of special flanges.

The Disco hubs require different flanges to the drum Defender already.

Awaiting my measurements over the weekend.That would be a really good option for those who already have an investment in early style (long) aftermarket axles.

SteveHave been unable to acquire the FTC 1740 stubs in Sydney, does anyone close by have one I could borrow Friday till Sunday?

[isuzutoo-eh]

Suppose it wouldn't do to ask if there is a hub combo that'll reduce front track by the requisite amount to keep track equal front and rear?

Which would also mean my rim/tyre combo would fit under the guards just about perfectly instead of rubbing on the guards at full tuck ;)

[flagg]

Are the bearings the same between the the flat type and slot type stub axles? ( that Murray has pictures of at the start of this thread) I bought a kit that has the slot type washers and timkin bearings p/n stc4382 but they will require "encouragement" to go on the stub axles. The old ones slid off without any trouble - not sure what is right here?

[steveG]

All the same bearings.
Not just a machining burr is it? Or simply cocked a bit?

Steve

[Vern]

Flagg, my new bearings were the same, old ones slid off, new ones I had to drive one. They were timken as well.

[flagg]

Thanks guys, with some oil and cleaning up I was able to get them on.

[UBZ]

I am just abut to fit a Full Disc braked axle to the rear of my 93 200tdi Defender 110 .

I have read this whole thread :eek::eek: and have found no mention of a residual valve in the factory rear drum break circuit .

normally when doing rear disc break conversions on other 4x4s (suzuki/toyota), You have to remove the reside valve from the rear break circuit. This is to stop the pads constantly rubbing on the discs and prematurely wearing out.
Drums require this valve to stop brake creep AFAIK

I would assume that a D1 booster does not have one as it is designed for disc brakes on all corners .

I would prefer to just keep the Defender booster for now as
A: I just found out about the D1 Booster (this thread) and I don't have one
B: Less work on the Brakes for me :angel:
C: Can be done on the future

Can anyone enlighten me further in regards to the residual valve?

[isuzurover]

I have never seen a residual valve on a 110. There is just a straight line between the proportioning valve at the front and the rear flex line on all I have seen.

I just swapped the rear axle in a 1987 110. I touched nothing else in the braking system. The brakes work well and the rears don't lock up too early.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have never seen a residual valve on a 110. There is just a straight line between the proportioning valve at the front and the rear flex line on all I have seen.

I just swapped the rear axle in a 1987 110. I touched nothing else in the braking system. The brakes work well and the rears don't lock up too early.Is it a proportioning valve, or merely a brake fail switch that activates when there is significantly differential pressures in the front and rear systems?

[Judo]

Well the 110 (and Disco) brake fluid reservoir is split in 2 halves so if there's a leak you can only lose half. I guess this mitigates the need for the safety value function?

[steveG]

Factory discs in my '99 130, but my County with D1 booster and rear disc conversion stops MUCH better.
As Isuzurover said - no residual valve. Perhaps that's why they seemed to have a lot of pedal travel even when newly adjusted.

Steve

[Lotz-A-Landies]

not really sure what alloys fitting has to do with the rear disc conversion?? If your 91 Defender has a track width of 1551 wms-wms, then I think you will find that the early RR hubs will not make your rear drum Sals be the same, but 16-20mm short over all as the 110 front hubs are....Sorry for replying to this post years after the event.

Original fitment RRc/Disco/Defender Xtreme alloy rims won't fit on two door Range Rover hubs. So the consideration of using 2 door RR hubs for a drum to disk brake conversion has to be tempered with the potential wheels you will be using.

I have access to 4 of these RRc axle assemblies, but am unable to use them because of the LR alloy rims I have as a spare set for the defender.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have been talking to Barry at Hi-Tough this morning, we may be able to do the conversions with the FTC1740 stubs, Disco 1 hubs and use one of the HTE flanges to compensate for the different axle length. Even if we need a batch of special flanges.

The Disco hubs require different flanges to the drum Defender already.

Awaiting my measurements over the weekend.That would be a really good option for those who already have an investment in early style (long) aftermarket axles.

SteveHave been unable to acquire the FTC 1740 stubs in Sydney, does anyone close by have one I could borrow Friday till Sunday?Wakey wakey.

Well not finding an FTC 1740 stub, I went and purchased four after market ones. Now wish I hadn't.

I started to finish off the middle axle over the last weekend and everything has come to naught. The FTC 1740 will give me the correct hub face using the D1 hubs I have, but when setting everything up I find that my D1 hubs are the same 60mm wide spaced (overall) bearings not the narrow 52mm spacing. This means that the outer bearing is only partially supported and there's only enough thread for one nut and maybe the lock tab but barely a couple of threads for the outer nut. :BigCry: The whole system would be a failure.

My only other option would be to get the later narrow spaced hub and hope the wheel face is the same. :(

[123rover50]

Well I have just found the Kit I bought. Its been hiding all these years. Too much junk coupled with losing a bunch of memory cell a couple of years ago led to this. Never mind.
I was thinking of getting back into it using the bits off a 92 Disco V8 I have here and found this old thread but of course Photobucket has dumped all the pics of how it all goes together.
Thats going to make it a bit harder and as I need the 110 quite often I might just postpone it a bit longer
Anyone got non photobucket pics to share of how the calipers etc bolt up?

Keith

[uninformed]

........If your County is pre '88 '87 ? you should be able to use your original stub axles.
I had to replace the rear stub axles on my '88 County as the later Countys had different stubs on the rear with a different bearing spacing in the drum type hub.
Early County hubs and stubs are a better option than Defender hubs and stubs as the Defender hubs have a very narrow bearing spacing which puts more load on the bearings.


Cheers, Murray

Hi Murray,

can you please confirm that the late 110s (pre Defender) did indeed have a different rear stub axle that had a different/narrower wheel bearing spacing compared to the older early 110 stub FRC3132.

I think the part number for the 87, 88 110 (pre Defender) rear stub is FRC8540.

Do you have any idea how much difference/narrower the wheel bearing spacing is between the 2?

Reason I ask Is im trying to figure out when LR made the change, not just on the 110, but on other Rover rears. Most think it was just the 300 Tdi change over but Im not quite sure.

[rijidij]

Hi Murray,

can you please confirm that the late 110s (pre Defender) did indeed have a different rear stub axle that had a different/narrower wheel bearing spacing compared to the older early 110 stub FRC3132.

I think the part number for the 87, 88 110 (pre Defender) rear stub is FRC8540.

Do you have any idea how much difference/narrower the wheel bearing spacing is between the 2?

Reason I ask Is im trying to figure out when LR made the change, not just on the 110, but on other Rover rears. Most think it was just the 300 Tdi change over but Im not quite sure.

Unfortunately it's a bit hit and miss when it comes to part specs around the time of the County to Defender transition. Mine, being a 1988 model, I've found I need to physically check parts before ordering because you can't rely on it being 100% correct for the model year. For example, mine had stubs with key ways on the front and flats on the rear.

Regarding the bearing spacing difference, there were actually three different ones, I did measure them at the time but I can't find the reference. From this pic (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/734.jpg) it looks approx 15mm between those two.
I can confirm my '88 model County did have narrower bearing spacing on the back, but others with earlier model Countys said they were able to use the original rear stubs with the key way, mine had the flat.

Cheers, Murray

[Bigbjorn]

My '86 County already had rear discs when I bought it in 2006. The previous owner told me it was a "factory conversion kit".

[uninformed]

Unfortunately it's a bit hit and miss when it comes to part specs around the time of the County to Defender transition. Mine, being a 1988 model, I've found I need to physically check parts before ordering because you can't rely on it being 100% correct for the model year. For example, mine had stubs with key ways on the front and flats on the rear.

Regarding the bearing spacing difference, there were actually three different ones, I did measure them at the time but I can't find the reference. From this pic (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/734.jpg) it looks approx 15mm between those two.
I can confirm my '88 model County did have narrower bearing spacing on the back, but others with earlier model Countys said they were able to use the original rear stubs with the key way, mine had the flat.

Cheers, Murray

totally agree on the hit and miss part...

From my digging, and a lot of inturpelation, it looks like there was a change around 1986, wit both RRC and LR's . They went from a slotted key way to a flat for the locking tab and washers.

This FISRT incarnation of the Stub axles with FLATS, has a spacer in between the outer wheel bearing and the first hub lock nut. This on both the RRc and LR as shown in my old parts catalogues.

The later disc brake 300tdi defenders had no such spacer on the stub axle, even though it used the same flat section. Just a washer between the outer bearing and first hub lock nut.

The pic you added is of the very early 110 stub FRC3132 and the later 300tdi disc rear FTC1740. What I am trying to assertain is the diffenerce between FRC3132 and FRC8540 with regards to bearing spacing.

I have read many threads on the internet and there seems much confusion or vagueness regarding LR stub axles, even incorrect information, and I see many people come un stuck when trying to mix and match hubs and they dodnt even know what stubs they have.

I have both of the FRc3132 and FTC1740, and some RRC stubs, but no FRC8540, otherwise id put this difference to bed.

Thanks for this thread and your help mate.

[uninformed]

All the D1 hubs I've got here are the same.
If your defender drum stubs are the type with the thick spacer/seal land (like the on on the right in this photo) they don't go with D1 hubs. Only useful for drums.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/748.jpg
EDIT: Stub on left is FRC3132, one on right is FRC8540

To go with D1 hubs you need the FTC1740 defender stubs which don't have the plain portion for the spacer to sit on, but have a step which places the stub further outboard (by coincidence about 10mm). Take a look here:
FTC1740 REAR AXLE STUB ASSY | shop | www.lrseries.com (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/6874/FTC1740-REAR-AXLE-STUB-ASSY.html) | L. R. Series
You need later (short) defender axles to go with that combo.

Steve

Im digging up the past here I know, but any chance you still have this pic Steve? Im trying to find the differences between these 2 stub axles, specificly the wheel bearing spacing.

[rijidij]

.................................I have read many threads on the internet and there seems much confusion or vagueness regarding LR stub axles, even incorrect information, and I see many people come un stuck when trying to mix and match hubs and they dont even know what stubs they have..........................


That's why, where possible, I physically check parts before ordering.