05/06 RRS buying advice requested please .

[cobra8272]

Hi Guys
been on the forum a few weeks and done the usual search's about the RRS.

I'm looking to buy around a 05/06 RRS hopefully with under 150,000km.

The vehicle will be my daily driver and rarely off road.
Travelling about 35,000km per year.
I will do a lot of towing around 90% of the time, with a 700 - 900 kg trailer.
Obviously want one with dealer service history .

Would you recommend the RRS for this ? and what engine - V6TD or V8 ?
What should i be wary of when buying a 7 year old RRS having done say 120,000 to 140,000?
Are there any known problems or repairs/maintenance that should have been done or will need to be done.
What should i budget for repairs per year.

I really love the RRS but i'm nervous as to whether its a good idea to use an older RR for work.

Sorry about the long post but would appreciate any advice or comments.
Cheers
Cobra

[BigJon]

You will want a TDV6 for that use.

It should have had transmission servicing and front suspension lower control arm replacements as a minimum.

[Rich84]

I answered a few of your questions in the link below. I bought my 08MY TDV6 about 6 months ago and have put about 30K on it. Drives better now than when I bought it thanks to a trans 'megaflush' and new tires. They're great all round cars. On road, off road, towing, long trips, looks fantastic whether it's towing a camper in the outback or sitting in front of a wine bar.

Obviously look out for a car with full service history. Ideally you want one serviced at 10K intervals although only a fastidious owner would do this as that is more often than LR officially requires. I say this as the servicing really must be looked after on these - they are known to spin main bearings if not serviced on time, every time, with the correct oil. This aside, the TDV6 is a stout engine and very capable.

Rough economy on my car:
-my daily mix - 30% highway, 30% city, 40% Adelaide hills - 9.6L/100km
-Long trip 2 adults light luggage, 110kmh avg - 7.9L/100km
-Long trip towing camper ~800-1000kg, some 4wding/hills - 10.5-11L/100km
That's calculated. The dash tends to be about 7.5% optimistic.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/174635-d3-operating-costs-different-engines.html#post1912179

[Grumbles]

I would suggest a read of this. It seems that the auto transmissions whether behind a petrol or diesel engine might be the [expensive] Achilles heel of these vehicles.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/455.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html#) Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/) > The Pinnacles (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/pinnacles/) > Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/range-rover/) > L322 Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/456.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html) Rebuilt gearbox subsequent problems ?

[101RRS]

I would suggest a read of this. It seems that the auto transmissions whether behind a petrol or diesel engine might be the [expensive] Achilles heel of these vehicles.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/455.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html#) Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/) > The Pinnacles (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/pinnacles/) > Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/range-rover/) > L322 Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/456.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html) Rebuilt gearbox subsequent problems ?

Different vehicle and I believe a different gearbox but your point is just as relevant.

Cobra - with normal use Landrover have set the service interval for the gearbox at 10years or 240,000km so if the vehicle has been serviced correctly the gearbox will not have been touched. The maker of the gearbox ZF recommend a service interval of somewhere around 90,000km.

If you were able to negotiate a mega flush (rather than a simple oil change) as part of the purchase deal than that would be great but given the service interval that is most unlikely. Something I would do when you get you vehicle - can work out expensive.

Garry

[Rich84]

I would suggest a read of this. It seems that the auto transmissions whether behind a petrol or diesel engine might be the [expensive] Achilles heel of these vehicles.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/455.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html#) Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/) > The Pinnacles (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/pinnacles/) > Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/range-rover/) > L322 Range Rover (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/456.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/173346-rebuilt-gearbox-subsequent-problems.html) Rebuilt gearbox subsequent problems ?


I'm wondering if you're referring to the older GM 5L40's they use in the FF's ? The RRS and D3/D4 use ZF 6HP26 trans. It's generally a lot more reliable than the 5L40 but it still has its problems, the most common being:
-ZF/LR had no service schedule for the box in spite of even ZF saying the fluid is only good for 100K, less if towing. The fluid breaks down over time and this modifies its hydraulic, thermal and friction properties. This causes wear to the clutch packs and the TCC linings. When test driving listen hard for a growling coming from the drivetrain under load. It's accompanied by slight vibration through the pedals and steering wheel. Mine has done this since I've had it and I've been able to maybe get a bit more life out of my TC by doing a megaflush. Mind you I am very pedantic, to date in my 6mo ownership, no one else has noticed it! Driver or passenger.
-Coolant ingress from the radiator situated trans cooler. No explanation needed - the gearbox usually needs a rebuild when this occurs.

[101RRS]

-ZF/LR had no service schedule for the box in spite of even ZF saying the fluid is only good for 100K, less if towing.

We need to kill this urban myth - is 10years/240,000km in normal conditions (does not include towing, stop start etc but no interval is given for arduous conditions).

However I do agree that at 240,000km/10years they might as well claim it is sealed for life.

[Rohan]

We need to kill this urban myth - is 10years/240,000km in normal conditions (does not include towing, stop start etc but no interval is given for arduous conditions).

However I do agree that at 240,000km/10years they might as well claim it is sealed for life.

Stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure ZF are now saying oil change every 80,000km regardless. I think Bill at A&B Automatics in Dandenong had a lot to do with their change of heart.

[101RRS]

The maker of the gearbox ZF recommend a service interval of somewhere around 90,000km.




Stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure ZF are now saying oil change every 80,000km regardless. I think Bill at A&B Automatics in Dandenong had a lot to do with their change of heart.

I thought I sort of said that - ok 10K out. However it is not ZF that determine the service interval in a Landie it is Landrover.

Irrespective of this I think that we all agree with ZF rather than Landrover

[Grumbles]

I guess I might have had my wires crossed but this below says maybe not so much. It all gets a bit confusing with what is common ground in the L322, the RRS and the Disco models. :confused::confused::D


off track for a moment - RRSport/D4 has the same ZF 6HP24 (rated to 600nm) as MY07-10 L322. Same issue with lack of service but unlike the L322 the RRS must have the transmission pan modified as part of the first service (rather expensive). There is a chassis member directly under the trans preventing removal of the pan.

[TerryO]

I wouldn't write of the V8 either, cheaper, faster and not that bad on fuel if you drive in a reasonable manner. Plus very reliable and much cheaper to maintain, especially as the mileage gets higher.

[cobra8272]

Thanks for the replies and the great information.

Re the gearbox, we have the same situation with the Mercedes SLK's.
Mercedes say 10 years , 300,000km and sealed unit.
At 300,000km the transmission service says "replace transmission " as part of that service - WTF !
The accepted practice is transmission service every 80,000km amongst owners.

I test drove an '06 RRS TDV6 130,000km today. Very very impressed !
And best of all the Wife loves it !

Problem was lack of service history, ok up to 75,000km , serviced every 15,000.
But big gap from 75,000 to 116,000 with no service and no transmission service at all.
Dealer price was $49,990 negotiable.

Rich84, thanks for the consumption figures, that eases my mind.
Sounds like you are very happy with your choice.

Just with the one drive I know i want a RRS and though it will take 8 - 10 months to get one , i am on 'The Journey'.
The V8 has still not been banished but i will need a bit more investigation and a test drive.

Once again thanks for all the help !

[camel_landy]

FWIW - The diesel V8 is the perfect engine for that car and a cracker for towing.

M

[cobra8272]

The V8 is very tempting but what fuel consumption could i expect towing ???

[Barryp]

I guess its a bit like the question "how big is an apple".
Depends on the weight and drag of what you are towing, pretty hard to guestimate.
A box trailer next to nothing a large van up to twice that without it!
Plus of course driving style.
Regards
Barryp

[Rich84]

Some people say the TDV8 is more economical than the TDV6, but based on my own study it's safe to say you could add about 1L to 100km to the TDV6 figures, which is still fantastic. Of course the heavier the trailer you'd soon start using less fuel than the 6 I'm sure.

[Outta track]

I too considered the TDV6 until i drove the TDV8...... spectacular comes to mind. Trust me, once you have driven the 8 you wont want the 6.

I use mine (read: the wife's) as a mix of the wife's daily drive and to tow my 3.2 ton boat. It does it with absolute ease. I came out of a 200 series TD V8 cruiser to the RRS. No regrets at all.

[cobra8272]

I tow a flat trailer total 900kgs.

So hopefully the best for fuel consumption.

I've read up on the TDV8 and i'm reluctant to drive one as i know thats what i'll want....

Thanks for the replies.

Any other Factory recalls or updates i should be aware of ?

Cobra

[Calis]

Hi Cobra,

my two bits of what I would check and do for that vehicle with all the towing you will do.

No 1.
Test drive it two to three times if you can. learn more each time. it lets the shine wear off :)

so the obvious:

- service history - as much as possible
- particularly what parts have already been replaced under warranty or otherwise. Saves replacing things that do require it again so soon.

Additional
- Pre purchase inspection from reputable LR indie.
- check brake rotors
- get control arms wheel bearing check/CV joints checked

And if your going to tow allot I would do this:
- if possible find one WITHOUT a towbar and put one on
- assume gearbox oil never changed. flush and steal pan filter straight away
- replace rotors and pads
- replace engine oil and filter
- wheel alignment

Some would say this is overkill but I would rather spend some extra money and have piece of mind for those components. Most of the above I can do myself so I understand the additional parts and labour cost associated with those changes.

[cobra8272]

Hi Calis

Thanks for the advice and information.
I really love the RRS but i have heard a lot of horror stories about the
cost of running them.

I will do about 30,000km a year and want to keep the vehicle for about 4 - 5 years.
So if I can buy a 2006 with about 100,000km i will do around 220,000 to 250,000km.
Is my expectation realistic or am going to face massive Bills to keep the vehicle running ie. more than $5000 per year in maintenance?

I would accept $15,000 to $20,000 over the 5 years to have the enjoyment of an RRS.

If you or anyone can give some real life experiences it would be great.

Thanks for all the help, you guys are great .

Thanks
Cobra

[101RRS]

How do you come to that conclusion.

The cost of maintenance of a RRS is the same as a D3. Likewise with the same driving pattern with a vehicle of the same age etc - not much different to comparable other makes such as a 200 series Cruiser, Patrol etc.

I have had my RRS for 2 1/2 years and 40,000km - my costs have been $1200 tyres (were low when I bought the car), EGRs $400, Brake pads $300 (with fluid), 3x services $1000.

Coming up I expect gearbox steel pan $300, 20 litres of gearbox oil $550. Tyres show no wear at 10,000km so will most likely get 60,000 - 80,000km so not really a cost issue yet. I need to change diff and transfer case oil also - cost will be no more than a couple of hundred.

You soon learn where to get work done and where to buy parts - thankfully I can do the basics.

So if you are having doubts about the servicing costs of a RRS then most other modern 4wds would also have to go off the shopping list.

Garry

[cobra8272]

Hi Garry
Thanks for the reply.
Thats the sort of info i'm seeking.
I have come across horror stories but generally are because of poor servicing.
If the RRS is no more expensive than a 100 or 200 series or a patrol then i'm in.

I have had the BMW X5 recommended but i gets the same write ups as the RRS.

So overall i would much rather an RRS !

Starting to think of a 4.4V8 and LPG !

Cheers

Andy

[TerryO]

Before you rush off in that direction have you worked out how much it will cost to have a LPG kit installed and then worked out how many umpteen tens of thousands of kilometres you will have to drive to break even?

Work it out first you might get a shock how long it takes to get even close to breaking even. Plus how easy is it to get LPG in rural WA, that could be a possible concern if your planning to spend time in the country.

Unless your doing a lot of heavy towing I wouldn't worry to much about how hungry the V8's are on fuel, providing your not a lead foot, and if you are doing lots of towing then a diesel is probably a better option anyway.

Good luck with your decision.

[Rich84]

I went through the same decision process as you probably are now, and tested all the European SUVs and ended up in an 08 RRS. The X5 is fantastic on the road and the 3.0 diesel is a very punchy engine... would destroy most CARS on the road let alone 4wds and if you can find a manual, the fuel economy is unbelievable! That said, it is not a 4wd in any real sense - it has ride height of the RRS in 'road' mode, but:
-hopeless suspension articulation
-no low range
-no underbody protection
-no air suspension to raise above road mode

The RRS being basically a D3 has all of that and is still a great drive on the road.

You need to think about what driving you're going to be doing.
-Big road trips and medium towing with LIGHT offroading, get the X5, it's a great car.
-Any kind of offroading other than dirt roads, get the RRS. You won't be sorry you did. Nothing like rolling up to a camp site in a national park and saying 'let's see where that track goes' and not worrying about whether your car will make it or not. Also if you're a music junkie (I am), the RRS Harman/kardon stereo is genuinely light years ahead of the X5's.

I was apprehensive of the horror stories as well. When you consider over 15K members on disco3.com and an engine failure maybe once every couple of months out of that bunch, at least half of which can be put down to maintenance issues, you have to rule out engine failure as a common problem on well looked after vehicles. Trans failure is more common and the torque converter seems to be the first thing that fails. Think of that as a clutch wearing out on a manual (it does actually have a wet clutch and that is what wears out) - it happens to all cars and when you have a 2.8 tonne car with a torquey engine in front of it, it's not hard to see why.

[Eurohaus Prestige]

Hi Cobra8272,

As far as engine selection from a repairer point of view since RRS was released in 05 till now we have replaced more TDV6 engines than TDV8,
4.2 SC and 4.4 NA under warranty at low km and retail at high km.

If it is fuel economy your chasing I would be choosing the TDV8,

Now the most common faults I get on RRS and things to look out for would be

* Front lower control arm bushes ball joints wear.
* EAS pump weak update available.
* Rear Diff whine at speeds
* transmission shudder usually on vehicle 130k an up
* Water entry issues through sunroof

The guys are spot on in suggesting a full service history/warranty check
and one at those high KM WITHOUT a towbar.

My appologies about the long post if you do test drive one and not sure
of anything happy to reply.

Regards
Wael

[Rich84]

Hi Weal,
What failures are you seeing mainly on the TDV6 engines and what is the failure rate you are seeing?

TIA

[Eurohaus Prestige]

Hi Rich84,

The most common TDV6 failure and not due to neglect is
the engine valve rocker needle rollers falling apart and going
right through the engine in those cases we traced the cause to
oil pump operation issue.

Always listen for this issue starting out usually on initial start up the
engine will be a little noisy for few seconds more than smooth out to
normal. like you have just changed the oil and filter every time you start

and the other obviously from neglect and stretching the service interval
bottom end bearing failure.

Regards
Wael

[Rich84]

Thanks Wael, that's interesting - I've spent a long time lurking on disco3 and I don't think I ever saw that specific failure except on a very high mileage vehicle (think it had 450K miles!)

I note that after I change the oil and filter on my TDV6 I get the ticking and slight increase in engine noise for about 3-4 seconds. That's accompanied by the oil light. Then it smooths out and is fine.

Normally on a cold start I'll get the same situation for up to 1.5 seconds. Noise stops the instant the oil light goes out.

Does that sound normal enough?

Have you seen any failures relating to the oil pump casing breaking off where the timing belt tension is mounted to it? Seems to be a few failures of this type over in the UK and I've heard of a couple here too.

[Eurohaus Prestige]

No worries at all.. you really should have no sound what so ever on cold start
I notice as the engine oil comes close to that interval change they do
rattle on cold start a little.

Haven't had any casing break at all just low pressure feed.
WOW! definetly would like a link to this issue..

I recommend a cold start test with old oil time the sound.
carry out oil change using correct grade and then compare
cold start again we recommend Mobil 1 ESP 5W30.

Let me know how you go

Cheers
Wael

[sheerluck]

......Haven't had any casing break at all just low pressure feed.
WOW! definetly would like a link to this issue..

Just here DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Cam belt tensioner mount broke!!!!...... (http://disco3.co.uk/forum/topic57636.html?highlight=Oil+pump)

There's also a poll on the same site trying to establish what MY was the most prone to the failure too.

[Eurohaus Prestige]

Thanks heaps for that Sheerluck just had a quick read never ever seen
that happen in OZ especially at 115k its pretty suspicious that it had a
new belt and tensioners/pulley not long before that

What you think?

[sheerluck]

Found the poll too: DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Cam belt tensioner mount failure survey (http://disco3.co.uk/forum/topic80001.html?vote=viewresult)

22 failures, 9 of which were after belt replacement. Early model years seemed to be prone to failure after belt replacement, later model years without belt replacement.

Plus the fact that the part in question has been superseded about 5 times.....

[Eurohaus Prestige]

thanks mate .. thats really interesting do we have anything like that
here in OZ

[Rich84]

I have the new oil pump LR013487 at home ready for install hopefully next weekend; the casing has been beefed up substantially over the old one where the tensioner mounts, and it is cast from a different alloy that looks very similar in colour to the CGI that the block is cast from. The older design looks very much like cast aluminium or magnesium.

Wael have you been able to track down the cause of the low oil pressure?Is it a fault with the original pump? How often do you see this failure and is it more common on different MYs?

My car is 2K off service and I use Penrite Enviro+ 5/30. I do notice the noise more when it is due for a service (which I do at 10K, which I would've thought to be ok, car is usually driven over 50km at a time) as I said it lasts about a second when the car is first turned on and it sounds a bit like lifter noise only much softer. I will time the noise before and after service and report back.

Have also seen one or two T/belt tensioner bolts fail (this apparently caused by hydrogen embrittlement in the metal). Have seen a cam pulley bolt shear off; trashed engine. Have seen melted pistons due to overfuelling. Have not seen a timing belt fail that wasn't caused by one of the above.

[sheerluck]

I've heard of a couple, but they've all been mates' cousins' friends uncle who met someone down the dog park who had been told of one that they think happened, rather than anyone closer.

[Eurohaus Prestige]

No problem at all Rich84 let me know cheers,

Ill chase up more info from LR spares tomorrow ill keep you
update cheers

[cobra8272]

Hi Wael

Thank you for the post and i really appreciate the information and efforts
to educate me.

The more i look into the RRS and compare it other Prestige SUV type vehicles, I realise it is no more "Faulty " or higher maintenance.
It is no more costly to run if it's properly maintained.

Yet no other SUV has its Unique appearance.

It will be later in the year before I can purchase my RRS but i will look and learn and test a few.

No doubt i will find "The One" before i'm ready.
But I now know what to start looking for.

All posts are very much appreciated

Cobra

[101RRS]

I know that we seem to have lost the battle about using the American term SUV in Australia but it would be nice to try and not use it and stay with our good old aussie terms of 4wd and /or softroader for the light weight stuff.:D

Garry

[Rich84]

Just as a follow up, I completed the timing belt and oil pump replacement over the weekend, not a job for a beginner but nothing like what the poms are carrying on about either. Took about 8 hours. The lower bolt undoes and does back up easily with a 1200mm breaker.

Visually, no cracks or signs of fatigue on my old pump. I will however pull it to pieces at some point to see if there is much wear on the pump gears.

I left the old oil in the car and ran it for 200km before changing it and noticed that the oil pressure light disappears in about 1/2 the time across the board. Now that I've changed the oil, on warm starts it is there for a flash and then gone. Cold starts, maybe 1/2 a second. I wonder what long term implication this has?

Bottom line is I would definitely replace the pump and be on the safe side. It only cost me 56 pounds which is CHEAP for what it is (less than a fuel filter!!) and what it is representing is peace of mind with your engine (which we all know is going to cost at least 200 times more than that to repair, should that pump fail)...

[101RRS]

The problem I have is that the 7 year time limit for the belts is coming up but I have only covered less than half the required 160,000km.

So the big risky question is - do you or do you not change on time??? The requirement is obviously there for a reason - a real need to change or just to protect the manufacturer from legal action resulting from an older belt failure that had low kms on it.

Rich - how was your old belt - contaminates from the engine such as grease and oil etc.

Oh - you only mentioned the timing belt - what about the harder belt to change - the fuel pump belt at the back of the engine - needs to be changed at the same time.

Garry

[Rich84]

The problem I have is that the 7 year time limit for the belts is coming up but I have only covered less than half the required 160,000km.

So the big risky question is - do you or do you not change on time??? The requirement is obviously there for a reason - a real need to change or just to protect the manufacturer from legal action resulting from an older belt failure that had low kms on it.

Rich - how was your old belt - contaminates from the engine such as grease and oil etc.

Oh - you only mentioned the timing belt - what about the harder belt to change - the fuel pump belt at the back of the engine - needs to be changed at the same time.

Garry

I changed my belt late at 190,000km. I had it all apart at 166K ready to change, but tried to rattle the lower bolt undone and couldn't - THANK GOD FOR THAT - I HADN'T REALISED AT THAT POINT THE LOWER PULLEY HAD NO KEYWAY!! Nearly got myself in some deep s**t there! The belt at that point looked fine. The silicone compound that it is made of showed no wear or cracks whatsoever, the belt was as thick as the new one, and still had all the factory barcodes/model nos/etc printed on it. No obvious contaminates. It looked fine so I decided to risk it a bit longer while I did a bit more digging on the oil pump issue. Looks no different now. If you bend it at an extreme angle backward you can see the light coloured material on the underside is starting to crack. Really that's about all. The pulleys were all functioning as per brand new, had good resistance and absolutely no movement. The window on the tensioner had moved about 2mm out of alignment to cope with the stretch of the belt.

Personally for a parts cost of about $250 I would just change the belt at the 7 year interval. It is very straightforward to change. It's the oil pump that turns it into a larger scale job.

I didn't do the rear belt as at approximately 100k the HPFP was changed as part of the EU4 pump recall and part of that is changing the belt. I'm happy to leave that till up to 250K seeing as it is not dangerous to the engine if it breaks. Also I have seen such belts run balance shafts etc well past 350K.