RIP Defender....

[Fifth Columnist]

Plans for new Land Rover Defender shaken up | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/plans-new-land-rover-defender-shaken)

[Cobber]

If the report is to be believed, how far do they go before Land Rover stop being Land Rover? Dropping a 'base' model surely is walking away from what made them great in the first place?

I would have thought that they sell enough Defenders currently to justify the new one, otherwise LR would have stop making them ages ago ... ?

[samuelclarke]

If it was April I'd say it was a joke. I guess time will tell if this story is true - it goes against everything Land Rover have been saying lately though!

Glad I'm rebuilding mine. :D

[weeds]

i don't see a problem with land rover moving on.........thats business, my bet is whatever they bring out will outsell the defenders

prett happy that i have defender though, when it needs replacing i will see what the market has to offer

[Dougal]

Reads like pure speculation.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If the report is to be believed, how far do they go before Land Rover stop being Land Rover? Dropping a 'base' model surely is walking away from what made them great in the first place?

I would have thought that they sell enough Defenders currently to justify the new one, otherwise LR would have stop making them ages ago ... ?Have you walked into a Jeep dealership and asked for an MB? What about a Jaguar dealer and asked for an E-Type?

About the only automotive manufacturer that still makes its model that made them great is Morgan.

No automotive manufacturer is going to continue to build a low volume model that is illegal to sell in Europe and North America, and which at the same time uses expensive labour intensive processes to build, in a factory that would be most efficiently utilised to expand production of high volume models using the latest production robots.

I think I'll sit back and watch what actually ends up happening.

[Cobber]

Have you walked into a Jeep dealership and asked for an MB? What about a Jaguar dealer and asked for an E-Type?

About the only automotive manufacturer that still makes its model that made them great is Morgan.Fair call, but by taking away a 'base' model, surely they are pricing themselves out of the market? Unless it's a market they aren't really interested in anymore? (I realise a new Defender isn't that cheap!:D) Granted they don't have as big a slice as Toyota et al, but surely it's still worth contending (with a new model) :BigThumb:


No automotive manufacturer is going to continue to build a low volume model that is illegal to sell in Europe and North America, and which at the same time uses expensive labour intensive processes to build, in a factory that would be most efficiently utilised to expand production of high volume models using the latest production robots.This was raised about the new Defender, not the old - would the new one be illegal to sell in Europe and North America? Is it labour intensive to build? Surely the new one would be built with the best robotic technologies available to them, thus reducing costs? :confused: Ultimately I guess it's all about margins, and if they can make a bigger margin selling a Premium car then I guess that's what they will do seeing how they are already in the market.

As you say, all we can do is sit back and watch what unfolds :)

[Davo]

Stories like this pop up every few years in some form or other. The company has done so little with the Defender for so long it's doomed anyway.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fair call, but by taking away a 'base' model, surely they are pricing themselves out of the market? Unless it's a market they aren't really interested in anymore? (I realise a new Defender isn't that cheap!:D) Granted they don't have as big a slice as Toyota et al, but surely it's still worth contending (with a new model) :BigThumb:I don't think JLR are even considering the market share of Toyota, but what is JLRs Defender market volume and how they will produce it with the available resources calculating in reduced support from Tata.
This was raised about the new Defender, not the old - would the new one be illegal to sell in Europe and North America? Is it labour intensive to build? Surely the new one would be built with the best robotic technologies available to them, thus reducing costs? :confused: Ultimately I guess it's all about margins, and if they can make a bigger margin selling a Premium car then I guess that's what they will do seeing how they are already in the market.

As you say, all we can do is sit back and watch what unfolds :)Yes we are talking about the new model. But we already know that the current defender doesn't meet US Regs and won't meet upcoming EU Regs so old Defender can only be produced for Developing World countries who can not afford purchasing vehicles with UK labour costs. This is likely the reason for the Sri Lankan factory to continue some production where Defender continues to be legal.

On the new Defender replacement, there has been discussion for several years that the L660 will likely be on the Disco 4 or 5 platform but without the high tech features like EAS and possibly even with rear leaf suspension for the load carrying commercial models, not unlike the Nissan Patrol trayback.
With the reduced development support from Tata, my guess JLR have decided to invest what capital they have on the new alloy platform which will maximise load carrying, rather than spending money on a short term band aid solution to build the L660 on the current D4/RRS platform.

It won't be the first time Land Rover have left dealers without a Defender. It happened with the change over from SIII/Stage 1 to the 110 models, when Australian dealers were without supply for 18 months.

[Davo]

As usual with online articles, the comments are more entertaining than the copy:

"Ever heard of a Land Cruiser? As a work vehicle, as a rugged all terrain go anywhere vehicle, as a four wheel drive, it defecates from a great height on anything Land Rover produces. That is why nobody who NEEDS an off-road vehicle buys a Land Rover.

Sent from a mine site in the middle of the Australian desert!"

Ahh, mining people, so erudite. Weren't Toyota dropping the LandCruiser anyway?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As usual with online articles, the comments are more entertaining than the copy:

"Ever heard of a Land Cruiser? As a work vehicle, as a rugged all terrain go anywhere vehicle, as a four wheel drive, it defecates from a great height on anything Land Rover produces. That is why nobody who NEEDS an off-road vehicle buys a Land Rover.

Sent from a mine site in the middle of the Australian desert!"

Ahh, mining people, so erudite. Weren't Toyota dropping the LandCruiser anyway?Hi Davo

Yes I have heard of Land Cruiser, I will long remember drilling out the rivits on the suspension so that we could replace them with HT bolts so the spring mounts didn't fall off. I also know of the V8 200 series that you can't afford to drive past a service station for fear of running out of fuel. I have also heard that the only make model that comes anywhere near meeting current mine site accreditation is the Isuzu/Holden Colarado.

So why bother with Toyota/Nissan or Land Rover.

[Tombie]

And the Amarok...

Current Ford Ranger

Triton

Prado

And my Discovery 4 :)

It's mine spec so I can take it to work!
(Magnetic markings etc)

[solmanic]

Interesting that Land Rover appear to be running up the white flag on the Defender whilst Mercedes-Benz are expanding the market of their G-Professional (due here in August if on-line chatter can be believed). And that doesn't even have a logical price-point.

[newhue]

oh dear, compete with Toyota, something is going to change.

[bob10]

I posted this earlier, Bob
Defender to be built in Sri Lanka
From Land Rover Monthly, June 2013;

" Although the veteran Defenders days are numbered in the UK, it is about to get a new lease of life in Sri Lanka, where a local company has announced plans to build a plant to assemble the vehicles

They will be built by SML Frontier Automotive, a subsidiary of Sathosa Motors. Sri Lanka's Daily news reported that production is expected to commence late this year. The company will be investing US $1 million to build the plant on land near Hambantota Port, into which the completely knocked- down [ CKD] parts would arrive from the UK. Sansosa Motors, the Parent firm, already has the agency for Japan's Isuzu brand.

Although the current Defender is due to be phased out in 2015 in Europe & North America to meet stringent emissions & safety laws, the new move raises the question of whether the 30 year old workhorse will continue being produced in the third World for years to come. " Bob

[Tombie]

Honestly people... Move on!

Focker Friendships, Model T Fords, Phones with coiled wires and winders, Cameras that took film, Carrier Pigeons, Conventional Ovens (No microwaves), Hills hoists, Furniture CRT TVs under 34cm, Betamax...

All iconic, all great - all outdated

The Defender has had it's run.

Discovery etc will go all the same places, just as Prado, Land Cruiser and Patrol have for years...

There's a big difference between rugged by necessity and rugged by choice/image.

When people recognise its often wants rather than needs... Then people may recognise that the market supports that - its called business.

Would I take my D4 everywhere I took the Defender? Absolutely...

Can it go there? Absolutely.. In fact at times it's done tracks I've driven before easier (and a damn measure more comfort)

[Reads90]

You are talking about Australian market share

Toyota are nothing in Europe. Where as defenders are everywhere. All building sites work places farms and pretty much anyone that has a horse.

It is the total oppersite to here in Aus

[sheerluck]

You are talking about Australian market share

Toyota are nothing in Europe. Where as defenders are everywhere. All building sites work places farms and pretty much anyone that has a horse.

It is the total oppersite to here in Aus

I'd hardly ever seen a Land Cruiser before I moved to Oz, apart from on the TV, and then they all had UN markings on the side!

So Toyota have really found a niche here, and exploited it well.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Honestly people... Move on!

<snip>

Would I take my D4 everywhere I took the Defender? Absolutely...

Can it go there? Absolutely.. In fact at times it's done tracks I've driven before easier (and a damn measure more comfort) X 2

The D4 in stock configuration is a much more capable vehicle than the Defender in stock. The D4 is more comfortable, has more space and walks over obstacles that a Defender rocks, rolls and side slips over. Been there done that. The down side of the D4 is the limited carrying capacity.

With an alloy subframe and body shell there will be more comfort and load capacity, we just have to open our minds and move forward. After all jumbo jets and armoured vehicles have been made in aluminium alloy for 50 years.

[ramblingboy42]

jeez guys, I thought we were talking Land Rover here.....why does it always swing to Toyota bashing?

[Disco Muppet]

jeez guys, I thought we were talking Land Rover here.....why does it always swing to Toyota bashing?

Because it's fun :p :twisted: :wasntme:

[Reads90]

jeez guys, I thought we were talking Land Rover here.....why does it always swing to Toyota bashing?

Sorry but where was the Toyota bashing.

[sheerluck]

jeez guys, I thought we were talking Land Rover here.....why does it always swing to Toyota bashing?

No Toyota bashing on my part, all I've said is that they have very cleverly found a niche market for themselves. Can't comment on the product itself as I've never owned one.

However, Toyota owner attitudes......:angel:

[Fifth Columnist]

I don't know how it is in Australia but in GB the Defender has the smallest depreciation of any vehicle.
If used Landies fetch such a high price the overall demand must be still very high.

[vnx205]

Honestly people... Move on!

... .....

The Defender has had it's run.

Discovery etc will go all the same places, just as Prado, Land Cruiser and Patrol have for years...

... .... ...

Would I take my D4 everywhere I took the Defender? Absolutely...

Can it go there? Absolutely.. In fact at times it's done tracks I've driven before easier (and a damn measure more comfort)

Surely "where I can take the vehicle" is not the only measure of a vehicle's capabilities, even if it is quite an important one. Yet it seems to be the measure that is most often discussed.

I couldn't fit my Trayon camper on your D4, so for me it is a less capable vehicle.

I often carried a tonne of firewood or a tonne of second hand sandstock bricks in my LWB Series III. I also carried a tonne of sandstone blocks, sand and soil. Your D4 would struggle with any of those, so it would have been a less capable vehicle than my Series III.

Back in the days when it was legal, I used to regularly carry 11 people in the Series III, because I had the army seats for 8 people down the sides in the back. If your D4 had existed back then, it would not have had seating for that many people, so it would have been a less capable vehicle.

There are other things that make a vehicle useful apart from being able to go places where other vehicles struggle.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

+1 on capability being a function of mostly what you need it for, and only some of what you want it for... :angel:

I reckon it is a huge stretch to try to compare the Defender vs a D4 given the differences: especially around creature comforts, load carrying capacity and price!

PS: Yes the Defender is a dinosaur, but that's why we love it isn't it? :D

[roverrescue]

The down side of the D4 is the limited carrying capacity.
-and its so bloody heavy
-and it doesnt have a tray

I dont need to drive fast on bitumen - i need a tray and load capacity and something that doesnt cost a bomb so I dont care if it lies down, hits a tree or runs on a beach.

My problem is in a few years old skool vehicles WILL be outlawed

Nothing built since about 2000 has given me any inspiration. All the new dual cabs bring the suck in so many ways. Just give me a tutu and a majic wand then perhaps ill feel at home in one.

I guess until mechanical injection diesos get the axe I wil be happily happy.

S

[isuzurover]

I am still waiting to see this D3/D4/RRS that is so good offroad as all the owners claim...

All those I have seen in action first hand have been a disappointment.

(but I think those holding out for a new defender are fooling themselves)

[Red90]

I am still waiting to see this D3/D4/RRS that is so good offroad as all the owners claim...

All those I have seen in action first hand have been a disappointment

I'm with Ben here. The ones I've seen and wheeled with can't follow my mostly stock Defender or Jeep for that matter up anything I would consider hard.

[Alra]

As usual with online articles, the comments are more entertaining than the copy:

"Ever heard of a Land Cruiser? As a work vehicle, as a rugged all terrain go anywhere vehicle, as a four wheel drive, it defecates from a great height on anything Land Rover produces. That is why nobody who NEEDS an off-road vehicle buys a Land Rover.

Sent from a mine site in the middle of the Australian desert!"

Ahh, mining people, so erudite. Weren't Toyota dropping the LandCruiser anyway?

I live in Cloncurry, NW Queensland, and my last work vehicle was a 100 series cruiser. I'll take my Deefer any day over that thing. I have previously owner a V8 D1, would also pick that over a cruiser. My current work car is a Prado and it is pretty good. I would still prefer the Deefer though.

On a separate note, I'm currently visiting relos in the UK (going between Oxfordshire and Northamptonshire) and can't walk out the front door without seeing a Deefer on the road. They are everywhere so surely they sell enough in the UK alone to bring out a new model Deefer whatever incarnation it takes.

Cheers,

Danial.

[OffTrack]

It's worth taking a look at the 16 Model graphic that was floating around last year. After the RR and RRS launches it's not looking so over the top.

The only proposed "Defender" model that fits with the comments in the story about using a separate chassis and tackling the Toyota commercial SUV market head on is the proposed Dual Cab ute, which was to be built on the T5 platform used by the D4. The direct replacements for the 90 and 110 were thought to the "Premium" Defenders and weren't due to 2016-7.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/396.jpg

There was an article in a recent Autocar announcing the next Freelander would be badged a Discovery, with the Freelander brand being killed off.

I just came across an article from April where McGovern seemed to be stepping back from the Ute/Crewcab slightly. It had become a "if we could get it to work financially"... and "But Land Rover design boss Gerry McGovern said that if a 'lifestyle' oriented ute did get the green light, it wouldn't be in the same vein as some of Australia's most popular workhorse utes."

That is a bit different to the 16 Model grid where the Ute/Dual Cab is the initial model released. I'm thinking the Autocar article might be beating up what was already being hinted at.

cheers
Paul

[mikehzz]

As long as Tata and their awesome design team stay away from Land Rover. Check out their crossover SUV....

SUV | Indian Crossover | Tata Motors - Tata Aria (http://www.tataaria.com/)

[minibloodhound]

I am still waiting to see this D3/D4/RRS that is so good offroad as all the owners claim...

All those I have seen in action first hand have been a disappointment.

(but I think those holding out for a new defender are fooling themselves)

If you're ever in NSW I'm up for a comparo if your defender is up for it! ;-)

[Fifth Columnist]

Land Rover - The world's most versatile vehicle.
Anyone remember that poster from the Series II days?
It showed dozens of different body options and styles on 2+ chassis and a choice of engines.
How can you offer all that on something that doesn't have a chassis?

[TeamFA]

Re: the point about not needing Defenders because a D3/D4 is at least as capable... I wouldn't doubt that a D3/D4 in stock trim would be as capable as a Defender in same.

One of the things I look for in a vehicle, though, is not just the capability, but the whole package of owning the thing. An important part of that is the simplicity of servicing and repair. I can do most things on the Defender myself, but there are many things on a D3/D4 that I would have to rely on others to fix.

This is probably the biggest attraction to the Defender for me.

[Dougal]

As long as Tata and their awesome design team stay away from Land Rover. Check out their crossover SUV....

SUV | Indian Crossover | Tata Motors - Tata Aria (http://www.tataaria.com/)

Forget their cars, Tata do trucks and military vehicles: Tata Motors Defence Vehicles | Armoured Vehicles | Mine Protected Vehicles (http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/385.jpg

[vnx205]

Re: the point about not needing Defenders because a D3/D4 is at least as capable... I wouldn't doubt that a D3/D4 in stock trim would be as capable as a Defender in same.

One of the things I look for in a vehicle, though, is not just the capability, but the whole package of owning the thing. An important part of that is the simplicity of servicing and repair. I can do most things on the Defender myself, but there are many things on a D3/D4 that I would have to rely on others to fix.

This is probably the biggest attraction to the Defender for me.

I have occasionally seen figures people have posted here about the cost of a normal service on modern vehicles and see that as a major disincentive to owning such a vehicle.

I have seen perfectly good vehicles for sale for less than the prices people repeatedly have to pay just for a routine service. :)

[solmanic]

...
My problem is in a few years old skool vehicles WILL be outlawed

Nothing built since about 2000 has given me any inspiration. ...

Sorry, but I just had to add this in here...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/100925_orc.jpg.html)

my path to the dark side is now complete...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/palpatine.jpg.html)

[manic]

Sorry, but I just had to add this in here...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/100925_orc.jpg.html)



I bet that has never been properly off road..... that exhaust would never have survived.

Back on topic.

If Land Rover do not replace the defender with something at least as useful then its total transition to a Luxury car brand will be complete.

Land Rover will end up making cars as useful as Porche Cayenne's and respect for the brands name will crumble. Porche still have their flagship 911 so the fanatics can continue to say Porche with pride but Land Rover will become a couple of embarrassing words.

So lets look at the long term forecast... Land Rover dies, Range Rover lives on - Time passes, forum users all die of old age - a new generation of brilliant consumers are born into boxes - cars are no longer needed - freedom to travel becomes virtual - AND THEN, Space Rovers! - Good times restored.

.... yes work is boring me today :p

[Davo]

I don't know, I think that's a perfectly logical end to the discussion! :p

[isuzurover]

Forget their cars, Tata do trucks and military vehicles: Tata Motors Defence Vehicles | Armoured Vehicles | Mine Protected Vehicles (http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/)


http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/UploadedLargeImage/af17d060-346d-40d3-8cf2-6740023f01d4.jpg

They also have FC variants!

http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/UploadedLargeImage/b1a3e5ec-ef70-4c77-99d2-c74898817699.jpg

And only with 48kW engiines, so all the 101 owners will feel at home...

[DiscoMick]

I suppose just because they might adopt the shared aluminium platform wouldn't stop them from producing a range of basic vehicles on it, so it may not be the end of the world yet.
Platform-sharing is a smart way to reduce manufacturing costs. The real issue would be what they attached to the platform.
If the aluminium platform is their best one, and if they then make a workhorse on it, retaining the Defender's virtues while upgrading it to comply with safety regulations then that could be a good result, couldn't it?

[solmanic]

...
If Land Rover do not replace the defender with something at least as useful then its total transition to a Luxury car brand will be complete.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/palpatine.jpg.html)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What I would want in a Defender replacement is something with more shoulder and leg room, quieter and with good air con, but one you would still be happy drilling holes for mounting stuff!

And capable off road!

[Alra]

Sorry, but I just had to add this in here...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/100925_orc.jpg.html)

my path to the dark side is now complete...

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh191/solmanic42/palpatine.jpg (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/palpatine.jpg.html)

How much does that thing cost? Is fair to say that I could buy a new Rangie for the Mrs to cruise around in and a new 90 to park along side the 110? Now that would be lovely site to greet me in the garage every morning.

[solmanic]

How much does that thing cost? Is fair to say that I could buy a new Rangie for the Mrs to cruise around in and a new 90 to park along side the 110? Now that would be lovely site to greet me in the garage every morning.

Costs way too much, hence my comment about G-Wagen's not having a logical price point. Estimated price of the G-Prof when it comes here could be around $100K, again based on interweb chatter.

A lot of people complain about not having enough shoulder room etc in Defenders, but for me it is the narrow width of them that makes them so appealing. Defenders & G-Wagens have a lot of things in common - but one is that they both fit into military helicopter transports. This also makes them much easier to drive off road where all the Disco... a-hem, Landcruiser drivers get to knock all the scratchy scrubby branches out of the way for you.

I just hope any replacement Defender doesn't suffer from American SUV bloat and end up having a track width too much over 1.5m.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Round and round the ragged rock, the Rugged Rover ran! :D

If we can't have a Defender perhaps we can at least have rugged Rover?

[mox]

Maybe a sort of precedent Land Rover could follow is what John Deere did around 1960. Up to then. their tractors all had 180 degree twin cylinder engines since JD purchased the Waterloo Boy company that initiated their Model D design in the early 1920s. When the company changed to more conventional, 3, 4 and 6 cylinder layout, tooling for the second largest twin, the JD 730 was sent for Argentina where they were produced for another 10 years. Although regarded by some as an antiquated design, they proved less prone to abuse by "cowboy" operators than most other tractors. The JD 730 was not tested by Nebraska University because it was largely mechanically the same as the 720 it superseded but with a lot of cosmetic changes to draw attention from secret development of new models. However for many years following the 720 was the most fuel efficient tractor ever to undergo the world recognised Nebraska tractor test
I would think most likely Defenders could continue to be produced profitably in Sri Lanka or India for a while with cheaper labour costs there and there would continue to be a market for them in countries where they still meet vehicle standards.


.

[33chinacars]

Could look like this

gallery (http://strive-vehicles.com/gallery.php#)

Love the 6x6 dual cab

[Sleepy]

The end of the Defender spells the end of me ever being able to afford a new Land Rover. I will never have $90k (and the rest!) plus for a D4 or RRS. (Short of winning lotto)

So all you D4/RRS drivers who remind us your vehicle will go anywhere my 90 will go ( but doesn't :P) please look after my future purchase!

[frantic]

Thats the big difference that sleepy hit on the head. Cost for cost or bang for your buck the defender is far more cost effective than a disco. A defender is usually around $30,000 cheaper than a disco that can do most of what a defender does off road. Add to that the depreciation on a defender is way less than a disco and the dollars are truly ringing in the D3/4 owners ears. Now a disco is a faster quieter on road auto but for $30 k you could fit a range of engines, an auto tranny and a hub adaptor to fit disco 18+ in wheels and road tyres with change:D

[Reads90]

Well it has been a subject that has been around for years.

Here is the prototype new defender from back in the early 90's. those poms on the forum will notice it is on j plate which is 1991. This was when they were going to scrap the defender as we know it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/275.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/276.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/277.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/278.jpg

[goingbush]

Funky gear selectors, hows the uncluttered floor (did they forget to put a gearbox in it) ??

what about the one piece Bonnett / grille, see a few bumped heads there , like the old Mercedes 220S , still got a scar on my noggin from that one.

[Fifth Columnist]

The latest......
Time to say goodbye to Land Rover's utilitarian roots | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/industry/time-say-goodbye-land-rovers-utilitarian-roots)

[Cobber]

The latest......
Time to say goodbye to Land Rover's utilitarian roots | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/industry/time-say-goodbye-land-rovers-utilitarian-roots)I don't agree with this statement 'Secondly, building a rugged off-roader that would compete on quality and price with all-conquering Toyota would not be easy.'

Toyota's quality, particularly in it's bigger cars has been slipping over the last decade. I know a few people that have had some quite significant problems with the V8s and are seriously considering what else is out there. Land Rover could never match the sheer quanitity though (and cost reduction that goes with it)

It'll be sad to see Land Rover shift their focus entirely to Premium vehicles, and it's a move I don't really agree with. It may prove to bite them in the arse in 20 years time, then again, they may well be the leader of the market. Only time will tell if it's the correct thing to do :)

[goingbush]

Time then to go back to where it all started,
Landrover Utilitarian Roots are actually Jeep,

(as if anyone dosent know the Prototype Landrover was infact built on a Jeep Chassis)

Wonder what the outcry would be in USA if Jeep were to drop the JK Wrangler.

Now if one wants needs capable coil sprung live axle 4WD that complies with Australian ADR's what choice will we have ?

Jeep JK Wrangler
Mercedes G (well outside price range
..... meybey they should bring out a poverty pack ??? )

[Fifth Columnist]

....or the Mahindra Defender?

[solmanic]

...Now if one wants needs capable coil sprung live axle 4WD that complies with Australian ADR's what choice will we have ?

Jeep JK Wrangler
Mercedes G (well outside price range
..... meybey they should bring out a poverty pack ??? )

The G-Professional is still on the cards although not likely to cost less than about $90K. And they don't even come with any radio.

I am not entirely opposed to the comment in that article that the replacement Defender might have to go further upmarket. As long as it retains its basic roots, many people buing new might just accept a price hike from the $50K range up to say $80K. This is still only around Toyota 76 series money and as others have pointed out, Toyota is losing some of its quality.

Most diehard Defender enthusiasts buy secondhand anyway so Land Rover can pocket the increased profit from a more premium product which will inevitably filter down to the secondhand market. There near-new $40-50K Defenders can satisfy the more adveturous users looking to break them properly once the warranty has run out.

If Land Rover got the design for an all new $80K Defender right then they just might pull some customers out of Nissan Patrols and poverty pack Landcruisers as well as drag some of their loyal new vehicle purchasers up to a higher price point.

[Davo]

It's still the same old stupidity. Toyota and Nissan have proven that there is a huge market for workhorses. Land Rover has done nothing to improve the Defender and grab their share of that market - no bigger engine, unbreakable gearbox, and most importantly, no advertising or dealer network to speak of.

They've been embarrassed by the Landie since the '50s when it made the most money and that money went to prop up Rover cars. In the '70s they did almost nothing on the SIII while Toyota took over the market and Rover cars started the long decline into their eventual demise. And now we have a company that seems to hide the Defender out the back while pushing the "premium" vehicles, just like they used to with the Rover cars.

Unless there's a sudden change in approach, I expect they'll get right out of the workhorse market, and then another company will exploit the gap and build a simple and affordable 4wd, just like Rover did in the '40s.

[goingbush]

To sum up what Davo said, by using a cliche..... History repates Itself !!

Ummm not a hard choice, G-Professional @90k or plush upmarket Defender @80k, I'll cash my hard earned in on deutschmarks, ......Theres nothing worth listening to on the radio anyway ;)

[ramblingboy42]

Have any of you noticed that Land Rover have said nothing on this issue. The words of doom are spoken by motoring journalists who say they have "impeccable" sources of information but cannot name them. Land Rover said earlier that they were going to remain totally tight lipped on the Defender's future and they have. That's why we are hearing stories like in this thread.

[Mick_Marsh]

Mercedes G (well outside price range
..... meybey they should bring out a poverty pack ??? )
They do. The last time I priced it it was around $170k.

[isuzurover]

They do. The last time I priced it it was around $170k.

Yes but that is the IFS version, not the G-wagen professional which has solid axles F+R and is not (yet) sold in AU.

The G-Professional sells for ~E80k.

It would be fun to buy one in Germany and drive it back...

[Fifth Columnist]

An Evoque gets sold somewhere in the world every 5 minutes (Quote from LR).
Do they need the Defender?

[Pickles2]

They do. The last time I priced it it was around $170k.
$170K??....for a "decent" version...with some decent AMG power....much more than that I think?...$250K...maybe.....for a V8,....but what we really want is what the Arabs get....and what the Yanks can't get....nor can we....V12 Power....and SIX WHEEL DRIVE....even in the sand dunes....completely unstoppable!
Cheers, Pickles.

[Davo]

An Evoque gets sold somewhere in the world every 5 minutes (Quote from LR).
Do they need the Defender?

Yes, maybe that's what the company reckon. But I reckon if you already have the product, then you may as well make some money from it. The enduring mystery is why they haven't bothered over here for something like two or three decades.

[Fifth Columnist]

Even BMW had some idea of what a Land Rover meant.
The 1998 50th anniversary celebration.
From my article in LRO...........

The words of Dr. Hasselkuss, in his speech at Gaydon, are addressed as much to you who are reading this, as they were to the crowds gathered there:
“If it wasn’t for you, the enthusiasts, Land Rover wouldn’t be what it is today. I thank you all.”

[PAT303]

You lot need a bex and a lie down,the next defender will be a world beater. Pat

[Tombie]

:twisted:
You lot need a bex and a lie down,the next defender will be a world beater. Pat

Sage advice Pat....



Some people just cant move on...

Yet they probably all have a nice shiny Plasma or LED on the wall...

What ever happened to the good old 34cm B&W Furniture style TV???
They've all lost focus on what a TV really was :angel:

[Davo]

Oh, don't start that again. I don't care if the Defender survives, it just happens to be a very good design that isn't promoted. Are you guys still writing with pens and drinking out of mugs? Some functional designs reach a point where they can't be improved on that much.

[manic]

:twisted:

Sage advice Pat....



Some people just cant move on...

Yet they probably all have a nice shiny Plasma or LED on the wall...

What ever happened to the good old 34cm B&W Furniture style TV???
They've all lost focus on what a TV really was :angel:

U can put a nice shiny new LED Screen in the back of a defender... what are you on about?

If the new defender steps away from utility and moves into luxury it might as well be something else, not a defender. Who knows if they are working on project 'Defender' or project 'Pretender'. Lets just hope if it is project Pretender they don't call it a Defender. Oh yeah it's rhyming time.:p

If I work hard with a shovel would I replace my hardy shovel with a new shovel made out of plastic, a leather grip, led mood lights, bluetooth audio and a USB slot. Only people who want to look good holding a shovel would buy that because they have no intention of putting it to work. Was that any better as an analogy?- probably not...

There is already alot of choice out there for luxury, killing the utility land rover would give us less choice. You can have a lexus LS460L sitting along side a defender and I would say you are moving along quite nicely... There is absolutely no need for a luxury defender.

[Tombie]

Oh, don't start that again. I don't care if the Defender survives, it just happens to be a very good design that isn't promoted. Are you guys still writing with pens and drinking out of mugs? Some functional designs reach a point where they can't be improved on that much.

Well.... Thats an interesting analogy...

Here is a pen from the 60's...

Non ergonomic
Straight body
Simple
Can cause writers cramp
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61469&stc=1&d=1370574253

And here is a new style pen

Improved ergonomics
Soft touch
writes smoother
no ink blotches
reduces writers cramp
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Vastly different, yet also a functional device :cool:

[Tombie]

If I work hard with a shovel would I replace my hardy shovel with a new shovel made out of plastic, a leather grip, led mood lights, bluetooth audio and a USB slot. Only people who want to look good holding a shovel would buy that because they have no intention of putting it to work. Was that any better as an analogy?- probably not...

Yes.... A shovel....

Heres a Shovel :)
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61471&stc=1&d=1370574690

And heres an Ergonomic Shovel :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Both are functional shovels...

One is just "nicer" to use... It still does the same job.. But is less likely to hurt your back, make your arms sore or induce a repetitive strain injury :)

Today, we can also get shovels with composite handles, alloy blades etc, resulting in a lighter, stronger shovel. Should we return to the time of heavy cast blades, and bet pieces of tree branch?

[Tombie]

Is a Range Rover still a Range Rover?

The original was a sparse, barely equipped vehicle...
The modern one powders your nose, cools or heats your bum...
Has better stereo systems than many houses..
TV set built in

Is it still the good old Range Rover?

What about the RRS? Surely its some sort of abomination...



Toyota has a market with its utilitarian range, so does LR...

Well guess what people - LVs (Hilux etc) are now replacing almost ALL these tasks and doing 99% of them without issue.

Only the very specialised tasks are using the 78s etc..

In a world market, only Australia is the sales point for such vehicles in volume. The UN now run Dual Cabs, US Military build specific purpose made vehicles...

The Defender is a classic machine and served the brand well, but like it or not... Its not a profit making market sector...

If one can bring a level of refinement and capability to the market people will buy it... Face it, if LR (the brand) didnt exist you would buy another brand - you would have no choice... And it would likely do everything you asked of it.

I've seen people in pretty standard alternate brands go exactly where a modified Defender did... And their feet were still dry after the water crossing, their upholstery not full of dust, nor were they sweating from lack of cool air.

World safety organisations, enviromental departments and even "safety savy" buyers now demand a vehicle which complies with lower emissions, and is safer in the event of an incident. These people outnumber the rest of you substantially....

The Defender is moving on, its time some of you look to do likewise....

[goingbush]

<snip> These people outnumber the rest of you substantially....

The Defender is moving on, its time some of you look to do likewise....

Absolute Bollocks

There are more people in India, Africa, China that dont give a toss about creature comforts.

The problem with western civilisation is the absolute crap that goes along with it, to use a cliche, Keeping up with the Jonses. The bull**** that clever marketing makes you think you need.

My $2000 leaf sprung diff locked series 2 went everywhere I ever needed to go , you don't need a $90,000 Disco 4 or $80,000 Pretender either, or a HiLux.

and for the record my utilitarian Defender does not let any dust in, and is bloody comfortable too.

The indians still make Motorcycles and Morris Oxfords just as they were in the 1950's . on a good thing stick to it.

And if you showed one of those poofy pens or shovels at a mine site you'd be the laughing stock.

[Tombie]

Those shovels are at a mine site or 3 :)


Those Indians and Chinese have very different views on things...

The gaps are closing though - especially in China...

Profits don't come from that stuff...
They come from Capitalism :D
Hence the massive growth of High End vehicles in China and the appalling sales of Tatas little POS in India.

[Tombie]

I also have a "poofy" 24 hour Leather chair at my mine site :D

[Dougal]

Well.... Thats an interesting analogy...

And here is a new style pen

Improved ergonomics
Soft touch
writes smoother
no ink blotches
reduces writers cramp
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61470&stc=1&d=1370574342

And heres an Ergonomic Shovel :angel:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61472&stc=1&d=1370574713

I'd like to hear from anyone who has used pens and shovels which resemble the above pictures.
My own observations put the rare defenders (and even series) as far more common items than the above.

I am all for progress, but those are just plain silly.

[Davo]

I've never used those pens or shovels and have never seen them for sale. The point you're missing is that while they may - or may not - by more user-friendly, they may also be harder to make, or to store, or to transport, or whatever else. The original design is still the most popular by far because it's well-proven, as are rectangular doors, elasticised socks, T-shirts, coffee mugs, and even clocks with hands on them. There are many alternatives, but none of them are functionally better than the standard. And that is the key: form following function, function meaning the whole working life of a thing and not just the single intended purpose. There's no reason Land Rover can't produce a workhorse Defender, (or a replacement), as well as the lastest fancy-pants Range Rover. The market is there - the company has not tackled it.

And if you want to have an interesting discussion, leave the personal stuff out about how some of us need to move on or whatever. That's our business.

[PAT303]

Land Rover are making a modern Defender that complies to modern standards for vehicles,they are not making a hair dressers car.Time to move on everyone,the good old days weren't good,they are just old. Pat

[ramblingboy42]

Its interesting to think that the Land Rover is older than myself and in that time I grew up in the bush. As time goes on so do concepts. The drover never thought about coming home to a warm bed every night but they do now....they drive. If you'd given the option of coming home to his family, due to technology, he would have jumped at it. You could not beat the form and function of a horse....you still can't but on nearly every agricultural property, the horse has been replaced. And as better form and function is introduced to the vehicles that have replaced the horse , so shall those original horse replacements be superceded by safer, more comfortable, more reliable and more capable vehicles.....its what everyone wants.

[Tombie]

Again you guys just don't get it....

There's no profit in them.... And there's a multitude of alternatives already.

The Defender is the most expensive vehicle to build. It's utilitarian design provides **** all ROPS, little occupant protection, already contains enough electronics that it doesn't matter.

And aside from payload is less capable off road than newer offerings.

It's cargo capacity (110 wagon) is unique due to door design. The wheels offset to the driver etc etc. none of which suits the 21st century.

I love them. I would have one right now as a play toy.

But they do nothing that a better built, far more comfortable, quieter vehicle can do.

Like Harley Davidsons, which have been churning out the same old image for decades; the Defender sells more on image than capability. Even HD realise they can't comply their motorcycles in the future without change (hence V-Rod).

The new whatever they get will be no doubt a capable vehicle.

As for the shovels, pens etc....
Ergonomic chairs exist because their form serves a purpose.
Ergonomic pens help people write easier without injury
Those shovels work. I've used one for hours without getting a sore back - the std ones work, but they make your back ache.

Plain foam lined seats and fans worked in SME. Now you won't get an operator in a digger, loader, dumpy if its not suspension seated, climate controlled, power steered...

Even Dump trucks had to evolve.

[vnx205]

It's all very well for those of you who regularly buy a brand new vehicle from the showroom floor to be perfectly happy for the Defender to move upmarket and up the price range.

There are people who never have and probably never will buy a new car. They are probably affected more by such a move by Land Rover and other manufacturers.

There was a time when a quite reliable second hand vehicle could be bought for today's equivalent of a couple of thousand dollars. If it broke down, it could be fixed by anyone with a modicum of mechanical knowledge and a few few simple tools. Even if you had to resort to getting a mechanic to work on it, there were not very many things to go wrong and keeping the vehicle on the road was quite cheap.

On modern vehicles there are many more things to go wrong, fewer things that can be diagnosed without specialist equipment and the cost of even quite simple repairs or even regular services can cost an arm and a leg.

When a Series Land Rover failed to proceed, there were only a couple of things that might have caused the problem. When a modern Discovery grinds to a halt or goes into limp mode, if I can believe what I have read on this forum, it is likely to need some sort of computerised diagnostic device to even work out what the problem is.

As cars become more sophisticated, it isn't the new car buyers who will suffer. They will probably trade it in as soon as the warranty runs out. It is the second hand car buyers who will suffer because of the complexity of the vehicle, the extra things that can and do go wrong and the cost of keeping the vehicle roadworthy.

The huge number of Defender owners who buy second hand want something that is made from materials that will last, not some sort of plastic that will turn to powder in the Australian sun. They want rugged simplicity so that there is at least some of the maintenance that they can do themselves.

If the Defender looks anything like some of the concept vehicles that have appeared in recent years, the new car buyers will still manage quite well, but in a few years second hand buyers will have a real problem.

[manic]

Again you guys just don't get it....



And here we are pretty sure that you don't get it.

For me this is not about the good old days. And besides the current defender is still here, its still selling, it's not hit relic status just yet. The current defender has come along from the series 1 and it could continue to progress with a new model.

If land rover do not want to build a utility 4x4 any more then they should shelve the defender. I have no doubt that a utility 4x4 worthy of succeeding the current defender can be done to modern standards. But will they do it or will they sell out all its values on some luxury DC100 type crap?

That is the point.

Yes market economics, supply and demand, current defender does not meet today's expectations.... but we are talking about a new defender. No one here is saying make it exactly the same, or don't make one.

So Land Rover if you are listening please don't make some generic 4x4 family ferry for people like Tombie! :p They have enough of those to choose from already.

[Pinelli]

It's all very well for those of you who regularly buy a brand new vehicle from the showroom floor to be perfectly happy for the Defender to move upmarket and up the price range.

There are people who never have and probably never will buy a new car. They are probably affected more by such a move by Land Rover and other manufacturers.

There was a time when a quite reliable second hand vehicle could be bought for today's equivalent of a couple of thousand dollars. If it broke down, it could be fixed by anyone with a modicum of mechanical knowledge and a few few simple tools. Even if you had to resort to getting a mechanic to work on it, there were not very many things to go wrong and keeping the vehicle on the road was quite cheap.

On modern vehicles there are many more things to go wrong, fewer things that can be diagnosed without specialist equipment and the cost of even quite simple repairs or even regular services can cost an arm and a leg.

When a Series Land Rover failed to proceed, there were only a couple of things that might have caused the problem. When a modern Discovery grinds to a halt or goes into limp mode, if I can believe what I have read on this forum, it is likely to need some sort of computerised diagnostic device to even work out what the problem is.

As cars become more sophisticated, it isn't the new car buyers who will suffer. They will probably trade it in as soon as the warranty runs out. It is the second hand car buyers who will suffer because of the complexity of the vehicle, the extra things that can and do go wrong and the cost of keeping the vehicle roadworthy.

The huge number of Defender owners who buy second hand want something that is made from materials that will last, not some sort of plastic that will turn to powder in the Australian sun. They want rugged simplicity so that there is at least some of the maintenance that they can do themselves.

If the Defender looks anything like some of the concept vehicles that have appeared in recent years, the new car buyers will still manage quite well, but in a few years second hand buyers will have a real problem.

Not sure about that. I'm one of those buyers that always buys second hand, cheap, and maintains the car myself. Wen I moved from my 86 Navara to a 2000 TD5 Disco 2.5yrs ago, I was convinced that my time of home mechaniking was over. Anyway, now the proud owner of a Nanocom, I think the only work that I've had anyone else do for me is fitting 4 new tyres, and servicing the alternator (which I removed myself). And I'm 'just a maths teacher' (as I've been told) :)

[bob10]

Don't panic, they don't like the cold steel up 'em! Take a bex & calm down, real Land Rover drivers will still be able to have their fix.

Defender to be built in Sri Lanka
From Land Rover Monthly, June 2013;

" Although the veteran Defenders days are numbered in the UK, it is about to get a new lease of life in Sri Lanka, where a local company has announced plans to build a plant to assemble the vehicles

They will be built by SML Frontier Automotive, a subsidiary of Sathosa Motors. Sri Lanka's Daily news reported that production is expected to commence late this year. The company will be investing US $1 million to build the plant on land near Hambantota Port, into which the completely knocked- down [ CKD] parts would arrive from the UK. Sansosa Motors, the Parent firm, already has the agency for Japan's Isuzu brand.

Although the current Defender is due to be phased out in 2015 in Europe & North America to meet stringent emissions & safety laws, the new move raises the question of whether the 30 year old workhorse will continue being produced in the third World for years to come. "

[goingbush]

vnx205 Amen to that

I have never, will never, buy a new car.

but I do know the new car feeling, as I used to have them for work, the feeling lasts a month or so and then it was just another POS

The feeling I get when I drive my Defender is the same each time never wears off, the smile never goes away.


Thanks Tombie, I dislike Harleys but the penny just dropped, Now I get why Harley riders love their bikes, exactly same as we love our Defenders.

If your a Harley Rider , why don't you just move with the times (and get a Vstrom ), yah right

[isuzurover]

Not sure about that. I'm one of those buyers that always buys second hand, cheap, and maintains the car myself. Wen I moved from my 86 Navara to a 2000 TD5 Disco 2.5yrs ago, I was convinced that my time of home mechaniking was over. Anyway, now the proud owner of a Nanocom, I think the only work that I've had anyone else do for me is fitting 4 new tyres, and servicing the alternator (which I removed myself). And I'm 'just a maths teacher' (as I've been told) :)

Try buying a D3 or D4 and doing the same though... As well as the equivalent of a nanocom you will also need a hoist to lift the body off the chassis for most major jobs (and some minor).

IMHO I consider the D3 and D4 fat, ugly, heavy, expensive and full of a bunch of stuff that I don't want or need.

The RRS is slightly better but even more expensive.

I want to see one of these D3/D4/RRS that is supposed to be better offroad than a defender. All those I have seen have great suspension and traction control, but are let down in many, many other ways. For starters they wouldn't fit down many of the tracks my 110 has been down. They may be a more comfortable touring vehicle than a defender, and better to access the interior, but they are inferior in so many ways.

Many of the issues that vnx205 talks about are due to emissions requirements, however the G-Wagen professional is a much more serviceable vehicle than the D3/D4/RRS.

However I think it is inevitable that the defender will either disappear, or end up as a cheap disco with a different body, fewer features and less capability.

It would be nice if Landrover brought out a next generation defender that was a like a sensibly priced version of the G-Professional, but I cannot see that happening.

[bob10]

As for the shovels, pens etc....
Ergonomic chairs exist because their form serves a purpose.
Ergonomic pens help people write easier without injury
Those shovels work. I've used one for hours without getting a sore back - the std ones work, but they make your back ache.

Plain foam lined seats and fans worked in SME. Now you won't get an operator in a digger, loader, dumpy if its not suspension seated, climate controlled, power steered...

Even Dump trucks had to evolve.

Interesting observation, you younger generation are soft little petals, aren't you. Thank goodness the people who pioneered this country were made of sterner stuff. Bob

[goingbush]

Don't panic, they don't like the cold steel up 'em! Take a bex & calm down, real Land Rover drivers will still be able to have their fix.

Defender to be built in Sri Lanka
From Land Rover Monthly, June 2013;

" Although the veteran Defenders days are numbered in the UK, it is about to get a new lease of life in Sri Lanka, where a local company has announced plans to build a plant to assemble the vehicles

They will be built by SML Frontier Automotive, a subsidiary of Sathosa Motors. Sri Lanka's Daily news reported that production is expected to commence late this year. The company will be investing US $1 million to build the plant on land near Hambantota Port, into which the completely knocked- down [ CKD] parts would arrive from the UK. Sansosa Motors, the Parent firm, already has the agency for Japan's Isuzu brand.

Although the current Defender is due to be phased out in 2015 in Europe & North America to meet stringent emissions & safety laws, the new move raises the question of whether the 30 year old workhorse will continue being produced in the third World for years to come. "

Meybe a Isuzu engine Defender for 2016 !
All good, but Bob, if they are for the 3rd world will they comply with Australian standards. ??

Edit,

was just wondering what 1st & 2nd world countries are & found the answer
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1180.jpg
1st world countries are Market Economies, Blue
2nd World, former soviet bloc / communist / planned economy , Red
3rd World , undeveloped / developing countries, Green

[PAT303]

Meybe a Isuzu engine Defender for 2016 !
All good, but Bob, if they are for the 3rd world will they comply with Australian standards. ??

Hell no,Isuzu build the biggest POS on the road,they fall apart as you drive them,they are a modern 70's Alfa.

[isuzurover]

...
I have never, will never, buy a new car.
...


Neither have I, and I don't ever plan to [at this stage]. So why should Landrover care what we think or try and make a vehicle that we would want to buy second hand???


(I did buy a new boat though... so who knows one day...)

[PAT303]

It's all very well for those of you who regularly buy a brand new vehicle from the showroom floor to be perfectly happy for the Defender to move upmarket and up the price range.

There are people who never have and probably never will buy a new car. They are probably affected more by such a move by Land Rover and other manufacturers.

There was a time when a quite reliable second hand vehicle could be bought for today's equivalent of a couple of thousand dollars. If it broke down, it could be fixed by anyone with a modicum of mechanical knowledge and a few few simple tools. Even if you had to resort to getting a mechanic to work on it, there were not very many things to go wrong and keeping the vehicle on the road was quite cheap.

On modern vehicles there are many more things to go wrong, fewer things that can be diagnosed without specialist equipment and the cost of even quite simple repairs or even regular services can cost an arm and a leg.

When a Series Land Rover failed to proceed, there were only a couple of things that might have caused the problem. When a modern Discovery grinds to a halt or goes into limp mode, if I can believe what I have read on this forum, it is likely to need some sort of computerised diagnostic device to even work out what the problem is.

As cars become more sophisticated, it isn't the new car buyers who will suffer. They will probably trade it in as soon as the warranty runs out. It is the second hand car buyers who will suffer because of the complexity of the vehicle, the extra things that can and do go wrong and the cost of keeping the vehicle roadworthy.

The huge number of Defender owners who buy second hand want something that is made from materials that will last, not some sort of plastic that will turn to powder in the Australian sun. They want rugged simplicity so that there is at least some of the maintenance that they can do themselves.

If the Defender looks anything like some of the concept vehicles that have appeared in recent years, the new car buyers will still manage quite well, but in a few years second hand buyers will have a real problem.

I get reminded of this all the time yet I'll bet a months pay both my scary modern vehicles did and still do more K's in remote outback Oz than all the Isuzu LR's do combined and my L322 would have to have been the easiest vehicle I've ever worked on. Pat

[PAT303]

vnx205 Amen to that

I have never, will never, buy a new car.

but I do know the new car feeling, as I used to have them for work, the feeling lasts a month or so and then it was just another POS

The feeling I get when I drive my Defender is the same each time never wears off, the smile never goes away.


Thanks Tombie, I dislike Harleys but the penny just dropped, Now I get why Harley riders love their bikes, exactly same as we love our Defenders.

If your a Harley Rider , why don't you just move with the times (and get a Vstrom ), yah right

As far as the new defender goes thats my only worry,I drive hilux's,LC's etc at work and for me they are a car,I drove my TDCi home from perth after my last swing and it put a smile on my dial. Pat

[vnx205]

I get reminded of this all the time yet I'll bet a months pay both my scary modern vehicles did and still do more K's in remote outback Oz than all the Isuzu LR's do combined and my L322 would have to have been the easiest vehicle I've ever worked on. Pat

Wasn't the L322 introduced over a decade ago? The pace at which technology changes these days means that is hardly a modern vehicle. :)

I was really more concerned about the vehicles that will be produced in the next decade rather than the ones from the last decade.

[PAT303]

Wasn't the L322 introduced over a decade ago? The pace at which technology changes these days means that is hardly a modern vehicle. :)

I was really more concerned about the vehicles that will be produced in the next decade rather than the ones from the last decade.

It was and still is a very modern vehicle,four ECU's,air suspension,common rail injection,electronic gearbox control etc. Pat

[Davo]

Well now, I was thinking about all this when I went out to the well to get some water. There I was, pumping the handle and filling the wooden bucket, and then walking back to the house in the shoes I made just the other day, only stopping to adjust my suspenders and relight my corn-cob pipe. (I know I shouldn’t smoke, but it helps me to relax after milking the cows.)

Anyway, the sheep had missed cropping a bit of the back lawn so I had to move them and that’s when I found the lamb stuck in the fence, (you know how when you weave a fence out of wattle sometimes you make the gaps too big), and by then I had to rush inside and light the kerosene lamp before it got too dark because it can really hurt if you’re stumbling around in your kitchen at night and hit the woodstove.

So I got the lamp lit with a burning twig because we don’t believe in them matches round here and that’s when I found the chamber pot that I’d brought down in the morning and forgotten to empty!

Oh, and I like Defenders, too. :p

[bob10]

Meybe a Isuzu engine Defender for 2016 !
All good, but Bob, if they are for the 3rd world will they comply with Australian standards. ??

Edit,

was just wondering what 1st & 2nd world countries are & found the answer
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1180.jpg
1st world countries are Market Economies, Blue
2nd World, former soviet bloc / communist / planned economy , Red
3rd World , undeveloped / developing countries, Green

Mate, they are the same defenders being exported to Aus. now, so until the legislation is changed here, you have your answer. Bob

[Disco Muppet]

Interesting observation, you younger generation are soft little petals, aren't you. Thank goodness the people who pioneered this country were made of sterner stuff. Bob

ffs Bob, enough with this crap, I agree with you on most things but not this.
From the little I know about Mike (Tombie), he's not the sort of bloke anyone would call a "soft little petal", at least not twice :p
Silly name calling does nothing but make you come across as a grumpy old bugger who mutters about "their day" and how much simpler it was. Which I'm sure is not the case, nothing against you mate.
Sure, it was harder doing things "the old way". Does that automatically make them better? Does that mean we shouldn't try and make things easier?
People (most of us anyway) move with the times, Do you see many people still using betamax or 8 tracks?
If anything wants to survive, it has to be able to adapt. Like it or not, that includes Defenders. If Land Rover wants to survive in the modern car market, then that requires something a bit more modern.
And how about we hold off judging how good or otherwise it will be until it's actually released and we can get behind the wheel of it. Until then, it's all just he said she said.

[Tombie]

Interesting observation, you younger generation are soft little petals, aren't you. Thank goodness the people who pioneered this country were made of sterner stuff. Bob

You mean as in do the same amount of work, but in 20 years will still have a working back? :D

Only people I know as grumpy as this are old Stokers....

[Tombie]

Thanks Tombie, I dislike Harleys but the penny just dropped, Now I get why Harley riders love their bikes, exactly same as we love our Defenders.

If your a Harley Rider , why don't you just move with the times (and get a Vstrom ), yah right

Well guess what!

Air cooled V-twins are being phased out by emissions regs... Hence the toe in the water V-Rod... Considered by many traditionalists as "not a real HD" - Sound familiar?!!!

Me, I wanted power, reliability and value.
A Japanese bike provided all that and more...
In fact we got 2 :)

HD riders have them because of image.
The HD image is a modern success story in marketing. They are brilliant, selling the entire package which is all S&G and no real substance.

The Defender was about no frills... Not image. Then it got A/C, leather, CD, MP3... Now it's image that sells ;)

[Tombie]

Random thought #1
A spanner is a tool
A timing light is a tool (and often electronic)
A code reader/diagnostic unit is a tool

Not a lot in it really!

Random thought #2
And those yarping on about "crumbly plastic" the Disco plastic is going fine 13 yrs on.

Yet younger Defenders are suffering bulkhead corrosion, capping rusting, rusty cross members etc.

Composites are here to stay, they are often very resilient and corrosion resistant/proof.

Random thought #3
Someone buys a Defender (even one of those Puma things) and all the Defender drivers go "good on ya".

They shove a lift, bar work, lockers, and other bits and ****s on them spending anything up to $70k on their toy.

No one slays them for it, even though they have weaker diffs, and same axles they've had for 20 yrs.

Yet when someone spends the same on a D4 and adds a bar up front (locker etc are avail for that price) and LLAMS they're ridiculed?

Well I say... **** you!

I work bloody hard to have my shiny new Luxo toy. It spends more time doing real work than many Defenders ever will and has never had anything but servicing done.

I have the diagnostic tool (I'm lucky I have more than one vehicle to use it on - A TD5 D2, A D3 (Dads) and the D4.)
It's just that - a tool - it's in a box with the other basic hand tools I carry when travelling.

I also have a transmission jack and a hoist on the way - because it makes my life easier... I got the jack because I can't drop a TC and Auto easily on my own without it!

I can tune and work on a TD5/Bosch V8 as easy as I could my old 351 Ford (although it was easier to reach stuff at times) it was just a matter of wanting to learn.

Justin Cooper can handle a D4 and not have a nervous break down....

Most people I know wouldn't / couldn't fix a SIII if they wanted too...
Plenty of money is made recovering vehicles with "easy fix" faults...

[manic]

The Defender was about no frills... Not image. Then it got A/C, leather, CD, MP3... Now it's image that sells ;)

lol.. men will be wearing makeup next and you'll tell us to move with the times. I don't doubt it will happen, those marketing folk tap into new markets by tapping into your mind.

"Dude you are looking messed up today, here try my bulldog face protector - its a manly foundation that will keep you looking good and protect your skin from harmful exhaust smoke and EV radiation using the latest in molecular protophaser technology... you will die without it"

sold yet?

[Tombie]

No... But I do wear sun protection.

Nowhere near as much as I should and I'm far more complacent with my own "Sun Smarts" than I was with my kids...

And I'm far better off than my Skin Cancer and melanoma riddled/scarred older mates with bits burnt and hacked off everywhere.

[manic]

No... But I do wear sun protection.

Nowhere near as much as I should and I'm far more complacent with my own "Sun Smarts" than I was with my kids...

And I'm far better off than my Skin Cancer and melanoma riddled/scarred older mates with bits burnt and hacked off everywhere.

good to hear Tombie.. slip slap slop :D ... you're an up to date guy so I bet your sunscreen is free of zinc oxide too.

[Tombie]

Land Rover. (Let's not split hairs)
SI, SII, SIII, County, Defender.

Same basic design/shape from day dot.

The occupant area of a Defender is like the "Anti-Tardis"; looks huge outside but deceptively small inside. (This does not reflect comfort in my example - I found my Defender comfy to drive)


The new version will like its competitors need to have:

DSC - it's mandatory in many markets now; including Victoria.
ABS
SRS
Crumple zones
To tap commercial market needs to be ANCAP 5
More leg room
More shoulder room
Back seats that aren't designed for an anorexic dwarf
Emissions complaint engine - this means electronic controls
Power! Market want it...
Security - also mandated now
Pedestrian compliant frontal area

There is no way the current version can be adapted to meet this!

[Tombie]

And this pertains to the topic at hand how?
But yes, I even have the MSDS if you like.

[manic]

There is no way the current version can be adapted to meet this!

No but it is possible for a new one to meet those requirements and still honor the previous models. Mercedes seem to be able to manage it with their G-Class.

[Tombie]

No but it is possible for a new one to meet those requirements and still honor the previous models. Mercedes seem to be able to manage it with their G-Class.

For $170k :) full of electronics.
Better body shape to work with from the get go. Not modular.

Honour the past? Like the successful FJ Cruiser :lol:

[manic]

For $170k :) full of electronics.
Better body shape to work with from the get go. Not modular.

Honour the past? Like the successful FJ Cruiser :lol:

Forget the g-wagen price.. there are variants... the body shape is similar... its still made for military... still as a utility spec... it has been changed over the years... it does not appear to be going anywhere in 2015... it holds some integrity.

The FJ Cruiser is the example of how it could go wrong.

I want the new defender to be advanced. It should have electronics but it would be nice to see integrated diagnostic tools, self diagnostics and on board repair guides, fall back systems, intelligent limp modes that allow you to void your warranty to proceed at all costs. E-diffs front and back. Waterproofed electronics, practically submersible, hose out interior --> New age tough!

[goingbush]

whats the world coming to

plenty of "Taboo's" I'd indulge in before makeup
hell I wont even wear sunscreen, you'll never see me in a D3/4 , but paradoxically I would buy a FJ Cruiser if you could get a Diesel / Manual.

Makeup for Men is On The Rise (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/14/makeup-for-men-is-on-the-rise-and-no-longer-a-taboo.html)

[Tombie]

Yeah...
I'm into Old Spice and Brut 33...
None of this here modern Poof stuff.
I shower with cold water and shave with my hunting knife...
Throw on the flanny shirt and then a big old dash of the spice.
Chicks down the bingo parlour just go crazy for that ****!

;)

[steane]

Progress is a good thing and there is no doubt that many modern vehicles are better in a multitude of ways when compared to a defender. New vehicles are safer, easy to drive, mostly comfortable and perform their intended function efficiently.

But modern efficiency doesn't excite me.

I sold a modern 4wd to buy my 300tdi defender. Not because I think it is more capable but because I wanted to drive again. I get to drive most of the new vehicles on the market, incl the D4 and I can tell you the modern vehicle is pretty impressive on lots of levels but they are also amazingly bland to operate and own.

You don't drive them anymore and there is no adventure left behind the wheel. In lots of ways they are all the same and feel the same. This is something that a collegue also struggles with and he also prefers an older vehicle for his daily drive.

I've been on the new car treadmill as well. Buy one, think its the best thing for a year or three and then trade on the next best thing to come along. In reality I was bored and missing a car that needed to be driven.

The defender is the only vehicle I've owned for many years that is a real driving experience. Yes it's underpowered, yes its noisy, yes it's slow but it needs me to drive it, it's involving and every drive puts a smile on my face. And honestly, I just love the way it looks and feels. No other 4wd is as character laden as the defender.

I dont care what LR do with the next Defender. If there Is a new one, it will be modern and competant, that's just the modern reality. I might even buy one for my wife and trade it a few years later as you do. It will be the keys to the 19 year old defender that will hold the most appeal.

[Tombie]

An honest and emotive response.

I think you sum it up nicely.

I always enjoyed the Defender, I really love the D4 - often putting 8-10 hours a day in the hot seat.. Not unknown to do round trips to collect something then head straight home...

For my "fix" it's 2 wheels - that's the head clearer.

For long term calm and state of Mind, a trip in either of my LR is the key!!!!

[steane]

I always enjoyed the Defender, I really love the D4 - often putting 8-10 hours a day in the hot seat.. Not unknown to do round trips to collect something then head straight home...


I completely understand that. I had a D4 for a week and it's a hell of a machine. If you do a lot of driving on a daily basis there isn't much out there that can compete with it when it comes to eating up the miles. The Defender is so far removed from what the D4 is that's it not even a sensible comparison in that regard.

Thankfully, I don't have to drive much on a daily basis nor very far when I do, so the Defender is like a little escape every time I get behind the wheel.

Having said that most of my kms in the Defender have been big trips, and that has also been very enjoyable.

Horses for courses and none of it really matters as long as we love the Landy we are with.:D

[Davo]

Wow, talk about missing the point. It always amuses me how these discussions are steered off into some bizarre made-up idea that somehow we backward people want the Defender to have wooden-spoked wheels and rivets on the steering wheel.

No, the point is that while a spanner and a scanner are both tools, it's the spanner that costs less and is more dependable. The scanner can do a hell of a lot, but you can't drop it in water or drive over it or expect it to work perfectly in twenty years. And so whatever workhorse the black skivvy-wearing urbanites at Land Rover come up with, it will have to be something that is modern and capable but still able to work.

The Disco comparison always misses the point as well because how the car drives is only a part of it. Can you bolt things on? Can you wire in a radio without the computer going nuts? If it's stuck in a river for a week, is it a write-off or can it be rebuilt? Is replacing wheel bearings simple and cheap or expensive and requiring special tools? If not, it's no good for that market, and as usual something else that is will come along and make the money.

[Tombie]

Bolt things on? Yes lots!
Fit a radio? Yes
Dunk in water? Yes
Rebuild? Yes - anything can be rebuilt

Drop a Diag tool in water? WTF!!!??
Why would I? I wouldn't do that with my car key, phone, wallet etc so I see no relevance in your point here?

There's a heap of things on any vehicle that will result in most people getting a recovery - not bush mechanic fixes.

A stripped down vehicle is no different to a modern one in this regard.

It's statistically common that its the mechanicals which stop a vehicle not the electronics in almost all occasions.


It's actually all of you that want an old type vehicle in a modern age who are missing the point.

Like a Ford Model T vs FPV G6T.... Hmmm! Very different yet no issues.

Did the Holden Monaro vs the Monaro of yesteryear ruin an icon? Nope. But blow hards complained - yet it sold well and is a collectors item now.

If you want old school buy old ( and rebuild it :D )
If you want an icon.. Look at your desktop.

And Davo... It's Fitzroy crossing mate; Not Mars ;) .. Plenty of Discoveries and New fangled Electronic vehicles running around up there without issue.

Plenty of stuffed Land Cruisers too!


Either way... Whatever LR decide to do post Defender will likely be a brilliant vehicle.

[Davo]

Bolt things on? Yes lots!
Fit a radio? Yes
Dunk in water? Yes
Rebuild? Yes - anything can be rebuilt

Drop a Diag tool in water? WTF!!!??
Why would I? I wouldn't do that with my car key, phone, wallet etc so I see no relevance in your point here?

There's a heap of things on any vehicle that will result in most people getting a recovery - not bush mechanic fixes.

A stripped down vehicle is no different to a modern one in this regard.

It's statistically common that its the mechanicals which stop a vehicle not the electronics in almost all occasions.


It's actually all of you that want an old type vehicle in a modern age who are missing the point.

Like a Ford Model T vs FPV G6T.... Hmmm! Very different yet no issues.

Did the Holden Monaro vs the Monaro of yesteryear ruin an icon? Nope. But blow hards complained - yet it sold well and is a collectors item now.

If you want old school buy old ( and rebuild it :D )
If you want an icon.. Look at your desktop.

And Davo... It's Fitzroy crossing mate; Not Mars ;) .. Plenty of Discoveries and New fangled Electronic vehicles running around up there without issue.

Plenty of stuffed Land Cruisers too!


Either way... Whatever LR decide to do post Defender will likely be a brilliant vehicle.

Ha ha, that is funny. Obviously you wouldn't drop it in water on purpose, but accidents do happen, and when it's with your phone, or key fob, or an important tool in the middle of nowhere, you'll know about it. I believe there's a neat story in a VKS-737 newsletter where that happened. (Another VKS story concerned a member in a new car where, when they pressed to transmit, the engine would stop.)

Actually, I could tell you a heap of stories about living here with a modern vehicle. I think that's what you guys are missing, the experience of living with something complicated in a place like this instead of just passing through. So, once again, it's not just about how well the thing goes but how much effort it takes to keep it in shape as well.

There was the V8 LandCruiser that just stopped out on a station so remote I hadn't even heard of it. It just stopped and sat way out somewhere until they had enough other work for a local mechanic to go out and make the trip worthwhile. Naturally, it was something electronic and so he couldn't fix it. Being station people, they were able to put it on their truck and take it to the nearest dealer, in Broome. Another V8 had a blown alternator from driving through deep water, (apparently it's down low), and I remember that mechanic being amazed at how much of the car had to be removed to get to it.

We have friends who lost the one key to their Nissan . . . it had to be shipped to Broome. ("We don't want to talk about it," they said. It was one of those married moments.)

Then my work Mahindra was off the road for a very long time - and I was out of an income - because it was stolen, recovered with no key, and the local mechanic had to eventually replace the whole lock and code the key over the phone, which was relief since at one point they thought it would have to be shipped to the local dealer, 2800km away, in Bunbury. (And no, the make of car hadn't been my choice.)

And a boss's Holden that had constant starting problems . . . he towed it to Broome.

And another work car I had where the engine light came on, sometimes 100km away from home, at sunset. Ooh, that's fun.

So when you have to tack on at least several hundred dollars to a repair for shipping, it makes you wonder if things could have been designed better.

Meanwhile, there are a heap of pre-electronic LandCruisers that keep tottering down the road. Sure, anything can be rebuilt but with these things it's faster and cheaper - that's the point.

I really don't know why you keep dredging up this idea of:
"It's actually all of you that want an old type vehicle in a modern age who are missing the point." Hee, that's funny, too. No-one said that. I just want something that is still simple and affordable to repair, and with the necessary electronics being easy to deal with. Land Rover could do that if, you know, they actually tried for a change.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

On a related note - this landed in my inbox today which indicates there still does not seem to be an "official" version of the stop date for current series Defender builds.

On the other hand, "still be available until an announcement is made" sounds eerily like once an announcement is made, no more orders will be accepted...


Dear Mr xxxxxx,

Our Ref: xxxxxx

Thank you for your email.

It is true that we will discontinue manufacture of the current Land Rover Defender in the future.

At this stage we have no date for the introduction of the new model, so the current Defender will still be available until an announcement is made.

Thank you for your enquiry.


Kind regards,
xxx xxxx
Land Rover Australia
Tel: 1800 xxx xxx

Email: enquiries@landrovercustomers.com.au

[manic]

It's actually all of you that want an old type vehicle in a modern age who are missing the point.



I think we must all be missing a point here and there. In your case you seem to be arguing vehemently that modern is better than old whilst myself and others on here are more on the side of simple is better than complicated.

We are talking about a replacement that when released will be modern by default. Even if it doesn't have an I-Pod dock or on board entertainment system. Even if you can hose out the interior and not fry a circuit board.

I still believe Land Rover can pull off a worthy replacement so long as they make an effort to stick to its well established principle of simple is capable.

One way they could apply this to a new defender model is with a water/bomb proof central ECU that monitors all the cars vitals, traction and safety devices and also provides a dash interface for diagnostics and brake down resolution. The on board computer empowers and informs the driver whenever there is a problem.

***Sensor fail***
[show graphic]
[show replacement procedure]
[ignore failure and proceed at reduced power]
[proceed in emergency only - voids warranty - risk of engine damage]

***Sorry I am not starting because something is not quite right, here is what we can do to keep going***

If they can adapt modern technology used on road biased cars to fit the go anywhere principles that made the defender an icon, it could easily be the best 4x4xFar. If they scrap those principles and create a luxury POS entertainment room on wheels with an arrogant ECU that uses road car logic and thinks it knows better - well I wont be impressed.

[vnx205]

Whatever is offered as a replacement for the current Defender, a lot of the features will be there to meet safety requirements and a lot will be there to meet emissions standards or some other regulations. Those changes are obviously not negotiable.

The changes I would not like to see are the frivolous ones that are merely dictated by fashion. For example if the stylish outside shape impacted on the usable interior space, I would consider that a retrograde step.

Most boxes, containers and fridges are basically rectangular. You can fit more of them into a rectangular interior than into a curved one with protruding bumps.

I also see no need for things like electric windows, electric seat adjustment, auto sensing windscreen wipers. If you can't wind up your windows and adjust your seat manually and you can't tell if it is raining, then perhaps you shouldn't be driving.

I can see the sense of changes that make a vehicle safer or more efficient, even in a Defender. I can't see the need for replacing a simple, reliable, effective manual operation with a push button version.

[manic]

I also see no need for things like electric windows, electric seat adjustment, auto sensing windscreen wipers. If you can't wind up your windows and adjust your seat manually and you can't tell if it is raining, then perhaps you shouldn't be driving.


x2!

[Davie]

Did you watch the movie The Gods must be Crazy, did you see how that guy fixed his Landy, well that's how we should be able to work on a go-anywhere vehicle, don't you think.

[goingbush]

Did you watch the movie The Gods must be Crazy, did you see how that guy fixed his Landy, well that's how we should be able to work on a go-anywhere vehicle, don't you think.

hmm, this scene comes to mind :wasntme:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/957.jpg

[Tombie]

Nice photoshop...

[vnx205]

hmm, this scene comes to mind :wasntme:



Nice photoshop...

I thought it was a still from "The Gods Must Be Crazy III" or "The Gods Must Be Crazy IV" .
:D:D:D

[rangietragic]

An honest and emotive response.

I think you sum it up nicely.

I always enjoyed the Defender, I really love the D4 - often putting 8-10 hours a day in the hot seat.. Not unknown to do round trips to collect something then head straight home...

For my "fix" it's 2 wheels - that's the head clearer.

For long term calm and state of Mind, a trip in either of my LR is the key!!!!
I agree,as someone who has had seven(i think) range rovers and a disco2 i still love driving my 130 dc.My l322 is beautiful to drive,best ive ever owned,but there is just something about driving the deefer that i cant explain.To me the jap vehicles are akin to appliances.Do the job well,for the most part well made but i dont get the same feeling when i see the fridge(except on a real hot day and i need a beer) or the microwave as i do when i see my deefer.THAT is what land rover need to keep when designing a new defender.Also it should still look like a defender,regardless of what it ends up having,same as they did with range rover,they still bear a strong family resemblence.

[Tombie]

Just remember -
When I see old muscle cars i smile and feel warm happy feelings.

My 2 boys don't.

They see import turbo things and lose their minds...

[DiscoMick]

Way back in this thread some journo seemed to argue that if LR adopt an aluminium chassis for the next Defender that will be the end of it. What bollocks! LR is investing big in aluminium technology, so if that enables it to keep the price of the Defender down, then that's a good thing.
They can still hang a workhorse vehicle off an aluminium chassis, no problems.
The new one will have to meet the latest emissions and safety regulations to have a world market and sell in sufficient numbers to be viable. That means electronics.
Electronics can be at least as reliable as mechanical systems, if not more so, if they are done right and planned to be easily repaired when they do fail.
I hope LR takes the time to get it right. If its aim really is to unseat the Hilux and similar vehicles, then that's a good thing.

[manic]

They can still hang a workhorse vehicle off an aluminium chassis, no problems.


I'm not against it, light weight aluminum sounds good to me. So long as it can beat the current defender for max towing and payload weight.

But are we talking monocoque/integrated aluminium chassis? Would it really be as strong as a steel ladder chassis? If you break a ladder chassis you can weld repair, but what about monocoque aluminium?

Would it be possible to have a higher payload on a aluminium chassis with independent suspension compared to the same size car on a steel ladder chassis and solid axles?

[steane]

I doubt the next Defender will be a workhorse in any way shape or form. My money is on it being a lifestyle vehicle, Land Rover's version of the Wrangler but modern, if it happens at all.

[Dougal]

Progress is a good thing and there is no doubt that many modern vehicles are better in a multitude of ways when compared to a defender. New vehicles are safer, easy to drive, mostly comfortable and perform their intended function efficiently.

But modern efficiency doesn't excite me.

I sold a modern 4wd to buy my 300tdi defender. Not because I think it is more capable but because I wanted to drive again. I get to drive most of the new vehicles on the market, incl the D4 and I can tell you the modern vehicle is pretty impressive on lots of levels but they are also amazingly bland to operate and own.

You don't drive them anymore and there is no adventure left behind the wheel. In lots of ways they are all the same and feel the same. This is something that a collegue also struggles with and he also prefers an older vehicle for his daily drive.

I've been on the new car treadmill as well. Buy one, think its the best thing for a year or three and then trade on the next best thing to come along. In reality I was bored and missing a car that needed to be driven.

The defender is the only vehicle I've owned for many years that is a real driving experience. Yes it's underpowered, yes its noisy, yes it's slow but it needs me to drive it, it's involving and every drive puts a smile on my face. And honestly, I just love the way it looks and feels. No other 4wd is as character laden as the defender.

I dont care what LR do with the next Defender. If there Is a new one, it will be modern and competant, that's just the modern reality. I might even buy one for my wife and trade it a few years later as you do. It will be the keys to the 19 year old defender that will hold the most appeal.

You realise that the 200/300tdi was "modern efficiency"? It was one of the first direct injection turbo diesels in a useful vehicle.
That was landrover breaking the mould and making bold new steps. They did it again with the TD5.
Toyota and Nissan didn't. Their vehicles in many situations were using ~50% more fuel to do the same job.

I bought a new (to me) car last year, tried to get a brand new one but couldn't get the spec so I got a 3 year old one that was the spec.
It's 4wd, turbo diesel, manual.
Does 1000km on a 60L tank.
Corners like it shouldn't.
Rides very well.
26,000km between oil changes.
Put simply I rate it higher than damn near anything else I've driven.

A family member bought a RRS.
Same deal. Just newer, the fuel tank is bigger and it's automatic.

Honestly if you see cars as boring appliances, you're probably buying the wrong ones.
A toyota camry is an appliance.

I would love to own a defender, the wife would too. but they just don't fit what I need and use vehicles for. The rangerovers actually do. Even the Evoque ticks the list for possible replacement of the next work car.


whats the world coming to

plenty of "Taboo's" I'd indulge in before makeup
hell I wont even wear sunscreen,

Refusing to wear sunscreen (unless you were highly allergic to it) is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. How's that skin cancer treating you?

[spudfan]

Every Summer I head to the bog and take home turf (peat) using the Land Rover and trailer. Everyone else uses a tractor and trailer. The owner of an ISUZU maindealer ship pays to have his brought home by someone in a tractor and trailer. I have known the owner well for many tears. He always had new and used ISUZU 4wd's in the garage. I asked him why he did'nt take one, hitch it to a trailer and take his own turf home. All he did was smile and say that "It's rough down there."Also he never once asked me to test drive one of his vehicles or tried to get me to change.
I've never driven an Isuzu but they are supposed to be fine vehicles.
I knew of a Mitsubishi Pajero sitting up with engine trouble. It sat as the owner said it was too expensive to have repaired.
I know of many Land Rovers that have had various things rebuilt and no one ever said that it was too expensive and not worth doing.
The current basic Defender may lack a lot of stuff like locking diffs or outright power that others have but you pay a lot more for the other vehicles with this as standard.You can have a basic Defender and pay to have other things fitted and still come in cheaper than other vehicles.
When I was buying my first car ever in 1990, it was a 90 turbo diesel, I phoned up a maindealer asked the price of various parts and how much to have them fitted. I did the same with other makes and the Land Rover came in cheapest.
A Defender is cramped and uncomfortable only compared to other cars. As I have never owned any other car and my wife has never driven anything other than a 110 we are happy with the Defender. In it's present Puma form it is a wonderful car for every day use.
Defining basic varies from person to person. To me "basic" did not include remote central locking and in earlier tdi days I scoffed at such things. However our Puma came with remote central locking and my wife found it an asset because we have a child with special needs. My wife could now unlock the vehicle without letting go of our daughter's hand. Might not seem like much but if you have been there you'll appreciate it.Also the second row passenger seats are just the right height for lifting a child into and out of a vehicle - no stooping. Again only appreciated if relevant to you.
The way things are going legislation wise it might not be possible in future to change and adapt a vehicle from factory spec. once you by it. Maybe Land Rover see that coming so are not figuring an easily adaptable platform into their plans.
I like the Defender and it does not bother me that it does not have ABS, side intrusion bars or airbags but it does seem to bother someone in Brussels who probably never drove one. It's a bit odd the Defender will have to comply with pedestrian safety impact laws when other vehicles like vans, trucks and the ambulances up the road don't.
I suppose it will depend where Land Rover see the future market for the Defender that will determine it's final spec. Somehow I don't see a vehicle for the third world cutting it with Land Rover. If they can't get a decent dealer network in Australia how expensive would it be to set up and maintain a good dealer network and spare parts distribution set up in a developing country with a low margin, profit wise, vehicle?
The Defender may not be perfect but if like me you accept it for what it is, it is a wonderful vehicle. Then again I don't live in the back of beyond where a breakdown could be catastrophic.That Pajero I mentioned earlier was not in the back of beyond and it was deemed too expensive to repair.
People seem to expect new cars to have stuff like sat nav fitted as standard - me, I don't even own a mobile phone. How many cars have you seen with those television screen things strapped to headrests for kids to watch? Yes people expect a lot these days - even in basic spec. To develope a true workhorse vehicle on it's own may not be in Land Rover's sights but they may "adapt" a high selling premium selling vehicle for the work type market. This is the complete opposite as to how Land Rover did things in the past. Remember how the "COUNTY" was developed from the basic range. Should they go the route of developing the "replacement" as a big selling, high profit margin premium brand, trying to adapt it to the "utility" market will be a compromise.
Anyway we can but wait and see what transpires and I'll continue to enjoy what I have.

[bob10]

You mean as in do the same amount of work, but in 20 years will still have a working back? :D

Only people I know as grumpy as this are old Stokers....

The only old grumpy stokers I know are ****ed off because the young o/d's just don't get it. The old TIFFIES, however..... Bob

[Tombie]

The only old grumpy stokers I know are ****ed off because the young o/d's just don't get it. The old TIFFIES, however..... Bob

I was a Birdie rate Bob ;)

[bob10]

I was a Birdie rate Bob ;)

Off topic , but did you know Skinhead Kelson? Bob

[Fifth Columnist]

...from the UK Telegraph.

Land Rover: the end of a legend - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/motoring/8654/land-rover-the-end-of-a-legend.html)

[Mocky]

Regardless of what lies in the future,
The only thing that concerns me is will I be told that I can not drive my 30 year old Land Rover because it does not conform to the standards required of today's vehicles.

Mocky.

[Davo]

Wow, what a stupid company. So when you want a workhorse, soon it'll be only a Toyota, or a Nissan, or a Ford, or a blah blah blah whatever. Too bad they never really bothered advertising the things or having more than a handful of dealers here. I bet if this modern Land Rover Ltd were farmers, they'd never water or fertilise the orchard they'd inherited and then wonder why nothing ever grew.

[will d8r]

No it's not landrover not wanting to build them,they want to keep it.It's the stupid government regulations they have to comply with like emissions, 6 air bags in cab, crush zones etc. One of the design engineers assured me it will be a good vehicle. Cheers Will

[goingbush]

No it's not landrover not wanting to build them,they want to keep it.It's the stupid government regulations they have to comply with like emissions, 6 air bags in cab, crush zones etc. One of the design engineers assured me it will be a good vehicle. Cheers Will

you didnt read the announcement, There is not going to be a new Defender

[Tombie]

you didnt read the announcement, There is not going to be a new Defender

And yet LR will survive.... :)

And Tata utes can fill the farm roles :D

[Dougal]

you didnt read the announcement, There is not going to be a new Defender

Which announcement was that? It's hard to keep up.

[goingbush]

from the Telegraph article linked to a few posts prior


The Land Rover, the world's longest-serving vehicle, is to cease production after an unequalled run of 67 years. "Production of the iconic and globally recognised Land Rover Defender will cease in December 2015, " Jaguar Land Rover told Telegraph Luxury.

[Dougal]

from the Telegraph article linked to a few posts prior

That just says production of the current one will cease. But everyone already knows that.
It doesn't say anything about a replacement. We all know landrover plan a lot more models. We may don't know what they might be.

[goingbush]

That just says production of the current one will cease. But everyone already knows that.
It doesn't say anything about a replacement. We all know landrover plan a lot more models. We may don't know what they might be.

fair comment


Land Rover Defender successor on track despite brand's silence |*CarAdvice (http://www.caradvice.com.au/251444/land-rover-defender-successor-track-despite-brands-silence/)


will be interesting to see what unfolds

[Davo]

And yet LR will survive.... :)

And Tata utes can fill the farm roles :D

I was waiting for your comment! :p

Yes, other companies will make the money Land Rover can't seem to bother with. Smaaaaaart.

[goingbush]

Yes, other companies will make the money Land Rover can't seem to bother with. Smaaaaaart.

Agreed, My money has already gone to Italy ,

( Landrover could have evolved the 101 into something like this.
Dual Cab 4x4 (http://www.goingbush.com/iveco.html) )

[Davo]

Agreed, My money has already gone to Italy ,

( Landrover could have evolved the 101 into something like this.
Dual Cab 4x4 (http://www.goingbush.com/iveco.html) )

So would mine . . . if I had any. I reckon Iveco have nailed that market. You can tell that they actually tried, heaven forbid.

[DiscoMick]

So, the current model, which is outdated. will cease production, but a replacement which can be sold worldwide will follow later in the decade, is that right? Sounds fair enough.

[Davo]

Except there doesn't seem to be any idea of what the "replacement" will be, and whether or not it would actually be a workhorse some of us would want to buy, or just another plakky box.

[Dougal]

Except there doesn't seem to be any idea of what the "replacement" will be, and whether or not it would actually be a workhorse some of us would want to buy, or just another plakky box.

Car companies are incredible at keeping secrets. Remember the design time for a new vehicle is in the order of 5 years and very few details are leaked that aren't planned (oops we left a full size rendering on display while inviting journalists in for something completely unrelated).

It generally isn't until the run-out sales plan is known that real information starts "leaking" about the replacement model.

[Davo]

As I'm sure you know, they keep coming up with weird "concept" cars every so often, but nothing more. I think the new one is so secret that not even the executives know it exists!

[Fifth Columnist]

It's official....
BBC News - Emission rules to end Land Rover Defender production (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-24446070)

[solmanic]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. We already know what the Defender replacement is...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s256.photobucket.com/user/solmanic42/media/100925_orc.jpg.html)

[Dougal]

It's official....
BBC News - Emission rules to end Land Rover Defender production (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-24446070)

Emissions rules in 2020 aren't the reason.

But this quote is what we've been expecting:

JLR's head of products, John Edwards, said the new model would be "instantly recognised" by people who drive the current vehicle but it "won't necessarily be cheap".

[isuzutoo-eh]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. We already know what the Defender replacement is...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/1039.jpg (http://s418.photobucket.com/user/Burra2a/media/random/3467327_zps34237bb7.jpg.html)

Fixed it for you!

Go sell those poxy pumas and tetchy td5s and get yourself a properly robust Landy, it'll survive long enough that the replacement will probably hover! :D

[Redback]

The Land Rover, the world's longest-serving vehicle, is to cease production after an unequalled run of 67 years. "Production of the iconic and globally recognised Land Rover Defender will cease in December 2015, " Jaguar Land Rover told Telegraph Luxury.

I think this statement could be wrong, I feel they forgot about the Jeep:cool:

[JamesH]

Wow, what a stupid company. So when you want a workhorse, soon it'll be only a Toyota, or a Nissan, or a Ford, or a blah blah blah whatever. Too bad they never really bothered advertising the things or having more than a handful of dealers here. I bet if this modern Land Rover Ltd were farmers, they'd never water or fertilise the orchard they'd inherited and then wonder why nothing ever grew.

The main thing Ive learnt about the car making industry watching what has happened to Land Rover and Jaguar in the past ten? years is that Mr Tata knows a lot more about it than I do.

[goingbush]

The main thing Ive learnt about the car making industry watching what has happened to Land Rover and Jaguar in the past ten? years is that Mr Tata knows a lot more about it than I do.

that may be the definitive statement on the end of the Defender, as in Ta Ta !

[Davo]

The main thing Ive learnt about the car making industry watching what has happened to Land Rover and Jaguar in the past ten? years is that Mr Tata knows a lot more about it than I do.

It's a tough business alright, but if anyone can explain to me why a workhorse-building company can afford to turn its back on the workhorse market, then the beer is on me!

[Dougal]

It's a tough business alright, but if anyone can explain to me why a workhorse-building company can afford to turn its back on the workhorse market, then the beer is on me!

Who said they had? We have yet to see anything about the replacement model.

[Davo]

Who said they had? We have yet to see anything about the replacement model.

That's the point.

[Tombie]

I was waiting for your comment! :p

Yes, other companies will make the money Land Rover can't seem to bother with. Smaaaaaart.

You need to find a better hobby if you sit around waiting for my posts...


LR don't make planes either and therefore are missing money from that part of the global economy too... What's your point exactly?


If the company is making the money it's decided it wants to make, is developing the vehicles it wants to market - for the audience it wants to market them to, and no longer wants to make agricultural tools then that is their choice.

And lucky for you there's a virtual plethora of choice out there in both the new and used markets for those looking for something more akin to a Ferguson Tractor than a modern vehicle.

How dare these corporate executives, whose research has indicated that the profits they seek
can be found in the wallets of those who want gadgets, leather and NVH suppression rather than the pockets of those who want a more utilitarian transport. :D

[Tombie]

It's a tough business alright, but if anyone can explain to me why a workhorse-building company can afford to turn its back on the workhorse market, then the beer is on me!

You ARE kidding right!!!!

It made the first alloy vehicles because there was no steel...

The design could be done using cheap easy tooling...

Then they made the Range Rover - which basically saved the business.

Then the Discovery injected more into a struggling business...

The D2 and newer RR upped the ante..

The D3/RR/RRS then took the company in a huge leap... And suddenly the company was powering ahead, with more orders than it could produce vehicles...

All the time making the more traditional shape (Defender etc) which it sells an almost insignificant quantity of globally.

The Defender is the most expensive vehicle to produce, it's market is the smallest...

There are very few players in the luxury, truly capable, 4x4 market. There are loads of players in the ute market... Many selling far below the price point of a Defender, with more features and more than capable of the majority of work.


I'm unsure what you're trying to say Davo...

[Davo]

You need to find a better hobby if you sit around waiting for my posts...


LR don't make planes either and therefore are missing money from that part of the global economy too... What's your point exactly?


If the company is making the money it's decided it wants to make, is developing the vehicles it wants to market - for the audience it wants to market them to, and no longer wants to make agricultural tools then that is their choice.

And lucky for you there's a virtual plethora of choice out there in both the new and used markets for those looking for something more akin to a Ferguson Tractor than a modern vehicle.

How dare these corporate executives, whose research has indicated that the profits they seek
can be found in the wallets of those who want gadgets, leather and NVH suppression rather than the pockets of those who want a more utilitarian transport. :D


You ARE kidding right!!!!

It made the first alloy vehicles because there was no steel...

The design could be done using cheap easy tooling...

Then they made the Range Rover - which basically saved the business.

Then the Discovery injected more into a struggling business...

The D2 and newer RR upped the ante..

The D3/RR/RRS then took the company in a huge leap... And suddenly the company was powering ahead, with more orders than it could produce vehicles...

All the time making the more traditional shape (Defender etc) which it sells an almost insignificant quantity of globally.

The Defender is the most expensive vehicle to produce, it's market is the smallest...

There are very few players in the luxury, truly capable, 4x4 market. There are loads of players in the ute market... Many selling far below the price point of a Defender, with more features and more than capable of the majority of work.


I'm unsure what you're trying to say Davo...



You do keep answering. :p

Well, I've seen milk crates with fewer holes than another one of your arguments, but I'll have a go . . . since LR make a workhorse, then you'd think they'd have the foundation to make another one. (Where airplanes come into this I'm not sure, but no doubt there's a connection.) It could be cheaper to make than the Defender but still capable and comfortable. Then - and here's the part that is shocking in its simplicity - then they could make money by selling them! Maybe by advertising and actually having dealers! Maybe more than three for the whole of WA!

I'll wait as this sinks in . . .







And yes indeed, the Rangie did make the company a lot of money but one reason was because the Landie was so starved of development funds that the SIII was jokingly called the SII & 7/8 at the factory. If only they had done something with the Series III instead of leaving it to stagnate, then it would have made them more money in the first place . . . er, a bit like the Defender later on.

Oddly enough, nobody said anything about a replacement being "utilitarian", and while Ferguson tractors do have their charm I'm pretty sure I didn't mention them, either. Perhaps you mentioned them to skew the discussion away from what I was saying.

In fact, LR could actually make something that's perfectly capable of being a workhorse for mining-stations-farmers-firefighters-tour companies-et al that also spanned the market from simple-but-comfortable to luxurious-but-capable.

Anyway, I look forward to the all-new Discovery 6 trayback when it comes out.

[Tombie]

And I will type this slower for you....

Try and understand this.....

- .... . -.-- / -.. --- -. .----. - / -. . . -.. / - ---

No argument, no issue....

Not 'what they could do' or 'what Davo, self proclaimed CEO says they should do'

It's simple - they don't NEED to...

[Pickles2]

You ARE kidding right!!!!

It made the first alloy vehicles because there was no steel...

The design could be done using cheap easy tooling...

Then they made the Range Rover - which basically saved the business.

Then the Discovery injected more into a struggling business...

The D2 and newer RR upped the ante..

The D3/RR/RRS then took the company in a huge leap... And suddenly the company was powering ahead, with more orders than it could produce vehicles...

All the time making the more traditional shape (Defender etc) which it sells an almost insignificant quantity of globally.

The Defender is the most expensive vehicle to produce, it's market is the smallest...

There are very few players in the luxury, truly capable, 4x4 market. There are loads of players in the ute market... Many selling far below the price point of a Defender, with more features and more than capable of the majority of work.


I'm unsure what you're trying to say Davo...
Agree, particularly with your last pragraph.
There are indeed squillions of players in the ute/commercial market. Maybe they can't do EVERYTHING that Defender does, & maybe they aren't so good in "extreme" conditions, BUT the majority of buyers don't need that capability, so they buy an alternative that meets their needs, which is probably more comfortable, powerful, & practical, for their needs,than a Defender.
I would suggest that JLR know that as far as commercial reality is concerned, with respect to "realistic" sales (rather than 16000), the Defender has run its race, but run it unbelievably well.
Cheers, Pickles.

[Dougal]

That's the point.

No it's not.

There are absolutely no car companies that start releasing new model details 3 years out.
All it does is give information to competitors.

[Davo]

No it's not.

There are absolutely no car companies that start releasing new model details 3 years out.
All it does is give information to competitors.

I see what you're saying, but what I'm trying to get at is that three years ago or whenever they weren't exactly promising a replacement either. Nobody knows what they're up to and given that they barely exist in the workhorse market, this isn't going to help. On the other hand, we know that Toyota will drop the LandCruiser but will keep the Hilux. They really deserve the sales they get because they go to the trouble to get them.

In reality, as we all know, the Defender is almost dead in this market anyway. It's all very well to quote annual sales numbers and so on, but those are the numbers resulting from virtually no advertising or dealers. What I've been trying to point out is that IF they got their act together then they could compete in a market they should be capable of competing in. It's just odd that they've ignored it for so long. In fact, it would be nice if they just said, "We quit!", and then we'd look somewhere else.

Luxury car makers tend to walk a high tightrope, whereas a massive company like Toyota makes sewing machines, airport tugs, and cars as well. So if Land Rover take to the high end then hopefully they're looking at the long term. For a comparison, have a read of the report into the Rover company collapse and you'll see how it started, and was never really tackled since, back in the 70s.

And I really don't understand these bizarre comments about how we "Luddites" want a noisy and primitive vehicle. I know I never said that . . . and who would these days, anyway? Something practical, well, that's something else altogether.

Anyway, I seem to recall that they've just changed their corporate slogan to: "Land Rover, Formerly the World's Most Versatile Vehicle"!