The Engine Question

[samuelclarke]

So, after throwing around the question in my head about a rebuild and then voicing it in this thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/162946-rebuild-200tdi-defender-go-puma.html), a rebuild of my 1992 200Tdi 110 has slowly begun.

The Defender is off the road, our new 2013 Toyota Hilux SR arrives in June (were also looking at the Amarok, but liked the Hilux more - flame away :wasntme: ) to cover our 4x4 needs for the next few years, and the first parts (front bar, rock sliders and wheel carrier) have been galvanised.

http://samuelclarke.com/media/landrover/galvanised-bar-sliders.jpg

I'm going through and putting a parts list together as part of the costings process and a lot of thought is being given to the engine...

The 200Tdi is in there now, and I've been mostly happy with it. It's needing some work however, that combined with the fact that this is going to be a long term rebuild and long term vehicle, so will be looking at a new engine. The question is which one? Another 200Tdi with the problem of parts availability, a 300Tdi for parts availability or the rumoured holy grail - the Isuzu 4BD1T.

I'd be looking at either the 300Tdi or 200Tdi from Turner Engineering (http://turner-engineering.co.uk/). Don't have a clue where to source a good 4BD1T - then there's the matter of conversion. Will be ordering a new galvanised chassis, so engine mounts aren't a problem - as long as I decide on the engine before it's ordered!

Have a Ashcroft LT77 gearbox with not many KM's on it...but can sell that.

Which engine should it be and why? 200Tdi, 300Tdi or 4BD1T

[Judo]

Having just purchased my new 110 project that I plan on keeping for years to come and it being a 4BD1T, I have voted for that. :)

If you're talking engine swap, forget 200TDI. I don't doubt it's been a great engine for you, but it's time to move on to something newer. 300TDI or 4bd1.

They are a very different engine though. The 300TDI I'm sure you have a decent understanding. The 4bd1 is bigger, heavier, produces bucketloads more power and torque for almost not extra fuel to a TDI. It is also very loud and hot if you don't have an insulated cabin. It is very much like driving a truck. I get back in my Disco after the 110 and feel like I'm driving a bubble car. It's crazy. With all this, I am still happy with my 4bd1T and I'm sure every other 4bd1T owner will agree.

Again, if you're already going a full rebuild, ditch the LT77. 300TDI you're looking at a R380, no other choice. 4bd1, you really have 3 choices. LT85, LT95, R380. I'm heard a rumour the latest recommendation is a late model R380.

LT95 4 speed is the toughest box.
TBH, I don't know which is tougher from LT85 5 speed and R380 5 speed. BUT, R380's are probably the "preference" because they are still relatively new, not overly expensive, can be rebuilt, lots of support for parts and maintenance and drives very nicely compared to the others. Again - the R380 is like driving a bubble car compared to the LT95 or LT85. I don't know how many R380's have been tested behind a 4bd1 though. Depends how game you are. :)

I look forward to more discussion! :)

[Judo]

I always have thoughts after posting... :D

If you can find someone to let you drive a 4bd1, do that. If you like it, the engine choice is made. Then it's just down to gearbox. If the 4bd1 is too agricultural, go a 300TDI + R380.

Driving it will provide many answers.

[BigJon]

. 4bd1, you really have 3 choices. LT85, LT95, R380. I'm heard a rumour the latest recommendation is a late model R380.



Or Isuzu box, there are threads on conversions.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Whatever you do, don't get a naturally aspirated Isuzu unless you are about to turbo it. Whilst I love my 4BD1, if you come from a tdi you'll miss being able to get up hills in fourth or sometimes third rather than third and frequently second. But you won't miss the tdi off-road!
At highways speeds people who own 110s with 300tdi and Puma engines have commented that my Isuzu is no louder than their car. But around town the Isuzu is definitely noisier.
If you are getting a gal chassis from the UK, chances are they won't know where the Isuzu enginemounts go and what shape they are. So a tdi is likely a lot easier to not get mistakes on.

[goingbush]

Curious to know why you haven't included the best Defender engine LR ever made in your poll ??

[Ancient Mariner]

Real diesels no lectricty:p

[Sitec]

Td5? 300 Tdi wud be my choice out of your list, as you'll need a Santana or LT95 to handle the Isuzu... The 300 suits the application and will run against your existing gearbox for a while.. You also have the option to freshen up your 200, add a larger intercooler, decent exhaust and get the pump played with. The right man on the pump mods and you'll be surprised how well it goes! :)

[Judo]

Curious to know why you haven't included the best Defender engine LR ever made in your poll ??
Good question.

[Bush65]

I wouldn't take a 300Tdi over a 200Tdi, except for spares availability.

IMHO an 89 or later 4BD1T is the better choice. These models are better than the earlier versions - quieter, smoother, stronger, more power and better economy.

The 4BD1T being from an Isuzu truck and not from a 110 land Rover has a different flywheel housing and so an Isuzu gearbox plus LT230 is more logical.

[goingbush]

Real diesels no lectricty:p

not a valid argument,
electronics are far more reliable than machines,

be interested to know if anyone fitted with a pacemaker won't touch anything with an ECU because of 'electricery'

My guess is people that shy away from Td5, dont fly, dont drive a car built after 1980, dont use a phone, dont watch TV, dont use a computer ,

in that case suprising how many of them are on here.

I used to work for Telstra, Telecom exchanges used to be electro mechanical , now they are all electronic, They used to be staffed by a dozen or more people each, now they are ALL unmanned, only have occasional visits by contractors now to service their dinosaur mechanical backup generators,

just amuses me when the best and most reliable engines are bypassed because of mis-understanding

[ted44]

Sorry but its not misunderstanding, its being able to repair or at least have a go at repairing your engine without the need to drag it to the main stealers!!
300 Tdi for me any day of the week!

[Judo]

Sorry but its not misunderstanding, its being able to repair or at least have a go at repairing your engine without the need to drag it to the main stealers!!
300 Tdi for me any day of the week!
I think the TD5 is a prefect example of how false this is.

How many times is a TD5 ECU replaced VS how many times is a mechanical part replaced?

If I had a 200TDI 110 and was engine swapping, my dilema would be TD5 vs 4BD1T. They are both different beasts, but great engines and can be tweaked to suit. The rest are second rate in comparison.

Of course, with the question not including a TD5, my answer is still 4BD1T.

[goingbush]

Sorry but its not misunderstanding, its being able to repair or at least have a go at repairing your engine without the need to drag it to the main stealers!!
300 Tdi for me any day of the week!

as per Judo, this demonstrates that it is indeed misunderstanding.

The Td5 is more reliable and easier to repair trackside than any other engine I know of. There is not a single thing that a dealer could do on it that any other person that understands it could.

on the other hand Ive had a Timing belt / cam seizure on a so called legendary reliable engine that destroyed the engine, in the middle of nowhere. I understood that engine too, but that didnt help.

in the auspices of the question I too would pick the Isuzu, (hint, it dosent have a timing belt)

[flagg]

When I was planning out my 110 it was Td5 Vs 4bd1(t).

Initially my decision was Td5. The plan was to get one and then 'freshen it up'. It started talking to people but was scared off by the cost. Td5 engine parts are significantly more expensive than Isuzu parts (and I was happy to run a 4BD1 without touching it internally).

There is no doubt that the td5 is smoother engine that is easier to live with but I really hope that the parts costs have come down a lot more (I was looking 8-9 years ago).

[Vern]

Buy an Isuzu truck, use the motor and gearbox, then adapt it to one of the grubbs kits. Done! You see/here of a lot more damaged/broken 300tdi/td5's than you do 4bd1's.:)

[goingbush]

Buy an Isuzu truck, use the motor and gearbox, then adapt it to one of the grubbs kits. Done! You see/here of a lot more damaged/broken 300tdi/td5's than you do 4bd1's.:)


makes the most sense.

except I'd be buying a Isuzu 4x4 truck & build a camper on the back.. job done.

[Vern]

If only I could convince the boss of this. I really did like that duramax powered oka in another thread:)

[isuzurover]

My order of preference would be:

4BD1T
TD5
200tdi
300tdi

[Judo]

My order of preference would be:

4BD1T
TD5
200tdi
300tdi
200TDI would be preferred over a 300TDI?? I see others on here commenting the same thing, but why?!

[Sitec]

Simplicity. 200ft/pounds of torque as oppose to 300... Re Td5's, I was of the same mindset when I bought mine... Computers, ECU's, Sensors etc etc... The guys are right, once you have a basic understanding of it, no prob. I have since done the head on my Td5, played with injector looms, cleaned ECU's, etc etc... No different to a Tdi. The fuel injection system is IMO simpler. Who's game to pull a Bosch or CAV high pressure pump apart? Only a few of us. Td5's don't have those. The injector is the fuel pump, and yes the injectors are silly money new, but they are not second hand.. I had an issue with one. Worked out which one by unplugging each... Messy but entertaining! $150 for a second hand injector and I was away! Got it plugged in a few thousand kms later and had the code changed ($25) and all gud! Don't be frightened by electrickery... :)

[chewy7]

300 TDI
And i've got a complete engine/gearbox for sale :p

[strangy]

My situation too. My 130 project has me throw TD5 vs 4BD1t around for some months now. Funnily enough it will end up with a rebuilt 300tdi initially ( 2 in the shed) simply because I can't find a motor of either type that is value for money.
I ll get the truck on the road and keep looking.

Plenty of options to tweek the 300 but cost starts making the 4BD1t or TD5 seem a simple choice if staying mechanical or wanting more grunt.

I wanted the Defer and mech injection for simplicity, but won't be phased if a TD5 comes up at the right time.

[Bush65]

200TDI would be preferred over a 300TDI?? I see others on here commenting the same thing, but why?!


Simplicity. 200ft/pounds of torque as oppose to 300...
What the ...!!!

Both 200 and 300 Tdi's were developed from the earlier 2.5 diesel. The name given to the 200 Tdi came about from the number of changes, many minor, some, like direct injection, major.

The 200 and 300 in the name has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of torque produced.

The 300Tdi produces a little more power and torque, which is almost entirely to do with a higher setting of the turbo boost pressure - easily fixed in a 200Tdi.

The 200Tdi is a more reliable engine, mainly because the pulleys for the timing belt were made properly, not pressed out of sheet metal, so the timing belt doesn't track-off and wear away, leading to broken timing belts.

The turbo on a 200Tdi is far easier to find a replacement for. Both engines have very old technology turbos, and need replacing by now. To fit a better turbo to a 300Tdi, you need to find an exhaust manifold ...

The injectors on the 300Tdi are 2 stage and no diesel shops in Australia, or most other parts of the world can test them. Thankfully new replacements can be found that won't break the bank.

The downside of the 200Tdi, is that some parts are difficult to find now, but AFAIK substitutions can be made, I'm lead to believe that the replacement cylinder head that has fixed the flaws in the coolant passages for the 300Tdi head, can be used on a 200Tdi. If that is not the case, it is the only reason I would use a 300Tdi in preference to a 200Tdi.

I've had two 300Tdi's and would never have that crap engine ever again. I agree with the other comments about the TD5. They were a very good design, with the exception of a few things that are easy to cure at the right stage. There were issues with porosity in the early cylinder heads, but any of those will have been fixed now.

[mools]

I'm a big fan of the TD5, I think once tweaked a little it suites the Landrover very, if not extreamly, well. While I like the idea of an engine that'll do a 1000,000,000 km and loads of torque, the general truck like nature of the Isusu does not appeal to me. IMHO an engine that size and weight changes a Landrover into quite a different vehicle, some may like that personally I'm less keen. I'm unsure of why one would require more power and torque than a moderately tweaked TD5 would put out under anything other than competition conditions. Perhaps it is a matter of driving style though. I like my Landrover to be a Landrover, else I'd drive something else.

The whole 'you can't fix it' argument is just BS, and some very good, and in my opinion well informed, comments regarding that issue made previously. Know your engine.

Starting from scratch though, and as much as I love them I would find it hard to part with the cash for a new TD5 engine, and it would be costly / difficult to get a secondhand one (that you could trust). So I would be forced to go the Isuzu. But I would always regret not having a TD5.

Everyone has an opinion, that's mine.

Ian.

[PAT303]

Maybe if people put as much effort into maintaining thier vehicles as they did having these silly arguements about which is better maybe thier vehicles would be more reliable?.I would fit the engine that suits your needs and more importantly suits your budget and mechanical ability,the one thing I would not do is an engine mod or do a conversion that needed non standard parts.Personally I think people carry on about which engine does the most miles or which gearbox is stronger or weather thier axles have 10 splines or twenty,I've done too many real miles in the bush to worry about keyboard hero's. Pat

[Judo]

To segue from keyboard hero's..... I like how this is a poll. A very under utilised feature!!! Adds another dimension to the thread. :D

[samuelclarke]

Some awesome replies! Thanks everyone. :)

I wasn't intending on this thread becoming a "my engine is better than yours" debate. Rather the pros and cons of them all. I agree with Pat that real world driving and proper maintenance beats banter over the Internet any day...and I've got lots of that over long distances and remote areas with my 200Tdi - it's a great engine and I'd go another one if it wasn't for the issue of parts getting harder to find and expensive.

Definitely not against the TD5 (it's a fantastic engine) and its basic electronics don't worry me one bit, just hadn't considered them because of conversion cost. But it might be in the same boat as the 4BD1T with cost from the looks of it, so maybe I should look at it.

The idea of this project is ending up with a vehicle that is as reliable as possible for long distance exploring in Australia and potentially overseas, using proven parts with as many as possible off the shelf for ease of sourcing replacements, easy track side maintenance with a decent tool kit, powerful enough to deal with a good size load plus 2-3 adults yet economical (something I love with the 200Tdi) and including deep water crossing ability without worrying about killing the engine. Oh and not cost 100k! lol

We thought about going for a new Defender, but for the money think it will be better creating an ideal build using our current one as the foundation. It's going to be an interesting journey over the next few years.

[110 Pete]

Turner engineering 300tdi rebuilt into a 2.8 International with VNT Turbo:twisted:, 3" Straight through exhaust, Full length allisport intercooler, alloy radiator, tuned fuel pump...... Sorry Im just dreaming here:angel::p But that combo would make one powerful 300tdi :D

Id personally go What I have just said or either the 4bd1t or TD5. My top 3.

Cheers

Pete

[g2landyman]

Hi great thread, I like Pat303's comment, I was my choice out the 3 the Isuzu but for me I will stick to what's in my 87 County a V8 but will be a 4.4ltr auto and on LPG or LNG only hopefully building next year after I get my LPG Ticket regards All. G2

[isuzurover]

200TDI would be preferred over a 300TDI?? I see others on here commenting the same thing, but why?!

The 200tdi has a better engineered timing setup.
QC seems to have dropped between 200 and 300 tdi in other areas as well.

[PAT303]

Turner engineering 300tdi rebuilt into a 2.8 International with VNT Turbo:twisted:, 3" Straight through exhaust, Full length allisport intercooler, alloy radiator, tuned fuel pump...... Sorry Im just dreaming here:angel::p But that combo would make one powerful 300tdi :D

Id personally go What I have just said or either the 4bd1t or TD5. My top 3.

Cheers

Pete

Balance the spinning bits to that and it would be a sweet motor.In the interior economy and range are king,not power and there's a hundred and one other show stoppers that I would worry about before the motor,wheel bearings,clutch,tie rod ends,swivel bearings to name a few I've delt with over the years. Pat

[PAT303]

The 200tdi has a better engineered timing setup.
QC seems to have dropped between 200 and 300 tdi in other areas as well.

Something I've never experienced in 15 years of ownership,saying that the 200 I repaired in Newman was a great little jigger and would be great in a swb series,as was the very much abused Td5,abused more than any engine I've worked on so I'll defend that motors supposed unreliability too. Pat

[Sitec]

What the ...!!!

Both 200 and 300 Tdi's were developed from the earlier 2.5 diesel. The name given to the 200 Tdi came about from the number of changes, many minor, some, like direct injection, major.

The 200 and 300 in the name has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of torque produced.


Well, there you go. Learn something every day. That was something I was told years ago, and never thought anything of it until now! I stand corrected.:)

[chris_mack]

actually being pedantic here but the 200tdi was so named because of its 195 lb/ft of torque.. think it was 195 around that ball park.

300 tdi was just a nice sounding name as a sucessor to that.. exact same power in a disco as the 200tdi, and this time round LR didnt put a de-tuned version in the defender so the defender gained 4 bhp going from 107 - 111, and a few lb ft of torque as well