The end of the Australian Ford

[Chucaro]

Ford set to end car-making in Australia (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/ford-set-to-end-car-making-in-australia/story-e6frg6nf-1226648917020)

"FORD will abandon its Australian operations in 2016 in a massive blow to the nation's manufacturing industry.

The company will announce at 11am today that it will close its Broadmeadows and Geelong plants, in Victoria.

Sources said Ford had come to a decision that it was no longer viable for it to produce vehicles in Australia."

[ATH]

Probably a ploy to blackmail Gillard and her henchman Swan to give them more, much more taxpayers hard earned to"save" jobs.
Let them go and those made redundant can be retrained to flip burgers.
Or maybe Ford could be persuaded to make cars the public want instead.
AlanH.

[Chucaro]

If the politician have "balls"should tell Ford and any other company that act in that manner that in the future their products will be not allowed to enter in Australia until they pay all the money given to them in the past.
Bloody globalization it is only good for the economy of the big capitals but not for the people. :mad:

[juddo]

You cannot blame Ford for the government giving them money. It was the government's decision. Like it or not, the Australian people got what the voted for. I guess if people do not like it, they should show their displeasure at the polling booth.

Regarding Ford closing its doors. I think it is sad to see. The current Falcon / G series is in my opinion, by far the best they have ever built. I have a new G6 company car, and reckon it is fantastic.

It has the standard 4L 6cyl petrol which I find quite economical, very powerful, very smooth... But I guess everyone needs a SUV now days to take the kids to school and do the shopping.

[DieselDan]

Yep, we got told of this at work this morning, the mood isn't spectacularly happy as I'm sure you can imagine.

Now, before this descends into even more of the usual "Ford makes crap anyway, glad to see the back of 'em....make 'em pay back all the government handouts, etc, etc..." consider this:

The annual investment by our government in the auto industry works out to be about $18 per person.
In Germany, the government subsidizes the auto industry to the tune of $95 per person.
In the USA, it's $260 per person.

The 'hand-outs' that the car industry get here is a pittance compared to the rest of the manufacturing world.

Also consider that it costs a 5% tariff to import a car here, unless it comes from a free trade country we have an agreement with, in which case it's zero.
Now, if the car manufacturers here want to send a car overseas, there's a 15% tariff in Japan, a total of 29% tariff in Germany, a 60% tariff in India, 43% in China, etc...
These countries aren't stupid, they protect their local manufacturing!

Once upon a time, our industry was protected too, but then some politicians with 'balls' removed all the import restrictions that, surprise surprise, other countries kept in place.

I also recommend a bit of googling to see how much of 'our' money the government has invested in the car handling facility at Port Melbourne to make it even easier for foreign manufacturers to bring their cars here.

Would anyone want to continue manufacturing under these conditions?

I'm not for one minute defending the decision by Ford and its management, they have a lot to answer for and its absolutely terrible news for the local manufacturing industry and the people whose livelihood depends on it, just please spare me the inevitable holier-than-thou onslaught of "local cars are crap, pay back all the tax money, etc...." . It doesn't help.

[BMKal]

You cannot blame Ford for the government giving them money. It was the government's decision. Like it or not, the Australian people got what the voted for. I guess if people do not like it, they should show their displeasure at the polling booth.



Only problem is .......... I think you'll find that Ford (and others) have been given money by governments of both political persuasions.

So who do you vote for ???????? :angel:

[Dougal]

Interesting that the only vehicle maintaining sales is the one with a diesel option. The press say it's due to people wanting SUV's instead of cars. They keep missing the diesel thing entirely.

IMO the world is sick of thirsty cars. But Ford (AU) and Holden keep making them and their sales keep declining.

[DieselDan]

Interesting that the only vehicle maintaining sales is the one with a diesel option. The press say it's due to people wanting SUV's instead of cars. They keep missing the diesel thing entirely.

IMO the world is sick of thirsty cars. But Ford (AU) and Holden keep making them and their sales keep declining.

Indeed!
Not sure if it was ever seriously considered, but only putting a diesel option in the Territory (and even then being very late to the party!) and not in anything else, could be seen as a big mistake!

[juddo]

Interesting that the only vehicle maintaining sales is the one with a diesel option. The press say it's due to people wanting SUV's instead of cars. They keep missing the diesel thing entirely.

IMO the world is sick of thirsty cars. But Ford (AU) and Holden keep making them and their sales keep declining.

You may be right with what you say, but "sick of thirsty cars" is a perception that is in my opinion not a reality. example.

The other week I had to take a road trip down the Shepparton to do some work. It is 770km between filling and filling the tank and I used 65L of E10 fuel. That is in a Ford G6 4L straight 6 petrol engine. That equates to 8.4L/100km. I would not call that thirsty for a large car with a big powerful engine. Given, the day to day economy is not that good. It is between 10-11L/100km, and being a company car I do not drive it softly.

I have no idea what real figures the ecotech engine gets, but I imagine it would be quite a bit better.

As comparison, my Discovery 3 TDV6 used to get as good as about 7-8L/100km cruising on highways, but now with the new tyres it is more like 8-9L/100km.

Anyway, perception is everything, and trying to sell a product that customers do not want to purchase for whatever reason is folly.

[incisor]

Only problem is .......... I think you'll find that Ford (and others) have been given money by governments of both political persuasions.

So who do you vote for ???????? :angel:

someone with the balls to bring back the "level" playing field...

[FeatherWeightDriver]

A sad day indeed for us all. :mad:

DieselDan and Incisor hit the nail on the head - if there was a level playing field then manufacturing might stand a chance here. But our all knowing governments (yes plural - both persuasions) are keen on dropping trade barriers which rarely means we sell more overseas, but always seem to drop the price of imported goods making local manufacturing viability dubious at best.

Once Ford shuts up shop you can be assured they will not start back up again until Australia becomes the lowest cost to manufacture location (and that isn't happening any time soon).

It is only a matter of time until Holden does the same...

[Dougal]

You may be right with what you say, but "sick of thirsty cars" is a perception that is in my opinion not a reality. example.

The other week I had to take a road trip down the Shepparton to do some work. It is 770km between filling and filling the tank and I used 65L of E10 fuel. That is in a Ford G6 4L straight 6 petrol engine. That equates to 8.4L/100km. I would not call that thirsty for a large car with a big powerful engine. Given, the day to day economy is not that good. It is between 10-11L/100km, and being a company car I do not drive it softly.

I have no idea what real figures the ecotech engine gets, but I imagine it would be quite a bit better.

As comparison, my Discovery 3 TDV6 used to get as good as about 7-8L/100km cruising on highways, but now with the new tyres it is more like 8-9L/100km.

Anyway, perception is everything, and trying to sell a product that customers do not want to purchase for whatever reason is folly.

My two tdi work cars (both 4wd, but cars) will do ~6 litres/100km on road. On a flat warm cruise at 100km the one with a digital readout can be below 5 litres/100km.
Ford have a diesel Mondeo that with a manual gearbox will do similar figures. So why buy the falcon?

IMO if they had placed the falcon as the "muscle diesel" it would be outselling everything. How difficult is it to put the 2.7tdv6 into a falcon? It's in the falcon based territory already so drivetrain etc is already done, Jag ran it successfully in their cars too so clearance can't be a big problem.

It seems to me that someone in FORD global HQ simply gave FORD Au enough rope to hang themselves. They are selling essentially the same cars they have sold for 20 years. More evolved, but fundamentally the same.

[101RRS]

Ford have not sought additional funds from the Government and have publicly announced it will not be seeking new funds.

Also the money provided to Ford was for Ford to produce its new 2014 range which it has committed to do - so Ford has/will meet all its commitments for its obtaining that funding - so I would say the above comments made re taking our money and running would seem way off the mark.

If we look at the experience of Nissan and Mitsubishi this will be the best thing to happen to Ford and employment in the car supply industry. Both the above companies sell more cars, they employ more people and make more money than they ever did as a manufacturer.

However given the "robotisation" of car manufacturer and the substantial reduction of labour I am surprised it costs twice as much to make a car in Aust than in Europe and 4 times as expensive as Asia then this clearly highights there are structural issues that raise costs in Aust. Noting that for the home market the exchange rate is not such an issue, maybe advantageous as parts coming from overseas like some engines etc are cheaper.

Garry

[sheerluck]

.....It is only a matter of time until Holden does the same...

I think that the bells are already starting to toll there. With the introduction of the Opel range, I think that that is big mummy GM already laying the foundations for a 100% imported range.

[Basil135]

The biggest problem in all of this, is there is something like 27,000 people employed directly & indirectly in the car industry in this country.

Should we stop making cars here, then the real problems start.

If even half of them go on unemployment benefits, thats 13,500 people that the government has to support.

So, by giving the car industries a financial boost, they are actually saving money. Now, I am no government supporter, but this makes economic sense.

HOWEVER, as has been said, have the balls to increase the import tariff, on cars priced below a certain threshold, and stop the flood of cheap cars that are only designed to last 5 years.

The playing field certainly is not level.:nazilock:

[101RRS]

Should we stop making cars here, then the real problems start.

If even half of them go on unemployment benefits, thats 13,500 people that the government has to support.

HOWEVER, as has been said, have the balls to increase the import tariff, on cars priced below a certain threshold, and stop the flood of cheap cars that are only designed to last 5 years.

The playing field certainly is not level.:nazilock:

That is not the long term experience from Nissan and Mitsubishi stopping local manufacturer. In fact the opposite.

If we are to put tariffs on imported vehicles we will be back in the good old days of crap aussie cars that could not compete on their own - also if we do that we will have counter tariffs on our goods overseas. I do agree though that some action where overseas products are subsidised is fair game but where the playing field is level then leave things as they are.

Our car makers have been subsidised by the government and I am surprised foreign countries have not hit the few cars we do export with counter tariffs - we do not make the the playing field level either.

Garry

Garry

[KarlB]

The following article on the closure from today's Crikey by Bernard Keane is worth reading:

Is Ford’s closure of its Australian operations, announced in Melbourne today, a disaster? Are its employees, plus the component manufacturers that depend on Ford, victims of the strong dollar and economic rationalist ideology? Does this demonstrate the decline and fall of Aussie manufacturing?

No, no and no.

Due to the Ford closure around 1200 people directly will lose their jobs, plus more in the automotive components sector. It comes after over 400 workers were retrenched last year. Thousands of families will be disrupted and many workers may struggle to find jobs without significant retraining. But unemployment is still relatively low, and there’s more than three years until the final Ford closure. Without downplaying the impact on affected workers, ABS labour mobility data suggests that around 7000 workers change jobs every day in Australia. So, the Ford closure won’t even add the equivalent of one day’s worth of mobility, even though the losses will be confined to a much smaller area.

And while the strong dollar and lower tariffs for imported vehicles since 2010 haven’t helped, the key reason for Ford closing is because Australians, despite buying new cars like never before, don’t like Fords. In 2012, Ford’s best selling model, the Focus, barely scraped into the top 10 selling models despite a big lift in sales. Its second-best selling model, the Ranger, is a ute. Its flagship family sedan, the Falcon, was 21st, suffering a 25% slump in sales. And that came after a 37% slump in sales in 2011 (Ford says it will “retire” the nameplate in 2016; the question is whether it will make it to 2016). In the year to March, Ford suffered a nearly 14% dip in total sales.

These aren’t the numbers of a company suffering increased competition from a stronger currency, but a company that can’t convince consumers to buy its flagship product any more, a company that has lost touch with consumers, as so often happens with protected industries.

Nor is the closure representative of Australian manufacturing. For all the stories about high-profile manufacturers struggling, in the year to February the total manufacturing workforce fell by just 3000, or a third of 1%, to 954,000 in trend terms — the lowest fall in years.

The Prime Minister, who as recently as April claimed the election of Tony Abbott would see the car industry close in Geelong, this morning announced the federal government would contribute $30 million to a $40 million package to “support the economic development and diversification of the Geelong and northern Melbourne regions”. She dismissed suggestions that automotive manufacturing was unviable in Australia and claimed it was a major strategic industry. The federal government will also be pumping an additional $10 million into the Automotive New Markets Program for component manufacturers.

Why the loss of 1200 jobs in one region attracts $40 million in handouts wasn’t explained by the Prime Minister, although the electoral logic of trying to hang on to the highly marginal electorate of Labor-held Corangamite is clear.

In truth, Ford’s closure should have happened well before now. But the Detroit multinational has kept factories operating because it has been paid to do so by a government deluded that making physical products is somehow a more real economic activity than services, or producing intellectual property — and funded by unions with a vested interest in keeping uncompetitive factories open to employ their members. It was a scam perpetuated at the expense of taxpayers, but one that couldn’t survive changes in consumer preference and the removal of the barriers that hindered consumers from choosing what they wanted.

Unfortunately Holden and Toyota will continue to receive taxpayer bribes to maintain uncompetitive operations because they play a minor role in Australian manufacturing.

[Redback]

I have a feeling Ford AU have no control over this decision, it would be the parent company that has made this decision.

Baz.

[BMKal]

I think that the bells are already starting to toll there. With the introduction of the Opel range, I think that that is big mummy GM already laying the foundations for a 100% imported range.

Think they might have a bit of time left yet with the iminent release of the new VF range.

Also interesting to note that the soon to be released "Chevrolet SS" is a LHD Commodore SSV. Was reading an interesting article last night on how they are looking to the future for further applications of this platform - one is an all wheel drive "crossover" wagon, based on the VF Commodore wagon. The photo that they have put up looks like a Commodore wagon with a Colorado type grille - fitted with the 2.8 litre duramax diesel.

I think that at least GM has given Holden a better chance to survive in that they have actively chased export opportunities for some years now - both to the US and elsewhere. I was very surprised at the number of Holden Caprices (re-badged as Buick Park Royal) that I saw on a recent trip to China for example.

The Australian Falcon (and possibly the Territory as well) is a product that would probably sell very well in the US (and elsewhere) given the current lack of large rear wheel drive American sedans - but for reasons best known to themselves, Ford seems to have failed to explore this opportunity. It's a pretty well known fact that the Australian market alone is not big enough to support the design and manufacture of such a vehicle - GM at least seems to have realised this and have been selling to multiple markets for some years now.

I think the saddest part of any auto manufacturing shut-down in Australia is the potential loss of Australian design input - it is also a well known fact that some of the best car designs in the world in recent years have come from Ford and Holden in Australia. Their designs are influencing much of what we see on the roads from a number of countries. Will indeed be a pity if this is lost.

[Mick_Marsh]

My thoughts go out to the Victorian employees and their families of the Ford plants that are closing down.
I know this will be ripping the heart out of Geelong.

I would love to replace my aging Commodore with a Ford. I have a brochure for a Territory in my laptop bag. I've been looking at it for some time.
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to purchase one as I was made redundant yesterday.

It's getting ugly out there.
GSK in Boronia announced earlier this week 120 jobs cut. Production is moving to Poland.
Our economy is going down. Not a crash. Just slowly going down and will continue to go down for quite a few more years yet. Expect more bad news.
All the burger flipping positions have been filled. Australia is one of the most expensive places to live nowdays. It's cheaper to holiday for two weeks in New York than to holiday for two weeks in Brisbane.
Now that I have mentioned America, the American economy is now recovering. Manufacturing is leading the charge. We need to bring manufacturing back into the country. Over the last number of years we have seen a steady stream of companies move their manufacturing off shore.
For selected industries we should introduce a system of tarris and subsidies. We need to protect our industries, as our competitors are.
We need to keep a local automotive industry. And a local pharmaceutical industry. And a local clothing industry. And...............etc., etc., etc.
We could move our political industry off shore. The politicians would be much cheaper and couldn't be any worse than what we have.

I think I've said more than enough. I'm sure I'll be saying more in the future. I'll be having a lot of idle time on my hands.

[Dougal]

someone with the balls to bring back the "level" playing field...

Tariffs won't make people buy cars they don't want.

You can put as many % as you want on the import of other cars into Aussie. But I still won't buy a falcon because it's completely unsuited to my needs.

It's the cars that need to change.

Otherwise it's welcome to the USSR, please join the waiting list for your Lada Comrade. There are no choices, no options, you will like the car you are given.

[DieselDan]

^^^
That's true, but if the playing field was level, then it would purely be down to the success or otherwise of the products that the local companies produce. If no-one likes what they make, they don't sell any, they only have themselves to blame.
At the moment, to quote Sean Connery, they are "bringing a knife to a gunfight"

[incisor]

Tariffs won't make people buy cars they don't want.

You can put as many % as you want on the import of other cars into Aussie. But I still won't buy a falcon because it's completely unsuited to my needs.

It's the cars that need to change.

Otherwise it's welcome to the USSR, please join the waiting list for your Lada Comrade. There are no choices, no options, you will like the car you are given.

what crock of crap.

no one is trying to deny market forces or force you into buying anything, just getting the forces in a straight line so that other countries industry subsidies and currency valuations are taken into account so australian producers are not disadvantaged in the overall scheme of things.

[isuzurover]

what crock of crap.

no one is trying to deny market forces or force you into buying anything, just getting the forces in a straight line so that other countries industry subsidies and currency valuations are taken into account so australian producers are not disadvantaged in the overall scheme of things.

From what I have read, the biggest factors are labour costs and freight costs - both of which tarrifs won't change.

Australia is about the most expensive place in the world to manufacture cars. Add to that the fact that most of the world don't want the cars we are making.

EDIT: and I am not saying that falcodores aren't good cars with good economy for their power output. However history is littered with great products that didn't sell.

[Dougal]

what crock of crap.

no one is trying to deny market forces or force you into buying anything, just getting the forces in a straight line so that other countries industry subsidies and currency valuations are taken into account so australian producers are not disadvantaged in the overall scheme of things.

Nope.
Price/tax/tariff aside, the falcon is not even on car buyers lists. That's why it's dying. You can tax/tariff the hell out of the competition and it will only give you another year or two at massive cost to the public.

Given the choice between a mondeo and a falcon, even if the mondeo gets $5k dearer (i.e. not level playing field) I would still take the mondeo.

You cannot tax your way to prosperity. Falcons have not changed as buyers needs and perceptions have changed and that ultimately is the problem. The cost of manufacturing is a distant second to a product that doesn't move with the times and doesn't sell because of that.

[newhue]

SNIP
It seems to me that someone in FORD global HQ simply gave FORD Au enough rope to hang themselves. They are selling essentially the same cars they have sold for 20 years. More evolved, but fundamentally the same.

Sound a bit like the Defender's story.....

It is a shame really, we have a focus. I don't know if it's a re-baged ? sold on by ford, but it goes well with virtually no warranty issues. Far from my Land Rover with it's 2.4 euro 4 compliant motor producing worse economy than a falcon.

[bee utey]

The "big six" all Aussie car used to be the towing vehicle of choice for nearly every family man for decades. The fact that its job has been taken over by a huge range of AWD/4WD small, medium and large vehicles has completely escaped the makers of large sedans. Some will mourn their passing but most will buy other more capable vehicles instead.

Perhaps with the evolution of 3D printers/robots new cars can be made anywhere in the world to anyone's specs, just like how guns are being printed. Welcome to the myriad possibilities of the future.

[Chops]

Sorry to hear of your dilemma Mick,, good luck with finding work mate, and I feel just as miserable for all the guys at Ford,, :(

I remember walking into work some 20 odd years ago, and a sign in the tunnel before you went upstairs and entered the factory said, that "all Australian made vehicles must have 80% Aust made content",, This has been changing for quite some time, and now I doubt they "have" to have any % Aus made.
As Dan pointed out earlier, the subsidies are massive in other countries,, it would be interesting to see what would happen to those companies if the OS Govt's stopped the handouts. All of our Govts are just too weak to even try and do anything about it.
That factory where I worked is now all but defunct I think, its tiny compared to when I was there, as now I believe most of its product is made OS, and all because its cheaper to build, (and this was a major plan years ago), not to mention with the loss of the Ford contract, and God knows Holden will never buy an Aussie built gearbox, (because then the Americans will be out of work in their gearbox factory) all they're product is sold OS. So they save on all the freight "in coming" and well now there is basically no "out going", so they save there big time.

And the old saying "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday", with so many Holden's in the races now compared to Fords,, it hasn't looked good for a long time :(

[Hoges]

4 factors: population, land size, distance and cost. We don't have a large enough population for critical mass to achieve economies of scale demanded by global markets.

Places like China and Thailand don't have our resources to compete on the material side, but their economic advantage is cheap labour...

It costs megabucks by comparison to bring component parts here, assemble them into vehicles with high cost labour then sometimes export to the rest of the world... looking at it from Europe or Nth America...why would you bother??

Basically we have a total population equal to some major cities in other parts of the world, thinly spread...

Further we don't have massive differences in wealth distribution evident in SE Asia Europe, USA, China and India etc. Rightly, we look after the marginalised and dispossessed far better than most other places in the world. We have an average weekly earnings about double the USA now... but it all adds to cost of production...

Not wanting to get political... it's basic economics.. we can't expect to compete with countries where the daily wage is 1/10th of what's expected here..

So what do we do...

The issue with the car industry is that it's very strategic in maintaining manufacturing skills generally which can be applied to other industries...it's not just about making cars... there's all sorts of spin off effects... the whole automotive manufacturing supply chain will creak and groan because of the greater weight put on it by the absence of support of a major player... the economies of scale will diminish and the costs will rise for GM and Toyota, eventually forcing them from the market as well..

We only have ourselves to blame:angel::wasntme:

[robbotd5]

The crux of the matter still remains. Why can't we as a nation produce a range of cars that that are desirable and exportable. I have always favored European cars but have always had respect for the local products. More so for the workers of these companies. Manufacturing is dead in this country and who is to blame?. The Government of course. Protecting Australian jobs and manufacturing should be at the top of the pollies priorities. Like others have said "a level playing field". Looked at my weather shield on the Disco, genuine, made in Australia. Top stuff. We Always buy Campbells products after visiting Shepparton on our last big trip. Campbells, SPC Ardmona are all icons well worth protecting. So support them!!!. It just seem to me that mining is far more important than manufacturing. There needs to be a balance. Or we will be a big hole in the ground and drive around in Great Walls, Cherrys and Mahindra's, if we can afford them.
Regards
Robbo

[Mick_Marsh]

Why can't we as a nation produce a range of cars that that are desirable and exportable.
The Commodore is exported to the UK, America. SE Asia and the middle east.
Plans are to move the manufacturing of the Commodore to America.

[Chivalry]

Really does suck that so many people will lose their jobs, but couldn't care less that the Falcon/Territory won't be being built any more.

[Chucaro]

someone with the balls to bring back the "level" playing field...

and when one show up the majority of people will said that he/she is mad :(

[incisor]

Nope.
Price/tax/tariff aside, the falcon is not even on car buyers lists. That's why it's dying. You can tax/tariff the hell out of the competition and it will only give you another year or two at massive cost to the public.

Given the choice between a mondeo and a falcon, even if the mondeo gets $5k dearer (i.e. not level playing field) I would still take the mondeo.

You cannot tax your way to prosperity. Falcons have not changed as buyers needs and perceptions have changed and that ultimately is the problem. The cost of manufacturing is a distant second to a product that doesn't move with the times and doesn't sell because of that.

your looking little picture, i was commenting big picture...

i don't want to buy a falcon either but a formula that works to keep manufacturing alive in au needs to be worked out... so many other smaller sectors depend on it.

why is it so wrong for us to do what everybody else is doing and supporting our own?

there are not too many big ticket sectors of the economy left to carry the place when you lose manufacturing, retail / small business and primary industry...

we cant all wipe tourists butts....

[Chucaro]

From what I have read, the biggest factors are labour costs and freight costs - both of which tarrifs won't change.

Australia is about the most expensive place in the world to manufacture cars. Add to that the fact that most of the world don't want the cars we are making.

EDIT: and I am not saying that falcodores aren't good cars with good economy for their power output. However history is littered with great products that didn't sell.

Out of curiosity, do you know how much earn a worker in AUDI, MB, BMW and VW in Germany?

Back in 2010 an article in Forbes by Frederick E. Allen said, quote:
the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour. Yet Germany’s big three car companies—BMW, Daimler (Mercedes-Benz), and Volkswagen—are very profitable.

[Dougal]

your looking little picture, i was commenting big picture...

i don't want to buy a falcon either but a formula that works to keep manufacturing alive in au needs to be worked out... so many other smaller sectors depend on it.

why is it so wrong for us to do what everybody else is doing and supporting our own?

there are not too many big ticket sectors of the economy left to carry the place when you lose manufacturing, retail / small business and primary industry...

we cant all wipe tourists butts....

When you have a product that sells and is profitable, manufacturing is successful.
When your product doesn't sell, it doesn't matter how good the manufacturing is. It's doomed.

This is the big picture.

Tariffs/subsidies never work as intended. All they do is hide problems and let them grow. It's like giving the fat kid a 40m head-start in a 100m sprint.

[LandyAndy]

Sad days indeed.
I have owned lots of Falcoons and had them as company drives too.
They finally got it right with the BA.My boys XR6 BA(non turbo) is a loverley car to steer,plenty of grunt and it feels like a strong car,its very good economy wise,easy and cheap to service.Hop into a dunnydoore,they are a poor option.
Ford should have put that D3 mojo into the Falcoon too,not just the Territory.I have driven a diesel Territory,NICE!!!!
Anyhow,the writing is on the wall,3 years to save up for one of the last ever Falcoon GTs,I WANT ONE,a brand new one :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

[jimr1]

Ford look at the bottom line , as do all multi nationals . There are no winners here in aus. The workforce loose there jobs , not only at Ford , but in the suply chain as well .Whole comunitys will have to adjust . Our reserve bank kept interest rates some of the highest in the world, pulling in hugh amounts of forain capital . pushing the ausies $ up and up , making our manufacturing uncompetetive , and reducing the cost of imports .The only winners were the banks , how much have they made collectively over the last few years ..

[Mick_Marsh]

When you have a product that sells and is profitable, manufacturing is successful.
When your product doesn't sell, it doesn't matter how good the manufacturing is. It's doomed.

This is the big picture.

Tariffs/subsidies never work as intended. All they do is hide problems and let them grow. It's like giving the fat kid a 40m head-start in a 100m sprint.
The Falcon does sell, just not in the numbers it used to. As does the Commodore.
They are still a car suited to Australian conditions.
One of the problems is we are flooded with imports that are much cheaper for various reasons. Some of those reasons are anticompetitive.
Let me explain what I mean by giving an example.

On a project I worked on there was a requirement for some skid mounted equipment. This is equipment that is built in a factory and shipped to a remote site on a skid for connection into an installation. We wanted it to have Australian content and had a price in mind, but, when the BHP steel locally purchased was priced up it was expensive. We priced up the same Australian steel shipped from New Zealand and it was much cheaper. But the real killer was we could buy the equipment from India fully assembled, ready for production, shipped to Australia and using the same Australian steel for about the same cost as buying the steel in Australia.

There is something very wrong somewhere.

[LandyAndy]

Lets see what happens to the parts suppliers now.
They once had 4 customers,now Ford and Mitsi are gone can they still survive???? I doubt it.
Andrew

[S3ute]

Well. Here's me all the time thinking all you guys are buying English built and Indian owned automobiles......

What part of inconsistency am I overlooking here?

And yes, I own and drive Falcons.

Cheers,

[LandyAndy]

My D2 and Defender are of questionable heritage,more german than Indian.
Anyhow,I love curries and Fords;););););););)

[gromit]

Ford apparently made a $141 million loss last financial year, $600 million over the last 5 years.
The comments about the giving of or paying back government grants & subsidies always makes me laugh. Ford themselves have lost millions, the losses are increasing and finally they have made a business decision to stop local manufacture.
The question is whether it was only market forces or partly due to some of their own mistakes....

The diesel Territory took about 4 years too long to get to market. They have ecoboost diesel Falcons & Terri's on test but again it's taken them too long to get to market. I remember the GM of Ford Australia being asked a few years ago why they had no diesels in the range, he commented that you'd be mad to go for diesel when LPG is so cheap in Australia.

Last year Holden announced the closing of the design department in Australia. As already mentioned, Opel dealers are opening here so Holden probably won't be too far behind Ford.

It's sad, and I feel for the workers losing their jobs. Problem is that most Australians are buying lower cost imported vehicles

I drive a diesel Territory and my wife has a petrol Territory (needed because we have 5 children and my car passes to her when I replace). Build quality has been OK, diesel version has been excellent.

Another nail in the coffin for manufacturing in Australia. The knock-on effects in the supply chain will cause many more job losses.


Colin

[Chucaro]

Ford apparently made a $141 million loss last financial year, $600 million over the last 5 years.
The comments about the giving of or paying back government grants & subsidies always makes me laugh. Ford themselves have lost millions, the losses are increasing and finally they have made a business decision to stop local manufacture.
The question is whether it was only market forces or partly due to some of their own mistakes....

The diesel Territory took about 4 years too long to get to market. They have ecoboost diesel Falcons & Terri's on test but again it's taken them too long to get to market. I remember the GM of Ford Australia being asked a few years ago why they had no diesels in the range, he commented that you'd be mad to go for diesel when LPG is so cheap in Australia.

Last year Holden announced the closing of the design department in Australia. As already mentioned, Opel dealers are opening here so Holden probably won't be too far behind Ford.

It's sad, and I feel for the workers losing their jobs. Problem is that most Australians are buying lower cost imported vehicles

I drive a diesel Territory and my wife has a petrol Territory (needed because we have 5 children and my car passes to her when I replace). Build quality has been OK, diesel version has been excellent.

Another nail in the coffin for manufacturing in Australia. The knock-on effects in the supply chain will cause many more job losses.


Colin

Interesting contrast in point of view. comments like yours makes me very sad.
Tax money have given to allow business managers to subsidize their bad practices.
In your comment you agree that they took to long to come with new models.
Of course the politicians in present and pass governments are at fault as well to support manufacturing of models of cars that were not suitable for the local market.

[Bigbjorn]

Our high value AU$ has a lot to do with making imports cheap.

As to efficiency, GM-H employed 26,000 in 1970 and 8,000 today probably making more cars.

What is required is enforced Australian manufacture. A system of import quotas that are reduced every year until the make starts at least CKD assembly in Australia. High unemployment will never be reduced until there are plenty of low skill/unskilled manufacturing jobs.

What most of the "fully imported" car snobs don't appear to know is that Ford and GM-H are making damn good cars. Europeans are gobsmacked when they see how much car we get for the money. They drive Fiats, Renaults and such rubbish that don't fit four full grown adult males.

[101RRS]

They drive Fiats, Renaults and such rubbish that don't fit four full grown adult males.

And in Australia the "average" driver does not want to drive a vehicle that will fit our full grown adult males but the Japanese and Korean equivalents of Fiats, Renaults and such rubbish.

Yes Ford has similar cars but they do not make them here.

Garry

[mikehzz]

As someone who employs people, I can tell you that it just costs too much. Workers comp, super, sick pay, holiday pay, long service....don't get me wrong, I'm for them all, but the rest of the world are on lower rates without the benefits in most cases. We are suffering from being ahead of the curve as far as workers rights are concerned. I know some European makers are similar but they get more government support. I've travelled a lot overseas, almost everything is too expensive in Australia compared to elsewhere. I reckon it's all labour costs at every link in the chain.

[Mick_Marsh]

As someone who employs people, I can tell you that it just costs too much. Workers comp, super, sick pay, holiday pay, long service....don't get me wrong, I'm for them all, but the rest of the world are on lower rates without the benefits in most cases. We are suffering from being ahead of the curve as far as workers rights are concerned. I know some European makers are similar but they get more government support. I've travelled a lot overseas, almost everything is too expensive in Australia compared to elsewhere. I reckon it's all labour costs at every link in the chain.
Good point.
I wouldn't want to lose them though. With what happened in Bangladesh still in the recent memory.

[incisor]

There is something very wrong somewhere.

and that my friend is what all the anti tariff / protection / subsidy guys don't want to get their heads around..

it aint about protecting fat kids

[incisor]

I reckon it's all labour costs at every link in the chain.

so it isnt red tape and government interference after all..

and the beat goes on.....

[OffTrack]

Ford seems to have a bit of track record of not being able to keep subsidiary businesses profitable. You only have to look at Jaguar and Land Rover's recent history to see that. JLR was apparently "bleeding money" from the mothership prior to it's sale to Tata. Yet Tata managed to return JLR to profitability in 2 years.

Former Victorian premier John Brumby has been pointing the finger at Ford HQ on this too.

Ford made mistakes, says Brumby (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/ford-made-mistakes-says-brumby-20130523-2k2kb.html)

[mikehzz]

so it isnt red tape and government interference after all..

and the beat goes on.....

Oh well, i go and stay with friends in France and compare average wages. They seem poor by comparison until you compare their grocery bill, way cheaper. Houses are cheaper. About the only thing they pay more for is petrol. Like I said, I'm not bitching about our wages and benefits but facts are facts. Big manufacturers know it and they can set up where they please. Small business people are stuck here. I also don't think it matters which government is in charge, I'm not making a political statement.
Ford is walking away because they aren't making any money. I'm contending that the workforce costs too much. Common sense says they should set up where the work force doesn't cost as much and then sell cars back too us because after all, we have fat pay cheques to pay for them. It's stupid to add the cost of that fat pay cheque into the car before you sell it.

[gromit]

Interesting contrast in point of view. comments like yours makes me very sad.
Tax money have given to allow business managers to subsidize their bad practices.
In your comment you agree that they took to long to come with new models.
Of course the politicians in present and pass governments are at fault as well to support manufacturing of models of cars that were not suitable for the local market.

I'm not sure why the comment would make you sad.
Would you prefer the company had shut down earlier and all those workers were out out of work a few years earlier costing the taxpayers much more money in benefits ?
Governments across the World subsidise industries to keep people in employment.

One point you make is valid. If a subsidy is provided then someone from outside should be involved directly with how the company uses the money.

A colleague in the UK contacted me last night about the Ford Australia closure. I hadn't realised that Ford no longer manufacture in the UK.
The last plant to shut was the Transit plant in Southampton. Now manufactured in Turkey and most of the sub-suppliers are within Turkey.

A lot of people drive around in fully imported vehicles and complain when Australian car manufacturers close. The question is whether they are buying the imported cars because they are 'better' than the local offer or whether they are buying because they are just cheaper.
Manufacturing is steadily moving overseas and each Goverment has done nothing to stop it happening.


Colin

[incisor]

Oh well, i go and stay with friends in France and compare average wages. They seem poor by comparison until you compare their grocery bill, way cheaper. Houses are cheaper. About the only thing they pay more for is petrol. Like I said, I'm not bitching about our wages and benefits but facts are facts. Big manufacturers know it and they can set up where they please. Small business people are stuck here. I also don't think it matters which government is in charge, I'm not making a political statement.


yep

client of mine is an international leasing agent.. he tells me I can get a shop in a nice spot in the middle of paris cheaper per sq metre than I can in down town morayfield..

something is way out of kilter..

a mate just bought a large estate in france for less than he sold his house in down town Caboolture for..

he is moving over next month with enough money in tow to take his beloved mg with him..

makes you wonder

[DieselDan]

When you have a product that sells and is profitable, manufacturing is successful.
When your product doesn't sell, it doesn't matter how good the manufacturing is. It's doomed.

This is the big picture.

Tariffs/subsidies never work as intended. All they do is hide problems and let them grow. It's like giving the fat kid a 40m head-start in a 100m sprint.

Exactly.
Up to roughly 10 years ago the Falcodores were successful because they were what the buying public wanted (the big family 'six').

Then the market trend shifted, if you needed something to tow your boat, you bought an SUV, if not, you bought a smaller, cheaper to run car.

Both Holden and Ford are culpable in not recognising these trends earlier (although to be fair, they're trying to compete with the Territory and the Cruze), so the home market for their Falcodores started shrinking.

So, what do you do if your home market gets smaller? You export.
Only the trouble is that, whilst Australia is playing nicely and letting every man and his dog import cars here for either 0% or 5% tariff, no-one else is playing the same game. We have a free trade agreement with Thailand for example, which is where the majority of our imported small cars and pick ups (BT-50, Ranger, Colorado etc) are made, so they come here with zero import tariff.
Now you'd think that, what with the free trade agreement, we would be exporting cars to Thailand at 0% tariff too. Technically yes, but they imposed an 'environment' tax on cars with engines over 3 litres when the agreement was made, which made our cars prohibitively expensive, so we never bothered exporting. Only with the advent of the 2.7 diesel Territory has there been any significant export to Thailand and even that attracts a 50% tax.

So tariffs DO work at protecting manufacturing, Thailand's manufacturing is thriving.

Regardless of how good or otherwise you think the local car products are (and I will reiterate that I think the local management are hugely culpable in their apparent willingness to let the Falcodores die off without any radical re-think to either model), their success or otherwise isn't simply a result of how good they are selling in the home market because we as an exporting nation are fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

[JDNSW]

The whole argument comes back to protection/free trade, same argument we saw here over a hundred years ago.

Apart from the point mentioned above that protection rarely, if ever, has solely the intended effect, it should be kept in mind that while there are some advantages in artificially maintaining a manufacturing industry, there are also disadvantages. And manufacturing only imploys a small fraction of the workforce, where the disadvantages (either cost of living if tariffs or taxes if subsidies) apply to the whole population. Most informed voters will vote against protection unless they are employed in a protected industry.

Car manufacturing has probably never been really justified in Australia. For example, Ford (and Holden) started after the import of car bodies was banned in WW1 to allow shipping to be used for materials needed for the war effort. Full scale manufacture was started after WW2 to keep employed the manufacturing skills and facilities that had been set up by necessity during the war when Australia was substantially cut off from its traditional sources of supply for all sorts of manufactured goods from electronics to munitions.

This shift was encouraged by restrictive policies, major subsidies and later protection, that evolved into large scale protection policies in the fifties, for virtually everything from agriculture to mining to manufacturing.

John

[Chucaro]

I just wonder Dave if these cases are the ones that the "grass is greener on the other side of the road"?
EU is in big trouble now and racial problems are serious.
I can have Belgian passport if I like and with a french name and some connections will be reasonable easy to emigrate there but still believing that Australia is the country to live.

[Dougal]

The diesel Territory took about 4 years too long to get to market. They have ecoboost diesel Falcons & Terri's on test but again it's taken them too long to get to market.

Ecoboost are all petrol. There are no diesel falcons. Or do you know something we don't?


I remember the GM of Ford Australia being asked a few years ago why they had no diesels in the range, he commented that you'd be mad to go for diesel when LPG is so cheap in Australia.

Problem right there. Cheap fuel should never rule out more efficient (diesel) engines). Especially if you ever want to export anything.
Which is why Holden's diesel cars are all imported from Korea.

[gromit]

Ecoboost are all petrol. There are no diesel falcons. Or do you know something we don't?


There has been discussion for some time on Forums that smaller 4 cylinder diesel engines were in test mule Falcons & Territorys.
Maybe they were from the Mondeo.
My bad, I was under the impression that EcoBoost was the diesel version.

Colin

[Davo]

yep

client of mine is an international leasing agent.. he tells me I can get a shop in a nice spot in the middle of paris cheaper per sq metre than I can in down town morayfield..

something is way out of kilter..

a mate just bought a large estate in france for less than he sold his house in down town Caboolture for..

he is moving over next month with enough money in tow to take his beloved mg with him..

makes you wonder

That's the funniest thing - I worked that out for myself a couple of years ago when I stumbled across a house for sale in France and worked out a comparison. It was something like a fully renovated stone house in a village and it was around the AUD$500,000 mark or so - about half the equivalent of here. I couldn't believe that things had gotten to the point where a dull, badly-designed house in boring Perth was worth more than that, but it is.

[isuzurover]

and that my friend is what all the anti tariff / protection / subsidy guys don't want to get their heads around..

it aint about protecting fat kids

Explain to us how tarrifs will help do anything other than make cars more expensive in AU???? (Bearing in mind they are already more expensive than most other countries).

[Chucaro]

Several studies have shown that tariffs cause reduced economic growth to the country imposing them but there is a place for tariffs and one of them is to stop dumping by foreign companies or governments.
I am also in favor to impose tariffs were the manufacturing practices are used by the exporting country are against our ethical values like cheap labour done by children or by workers under inhuman conditions.
Globalization without equal ethical and moral working conditions between countries does not do any justice to those countries were these working condition are served well.

[mikehzz]

I was in Germany in a taxi. It was my wife's model VW Passat that she paid $50k for in Australia. It cost 17k euros there (a few years ago now).

[Chucaro]

The post of this Chinese worker summarize what we have to do here to compete with them.


“Work harder than a donkey;
eat food worse than pig’s feed;
wake up earlier than a rooster;
finish work later than a prostitute;
behave like a good grandchild;
try to look better than anyone else;
age five years faster than anyone else”

[incisor]

Explain to us how tarrifs will help do anything other than make cars more expensive in AU???? (Bearing in mind they are already more expensive than most other countries).

work out for your self ...

is pretty basic stuff..

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=60853&stc=1&d=1369372992

[OffTrack]

The post of this Chinese worker summarize what we have to do here to compete with them.


“Work harder than a donkey;
eat food worse than pig’s feed;
wake up earlier than a rooster;
finish work later than a prostitute;
behave like a good grandchild;
try to look better than anyone else;
age five years faster than anyone else”

Or you can work smarter, designing and selling products people around the world are willing to buy. I don't see any of the major European manufacturers building cars in European plants paying workers third world wages.

[Chucaro]

Or you can work smarter, designing and selling products people around the world are willing to buy. I don't see any of the major European manufacturers building cars in European plants paying workers third world wages.

.......but, Germans subsidize their car industry to the tune of about $US95 per capita and the $US260 the Americans pay per head. Australia only $AUD18 per capita.
We work smarter for sure, how much money in grants per capita we give to Ralph Sarich and at the end Sarich ultimately transformed Oribtal into a billion-dollar company on the New York Stock Exchange. Orbital products are now utilised by one of China’s major auto firms.
Soon we are going to import Chinese cars with orbital engines developed with you and the rest of the Australians money.
If, and do not dream about it, help with grants the development of smart cars or any other revolutionary product you can bet that our creativity will end overseas for the benefit of another country or multinational corporation.
I said it again, until we do not have politicians with balls we are going to be robed of our intellectual and material assets.
Perhaps what Inc try to say is that tariffs should be applied to products from countries that do not "play a fair trade game" and I, a person agains globalization in the current from tend to agree with him.

[EchiDna]

so pray tell how many of you buy your indonesian import coke at coles for 1/3 the price of the aussie made equivalent? same product, shipped further.

Aussie wages are the killer here, nothing else. As for the german comparison, their auto industry is massively more automated than it is in oz - less people make more cars.

falcons and commodores are bloated dinosaurs of cars, younger drivers simply do not want them and the rest of the world has moved on to smaller, faster, more efficient cars or taller "suv's".

Already having a 110, my second car would never be anything bigger than a hot hatch that I can drive hard and still be in front of the economy figures for a falcon.

[isuzurover]

work out for your self ...

is pretty basic stuff..

...

Well if it is basic you should be able to explain it??? There are several well written posts (e.g. by JD) which explain why tarrifs will not help.

To me it seems pretty simple and goes llike this:
AU government imposes import tarrifs on imported vehicles.
Imported vehicles go up in price.
Australians keep buying the same cars they are buying, just pay more for them.
Ford still decides to shut down manufacturing.

The US retaliates by increasing tarrifs on imported holdens.

[101RRS]

Look to Aust motoring history - when we had tarriffs we made crap cars. Without tarriffs we made world quality vehicles - albiet more lately not the type the public wanted.

Garry

[sheerluck]

Look to Aust motoring history - when we had tarriffs we made crap cars. Without tarriffs we made world quality vehicles - albiet more lately not the type the public wanted.

Garry

Part of the problem is that there isn't the market locally to make the products that people actually want to buy. There are so many different niches now, that it would be impossible to cater for all of them in the manufacturing cabability in the country.

The market and people's tastes have changed enormously in the last 15-20 years, and with a comparatively small manufacturing facility, the local manufacturers have to back a horse, so to speak. A car plant is not something that can be chopped and changed at a moment's notice.

My particular example is probably quite typical, a small(ish) economical car for commuting and a larger 4x4 for the weekend getaways with room to chuck a large dog in the boot.

When I was buying, neither Ford nor Holden sold what I was looking for.

[OffTrack]

.......but, Germans subsidize their car industry to the tune of about $US95 per capita and the $US260 the Americans pay per head. Australia only $AUD18 per capita.
We work smarter for sure, how much money in grants per capita we give to Ralph Sarich and at the end Sarich ultimately transformed Oribtal into a billion-dollar company on the New York Stock Exchange. Orbital products are now utilised by one of China’s major auto firms.
Soon we are going to import Chinese cars with orbital engines developed with you and the rest of the Australians money.
If, and do not dream about it, help with grants the development of smart cars or any other revolutionary product you can bet that our creativity will end overseas for the benefit of another country or multinational corporation.
I said it again, until we do not have politicians with balls we are going to be robed of our intellectual and material assets.
Perhaps what Inc try to say is that tariffs should be applied to products from countries that do not "play a fair trade game" and I, a person agains globalization in the current from tend to agree with him.

Sarich was smart. Orbital was licensing the IP to companies to use in their own designs not building engines. The Chinese bough the rights to use Sarich/Orbital's knowledge about the orbital engine concept, not a tangible product.

We live in a global economy that is driven by exchange of ideas and knowledge. If you are just focusing on the tangible products that result from those ideas and knowledge you've already lost the game.

[DieselDan]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd resurrect this old one.
It's been interesting, for me at least, to read back through people's various thoughts and comments on the subject, but three years on from when this thread was started, tomorrow sees the day when local Ford production stops.

Effort has been made to redistribute jobs to other sites/functions and lots of careers days have been held for Ford workers and the suppliers, but it's still a sad day for many of the workers who will face an uncertain future after tomorrow and my thoughts are with them.

It'll be a somber day at work tomorrow :(

[shanegtr]

When I first heard the news all those years ago I was sad that we where going to loose the manufacturing of fords (acutally all vehicles in Oz) even thou I wasnt really a ford fan. Well since then I've become a Ford Falcon owner (but not for much longer - if it was a manual V8 then I'd consider keeping it). So Im still sad to see Ford go and its a shame more people didnt keep on using the big aussie built cars - as far as Im concerned they really do eat up the long distance cruising and are not as bad on the go juice as everyone makes out. I drove my Falcon to Perth (1400km drive from home for my) and it was super comfy too for the whole drive

[ramblingboy42]

I became a Ford owner too....but is it really a Ford?

the engine/transmission is ford....like a defender

the rest of it is really just a typical Thailand built motor vehicle.

and really.....it's good.....Holden or Ford in Australia could never build a vehicle as cost free and reliable as this one has been.

....and I guess that's the end.

[Pickles2]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd resurrect this old one.
It's been interesting, for me at least, to read back through people's various thoughts and comments on the subject, but three years on from when this thread was started, tomorrow sees the day when local Ford production stops.

Effort has been made to redistribute jobs to other sites/functions and lots of careers days have been held for Ford workers and the suppliers, but it's still a sad day for many of the workers who will face an uncertain future after tomorrow and my thoughts are with them.

It'll be a somber day at work tomorrow :(
Yes indeed, "Sad Day" & "Uncertain Future" for the workers.
Whilst I was never made redundant myself, at one stage of my career, some of my colleagues were, and the thought of it, was not pleasant.
So yes, I shall be thinking of the workers today.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Yes its sad and unnecessary.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoClax]

Sad and unnecessary and extremely damaging to our country as a whole. Car industries are such a massively important part of the culture and economy of any developed prosperous country. It goes way beyond just bolting some bits together. There is innovation and training and employment and economic benefit and knowledge and, and, and... It's almost endless.

I work in Engineering at Ford and have done so for some time. I've also worked at Holden and others locally. I spent part of my career knee deep in production at Broadmeadows and know the plant well. I'm working from home today. I just can't bring myself to be on site when they shutter the place. My job is secure. Our Engineering is busier than ever and we are all flat out defining, developing, shaping, engineering multiple products for the blue oval globally. We are regarded as the best in the world for this and our track record stands. However I fear this will be eroded over time now as some of the passion wanes and new engineers come in without that grounding. Not manufacturing is a massive blow and something that will have huge longer term consequences.

ARB specifically manufacture locally for many good reasons and insist that their Engineering dept is immersed in and interacts heavily with the production area to ensure that clever, efficient, robust, well-rounded products continue to be made. Almost impossible to do this in a bubble. And the true cost goes way deeper than a simple piece price for an item.

My thoughts go out to those leaving the plant for the last time today. And my thanks for what they've done. This is a very sad day for what this country has done to itself and they way we've allowed and encouraged the rest of the world to flood our market unhindered whilst heavily restricting and protecting their own. Thailand must be laughing their heads off at our stupidity. Level playing field? Free trade? Fantasy.

Sent from my SM-G930F using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoClax]

The return on investment for every dollar the government has invested in supporting the local industry (whilst cutting it off at the knees and removing all protections, etc that still apply in other countries) is in the order of 30:1. That's $30 back for every $1 spent. Not a typo. Most businesses are happy approaching a healthy 10% return on investment, how does 3000% stack up to that...

Want to compare that to the billions sunk into the financial sector, or mining...? What sort of return do we get on that?

I absolutely loathe hearing about how all this taxpayer money has been 'wasted' on this industry. If getting a thirty-fold return is 'wasting' then I am obviously out-of-step with the world.

Yeah, I am a bit tired and emotional about it.

[DiscoMick]

Nice summary of Ford history here:

Ford Australia ceases production: Timeline of the company's decades-long history in the country - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-07/timeline-ford-australia-ceases-production/7911742)

Interesting to note that Australia only got a vehicle manufacturing industry because in 1917 Prime Minister Billy Hughes banned imports of luxury goods, meaning car bodies had to be made here.
Thailand only has a car industry because it slapped import tariffs of more than 400% from memory on cars brought into the country.
There's no doubt we could make high quality popular cars at competitive prices here, and export them, but we just don't seem to have the guts to commit to making it happen any more.
If this thread was in Current Affairs where political comment is allowed I could say more about that.
A very sad day.

[PAT303]

I like to compare Land Rover with Fud and 'olden. All three sold vehicles no one wanted, all three went broke, all three were government subsidised. One decided to reinvest in new models,new factories,kicked out the unions,went seriously into debt to make it all happen and 20 years later is now one of the most profitable vehicle manufacturers there is.The same manufacturer exports all over the world,doesn't use high wages and a strong currency get in the way of doing so,nor as an excuse for failure,is a world leader in production technique's such as the manufacture of alloy body shells in house,the only one who can at present and by hard work and commitment has built a strong loyal following in every market it sells in.The other two make the same vehicles they made 20 years ago for a market that ceased to exists 30 years ago and wonder why they went from having over 50% of the market to nothing today,no prizes for picking the which is which. Pat

[DiscoMick]

Yes they certainly made the wrong vehicles. If they could design a world class vehicle like the Ranger then it shows they knew what the market needed. If the Focus and the Ranger were being built here then maybe they would be profitable.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoClax]

I hear what you are saying Pat, but I think that's both simplistic and biased. I'll throw the bias the other way and expand a bit for balance...

One of those three got bailed out and 'fixed' (by the parent of one of the others) and operates from an extremely protected base and builds solely SUVs which is the major growth segment while all other segments shrink globally. The other two operate from the most diverse market on earth with zero protection. Only one of those two makes an SUV - one that redefined the segment and still sells strongly to this day despite being yesterday's news now. It was benchmarked against the BMW X5 originally and is still more refined than it. The BMW is a high-tech chaff-cutter in comparison.

Comparing a Holden or Ford from 20 years ago to a modern one is like comparing a series with a current Rangie. An EF Falcon is not similar to an FG-X Falcon. A VS Commodore does not compare favourably to a VF-II Commodore.

I am impressed as hell with the current Land Rover line up. Fantastic cars, well made, and well executed. I have driven most of them and they rate very highly and have a brilliant character to them. My next purchase will almost definitely be a RRS. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the local stuff. And you forgot to mention the other one that still engineers and builds here and makes extremely good products... here. And they also tune to local conditions which is why the suspension works on any surface, the headlights actually illuminate the road, and all can be punished through the outback and return... repeatedly. Because that's what we do here.

Think of how far LR has come in the last decade, let alone two and you'll find similar improvements at Holden, Ford and Toyota for local variants.

[PAT303]

I don't think I'm biased at all, Ford and Holden have done nothing,and I mean absolutely nothing in regards to innovation vehicle wise whether it's design,manufacture,materials nothing.You make the comparison from the RRC to the L405 and think the Ford and Holden are no different,well the two Australian vehicles have cast iron engines and gearbox's only a generation or two above the RRC and are still made from pressed mild steel sheet spot welded together.The L405 uses graphite composite blocks with the most modern gearbox's ZF makes wrapped up in hydra formed alloy bodies for a start.I'd like you to follow me through the outback in a Holden or Ford,can take the punishment can they?,suspension that works?,trying hard not to laugh mate seriously,they are made from the cheapest parts both makers can acquire. Pat

[DiscoMick]

The US used incentives to attract and support car plants at the same time as we in Australia were slashing support for the vehicle industry. The results were predictable.

US used foreign investment to develop a new car industry, a lesson Australia hasn't learned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-06/australia-hasnt-learned-us-car-industry-lessons/7898378)

[grey_ghost]

This is certainly an interesting topic, here's my 2c worth...

* It's sad that a number of Australian workers will be un-employed as a result of Ford, Holden and Toyota closing their doors.
* At the end of the day people just aren't buying enough sedans (Falcons, Commodores).
* If the demand was there AND the price was right, then I think that Ford/Holden would still make the cars.
* Ford/Holden/Toyota (Mitsubishi and Nissan) made the decision that the Australian divisions just aren't profitable enough.

One could argue that Land Rover are lucky because they are in a growing market (SUVs).
One could also argue that they build great cars -after all if they built crap people wouldn't buy them.
One could also say "look at what happened to Rover Cars - they simply didn't make a product that people wanted to buy".

I have a few theories as to why SUV's are becoming more popular..
* The roads are littered with speed cameras.
* Speeding fines / demerit points are high
* "Speed Kills"
* People want a "safer" car (read: big and heavy with a good view)
* People want to travel this great land of ours
* The roads are so crowded

I think that some people buy SUVs because you can't enjoy a sportscar anymore, but with an SUV it is multi-purpose so you can use it as a daily and "get-away" on the weekends... You can't do that with a normal sedan.

Yes I have owned sports cars, sedans and hatches. Yes I have been involved in motor sport.

Jut my 2 cents worth! :angel:

[jon3950]

It's an interesting comparison Pat. One advantage Land Rover have had is access to the EU which has meant they effectively have a very large domestic market. Britons also contribute approx $30 per capita per annum to the car industry to our $18.

These conditions also meant Honda, Nissan and Toyota set up manufacturing in the UK as their way in to Europe, so the industry produces about 1.6 million cars annually compared to around 200,000 here. This has also benefited JLR through economies of scale. Despite their best attempts at killing it in the 70s and 80s, the British government does now at least seem to recognise the importance of the car industry.

I think that Land Rover were lucky to be bundled up with Jaguar when Ford sold them as it made them viable as a stand alone manufacturer. Then they had the fortune to be purchased by Tata who believed in the marque and invested significantly at a time when other manufacturers were cutting back.

As a company they didn't squander this luck. They have produced some truly innovative vehicles that, despite the criticism they get on here, have been what the market wanted.

I suspect they may not have had the same success had they remained part of Ford. In all likelihood after the GFC they too would have been reduced to an engineering department designing badge-engineered Fords to be manufactured in South America or Asia.

It will be interesting to see what effect Brexit will have on JLR. It can't be good for them.

Cheers,
Jon

[shanegtr]

One could argue that Land Rover are lucky because they are in a growing market (SUVs).
One could also argue that they build great cars -after all if they built crap people wouldn't buy them.


Im sure a toyota owner would argue that last point :)

[DiscoClax]

OK, I'm comparing PASSENGER cars here. Not purpose built 4WDs against road cars. In the Outback you see 4WDs and.... Commodores and Falcons. Period. I've done sign-off trips out to Camerons Corner (~15 years ago) in bog-stock Falcons. It's part of the standard sign-off for all local product (just like we actually test our bullbars in real crash tests into full size/weight Kangaroo dummies). Yeah I've done that testing and it's really not fun. In short, we test and design cars to survive Australia, not just driving down a motorway in Germany.

Lack of innovation? Given the constraints driven by very low volume, negligible support, etc I think you'll find that's not entirely accurate.

The current Commodore is festooned with the latest tech. Something we couldn't do on Falcon as there was no justification for the massive cost on a short-term platform.

Ford locally ran the same ZF 6-speed as LR through this period. LR have only just stepped up to the newer 8HP, not something feasible if you are killing the platform imminently, per Falcon. LR introduced the ZF 6HP in the same year as Falcon so there's no argument there.

Research the LPi system. That's not done anywhere else in the world and we pioneered it and brought it to production. And it makes an LPG engine produce more power and torque that the petrol equivalent with great fuel economy.

Iron engines? The Commodore engines have been all-alloy for well over a decade. Ford's V8 is all-alloy and the 'venerable' six is only iron-blocked. Most high-power density engines today have gone back to being iron blocked. Lion V6/V8? Iron. Iron is stronger and has better NVH. Alloy is good for fast warm-up for emissions.

I suspect strongly that you have not driven a Falcon, Territory, Commodore (or even Camry/Aurion) built in the last 5-10 years over any distance objectively. If you had I doubt you would be referring to these vehicles in light of 1980-1990 thinking. It would also make you typical of much of the buying public that perceive the local stuff as inferior, because we once were... And there's a big part of the problem.

Anyway, I'm clearly flogging a dead horse here and we'll just have to agree to disagree. But please do not denigrate the extraordinary work that local engineers have done.

Oh, and the Ranger and Everest are entirely engineered here. It's 'our' platform and we engineer it to go to every corner of the world and it's been a massive success everywhere.

[DiscoMick]

Agreed.
What a pity Ford didn't commit to build the Ranger and Everest here for export, but I'm sure that's a very complicated story.

[jon3950]

I certainly don't want to denigrate the work of the local engineers and appreciate the constraints you have to work under. Regardless of quality it would seem though that Falcon and Commodore weren't the right vehicles to be making. It is a pity that Ranger and Everest couldn't have been made here instead - its clearly a far more relevant product.

But would that have been enough to save the industry? It may have been enough for Ford but Holden and Toyota would need to do similar. One manufacturer alone would never be viable. There have been many attempts to build an export business. Why have all the plans failed?

For what it's worth, I've had no interest in owning a locally made car since the WB ute. However I am very sorry to see the local industry go and do think it's bad for the country.

Cheers,
Jon

[DieselDan]

I don't think I'm biased at all, Ford and Holden have done nothing,and I mean absolutely nothing in regards to innovation vehicle wise whether it's design,manufacture,materials nothing.You make the comparison from the RRC to the L405 and think the Ford and Holden are no different,well the two Australian vehicles have cast iron engines and gearbox's only a generation or two above the RRC and are still made from pressed mild steel sheet spot welded together.The L405 uses graphite composite blocks with the most modern gearbox's ZF makes wrapped up in hydra formed alloy bodies for a start.I'd like you to follow me through the outback in a Holden or Ford,can take the punishment can they?,suspension that works?,trying hard not to laugh mate seriously,they are made from the cheapest parts both makers can acquire. Pat

Hmmmm, not sure where to start with this, however DiscoClax has provided a response which covers most of it!

When I resurrected this thread, I was hoping that this wouldn't degenerate into more of 'local cars are crap, good riddance', there's been 8 previous pages of that, but yours is as valid an opinion as anyone's.

Like DiscoClax, I am an engineer at Ford who has, according to you, contributed absolutely nothing to further the development of the motor industry. However myself, along with DiscoClax and over a thousand other engineers here have designed, engineered and developed many vehicles for overseas markets and as he points out, industry innovations for the local market. Our 'pride and joy' at the moment is currently the success of the Ranger and Everest.

I agree that it is a shame that we, as an engineering workforce, haven't been able to showcase the ability of local engineering with more locally made, innovative products. But that's all a bit of a moot point now.

By the way, myself and many others here have also been engineers at Land Rover. Does that now make your impression of Land Rover worse......?

[Pickles2]

There is a program covering this on Ch 2 tonight in Melbourne.
I ain't denigrating anyone, I've been into cars all my life, knew many people involved, particularly Holden, over the years, I know what an exciting place Fishermans bend was, and how enthusiastic all the "Holden Workers" were.
Reasons for failure?....ain't going there,..everyone's got a position on that, go to google,& ya'll see hundreds,....all different.
But what I believe was needed was a good export program for our cars, I know Holden tried very hard, for a long time, but couldn't do it.
Now, as we have a "Ford Man" here, perhaps you can answer me. IMHO, the Ford Territory was a BRILLIANT vehicle, totally Aussie designed, & nothing like it anywhere else in the World,.....SO,...why wasn't it exported?
Pickles.

[PAT303]

Hmmmm, not sure where to start with this, however DiscoClax has provided a response which covers most of it!

When I resurrected this thread, I was hoping that this wouldn't degenerate into more of 'local cars are crap, good riddance', there's been 8 previous pages of that, but yours is as valid an opinion as anyone's.

Like DiscoClax, I am an engineer at Ford who has, according to you, contributed absolutely nothing to further the development of the motor industry. However myself, along with DiscoClax and over a thousand other engineers here have designed, engineered and developed many vehicles for overseas markets and as he points out, industry innovations for the local market. Our 'pride and joy' at the moment is currently the success of the Ranger and Everest.

I agree that it is a shame that we, as an engineering workforce, haven't been able to showcase the ability of local engineering with more locally made, innovative products. But that's all a bit of a moot point now.

By the way, myself and many others here have also been engineers at Land Rover. Does that now make your impression of Land Rover worse......?

Mate I started as an apprentice in the car industry 29 odd years ago so your not the only one with experience in this area.Sorry to make to make this personal but for all your hard work,and I'm not calling your competency into question,you didn't move with the market so were left behind.Look at the Discovery,the D1 was a 90's vehicle,look at the D5,it's a 2016 vehicle,look at the difference 26 years of changing with the market makes and the success that goes with it.The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

[scarry]

The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

Yes, very sad situation,but it is not just the people employed at the car manufacturing plants,it is the massive knock on effect with all the other companies that also supplied services,parts,or whatever to these plants.

[DieselDan]

Mate I started as an apprentice in the car industry 29 odd years ago so your not the only one with experience in this area.Sorry to make to make this personal but for all your hard work,and I'm not calling your competency into question,you didn't move with the market so were left behind.Look at the Discovery,the D1 was a 90's vehicle,look at the D5,it's a 2016 vehicle,look at the difference 26 years of changing with the market makes and the success that goes with it.The thing I feel sorry about is the experienced people manufacturing will loose like yourself and DiscoClax when the industry winds up. Pat

A D1 to D5 isn't changing with the market, it's making the same vehicle in the same category of vehicle, just newer. (Just like the Falcodore!!)
But is fortunate that the market it is in is expanding. Unlike the market for big saloon cars. If there was no market for a Disco, LR wouldn't make it.

Anyway, I understand what you're trying to say - the type of cars produced locally didn't change enough with the change in consumer demands. Attempts were made; SUV by Ford, small car by Holden and hybrids by Toyota but obviously to no avail.

The reasons for the closure of local production are many and have all been mentioned previously. Take your pick from any or all of:
Most competitive car market in the world; lowest gov't subsidies for car makers in the world; lowest import tariffs for foreign cars in the world; lack of export success; successively smaller market share/lack of diverse production.....

All of which leads to not making any money and it gets to the point where the company bigwigs pull the pin.

The likes of myself and Discoclax are lucky in that the local car companies, Ford especially, have essentially got 2 functions - design/engineering and production. Only the production is closing down (as sad as that is) but the design/engineering is staying and we'll be developing many new cars for here and overseas. It's just a shame that none of them will be built here.

[DiscoMick]

In the past local companies have built successful small to medium cars e.g. Laser, Gemini, Torana, Corolla and more recently Cruze and Camry. But the decision not to concentrate on improving the Cruze, or to build the Ranger and Everest here, or to design a new Territory, meant the locally built offerings missed the growth segments in the market, which are small cars and SUVs. Also, exports are essential, but not enough happened. Why not? Didn't foreign owned companies have enough commitment to making munufacturing successful here? It seems like a frustrating missed opportunity.
Also, we only got a vehicle building industry in the first place because past governments adopted protectionist policies, which history has shown are highly successful in causing companies to locate plants in the countries which make them welcome, but recent Australian governments reject industry protection, so we're putting ideology ahead of what works in practice. Is that a good idea - you decide.

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[DiscoClax]

Now, as we have a "Ford Man" here, perhaps you can answer me. IMHO, the Ford Territory was a BRILLIANT vehicle, totally Aussie designed, & nothing like it anywhere else in the World,.....SO,...why wasn't it exported?
Pickles.


It was. To Thailand. You know, that mob that makes a third of the cars sold in our market? That mob that we signed a free-trade agreement with to remove tariffs? That mob that immediately imposed massive penalties and taxes on any car coming from Australia so that a Territory suddenly cost the equivalent of $100k over there and was competing with prestige marques. And our government just rolled over and took it without a murmur. I refer you to my earlier comments on the mythical 'level playing field' that is supposed to exist. Every other country in the world protects their industries where we seem to be hell-bent on destroying ours and relying on stuff dug out of the ground.

The Territory was also exported to South Africa where it sold in relatively low but solid numbers consistently for years and years. Tickford/Prodrive did the post-production tweaks for those units (specific local content changes) and there was a solid stream going through. But that government didn't shaft us, so that made it feasible.

There's no doubt the market moved away from passenger cars, and still is, and that's what we traditionally made. Attempts were made to diversify but the other global players effectively made that infeasible by the time these options were seriously considered. The 1-tonner and SUV market has exploded and everyone wants a piece. When Bentley and Porsche are making SUVs you can see where the market is at. Anyway, would have, should have, could have. It's all moot now. And we are all the poorer for it.

[Pickles2]

It was. To Thailand. You know, that mob that makes a third of the cars sold in our market? That mob that we signed a free-trade agreement with to remove tariffs? That mob that immediately imposed massive penalties and taxes on any car coming from Australia so that a Territory suddenly cost the equivalent of $100k over there and was competing with prestige marques. And our government just rolled over and took it without a murmur. I refer you to my earlier comments on the mythical 'level playing field' that is supposed to exist. Every other country in the world protects their industries where we seem to be hell-bent on destroying ours and relying on stuff dug out of the ground.

The Territory was also exported to South Africa where it sold in relatively low but solid numbers consistently for years and years. Tickford/Prodrive did the post-production tweaks for those units (specific local content changes) and there was a solid stream going through. But that government didn't shaft us, so that made it feasible.

There's no doubt the market moved away from passenger cars, and still is, and that's what we traditionally made. Attempts were made to diversify but the other global players effectively made that infeasible by the time these options were seriously considered. The 1-tonner and SUV market has exploded and everyone wants a piece. When Bentley and Porsche are making SUVs you can see where the market is at. Anyway, would have, should have, could have. It's all moot now. And we are all the poorer for it.
The markets that you mention are relatively small.......the market I'm speaking of is the U.S.A.....why didn't it go there?...There is nothing like it there,....imho it would've done very well,...with one proviso, & I believe this is the most important aspect of ANY motor vehicle export program,.....the Parent Company, in this case, Ford (Dearborn?) have to want it, and they have to promote it, with their dealers, & with buyers,.....and if they don't want to do that, nothing will work.... that is why the Monaro/Pontiac program never worked as it could've,.....very little enthusiiasm from GM,..nothing wrong with the car, the build quality was heaps better than U.S. stuff at the time, according to reports I read. However, had this export program not eventuated in even the small numbers that it did, Monaro production in Aus would not have continued for as long as it did. I owned a couple myself,....magnificent cars.
IMHO, the demise of Ford & Holden are as much to do with the attitude of their head offices in the USA, as much as anything that went on here, beause they were controlling all of the big decisions.
Pickles.

[Tombie]

Simply - GM and Ford USA protected their domestic market so our exports weren't going to fly.

[JDNSW]

Or perhaps the problem is we have never had a successful Australian car industry. We have had a foreign car industry operating in Australia.

Perhaps a large part of the reason for this is that Australian culture and policies have never favoured anyone prepared to invest a lot of money on something that is high risk, which has always been the case with manufacturing in this country, even given good ideas and plans. Hence anyone with the sort of money needed will usually put it into something safe, such as houses.

Attempts to start a real Australian car industry have largely foundered on a lack of capital, and the tendency of governments to favour large foreign corporations with existing overseas manufacturing records.

John

[DiscoMick]

Yes, you need a government which is simply determined to do whatever it takes to ensure the industry is successful long-term. For example, Obama nationalised GM and Chrysler to save them from collapse, and later sold out when they were healthy. Could you imagine any Australian government nationalising our car industry to save it?

[boa]

OK, I'm comparing PASSENGER cars here. Not purpose built 4WDs against road cars. In the Outback you see 4WDs and.... Commodores and Falcons. Period. I've done sign-off trips out to Camerons Corner (~15 years ago) in bog-stock Falcons. It's part of the standard sign-off for all local product (just like we actually test our bullbars in real crash tests into full size/weight Kangaroo dummies). Yeah I've done that testing and it's really not fun. In short, we test and design cars to survive Australia, not just driving down a motorway in Germany.

Lack of innovation? Given the constraints driven by very low volume, negligible support, etc I think you'll find that's not entirely accurate.

The current Commodore is festooned with the latest tech. Something we couldn't do on Falcon as there was no justification for the massive cost on a short-term platform.

Ford locally ran the same ZF 6-speed as LR through this period. LR have only just stepped up to the newer 8HP, not something feasible if you are killing the platform imminently, per Falcon. LR introduced the ZF 6HP in the same year as Falcon so there's no argument there.

Research the LPi system. That's not done anywhere else in the world and we pioneered it and brought it to production. And it makes an LPG engine produce more power and torque that the petrol equivalent with great fuel economy.

Iron engines? The Commodore engines have been all-alloy for well over a decade. Ford's V8 is all-alloy and the 'venerable' six is only iron-blocked. Most high-power density engines today have gone back to being iron blocked. Lion V6/V8? Iron. Iron is stronger and has better NVH. Alloy is good for fast warm-up for emissions.

I suspect strongly that you have not driven a Falcon, Territory, Commodore (or even Camry/Aurion) built in the last 5-10 years over any distance objectively. If you had I doubt you would be referring to these vehicles in light of 1980-1990 thinking. It would also make you typical of much of the buying public that perceive the local stuff as inferior, because we once were... And there's a big part of the problem.

Anyway, I'm clearly flogging a dead horse here and we'll just have to agree to disagree. But please do not denigrate the extraordinary work that local engineers have done.

Oh, and the Ranger and Everest are entirely engineered here. It's 'our' platform and we engineer it to go to every corner of the world and it's been a massive success everywhere.


I left Fords 20 years age as a test driver and an assigned mechanic. I can say what is being said here is totally true. As stated we use to test our vehicles in proper outback conditions. I use to do two or three trips a year with engineers to all parts of the country. Dinner plain to Darwin in test vehicles. These vehicles were spot on. However the Marketing was not so good in my view. One of the worst tests we use to do was a 60Kmh straight on drive into a standard Kerb under brake lock up. The Falcon passed not a problem; we had hired a commodoreand did the same test. It bent at the A pillar it took a while for the in house team to fix it. We also did side by testing of vehicles, same conditions same test procedure the Falcon always was more durable. The test vehicles are set to maximum weight, as in Lead weights for 4 passenger's luggage etc. and where driven to the max. But yes markets have changed but you cannot say that Ford Australia was and will be a world leader in Design and engineering.
I have a video made in 1988 by myself and a few others from the Proving ground. Have no idea how to post it up, we made it as Ford Product Engineering had an open day for staff but we were too busy to host an open day, it was made during the testing of the EA falcon before public release.
I have kept in touch with people who still work there so I am familiar at this point in time.

[JDNSW]

Yes, you need a government which is simply determined to do whatever it takes to ensure the industry is successful long-term. For example, Obama nationalised GM and Chrysler to save them from collapse, and later sold out when they were healthy. Could you imagine any Australian government nationalising our car industry to save it?

No, mainly because it is not our car industry, as I commented. While a government could possibly weather nationalising an Australian owned industry, the consequences of nationalising an American owned industry would be disastrous. (Although worth noting that Chifley's plan to nationalise the Australian owned banking industry handed government on a platter to Menzies for almost a generation.)

John

[Tombie]

Yes, you need a government which is simply determined to do whatever it takes to ensure the industry is successful long-term. For example, Obama nationalised GM and Chrysler to save them from collapse, and later sold out when they were healthy. Could you imagine any Australian government nationalising our car industry to save it?



We couldn't do it. Costs would skyrocket..

One of the benefits of international brands operating here was many parts were shared, be it driveline or trim.

If an Aussie manufacturer had to make their own engine, all the switches, trim etc I would think it would prove very expensive.

[Pickles2]

Yes, you need a government which is simply determined to do whatever it takes to ensure the industry is successful long-term. For example, Obama nationalised GM and Chrysler to save them from collapse, and later sold out when they were healthy. Could you imagine any Australian government nationalising our car industry to save it?
Disco, you need to get off the "Govt" bit mate. (IMHO!)
There were MANY MANY outside (Australia) influences in what has happened, and some of them have been mentioned in this thread.
Pickles.

[BigJon]

We also did side by testing of vehicles, same conditions same test procedure the Falcon always was more durable.



That is an interesting observation. My experience as a mechanic leads me to believe the opposite.

[DiscoMick]

That is an interesting observation. My experience as a mechanic leads me to believe the opposite.

I remember when Falcons were preferred to Commodores as taxis because they were regarded as being more durable.

[DiscoMick]

Disco, you need to get off the "Govt" bit mate. (IMHO!)
There were MANY MANY outside (Australia) influences in what has happened, and some of them have been mentioned in this thread.
Pickles.
That's true, but it doesn't change the point that what happens in a country is largely determined by its government. For example, Thailand's government has built a huge auto industry with foreign-owned companies because it's policies attracted them to the country, which has become 'the Detroit of Asia'. That didn't happen by accident - it was planned. Australia had a similar opportunity and blew it.

[Pickles2]

That's true, but it doesn't change the point that what happens in a country is largely determined by its government. For example, Thailand's government has built a huge auto industry with foreign-owned companies because it's policies attracted them to the country, which has become 'the Detroit of Asia'. That didn't happen by accident - it was planned. Australia had a similar opportunity and blew it.
Nope.
A previous poster has said, & very truly, & an aspect I've never thought of, & I quote, "We've NEVER had our own car industry"'.......decisions have never really been made here, and for the last several years they most definitely have not.
But Disco, there's a million opinions aren't there mate!!
I just bought the latest edition of Wheels Magazine,....a large part of the magazine is devoted to Ford's closure, the roots of which would appear to have been decided many years ago,....you could check it out?
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Nope.
A previous poster has said, & very truly, & an aspect I've never thought of, & I quote, "We've NEVER had our own car industry"'.......decisions have never really been made here, and for the last several years they most definitely have not.
But Disco, there's a million opinions aren't there mate!!
I just bought the latest edition of Wheels Magazine,....a large part of the magazine is devoted to Ford's closure, the roots of which would appear to have been decided many years ago,....you could check it out?
Pickles.

Already have.

[Pickles2]

Already have.
No worries,..what did you think?
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Yeah interesting history. Some interesting people. Decisions made might have changed if our country had wanted it more, but we didn't.

[bob2s]

Last Ford(Falcon Sprint XR8) went to auction today and it was gavel down at $122000 !

[Tombie]

Just shows people are stupid!!!
Lump of metal.... $12k to build... looks just like the rest....

[DiscoClax]

Sorry... How much did the very last Defender go for again...? Someone refresh my memory on that.

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