TD5 Engine problem,

[dexcel]

Driving along this evening over to a friends house. Probably been ont he road for about 10 minutes, went up a medium incline street in 3rd but not pulling very hard. Engine sounded underpowered, so dropped to second, no change continues to lose power, dropped to first, before coming to complete halt on the road during rush hour. ( i was popular). As it was dying, it sounded rough and unbalanced like not all cylinders were firing.

i pulled over on a side street using gravity to roll back and parked up quite nicely. Tried to turn the engine over but no joy, cranked but did not fire, engine light, oil light and battery all lit up. Pumped the accelerator 6 times(fuel purge). No obvious wiring heard from the fuel pump. Tried to start again in 5 mins times which resulted after a lengthy crank to turn over again. Engine sounded fine, gave it plenty of revs, turned over fine. sat like this for a few minutes with no problems. Decided to risk continuing the short journey.

No problems initially, got up the hill, made it about 400 meters, before same problem as before but this time on a slight downward slope. engine start making unbalanced noise as before, lighting up like a Christmas tree on the dash before dieing again. Once again most popular man on the road. found a side street and pulleup. Called it quits this time and got the RACQ out.

Taken over to Leyland1980 house where we got the diagnostics tool out and gave it a run through. Of course i was unable to replicate the problem again and the Landy started first time and ticked over fine with out any issues.

Below is a brief (unlikely!) run down of the faults that were picked up by the tool. Ones with a "*" next to them were seen while the Landy was both off and on. The others were only seen while the Landy was on. The ones with the "$$$" afterwards we think might be the more serious ones.

Landy is a 2004, 170K on it, not an automatic.

8.2 fuel pump drive over temp. (logged) *
8.3 taco drive over temp (logged) *
8.4 gearbox abs over temp (logged) *
8.5 air con clutch drive (logged)*
8.6 mil lamp drive over temp (logged)*
8.7 globe plug relay drive over temp (logged)*
8.8 gp lamp drive over temp logged *
10.1 ac fan drive open load (logged)*
10.2 fuel pump drive open load (logged)*
10.3 tachometer drive open load (current)*
10.4 gearbox abs drive open load (logged)*
10.4 gearbox abs open load. (logged)
10.5 ac clutch drive OP (logged)*
10.6 mil lamp open load (logged)*
10.7 globe plug relay drive open load (logged)*
10.8 gp lamp drive OP (logged)*
12.2 fuel pump drive open load (current)* ($$$)
12.1 ac fan drive op load (current)*

1.5 driver demand problem logged ($$$)
2.8 ambient pressure circuit logged ($$$)
3.7 airflow circuit logged high ($$$)
4.1 inlet air temp circuit (logged high)
4.3 coolant temp circuit (logged high)
8.1 AC fan drive OT (logged)
12.3 taco drive open load (current). ($$$)
12.4 gearbox abs drive open load (current)
12.5 (current)
12.6 (current)
12.7 (current)
12.8 (current)

14.1 (current)
14.2 (current)($$$)
14.3 (current)($$$)
14.4 (current)
14.5 (current)
14.6 (current)
14.7 (current)
14.8 (current)

24.7 auto gearbox (current)

Any thoughts? Thanks for taking the time to read.

[justinc]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/127807-td5-air-fuel-lines-difficult-starting-2.html


The above may help?

JC

[catch-22]

I wonder if the fuel pumps dead...

[Disco Muppet]

I wonder if the fuel pumps dead...

That was my first thought, given that it happened on hills...

[justinc]

i understood it was running but not noisy...could be wrong though:angel:. considering it ran out of fuel, twice, and then was able to be restarted, and ran until another hill was encountered . most times when the pump gets to the point of actually stopping the vehicle, then a restart of any description is nigh on impossible.

did you actually get to listen for any pump noise, at all dexcel?

jc

[dexcel]

Thanks for the suggestions, we have run a check with the nanocom diagnostic unit.

It hasn't thrown up anything else besides the 10.2, 12.2 and 14.2 faults which are related to the fuel pump operation.

is there any other way to check for the fuel pump malfunctioning?

Thanks

[Series3 GT]

We had the same problem with our TD5, it was running fine and it started to lose power and sounded like it was missing and it turned out to be the fuel pump. The pump completely died but the engine still ran without the pump but not very well.

[3pointa]

I would put my money on the mass air censor. no power, would blow black smoke, wait 15min for it to cool down and drive another 15 or 20 kms then the same thing, then again and called a tow. This ezy to fit part had to be sent from sydney to darwin and cost about $230 plus the 5 days for the mechanic to work it out because it had to be hot to fault, plus accommodation for 5 days, and did I mention the 350 km flatbed ride.
Got back to work a day late also.
Has since heard that you may be able to clean them, would need to be a spray. Give it a clean and see what happens.

3pointa

[dexcel]

i understood it was running but not noisy...could be wrong though:angel:. considering it ran out of fuel, twice, and then was able to be restarted, and ran until another hill was encountered . most times when the pump gets to the point of actually stopping the vehicle, then a restart of any description is nigh on impossible.

did you actually get to listen for any pump noise, at all dexcel?

jc

When i did the fuel purge, i could hear a very slight almost background noise but nothing that sounded very pump or mechanical like.

We have restarted it another several times since the drop off and had no problems. We have let it just run again (10mins) with no probs. going to see if we can recreate the problem thursday on a stretch of road that atill gets us home if we lose power.

[justinc]

try a few hills, if it is the injector sealing washers they will play up under load/ high boost pressures.

you can drive all day on the flat or just idling around town but it doesn't become apparent until you work it usually.


jc

[harro]

I would put my money on the mass air censor. no power, would blow black smoke, wait 15min for it to cool down and drive another 15 or 20 kms then the same thing, then again and called a tow. This ezy to fit part had to be sent from sydney to darwin and cost about $230 plus the 5 days for the mechanic to work it out because it had to be hot to fault, plus accommodation for 5 days, and did I mention the 350 km flatbed ride.
Got back to work a day late also.
Has since heard that you may be able to clean them, would need to be a spray. Give it a clean and see what happens.

3pointa

Hi 3pointa,
If it is the MAF you are referring to it has a default setting in the ECU and can can be unplugged at any time and the engine will actually run quite well.
overfuels slightly down low and underfuels slightly up top but certainly no show stopper.
This goes for all the sensors on the td5 bar the crank angle sensor which IS a show stopper with no default to support it.

Does sound like the fuel pump although I have seen the same symptoms from a failed ECU although this usually generates a 'top side switch' fault as well as numerous others.

Dexcel I am assuming you are aware of the age old problem with oil migrating through the injector harness.
Oil does not have to get all the way to the ECU to cause rough running and can be caused by oil getting into the connections at the injector end causing intermittent insulation of the ECU signals to open.

If the injector harness has never been changed it may be worth doing anyway. Their seals all seem to eventually fail.

Then there is the fuel pump relay which might be worth a look at too.
It is under the drivers seat.

Cheers,
Paul.

[djam1]

I had a similar problem it turned out to be the fuel pump relay under the Defenders driver seat.
Crook connection it would work occasionally and other times the fuel pump wouldn't run causing the issue

[Leyland1980]

Hi 3pointa,
Dexcel I am assuming you are aware of the age old problem with oil migrating through the injector harness.
Oil does not have to get all the way to the ECU to cause rough running and can be caused by oil getting into the connections at the injector end causing intermittent insulation of the ECU signals to open.


As the friend in question I can state that there is no oil in the ECU plug.

If the MAF was at fault would this show up on the Nanocom?

Is there any way to test the fuel pump (the vehicle has a pump access panel so no need to drop the tank) and its relay?

If it were injector seals the oild level would be rising wouldn't it and the oild would have diesel in it - any easy tests for this?

Cheers

John

[justinc]

As the friend in question I can state that there is no oil in the ECU plug.

If the MAF was at fault would this show up on the Nanocom?

Is there any way to test the fuel pump (the vehicle has a pump access panel so no need to drop the tank) and its relay?

If it were injector seals the oild level would be rising wouldn't it and the oild would have diesel in it - any easy tests for this?

Cheers

John


Hi John, I was talking about the lower sealing copper washers, these are the ones that allow compression gasses into the fuel gallery when leaking, the Orings are what allow diesel into the crankcase when they leak.

JC

[dexcel]

Hi John, I was talking about the lower sealing copper washers, these are the ones that allow compression gasses into the fuel gallery when leaking, the Orings are what allow diesel into the crankcase when they leak.

JC

Hi JC

Been spending the evening looking around this forum and others and a reaccruing assessment for similar problems has been what you suggested about the copper washers and/or a fuel pump/fuel pressure.

To eliminate the fuel pump as a problem. How would i go about directly testing the fuel pump and diagnose if it is working properly or not. As Leyland1980 mentioned, i have relatively easy access to the pump.


Thanks

[Leyland1980]

the lower sealing copper washers, these are the ones that allow compression gasses into the fuel gallery when leaking, the Orings are what allow diesel into the crankcase when they leak.
JC

Surely if the copper washers have failed enough for compression to be lost the o rings would be taking a hammering and fail pretty soon after?

[harro]

As the friend in question I can state that there is no oil in the ECU plug.

If the MAF was at fault would this show up on the Nanocom?

Is there any way to test the fuel pump (the vehicle has a pump access panel so no need to drop the tank) and its relay?

If it were injector seals the oild level would be rising wouldn't it and the oild would have diesel in it - any easy tests for this?

Cheers

John



Hi John, to test the MAF just unplug it. If engine runs better on the default setting it either needs a clean or replacement.
At idle Maf should be reading at least 50 Kg/h on the Nanocom IIRC.
If reading significantly lower it has a problem.

As for the fuel pump relay, see if it is loose or change it out for a known good one.

I remember reading somewhere about loosening the fuel filter to test pump flow, messy:( and I personally have never had to try it, maybe someone else can comment?

Cheers,
Paul.

[justinc]

Surely if the copper washers have failed enough for compression to be lost the o rings would be taking a hammering and fail pretty soon after?

They don't fail badly enough for that, the fuel gallery pressure is around 80psi IIRC, the leak from compression gasses will be miniscule at this stage if I am correct with my 'diagnosis', as a steady but very small stream of bubbles will be entering the fuel gallery under load/ higher boost conditions. At low load and low boost IE less cylinder pressures there would be almost no leak into the fuel gallery. When you see a failed washer they have a very small area of gas tracking. The worst one I ever saw looked nothing more than a thin line across the face of the washer, that vehicle wouldn't climb a hill at all and required extensive bleeding on the side of the road to get going again, until the next hill...:(

JC

[justinc]

Unplug the fuel inlet pipe at the fuel pressure regulator at the back of the engine drivers side and get someone to cycle the key, BEWARE IT IS A FAIR BIT MESSY and NOT to be tried on a hot engine.

If you have access to a pressure gauge it would be better, however the pressure is quite high around 80 + psi so make sure the connections are OK.

JC

[Leyland1980]

BEWARE IT IS A FAIR BIT MESSY
JC

I suspect it won't be messy at all, as I am 99% sure that the pump is dead as a door nail!

[dexcel]

Well we changed out the fuel pump relay but no difference and mine was working when tested on the other defender.

We then compared pump whirring noises between the two defenders, very obvious that mine is not making any sort of noise compared to leyland1980.

So just ordered new fuel pump from Paddocks which should be here sometime next week with any luck.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

So will update (OP will surley deliver!) when that arrives and it as been changed out and hopefully that will be the end of this problem.

Look out for a post regarding wiring and electrics once this has been fixed!

[BilboBoggles]

ignore this update I posted before I read the above update....

[dexcel]

Since the last post a number of issues with the lighting and electrics have also presented themselves just to add insult to injury. The Landy has been chilling at Leyland1980's house

OP will surely deliver right:

So the Landy is back up an running.

last nights conversation went a bit like this


ring ring ring

Leyland1980: Hey do you want some good news or bad news first

Dexcel: bad news first please

Leyland1980: You now have a spare fuel pump that you don't need.

Dexcel: okay not the end of the world and the good news

Leyland1980: I've figured out what the problem was. There were a bunch of earth wires that hadn't been properly earthed by the gearbox. They must have not been connected up properly to the gear box during the repair of the transfer box. So your fuel pump is back making noise and all your electrics are working properly again. just been for a test drive and its all gravy.

Dexcel: Happy Days, beers all round then....


So yeah all back up and running for now, big relief thanks to Leyland1980 and a bit of tinkering from him.

So lesson 1: Check first at areas that have been mucked around with recently for any faults.