So, 101 drum brakes DO work!!

[Sitec]

Found this on a mates FB page in the UK... Looks like its a test shot or something. Funny none the less!!!

[101RRS]

Here is the other one that goes with it. Also part of the test report.

That is Misguided 2 currently owned by a AULRO member. The vehicle was one of the two Brit trials vehicles brought out from the UK for the Aust army to test. The pics are of the brake tests - there was never an issue of the brakes actually working just how haphazard they were.

When the 101s were purchased by the Aust Army the two trials vehicles remain here and integrated into Aust service even though they were a slightly older version with things like series 2 door locks vs the later series 3 anti-burst door locks.

Also at the time they may still have had a 1 tonne load rating rather than our 1.5 tonne load rating but not sure on this.

Garry

[Sitec]

That's great! Didn't realise it was taken in Australia. I like the write up about the brake pro portioning valve.... If the back wheels are off the ground, it does not matter what you do with the valve!! :D:D:D

[101RRS]

That's great! Didn't realise it was taken in Australia. I like the write up about the brake pro portioning valve.... If the back wheels are off the ground, it does not matter what you do with the valve!! :D:D:D

Of course it is the main reason the rear wheels are off the road. I have tested this myself with the proportioning valve out of the vehicle - when unloaded the rear brakes on a properly set up 101 do not work as the valve shuts off brake fluid to the rear so all braking effort is via the front wheels so the rears can lift. With load, the rear settles on the suspension and cracks open the valve allowing fluid to the raer and braking is more balanced.

As I said the 101 valve is closed in unloaded position where a Landcruiser valve which is very similar is slightly open in the unloaded position - I have modified a landcruiser valve and have it installed on the 101 activating levers so I have some rear brakes when unloaded.

Garr

[clubagreenie]

Where's the driver? Firmly planted back into the seat in anticipation or already through the screen?

[123rover50]

So does that mean in reverse with no load you only have front brakes?
Bit scary:(

[vnx205]

So does that mean in reverse with no load you only have front brakes?
Bit scary:(

No, because if you braked while travelling backwards, there would be weight transfer to the back wheels, so the valve would open.

[123rover50]

Thanks. I get it now. No experience with these valve things. My 109 FC doesnt have them, I thought they were a Jap thing.

[101 Ron]

No, because if you braked while travelling backwards, there would be weight transfer to the back wheels, so the valve would open.

I can assure you there is no weight transfer if unloaded and you hit the brakes hard going backwards...............the back springs rarely move unloaded as a pair.
Most proporsioning valves dont work these days on 101s and its any bodies guess at what position it is stuck on.
The valve is hard to repair and the pivot for the arm that operates it tends to wear.
If you can bleed the rear brakes you must be getting some sort of effect from the back brakes.
I have never found a issuse rolling backwards on a steep hill , but overseas they have ?????
The funny part about it is the parking brake is so good I can use my little finger and apply the parking brake and hold the 101 on any hill.

I do know like most other 101 drivers going forwards under normal conditions the front brakes do most of the work and the front brake shoes wear fast , while the rear shoes hardly wear at all.
The front shoes are self energising in a forward direction on both shoes.
On the rear brakes only one shoe per side is self energising in each direction.

[vnx205]

I can assure you there is no weight transfer if unloaded and you hit the brakes hard going backwards...............the back springs rarely move unloaded as a pair.

My idea should work in theory. :)

Is the reason it doesn't happen because the rear springs are just too stiff?

[wrinklearthur]

What I have read here is scary! :o
In steep country with no load and needing to reverse back down off a failed climb, you would need to take a firm grip of the rosary beads !
.

[stuee]

Of course it is the main reason the rear wheels are off the road. I have tested this myself with the proportioning valve out of the vehicle - when unloaded the rear brakes on a properly set up 101 do not work as the valve shuts off brake fluid to the rear so all braking effort is via the front wheels so the rears can lift. With load, the rear settles on the suspension and cracks open the valve allowing fluid to the raer and braking is more balanced.

As I said the 101 valve is closed in unloaded position where a Landcruiser valve which is very similar is slightly open in the unloaded position - I have modified a landcruiser valve and have it installed on the 101 activating levers so I have some rear brakes when unloaded.

Garr

Garry do you have a write up of the mods you did to the landcruiser valve? I recall reading in the past you had done this, I think it was from a 75 series ute. Was it difficult or pretty straight forward?

[101 Ron]

I any day would be happy to reverse a 101 down a steep hill, loaded or unloaded.
The vehicle has a very strong parking brake( if the linkage and cable is good nick).
The brakes do work backwards if in good nick.
I personally reverse down a hill in low range reverse using the motor and the 101s excellent low gearing.
The unloaded weight bias of a 101 is towards the front,
Stall recovery proceedure should be used and therefore braking in reverse should not be too much of a issuse as the brakes only assist in the proceedure.......remember the excellent parking brake.
The brakes on a 101 landrover are more than proven, as the drum size, the shoes, wheel cylinders are exactly the same as a long wheel base series three landrover.
I dont hear too many stories of correctly driven series three landrovers which are legal for 3/4 ton off road have too much drama.
Are the short wheel base series three brakes the same.?
the differences are.
101 has simular booster , but not the same , different master cylinder and the proporsioning valve fitted.
The 101 has a pressure switch designed to work a warning light on the dash board if one brake circult is not working.

The hard part of a 101 is going down hill unloaded, as the forward weight bias, forward control drivers position over the front wheels, short wheel base, lack of flex on the rear suspension, makes things interesting, especially if you tap the brakes.
Every different type of vehicle has strenghts and weakness and has to be driven according to the diffent vehicles needs.
Going down hill in my 101 the greatest weakness is the driver chickens out very quickly:angel::angel::angel::angel::o

[101 Ron]

One other thing I find interesting is in the 101 drivers hand book about towing .( the vehicle was designed from the outset to tow a light gun without brakes fitted...I think its weight is about 1.5 tonnes and the powered driven trailer would have been 500kg unloaded with a 1.5 ton payload in the trailer that was vacuum braked)
It states the vehicle must have 500kg in the rear cargo area between the rear axle and the tail gate if towing a trailer.
It states the ballast load must be placed near the tail gate as rearward as possible.
In practice, in service towing a gun the vehicle was always fully loaded (one tonne in british service and aussie 101s 1.5 tonnes)as the vehicle carried the gun crew, gun crews personal gear, cam nets,cam net poles on roof, ready to use ammo, gun entrenching gear, gun laying gear, first aid, water, and food.
they were so loaded in british army service that everyones personal gear and what ever else that could was hung out side the vehicle as room was so short.
That light weight gun towing design spec is also reason why the 101s on road gearing is so low as standard , it is a gun tractor and the designed convoy speed would have been 40 mph in 1970 when the vehicle was designed.

[bobslandies]

I any day would be happy to revrse a 101 down a steep hill, loaded or unloaded.
The vehicle has a very strong parking brake( if the linkage and cable is good nick).
The brakes do work backwards if in good nick.
I personally reverse down a hill in low range reverse using the motor and the 101s excellent low gearing.
The unload weight bias of a 101 is towards the front,
Stall recovery proceedure should be used and therefore braking in reverse should not be too much of a issuse as the brakes only assist in the proceedure.......remember the excellent parking brake.
The brakes on a 101 landrover are more than proven, as the drum size, the shoes, wheel cylinders are exactly the same as a long wheel base series three landrover.
I dont hear too many stories of correctly driven series three landrovers which are legal for 3/4 ton off road have too much drama.
Are the short wheel base series three brakes the same.?
the differences are.
101 has simular booster , but not the same , different master cylinder and the proporsioning valve fitted.
The 101 has a pressure switch designed to work a warning light on the dash board if one brake circult is not working.

The hard part of a 101 is going down hill unloaded, as the forward weight bias, forward control drivers position over the front wheels, short wheel base, lack of flex on the rear suspension, makes things interesting, especially if you tap the brakes.


Every different type of vehicle has strenghts and weakness and has to be driven according to the diffent vehicles needs.
Going down hill in my 101 the greatest weakness is the driver chickens out very quickly:angel::angel::angel::angel::o

This was one of the reasons the Volvo Forward Control was rejected for applications here - rear wheels four feet off the ground and only recovery was to go faster downhill and pray! These sort of vehicles really probably only need lower gearing, or tow a log (or maybe a longer wheelbase:p) for use in steep country.

Bob

[101RRS]

The idea of the load proportioning valve is good - supposedly auto controls the rear braking effort in all conditions - when loaded increases brakes effectiveness and when stopping where there is weight transfer to the front rear barking effort is reduced stopping the rears locking and possibly loosing control. Unfortunately as set up on the 101 there needed to be a bit more braking in the unloaded state. The piston in the valve only has a very small stroke so it is effectively either on or off with little in between.

When I first worked on my 101 brakes I could not get fluid to the rear brakes because of the proportioning valve being closed. To bleed the brakes I forced the valve open so the fluid could go through it. Later it started leaking so I took it out and pulled it apart to find it was corroded and needed replacement. New from the UK was about $400 at the time so I looked for alternatives. There are manually operated valves you can get from speed shops quite cheaply but I understand these are illegal on a road going vehicle so I didn't go that route - but to me these would be perfect for the 101 as you can adjust them for the load state you are in.

I went to the local toyota dealer and climbed under a Landcruiser and noted their system is basically the same as the 101 except it is activated from the diff in a sideways direction where on the 101 it is fore and aft but the actual valve is about the same size. I went to a wrecker and bought a cruiser valve for about $45 and cut off all its levers etc I had to drill some new mounting holes in the 101 valve mount and did slight mods to the 101 lever so it moved the piston on the valve correctly and adjusted it so that the valve was slighly open on in the unloaded state - the brake pipes were of a different thread but was fixed with an adaptor.

I have never had an issue with 101 brakes except for differential braking caused by the need to constantly adjust them. Never had an issue reversing as the front brakes work equally as well in either direction - also never had the rears lock up and I do know they are working. When offroad whether going forward or back the rear suspension does move a little (noting the rear is 1.5t rated so it does not move much) so effectiveness of the rear brakes varies as the diff moves up and down.

Garry

[bobslandies]

Garry,

If I recall both you and Ron have Detroit lockers fitted to your rear diffs. You are very unlikely to have a brake lockup with the rear end as the braking is equalised by the locker (it's a mechanical pre-historic Anti-Lock Braking System in this situation).

One rear wheel locking up is the usual problem leading to loss of control at the rear, rather than both.

Bob

[DasLandRoverMan]

Tales in 101 folklore say the NATO jaw on the front was there so when the back end lifted too far under heavy braking whilst unladen the hitch would touch the ground and cause it to bounce back and settle on its wheels.

Apparently.

[Homestar]

Rather than start a new thread, my question seems to fit in here.

Has anyone here done the Disco 1 booster conversion on their 101 - with drum brakes? If so, how does it go? My brakes work very well for what they are but just need a heavy boot to make them work fully.

I have no intention of fitting disks, but was wondering if this conversion would help how hard I have to push the pedal? Biggest reason for looking at this is my right knee which plays up from time to time and braking tends to be one of the actions that hurts it.

Cheers - Gav.

[101RRS]

I put this up a little while back - one technical response that gives the basics.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/101-forward-controls-variations/173425-dual-diaphram-brake-booster-101fc.html

Oh, do you like your box style brake fluid reservoir. I hear they work OK but do not look as good as the originals ;).

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

What I have read here is scary! :o
In steep country with no load and needing to reverse back down off a failed climb, you would need to take a firm grip of the rosary beads !
.

easy,

when reversing down a steep slope you would already be in low reverse with the CDL in.

if the CDL is in then the braking effort of the front brakes and engine retardation is in effect on the back wheels already through the drive line.

assuming the proportioning valve is working correctly you should ALWAYS have a small percentage of pressure going to the rear wheels even if they are completely off of the ground. Theres a few reasons for this and my favorite is that it gives you something on the brakes at the back just in case the fronts let go.

[101RRS]

assuming the proportioning valve is working correctly you should ALWAYS have a small percentage of pressure going to the rear wheels even if they are completely off of the ground. Theres a few reasons for this and my favorite is that it gives you something on the brakes at the back just in case the fronts let go.

There is a weight shift in the vehicle to the rear which opens the proportioning valve making the rear brakes more effective.

Garru

[Homestar]

Oh, do you like your box style brake fluid reservoir. I hear they work OK but do not look as good as the originals ;).

Garry

It is fine, but you are right - doesn't look as good as the originals, but it is compact and allows good visibility of my new gauges, and allows me to mount the tacho where I have. They may have fitted with the originals, but the photos I have seen shows it would be tighter. Not sure if it will suffer from UV exposure at all - time will tell.

[101 Ron]

To fit a series booster you need to change the rod for the booster from a series one and reuse the one for a 101...........I think.........I haven't needed to do that sort of a job yet.
To get improved vacuum assist, you need stronger vacuum or a bigger surface area of booster diaphragm for the vacuum to work on.
Neither are easy.
There is not much room to fit a bigger booster under the dash board.
To improve vacuum you could use a diesel type altenator with a vacuum pump on the end.
You could fit a remote PBR brake booster on the chassis somewhere .
Another option is to improve the brakes themselves.


If you really want to get a 101 to stop is .........
Drop the wheels off and then the brake drums and check for leaking hub oil seals and wheel cylinders........it is a good safety check and easy to do.

101s tend to get oil or fluid on the shoes.
Wear limit on drums with standard shoes is only 1mm O/S
If all is well throw it back together and do a good brake adjustment.
I found with correctly and freshly adjusted brakes the 101 stops well and will reduced pedal effort.
If you can get the pedal to start working early as possible in its travel, pedal effort seems to have abit more leverage over the shoes than with brakes slightly out of adjustment.

[Homestar]

As my post said, I'm not after better brakes - they work fine, I just want to reduce the pedal pressure I have to apply if possible so I don't wreck my knee - I already struggle sometimes to get into it, so I want to help my cause as much as possible. As I've just posted on he thread Garry gave me a link to, AJ has a D1 booster fitted to his, but I didn't look how he did it, but he is one smart cookie, so if there was a lot of fabrication, he would be able to do that whereas I may struggle a bit.

I have had the wheels off it, and the brakes are A1 as are all the mechanicals on this unit. The wheel cylinders look almost new and there are no leaks. Brake shoes are almost new as well. It doesn't pull one way or the other at the moment, so not even an adjustment is required. I have had to stop in a hurry once or twice, and it pulled up better than I expected, but boy was I leaning on the pedal!

[350RRC]

No, because if you braked while travelling backwards, there would be weight transfer to the back wheels, so the valve would open.

This is quite funny......... Yossarian would understand.

The rear brakes mightn't work until there is enough weight transfer due to the rear brakes working.

DL

[101 Ron]

I do not think the vacuum surface area on a disco booster is much different than a 101s unless it is a double type.( I suspect the fitting of a disco booster is only to replace a unrepairable 101 item which are no longer advailable)
I can not see a double/tandem type which is much longer than a 101s fitting in without major work.


Hows the rear brakes working.........If you cannot bleed them, most likey the load sensing valve is jammed up.........common problem.

Make certain the basics are correct, before the spending time and money on the other stuff.

[Homestar]

Thanks Ron. The D1 booster is a double diaphragm unit, and is not small, so that's why I was wondering if anyone had managed it, but as mentioned I know of 1 example that I need to go and have a close look at.:)

Back brakes look like new as well, but I haven't tried to bleed them, so I have no idea if they are actually doing anything - I will try and bleed them and see.

[101RRS]

Gav - if you have your drums adjusted up right it might feel that you do not have a lot of braking assistance but I can assure you that when the time comes and the pucker factor kicks in when braking heavily the standard booster does its thing and provides more than enough braking effort to lock wheels - the issue is what direction you will be going and this is not a booster issue.

I was looking a the double diaphram D1 booster to deal with the heavier requirements of the disk brakes. Clearly can be put in with a bit of mucking around but an additional in line booster just on the front brake circuit would be easier to do and for about the same cost.

Garry

[vnx205]

This is quite funny......... Yossarian would understand.

The rear brakes mightn't work until there is enough weight transfer due to the rear brakes working.

DL

In theory even the retardation provided by the front brakes would transfer some weight to the rear.

However, it seems that in practice, the rear springs are so stiff that the small amount of weight transfer is not enough to be of any practical use. :)

[101 Ron]

Series 3 and defender servos can be made to fit, by swapping various parts and fabricating a simple bracket.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1204.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/101Ron/media/101%20Ron%202/img00120Medium_zps59e7ee39.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1205.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/101Ron/media/101%20Ron%202/Brake-servo-mods-notes_1_zpsef9a8758.jpg.html)

[stuee]

The idea of the load proportioning valve is good - supposedly auto controls the rear braking effort in all conditions - when loaded increases brakes effectiveness and when stopping where there is weight transfer to the front rear barking effort is reduced stopping the rears locking and possibly loosing control. Unfortunately as set up on the 101 there needed to be a bit more braking in the unloaded state. The piston in the valve only has a very small stroke so it is effectively either on or off with little in between.

When I first worked on my 101 brakes I could not get fluid to the rear brakes because of the proportioning valve being closed. To bleed the brakes I forced the valve open so the fluid could go through it. Later it started leaking so I took it out and pulled it apart to find it was corroded and needed replacement. New from the UK was about $400 at the time so I looked for alternatives. There are manually operated valves you can get from speed shops quite cheaply but I understand these are illegal on a road going vehicle so I didn't go that route - but to me these would be perfect for the 101 as you can adjust them for the load state you are in.

I went to the local toyota dealer and climbed under a Landcruiser and noted their system is basically the same as the 101 except it is activated from the diff in a sideways direction where on the 101 it is fore and aft but the actual valve is about the same size. I went to a wrecker and bought a cruiser valve for about $45 and cut off all its levers etc I had to drill some new mounting holes in the 101 valve mount and did slight mods to the 101 lever so it moved the piston on the valve correctly and adjusted it so that the valve was slighly open on in the unloaded state - the brake pipes were of a different thread but was fixed with an adaptor.

I have never had an issue with 101 brakes except for differential braking caused by the need to constantly adjust them. Never had an issue reversing as the front brakes work equally as well in either direction - also never had the rears lock up and I do know they are working. When offroad whether going forward or back the rear suspension does move a little (noting the rear is 1.5t rated so it does not move much) so effectiveness of the rear brakes varies as the diff moves up and down.

Garry

I'm looking at the load apportioning valve again as mine appears to have given up the ghost and when bleeding seems to let air be drawn into the rear circuit. The things been rebuilt twice in my short ownership, once by the brake shop and another by the local 4wd shop. It moves but leaks quite a bit.

Garry, all the landcruiser valves I've seen online so far have a third connection to the front brakes, I've yet to find a cross section diagram so not sure of the inner workings but did you just block off the front hose connection or does the model you have only have two connections?

[Sitec]

Re the Boosters, yup Ron the Disco 1 booster is a double unit, and it does just fit... and wow!! What a difference it makes!! :)