Ex army Mack 6x6 trucks.

[Summiitt]

Hi guys, does anyone know what the 6wd mack trucks have been selling for? And roughly how many will be available and over what period of time..cheers.

[303gunner]

Here's a selection from the last auction, remember to add 16.6% to the prices for Buyer's Premium and GST:

$25,509 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0028-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

$22,409 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0029-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

$26,509 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0030-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

$23,909 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0032-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

$5,209 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0033-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

$6,709 (http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0034-5006257/transport-trucks-and-trailers/cargo-trailer-single-axle-500kg'redirect=0)

How many more will be sold? All of them!

[Summiitt]

Thanks for the info, I'm keen to pick one up in the next 6-8 months, are we talking 100 or 500 available? I have no idea how many of these macks the army are running.
Thanks once again for your help.

[Tank]

303gunner any idea what engine and gearbox these Macks are running, Regards Frank.

[303gunner]

303gunner any idea what engine and gearbox these Macks are running, Regards Frank.
Click on any of the price figures above, they are links to the auction listings and describe the vehicles in detail.

[Summiitt]

From what I can gather, they are running a 285hp Mack diesel, with a 6 speed crash box with selectable 6wd....very low horsepower but would probably climb a tree!

[303gunner]

Click on any of the price figures above, they are links to the auction listings and describe the vehicles in detail.
Engine type: Mack EM6-285 diesel
Transmission: Mack Maxitorque manual

THIS SITE (http://www.military-today.com/trucks/mack_mc3.htm) says there are/were a total of 925 Mack 6x6 trucks of all variants.

[Blknight.aus]

youd only want one for farm work, they are over mass on the front axle when empty.

its a 11l 6 pot 265HP turbo diesel with a tip tubine and water to air then air to air charge cooling pushing a 5 speed triple layshafted non syncro manual that kicks drive into a 2 speed transfer case with a power divider that then twists the front and rear prop shafts, the rear propshaft enters a power divider that then provides drive to the rear axle diffs.

Depending on which book you read the donk churns the crank around at between 1400 and 1650NM of torque at a laconical 12-1400RPM and the normal maximum road speed is 95KPH

Theres no drive bias left to right but all 3 crownwheels can be tied together to turn at the same speed.

Power divide is manually selectable but is automatically selected when the tcase is put into low range.


the army rates them at 10 T on the tray and they are often described as

"Noisey, slow, hot, hard to drive, uncomfortable, underpowered, overweight, maintenance intensive and ugly." which translates out of nacy boy into "What Chuck Norris would trasform into if he ever became a transformer"

It is essentially the giant brother of the proper shed class landrover. It goes from A-B regardless of terrain. It will go anywhere but it makes no concessions to those too soft to be able to make it go there without some gimmick to hold their hands.

[Tank]

Thanks for that, the motor is known as the 285 H.P. Coolpower, the body style is known as the Flintstone which was usually powered by a 235 H.P. with a 5 or 6 speed with a splitter.
I used to run interstate with a R686 285 Coolpower with a 12 speed overdrive and it would out pull 400hp cummins up Skyline every day 1600 ft/lb of torque at 1200rpm, all from only 11 litres, great truck, Regards Frank.
http://www.aulro.com/app/data/500/medium/SAVE0006x1.JPG[/img]

[Summiitt]

Thanks for the info, sounds perfect for what a want.

[ade30946x6]

I am considering buying a few too. Some issue I see include the more road going tyre pattern usually fitted to them, their weight limiting off road use in softer ground, winch not fitted as standard, slow road speed and the high prices they are bringing when GST and buyer premium is added. If there is a Vic auction, that would help us southern buyers, but none listed yet.

[Blknight.aus]

about 1/6th of the total fleet has a winch as standard, about the same fraction have a crane.

I dont recall ever seeing both the crane and the winch at the same time.

Of the dump trucks, about 1/3 have the winch

[101 Ron]

I did two different drivers courses on these things when they were first introduced.
They were new.
I was at one stage given a tanker and it was filled to 13tonnes and told to drive it from Sydney NSW to Horsham Vic via back roads.
They used tankers for drive training as it was easy to load them up with a test load.
They were not legal on road as a tanker to there max of 15 tonnes.
5 speed triple shaft main box constant mesh.
They were geared to do 93 kph max, but can do this all day.
Forget the 285 hp rating...........you put these things into top gear and no matter what the load the motor just pulls it as the tip turbine and turbo does it thing.( torque riser style motor)
I do not remember having to down gear change for hills unless I had to slow up for traffic and corners etc.
The gearbox /motor is excellent.
I never drove the things off road much.
When first taken into service issues were with everything being done by air.
Air throttle, air start etc.
Go though the bush a take out a small nylon air line and you will have a dead truck if you turn it off.
Air throttle required use of hand throttle off road as it was to sensitive.
The rear springs....camel back leafs were too stiff by a long way when first introduced, even when fully loaded.
troops were not allowed to be carried due to spinal complains.
The driver had a air seat.
Just as I was leaving the system the macks were getting air bag rear suspension conversion.
I do not know if all were converted or not.
The cabin was to small for two blokes. guns and personal gear.
I very much liked them.........big simple trucks.

[disco 3 door]

about 1/6th of the total fleet has a winch as standard, about the same fraction have a crane.

I dont recall ever seeing both the crane and the winch at the same time.

Of the dump trucks, about 1/3 have the winch

Don't under stand. If 1/6th of fleet had them doesn't it mean they were optional. Standard fitment would mean 100% would be fitted.

[Mick_Marsh]

Don't under stand. If 1/6th of fleet had them doesn't it mean they were optional. Standard fitment would mean 100% would be fitted.
Standard as opposed to retrofitted.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It's interesting the brown slip on these trucks says GVM 25.9 Tonne but max GVM under RMS heavy vehicle mass regs for a 6X4 (10 tyres) is 22.5 Tonnes leaving only 11.240 Tonne as payload almost instead of the manufacturers almost 15 Tonne payload.

You can do better payload with cheaper trucks and combinations.

youd only want one for farm work, they are over mass on the front axle when empty. I've heard that rumour before, however when I asked AFM about it they claim they are legal under the 6 Tonne limit and the brownslip on the vehicle's makes the same claim when they answer Yes to the Vehicle Dimensional Requirements.

So I remain confused and unconvinced.

[Summiitt]

I did two different drivers courses on these things when they were first introduced.
They were new.
I was at one stage given a tanker and it was filled to 13tonnes and told to drive it from Sydney NSW to Horsham Vic via back roads.
They used tankers for drive training as it was easy to load them up with a test load.
They were not legal on road as a tanker to there max of 15 tonnes.
5 speed triple shaft main box constant mesh.
They were geared to do 93 kph max, but can do this all day.
Forget the 285 hp rating...........you put these things into top gear and no matter what the load the motor just pulls it as the tip turbine and turbo does it thing.( torque riser style motor)
I do not remember having to down gear change for hills unless I had to slow up for traffic and corners etc.
The gearbox /motor is excellent.
I never drove the things off road much.
When first taken into service issues were with everything being done by air.
Air throttle, air start etc.
Go though the bush a take out a small nylon air line and you will have a dead truck if you turn it off.
Air throttle required use of hand throttle off road as it was to sensitive.
The rear springs....camel back leafs were too stiff by a long way when first introduced, even when fully loaded.
troops were not allowed to be carried due to spinal complains.
The driver had a air seat.
Just as I was leaving the system the macks were getting air bag rear suspension conversion.
I do not know if all were converted or not.
The cabin was to small for two blokes. guns and personal gear.
I very much liked them.........big simple trucks.

Thanks for the info Ron, do you recall what the 6wd setup was? I am thinking that the front axle engages when you select low range, but the guy up at minto said that it was engaged via locking the power divider, but that doesn't make any sense as the power divider is for the rear axles, and you wouldnt always want to lock the front axle in as well as the power divider in at the same time..I don't think he knew what he was talking about..cheers for any info..

[Blknight.aus]

its a permanant 6wd

same concept as a landrover center diff

[Blknight.aus]

Don't under stand. If 1/6th of fleet had them doesn't it mean they were optional. Standard fitment would mean 100% would be fitted.

Standard as in came from the factory with it (these vehicles have a different NSN to a non wincher so are technically a standard) not something thats been retrofitted.

IF you were to buy a GS without a winch it would have an NSN of XX-XXX-XXXX

if you got the one with a winch it would be YY-YYY-YYYY.

fitting a winch to a GS still leaves that truck with the first NSN not the second.

[Summiitt]

So is there a diff lock in the transfer case as well?

[101 Ron]

I don't remember the exact set up for the 6x6, but I don't think they were constant 6x6 but with selectable front diff.
I don't remember what the power divider set up was, but they do have a two speed transfercase as you would normally expect.
I do know they were a very over spec , over built truck.

[Blknight.aus]

no need to worry about it, its up near the top of the thread...




kicks drive into a 2 speed transfer case with a power divider that then twists the front and rear prop shafts, the rear propshaft enters a power divider that then provides drive to the rear axle diffs.

Theres no drive bias left to right but all 3 crownwheels can be tied together to turn at the same speed.

Power divide is manually selectable but is automatically selected when the tcase is put into low range.

[ade30946x6]

They do not seem to have auctioned a winch model yet, or maybe I am missing the obvious?

[Blknight.aus]

the winch is buried in the guts,

SWMBO wont let me have a 6x6 mack so I havent followed them.

[Sprint]

the winch is buried in the guts,

SWMBO wont let me have a 6x6 mack so I havent followed them.

Permission | Define Permission at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/permission's=t)

and

Forgiveness | Define Forgiveness at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/forgiveness's=t)

[Bearman]

SWMBO wont let me have a 6x6 mack so I havent followed them.

I am not surprised, what would you do with it, for you it would be as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike. Although when you think about it you could cruise the warrego highway and terrorise the crap out of a few commodore jockeys.

[ade30946x6]

Midmount, like my accos, though every acco had a winch as far as I know, but generally there is a cable or rollers visible and would usually say so on the listing detail, but have note noted this yet.

[Summiitt]

None to my knowledge have come up with a winch, you can tell if it has a winch as there are roller fairleads near the left hand headlight on the bumper bar...I really don't want a winch as I'm tight for weight so I don't exceed the gvm...be nice to have thou!!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

They do not seem to have auctioned a winch model yet, or maybe I am missing the obvious?There were a few with winches last auction, basically all you see are the roller fairleads on the LHS of the radiator.

For our purposes the weight and payloads are the big issues. We would like to be able to use them to carry the armoured vehicles, but with the NSW weight restrictions on historic, we likely couldn't even carry the Saracens or Saladin and even the WWII half-tracks would be on the limit.

A winch or crane while at times useful, would further limit the payload. Have even thought about taking the guts out of the front axle driveline assembly just to reduce the weight.

Although we can pay for a lot of floating for $30,000.

[Blknight.aus]

I am not surprised, what would you do with it, for you it would be as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike. Although when you think about it you could cruise the warrego highway and terrorise the crap out of a few commodore jockeys.

put all my shed tools in a cut down 16 Ft ISO on the back of a crane model, grab one of the 20T plant trailers and set her business up in the back of a cut down ISO on top of that and go do what me and SWMBO do out of the back of landrovers anyway.

and given the run I had on wednesday..... 3 trips up to caboolture and back in a disco hauling a car trailer, you'd've thought I'd've been the slowest thing on the road but nope.. every time I got bunched behind a block of traffic doing 85kph 3 wide, in a mack Id have just hit the right lane, high beam and lent on the air horn...

[Bearman]

I suppose a snow plough or a grader blade on the front would make it even better, one hit of the air horn for warning and then put the foot down:twisted:

[Sprint]

I know a few of the non operational macks that have sold have had the fairlead on the left hand front.....

[Sprint]

Just a thought..... Are the macks able to be road registered? I was under the impression that thier front axle weight is too heavy.....

[Blknight.aus]

yes but you have to get the exemption renewed every 12 months.

and as for overweight.

the civvy spec is for 20t on the tray, the military is 10T.....

which is why we put 13t APC's on top of them.

[Summiitt]

20t on the tray? That doesn't make sense, maximum legal payload on these trucks I've looked at is 11.7 ton.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is why I get confused.

RTA Max GTM for a 2 + 4 + 4 is 22.5 Tonne (6T + 16.5T)
The Tare for the current tray without winch, crane, sides, rearseats, bows or tarp is 11.260 Tonne
That makes 11.240 Tonne max payload. (Civvy)

It would be worse for fully kitted trucks or those with winches or cranes.

[ade30946x6]

I am registering primary producer Victoria. Army payloads seem to be way understated.

[Blknight.aus]

20t on the tray? That doesn't make sense, maximum legal payload on these trucks I've looked at is 11.7 ton.

What its able to do and what its allowed to do are 2 different things.

[ade30946x6]

Expect the crane trucks do not have winches due to PTO used for the crane? Issues with some of this direct out of army gear can be oil burning due to lack of hard usage and parading around. Went past a convoy the other day near Puckapunyal and quite a few were very smokey. Clearly these Macks are not cheap or simple to fix like an Acco.

[ade30946x6]

I bought my first Acco 6x6 last time the army majorly disposed of them in the 80's. Still have it. Made a lot of money out of it in the early days and it is still as it left the army. Always intended to get a Mack to use on retiring the Acco, so I am keen, but reckon prices are a bit high currently. I know these things sink like the titanic in soft ground, so winch is useful.

[Mick_Marsh]

Would love one of the armoured ones. Somehow, I don't think they'll be sold to the public.

[disco 3 door]

yes but you have to get the exemption renewed every 12 months.

and as for overweight.

the civvy spec is for 20t on the tray, the military is 10T.....

which is why we put 13t APC's on top of them.

No civvy truck in 6x4 or 6x6 will be able to carry a payload of 20 tonne. To do this the tare weight of the vehicle would be 2.5 tonne. Also can anyone tell me the tare weight of the front axle.

[Blknight.aus]

remember the truck wasn't originally designed with Australian compliance in mind.....

or try this for a better example

the F88 is more than capapble of putting 30 rounds of 5.56 into a person at 30 m in 10 seconds. Its just not legal to do that.

or for a slightly less psycho version

the veyron can do 300Kph on the open road. Its just not legal to do that either.

[Mick_Marsh]

No civvy truck in 6x4 or 6x6 will be able to carry a payload of 20 tonne. To do this the tare weight of the vehicle would be 2.5 tonne. Also can anyone tell me the tare weight of the front axle.
Legally or physically? There is a difference.

[Summiitt]

Legally no, physically yes it's easily possible, but regardless of any weight laws, macks own gvm is 24.3 ton..no doubt the truck would operate with a higher gvm but it may not stop or go so well!! If any truck could handle a load these are it..totally over engineered. I have a western star truck that is rated to 120ton(GCM) but the drivetrain on these macks appears to be a lot more substantial..

[Lotz-A-Landies]

remember the truck wasn't originally designed with Australian compliance in mind.....
I'm getting more and more confused, the compliance plate on all the Macks suggest the GVM is 24340 kg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/603.jpg

Yet the blue slip says 25900 kg http://res3.graysonline.com/handlers/attachmenthandler.ashx't=sh&id=3624053&filename=NSW+Brown+Slip.pdf or has the GVM been upgraded since the airbag suspension was fitted?

[Blknight.aus]

Lets say I own an overseas company that makes trucks and I make a truck that can take 20T on the tray and weighs 12t. GVM 32T

Australian rules say that the class of truck I'm building has a maximum GVM of 25T if I want to road register it and because of a combination of company reputation and this particular trucks capabilities and reliability the market will support this truck with a reduced payload.

As the manufacturer do I completely redesign the truck to comply with Australian rules OR do I just accept the free over engineering Its going to get by selling the same truck with a naffly little ally plate riveted on that says

Made to comply to australian standards, GVM 25T

I think (from memory) one of the tanker models has a maximum weight plate on it for full tanks that is higher than the GVM on the ADR plate so they were never able to fill the tanks and legally drive on the road.

I also recall some of the dumps that had the built in load measuring gear had 3 markings on it off road, on highway and design limit at 8 10 and something much higher in the vicinity of 15T

[beefy]

the slip is also wrong because they are fitted with back engines not cummins

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Dave

Thats whats so frustrating, the plate says one thing (24.340), the brown slip says another (25.900) and the RTA says a third (22.500), the Brown slip goes to the RTA and I drive down the road with the tare + payload at 25.900 believing what I bought from the Government.

Who is going to pay the fine and get the points when the mermaids book me for being overmass? I will!! :mad:

Diana

[Bigbjorn]

Lets say I own an overseas company that makes trucks and I make a truck that can take 20T on the tray and weighs 12t. GVM 32T

Australian rules say that the class of truck I'm building has a maximum GVM of 25T if I want to road register it and because of a combination of company reputation and this particular trucks capabilities and reliability the market will support this truck with a reduced payload.

As the manufacturer do I completely redesign the truck to comply with Australian rules OR do I just accept the free over engineering Its going to get by selling the same truck with a naffly little ally plate riveted on that says

Made to comply to australian standards, GVM 25T

I think (from memory) one of the tanker models has a maximum weight plate on it for full tanks that is higher than the GVM on the ADR plate so they were never able to fill the tanks and legally drive on the road.

I also recall some of the dumps that had the built in load measuring gear had 3 markings on it off road, on highway and design limit at 8 10 and something much higher in the vicinity of 15T

Dave, at White Motor Corp in the 1970's our average line haul prime mover had a manufacturer's GCM of 72 tonnes. Legal was around the low forties. The trucks were built this heavy because they had to be to withstand the constant slap-slap-slap-slap of our wonderful interstate highway network of the time. This was just in sealed main highway work. Don't ask what the road train operators went through in the dirt. Also we had customers who were not averse to putting on a bit of pudding. "Mickey Mouth" McDonald coming out of the old Byron Bay meatworks with 72 tonnes of pork aboard. "Turbo" Power with 100 tonnes of floor and hanging beef on one of the first b-doubles in Oz. Western men who didn't mind hanging a couple of extra trailers of cattle on out in the border country.

[Blknight.aus]

which is why so many of those R series macks are in such good condition structurally and driveline wise

which is why landrovers engineered in the same era are still doing their design spec roles to the end of their intended life and after another 3 life of type extension and are still doing those roles while their replacements are still getting past all the teething....


Some say overengineering, I call it a starting point.

[Summiitt]

Bottom line is that if you go over 22.5t GVM in NSW or the ACT, you will need to do some fast talking or expect a fine....if anyone is going to the auctions either this one or the next, I would be very great full if they could get a tray height off the ground for me..im hoping to grab one of these beasts to put a Cat D5g on the back of.. the weight will be border line depending on how much diesel I've got in the dozer...the overall height is the next hurdle..thanks in advance.

[Bigbjorn]

Bottom line is that if you go over 22.5t GVM in NSW or the ACT, you will need to do some fast talking or expect a fine....if anyone is going to the auctions either this one or the next, I would be very great full if they could get a tray height off the ground for me..im hoping to grab one of these beasts to put a Cat D5g on the back of.. the weight will be border line depending on how much diesel I've got in the dozer...the overall height is the next hurdle..thanks in advance.

Only if you get caught. That is why a smart operator doesn't overload just a little. You always put enough on to cover the potential fine and still show a profit.

What is the tare weight of one of those Macks with a substantial tray? What does a D5G weigh dressed with blade, ripper, and canopy? I have been out of the earthmoving sales caper for a while and don't know weights as well as I did. Equivalent Fiatallis FD9 was about 15 tons. Weight distribution will be the next problem. Can you get enough weight sufficiently forward to load the front axle, or is it already on the limit?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The tare of the Mack without drop sides, seats, bows, winch, crane or tarp is listed as 11260 kg leaving 11240 kg payload if you can believe the brownslip which is wrong in at least two other places the GVM and make of the engine.

The dump truck Brownslip lists tare as 11040 kg but are correct in GVM and engine make.

[Blknight.aus]

you can apply for exemption to the registered GVM if you can proove the truck is designed to handle it

It used to be common practice up north in cane country to permit some of the farming gear to go over road legal mass on the routes to the dumping points for getting it to the refinery but not transiting back or from farm to farm.

the GS in some units had exemption permits for carrying both types of apc which put the truck overweight.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It may work for the Army but I'm reluctant to try with the NSW RMS for a truck on Historic. They already limit the payload to 2/3 of the manufacturers specified limit.

If we could get Mack to certify the GVM at the 25 odd tonne under Historic we could possibly get the 9.5 Ton halftrack on the tray but not the 11.7 ton Saracen, because it would go over both the 22.5T axle limit and the 2/3 payload.

Maybe a lazy axle?

[Blknight.aus]

get the plant trailer...

put the halftrack on the mack, the sarecan on the trailer and its got its own loading ramps.

not seeing the problem.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Dave

The Army uses the Mack Fleetliners and the 20 tonne plant trailers when they move us to Kapooka.

The problem is that the 20 Ton plant trailers are 1992 so 9 years too young for historic.

The Freighter rough terrain dogs auctioned last month would have been good, they were manufacturer GTM 20500 kg but 18000 kg RMS. I think the tare is about 5000kg making manufacturer payload 15500 kg and 10333.4 kg on historic (5000 + 10333.4 = 15333.4 Kg) so the 1982 rough terrain trailers could carry the half-track on historic without breaching the 18000 kg RMS axle limit or the historic limit, but you would then have the lighter load of a 3500 kg ferret or 7500 kg Vixen/Striker on the tray of the truck. Not the way you should be loading.

You could almost stretch the friendship and put a saracen on a rough terrain and at 16700 kg still not breach the axle limit, but again the heavy load is on the trailer and not the truck.

As a club we can not justify the expense of full registration of a truck and trailer combination. But then again the $60K cost of a truck and trailer could pay for a lot of commercial floats. :(

It's a dysmal spiral, if we don't get the vehicles out members lose interest, but at several thousand dollars per event it costs too much to get out often. :BigCry:

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Dave

The Army uses the Mack Fleetliners and the 20 tonne plant trailers when they move us to Kapooka.

The problem is that the 20 Ton plant trailers are 1992 so 9 years too young for historic.

The Freighter rough terrain dogs auctioned last month would have been good, they were manufacturer GTM 20500 kg but 18000 kg RMS. I think the tare is about 5000kg making manufacturer payload 15500 kg and 10333.4 kg on historic (5000 + 10333.4 = 15333.4 Kg) so the 1982 rough terrain trailers could carry the half-track on historic without breaching the 18000 kg RMS axle limit or the historic limit, but you would then have the lighter load of a 3500 kg ferret or 7500 kg Vixen/Striker on the tray of the truck. Not the way you should be loading.

You could almost stretch the friendship and put a saracen on a rough terrain and at 16700 kg still not breach the axle limit, but again the heavy load is on the trailer and not the truck.

well if your going to get difficult about it just get one of the 20t tilt trays, they predate the plant trailer by a log shot

[Lotz-A-Landies]

well if your going to get difficult about it just get one of the 20t tilt trays, they predate the plant trailer by a log shot20T tilt trays? ex-Army ex-RAAF? tell me more?

Are they coming up for auction?

[THE BOOGER]

Ex army, we were using them to transport MRV scorpions in the early 80,s and they were not new then. Haven't seen any come up at the auctions at all unfortunately one would be ideal for what you need:)

[Blknight.aus]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/569.jpg

looks a lot like that but thats the 15t version

[THE BOOGER]

Its fun loading on them as the tray is not powered you drive until you reach the tilt point then come down with a bang:o first time can be a bit of a shock but fun:)

[Summiitt]

Only if you get caught. That is why a smart operator doesn't overload just a little. You always put enough on to cover the potential fine and still show a profit.

What is the tare weight of one of those Macks with a substantial tray? What does a D5G weigh dressed with blade, ripper, and canopy? I have been out of the earthmoving sales caper for a while and don't know weights as well as I did. Equivalent Fiatallis FD9 was about 15 tons. Weight distribution will be the next problem. Can you get enough weight sufficiently forward to load the front axle, or is it already on the limit?

G'day Brian, my Dozer weighs about 12.2 ton depending on fuel, I can't get a tare front axle weight on the trucks, if I'm a little over 22.5t it's probably not an issue as I want the truck to run into the areas that I can't get my tri axle float into...at the moment I either walk the machine in or if it's dry and not too steep, I run it in on a twin steer tri drive tilt tray, but coming out of the winter I have several jobs that require a 20km+walk in for the dozer to the start of the job site from where I can get the float, the tilt trays hate anything steep...so do their drivers;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Were they the ones used behind the F5 Inter wreckers? I'f yes 2 bravo has one but they weren't on the list of vehicles for disposal by DDA.


Its fun loading on them as the tray is not powered you drive until you reach the tilt point then come down with a bang:o first time can be a bit of a shock but fun:)I already do that on my tilt car float. In fact if your careful you can get the car and trailer on balance. Isn't that what you have to do with a tank and ridge?

BTW the pommy version of the tilt tray trailer is hydraulic powered.

[THE BOOGER]

Yep that's the one and yes embody had to do the knife edges :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

$24,496. with about half an hour to go. They sure pack on the dollars in the last hour don't they.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

$36,973 for a 30 year old truck (over $1,230 per year of age) is a pretty expensive truck! :o

Not something you'd want the have sitting around doing nothing except for the occasional trip.

[Summiitt]

I have to agree, that's a lot of money for a 30 yr old truck, when I consider I just missed out on a 435hp 2001 6WD MAN tipping tray top last week at auction...it sold for $60k but was a lot of truck for that money..I think these trucks are good value at around $20-22k..
It will be interesting to see if demand drops off over time for these trucks, any idea how long these auctions will go for?

[Mick_Marsh]

I think they will be stretched out over a few years. I heard about three.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have to agree, that's a lot of money for a 30 yr old truck, when I consider I just missed out on a 435hp 2001 6WD MAN tipping tray top last week at auction...it sold for $60k but was a lot of truck for that money..I think these trucks are good value at around $20-22k..
It will be interesting to see if demand drops off over time for these trucks, any idea how long these auctions will go for?The disposals are scheduled to run to 2020 and there were over 900 NIL Macks in the original purchase, so I'm guessing about 10 per month will go to auction.

That will be across all auction sites.

[U1700]

was just talking to a guy in VIC who bought one of the 6x6 Macks and he cant get rego for it without ripping out the front axle.

Its over the legal maximum axle load

any suggestions ?

The guys at Grays "are too busy to return his phone call at the moment"

The information they provide is " misleading "

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It's very misleading especially when they issue them with NSW Brown Slips.

It was suggested they were over limit some months ago and I guess has now been found correct.

Does he need the 6X6?

If not what about removing the crownwheel henisphere and front halfshafts?

It's interesting the brown slip on these trucks says GVM 25.9 Tonne but max GVM under RMS heavy vehicle mass regs for a 6X4 (10 tyres) is 22.5 Tonnes leaving only 11.240 Tonne as payload almost instead of the manufacturers almost 15 Tonne payload.

You can do better payload with cheaper trucks and combinations.

youd only want one for farm work, they are over mass on the front axle when empty.I've heard that rumour before, however when I asked AFM about it they claim they are legal under the 6 Tonne limit and the brownslip on the vehicle's makes the same claim when they answer Yes to the Vehicle Dimensional Requirements.

So I remain confused and unconvinced.

[Blknight.aus]

BTW the pommy version of the tilt tray trailer is hydraulic powered.

Thats the 20t version.

[Blknight.aus]

was just talking to a guy in VIC who bought one of the 6x6 Macks and he cant get rego for it without ripping out the front axle.

Its over the legal maximum axle load

any suggestions ?


he should have read the bit in this thread where it was said they were over legal front axle weight...

he needs a copy of the overmass axle exemption and then he needs to follow the bouncing ball and apply for himself.


It's very misleading especially when they issue them with NSW Brown Slips.

It was suggested they were over limit some months ago and I guess has now been found correct.

Does he need the 6X6?

If not what about removing the crownwheel henisphere and front halfshafts?

Not going to make enough difference. You might just get away with it if you converted it back to an I beam front end with spiders and discs to get the weight down.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not going to make enough difference. You might just get away with it if you converted it back to an I beam front end with spiders and discs to get the weight down.Or manufacturer a tubular front end out of steam tube or thick wall RHS, using the original swivels and hubs.

[Summiitt]

He's best bet would be to use an address in the act or nsw as for rego, the only info required is a tare weight, not an axle weight, however if he gets inspected by weights and measures, he will need to be prepared to pay the fine. As for gvms, manufactures gvms mean nothing as it's the states that dictate the gvms, nearly all truck manufacturers will state a higher gvm than is legally allowed.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

He's best bet would be to use an address in the act or nsw as for rego, the only info required is a tare weight, not an axle weight, however if he gets inspected by weights and measures, he will need to be prepared to pay the fine. As for gvms, manufactures gvms mean nothing as it's the states that dictate the gvms, nearly all truck manufacturers will state a higher gvm than is legally allowed.More than that, he'd have to watch out for the mermaids with their roadside scales.

Not sure if they have them in Victoria though.

Did he get the brownslip with the purchase? He would only have to drop into Albury RMS and do it there, but would need a NSW address.

This plate says it all about manufacturer Versus Australian road rules.

[Summiitt]

Do we know what the front axle weight is? I'm just going to take the risk on the axle weights when I get one...tray height is the big issue for me, if anyone is at the minto yard tomorrow a measurement would be great..

[Blknight.aus]

I think it might be something like

1498mm at the front and 1450 at the rear when the truck is operating at nominal air pressure under all conditions of load within the design limit.

and the dropped height is 1455 and 1333.


I know this in the same way as I know the front axle is overweight. and I know a couple of varients empty have a front axle weight of something that sounds like 7.2 T That might be because I was driving said varient on the way to pick up a load, a mermaid wanted to weigh it and my co driver was thicker than a hiclone salesman, outranked me and didnt understand the concept of "We're exempt"

[Hymie]

Hey Dave, the Tilt Bed Trailers, Freighter or Brentwood were the two we used, were initially rated at 15000Kg, the Brentwood was later downrated to 10500Kg in around '88 after the drawbars started bending and cracking, when they became known a Bentwoods...
Anyhow the Freighter kept its 15000Kg rating right to the end of its service life.
The big problems with them was the Air over Hydraulic brakes which ended up getting upgraded to all Air, but the trailer was so light if there was an air problem it was common to stuff 8 tyres and set the trailer on fire. Not a good look. One of my Corporals had a Crafty do just that and pull into a servo, (for some reson he thought it was a good idea), bu the time the driver Crafty had jumped out and run out with the fire extinguisher the Corp had swapped seats and bugged the whole shooting match out of the servo. They ended up losing the trailer. The load on the trailer? Another Freighter that had burnt out at Woommera. Happy days!

[Summiitt]

Thanks Dave, very useful info, so it looks a goer,according to my calcs, with my dozer on it I'm 50mm over height and about a half ton over weight on my steer...will just move the dozer back a little and I will be legal!!! And be ready to argue with my favourite mermaid..

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks Dave, very useful info, so it looks a goer,according to my calcs, with my dozer on it I'm 50mm over height and about a half ton over weight on my steer...will just move the dozer back a little and I will be legal!!! And be ready to argue with my favourite mermaid..

just make bloody sure you're actually right (and fit a silencer to the airbag dump for when he decides to measure you for height....

if and when you get one, more than happy to come and show you all the little tricks on the truck...

oh mod 1 remove the bleed tap on the start tank and blank it.

mod 2 fit a decent 24v compressor (or a small 240v unit with a genny) under the tray somewhere or in the space on the off side of the spare wheel and make up an outlet for fitting to the start tank. The magic number for a warm engine is 35, 55 for a stone cold unit. you can cross feed the brake tanks but if they are anything much under max pressure you'll get that sickening, "not quite mate" noise on start up on a cold engine.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

....
I know this in the same way as I know the front axle is overweight. and I know a couple of varients empty have a front axle weight of something that sounds like 7.2 T That might be because I was driving said varient on the way to pick up a load, a mermaid wanted to weigh it and my co driver was thicker than a hiclone salesman, outranked me and didnt understand the concept of "We're exempt":o

Its very hard to lose 1200kg from the front axle and still have some available for sharing the payload!

You most certainly need to get rid of the halfsafts, entire diff and carrier as well as the drive shaft to come close.

[Blknight.aus]

:o

Its very hard to lose 1200kg from the front axle and still have some available for sharing the payload!

You most certainly need to get rid of the halfsafts, entire diff and carrier as well as the drive shaft to come close.

only one varient weighs that much over, It might be the one that has the crane up in front of the tray, and the Aircon, and the over cab roof rack and the 4 jerry holder brackets down on the step on each side of the cab and the extra batteries under the crane hydraulics it might have been one of the show pony trucks from a certain basb in sydney...

of course the armoured up version... and a fully cesed up wrecker... not even going to guess at what it weighs in at.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

we need someone to weigh each axle (if we don't already have an acquaintance who's been rejected by VicRoads)

[Hymie]

A Fully CES'd Wrecker was waaaay overweight!

[Blknight.aus]

yes I know...

when the 10t floor jack cant get the axle up......

[dromader driver]

Summitt options.

Looking at where you are working and the conditions given that you are on some basis of formed road an 8x4 mack mcr trayback with diff/crosslocks would be sufficient??? Probably get to 350 hp without too much looking. I had found an 8x4 ultraliner in WA which cost $2k to put on the train to Parkes.


I am not comfortable operating at max weights off road with a high centre of gravity. The loggers seem to roll enough with a lower c of g. If the thing does get bogged you can always roll the dozer off and give it a tow!

just for consideration.....

[Bigbjorn]

. If the thing does get bogged you can always roll the dozer off and give it a tow!

just for consideration.....

One beginning wet season about 1960, a military convoy was camped at Kynuna southbound. Had about an inch or two of rain overnight. Locals said not to move until the black soil roads dry a bit. Macho swaddies pointed to the dozer on the float and said they could handle anything. "Ah, well" said the locals, "this will be amusing" as they gathered to watch the circus. Few miles out the float got bogged so off with the dozer to push it out. Guess what, one bogged dozer. Hook a couple of 6x6's on the dozer. Bogged 6x6's now to add to the score. Ended up with a few LR's bogged also. Then the real rain set in. Vehicles abandoned there until the roads dried. Main Roads Dept. having kittens about damage and ordered that no one try to move.

[Blknight.aus]

Thats not the only time thats happened.

we upset a PR photo shoot when I was setting up the clarke mast for the ACv...

smacked a star picket in and it just vanished and ooze started coming up through the star hole....

OC ACV gave "expetives, farey jump in start up and move, 2/3 start hold second, no heavy turns... why arent you moving us yet"

CO gave us the beans over the radio and the OC commented you guys are on black soil and we just lost a star picket

The Co was on the Regimental command net, gave the regimental tac designator , move easy now out.

the mack wrecker with the 20 plant trailer on the back was the last vehcile out and you could see the ground bow waving in front of the steer axle, the rear bogie wheels were slightly muddy the turntable bogie of the trailer had mud nearly to the rim and the rear pair of axles were up to the hub meters and the bevertail was dragging.

it took so long for it to get out we had time to start a betting pool as to if it would or not The driver was congratulated on his effort but batted it off as why, all i did was take off in second lock in the power divider and keep it pinned. When he saw the photos that were taken he claimed if hed seen that he probably would have bet on getting bogged.

[Summiitt]

Summitt options.

Looking at where you are working and the conditions given that you are on some basis of formed road an 8x4 mack mcr trayback with diff/crosslocks would be sufficient??? Probably get to 350 hp without too much looking. I had found an 8x4 ultraliner in WA which cost $2k to put on the train to Parkes.


I am not comfortable operating at max weights off road with a high centre of gravity. The loggers seem to roll enough with a lower c of g. If the thing does get bogged you can always roll the dozer off and give it a tow!

just for consideration.....
Not a bad idea, but I can run a standard 6x4 rigid flat top as a couple of other guys do, the issue is when you get into the steep country, steering these with cross locks is impossible, trust me I've done it before with floats, the second issue is that some locations are 20-40km on fire trails and above 1400m, if we get a front come in and I can't get out, that's where I stay...in the cab of the truck! 6wd gives me half a chance of getting out..

[theMISSIONARY]

i was under the impression they were going to keep the Mack wreckers?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

None of the Mack wreckers have come up yet so it is highly likely they will keep them. Remember the Army only just released one of the last Inter F5 wreckers (which AFM are keeping because its so useful around the Minto yard).

[Mick_Marsh]

i was under the impression they were going to keep the Mack wreckers?
Don't tell me that.
I'd love an armoured Mack wrecker.

[ade30946x6]

We need written evidence from Vic Roads of their position. Vendor/sellers ought to include this issue in their description, if confirmed reg is not possible in Vic. In my opinion these trucks are too pricey so far for what they are, especially when premiums are added to their bid price. Need solid clarification before I bid at all at current pricing.

[PeterM]

The Mack wreckers will be held for a while yet. Until Land 121 is replacing them they will remain in service. My company is working with Mack to replace some of the equipment currently attached to them with new items.

[dromader driver]

hey Summit,

I was working on a fire north of Brisbane on Saturday where they were using a d5/6 dozer and floating it around. the fire an dozer got a bit close so some quick helicopter support was required.

what did you end up doing about a truck?

[Summiitt]

Still watching the auctions, the prices on the last ones were a surprise, around the $40k mark...pretty keen to get something happening as it's testing my patience trying to fit my tri axle float into some jobs!

[ade30946x6]

If the one that was allegedly rejected for reg in Vic was the one quickly re-advertised with NSW slip on gumtree, it was a standard tray truck. Maybe that was why they did not answer my query regarding them providing a Vic RWC on sale.

[DeeJay]

Graysonline are reselling one as it looks as though it couldn't be registered here.

Ex Military 6 x 6 Tip Truck - Unreserved (http://www.graysonline.com/sale/3004460/agriculture-tractors/ex-military-6-x-6-tip-truck-unreserved'spr=true)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Graysonline are reselling one as it looks as though it couldn't be registered here.

Ex Military 6 x 6 Tip Truck - Unreserved (http://www.graysonline.com/sale/3004460/agriculture-tractors/ex-military-6-x-6-tip-truck-unreserved'spr=true)It seems that they are overweight over the front axle in Victoria in spite of the NSW Brownslip. While it may be on Graysoline, it is not being re-sold by AFM but by a private vendor, it is more like the same vehicle coming through eBay or Carsales.com any number of times.

[Mr Rover]

From what I can gather, they are running a 285hp Mack diesel, with a 6 speed crash box with selectable 6wd....very low horsepower but would probably climb a tree!

You are absolutely correct, as I once watched one attempt to drive over Dragon's Teeth (large concrete triangles designed to stop Tanks).
It got the whole front axle in the air before it beached itself.

[Bigbjorn]

Legal front axle weight is 6.0 tonnes. This would be Australia wide. If anybody is registering with a cheater weighbridge slip then they will eventually be found out. Only needs one vehicle to be put up on the portables or over the pits and the house of cards will come tumbling down.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Different variants have different front axle weights and so far it seems that the ones that go over the scales in Victoria have been knocked back. The ones sold in NSW have a brown slip, however have not heard if any have subsequently been targetted by the mermaids. Given that they have rear air suspension, it could be amatter of having too much air in the rear transferring too much weight to the front when empty.

We do know that a lot have been going to the warves for shipping to Zimbabwe for use in mines.

[Blknight.aus]

it could be amatter of having too much air in the rear transferring too much weight to the front when empty.


Nahh, they dont change that much in height.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Nahh, they dont change that much in height.Thought they'd be the same as a semi. I have a friend who drives B Doubles, loaded in Brisbane and was right on the axle limits when he entered NSW.

When he arrived at Mt White he was light on the drive and overweight on the A trailer. The only thing that changed was the fuel used which allowed the fifth wheel to lift transferring weight to the axle group on the A. He had to cop the fine even though the whole combination was below the limits.

[Blknight.aus]

yep, when you have a ton of fuel on board between the drive bogie and the steers that will happen to you but also look at the distances involved with the weight transfer. Going under/over and having the weight bias upset between the steers and the bogies I can understand but I suspect that in your friends case he may have also had some load shift, this is especially annoying for fruit haulers that have those plastic pallets on flat steel tray tautliner trailers, load it all up on the head boards with 6 inches to spare at the back and an inch between each pallet to make it easy for the forky and by the time you get up the first hill its all on the tail gates and your weight distribution is gone to hell.


the macks got something like 300l and the tank(s) are behind the rear wheels.

sure with a dual tank mack both filled and running empty it might be enough to make a difference but Id expect it to only be 5-19kg at the front wheels

[Bigbjorn]

Has anyone seen any weighbridge tickets for them?

Diana, I can't imagine any modern B-double using much more than about 500 litres of distillate Brisbane-Sydney which is 400 kilos. which would come off both steer and drive as consumed. Hardly enough to make a difference in ride height. Methinks he had a little bit much pudding on.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

yep, when you have a ton of fuel on board between the drive bogie and the steers that will happen to you but also look at the distances involved with the weight transfer. Going under/over and having the weight bias upset between the steers and the bogies I can understand but I suspect that in your friends case he may have also had some load shift, this is especially annoying for fruit haulers that have those plastic pallets on flat steel tray tautliner trailers, load it all up on the head boards with 6 inches to spare at the back and an inch between each pallet to make it easy for the forky and by the time you get up the first hill its all on the tail gates and your weight distribution is gone to hell.


the macks got something like 300l and the tank(s) are behind the rear wheels.

sure with a dual tank mack both filled and running empty it might be enough to make a difference but Id expect it to only be 5-19kg at the front wheelsToo right Dave. The problem with being a line haul subcontractor is that the trailers are loaded by the depot before the truck even arrives. There is no chance of shifting load to meet the weight distribution.

In this case, it was loaded to the gunnels by the depot and was legal leaving the depot and after crossing the border, but not at Mt White. Had he thought about it he could have let air out of the drive and brought the balance back and the truck and A trailer legal. But he didn't do that and it was only when we were discussing it over the kitchen table when the solution was realised.

As for the Mack's the tippers have the fuel tank at the front of the body, only the cargo flat beds have the fuel at the rear.

[Blknight.aus]

As for the Mack's the tippers have the fuel tank at the front of the body, only the cargo flat beds have the fuel at the rear.

they're not the only ones...

the cranes, bridgies (from memory) and arty truck have them at the back too.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

they're not the only ones...

the cranes, bridgies (from memory) and arty truck have them at the back too.OK then.

The tippers, like the subject of this part of the thread, have their fuel tanks at the front of the body and drive axles, potentially adding some of the fuel weight to the front axle. The others like tray backs have the fuel at the rear of the body, behind the drive.

[Blknight.aus]

ahh I wasnt being specific about the tipper variant hence the comment....

as a side thought......

if you stripped off the excess stuff from the font end (tool bins, spare + carrier, passenger seat, rear window, bonnet covers, every second wheel nut on the fronts) attached it behind the tray then put about 10-20 psi differential valve between the front and rear airbags (one per side) to pump the center axle down a little harder that'd get you close.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Or we could come in line with EU or US standards and allow 3 axle GVM of 25 Tonne with axle limits for singles up to 9.2 Tonne.

http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/axles.html

For what we want a Mack for we'd even consider replacing the front diff with a solid beam axle.

[Blknight.aus]

Or we could come in line with EU or US standards and allow 3 axle GVM of 25 Tonne with axle limits for singles up to 9.2 Tonne.

Transports Friend - Vehicle axles and weights (http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/axles.html)

For what we want a Mack for we'd even consider replacing the front diff with a solid beam axle.

interesting, considering they are jaming euro 5 down our throats but not supplying the infastructure to support it properly (unless they've gotten their act together in the last 5 years and no-one told me)

[goingbush]

interesting, considering they are jaming euro 5 down our throats but not supplying the infastructure to support it properly (unless they've gotten their act together in the last 5 years and no-one told me)

Off Topic, but my Iveco Daily 4x4 is Euro5 EEV , , the owners manual states if use fuel in countries above 5000ppm (sulphur) to half the service intervals ( 20k instead of 40k) , In 2001 Australia had 500ppm , 2006 -50ppm and 2009 10ppm

so I'm not really concerned about fuel quality ( tho I am fitting additional filters) but I'll still be halving the services to 20k ,

so what other Infrastructure are we talking about ??

Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)

[DeeJay]

It seems that they are overweight over the front axle in Victoria in spite of the NSW Brownslip. While it may be on Graysoline, it is not being re-sold by AFM but by a private vendor, it is more like the same vehicle coming through eBay or Carsales.com any number of times.

Sorry, I thought Graysonline would have sold it first time around..

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry, I thought Graysonline would have sold it first time around..Graysonline is just an auction site, somewhat similar to eBay, they don't buy or sell anything they merely run the auction. i.e. they are the auctioneer.

The original vendor was Australian Frontline Machinery, the vendor for the truck this time is a private seller.

[Blknight.aus]

Off Topic, but my Iveco Daily 4x4 is Euro5 EEV , , the owners manual states if use fuel in countries above 5000ppm (sulphur) to half the service intervals ( 20k instead of 40k) , In 2001 Australia had 500ppm , 2006 -50ppm and 2009 10ppm

so I'm not really concerned about fuel quality ( tho I am fitting additional filters) but I'll still be halving the services to 20k ,

so what other Infrastructure are we talking about ??

Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)


thats what its supposed to be except that

a, you can have upto 10% bio in your fuel before they have to advertise the bio content (but they are required to display the "this fuel may contain up to 10% bio" sticker somewhere on site.

b, the suspsended water content (especially further north) is usually over

c, particualate contamination

are usually not euro 5 compliant, and it gets worse, euro 6 is only just around the corner and its looking to more than halve the levels again to allow cleaner burns of the fuel and aid in the exhaust after care.

from the last run around that I did (about 5 years ago) most of the problems dont come from the refinery but from the sloppy handling of the fuel at the stations. Theres a local servo I wouldnt even fill fozzy from anymore (this occurred about 2 years ago now) because the fill points were covered with water (poor site drainage after construction works) and while talking to the tanker driver about how he kept the water out when coupling up got told "the owners basic opinion is just do the coupling works fast and get the covers on let the filters deal with it."

But its not just the euro standards that cause problems, go read the manual for ANY euro 4+ commonrail (or unit injected engine post about 2000) and you'll find in most cases the manufacturers acceptable limit for bio is 0% so unless you always fill up with the top line premium diesels (which arent available everywhere) and have all the receipts for all the fuel ever put into the vehicle if you do a high pressure pump injector or regulator the manufacturer can legally refuse the warranty work because you didnt fill it with the appropriate fuel.


Best thing is, unless you happen to have one of the first gotten rid of td5 ex mil vehicles you havent got a thing to worry about, hell strain and filter the sump oil on changes and blend it in at about 15% into the tank if you want to.

[Summiitt]

Exactly how much over weight is the front axle..does anybody know?

[Blknight.aus]

it varies from type to type and load conditions.

work on 7.2T

[Bigbjorn]

it varies from type to type and load conditions.

work on 7.2T

As I suspected. Over on the steer as built. How does someone register one without cheating? Permits used to be available in Qld. but you needed a very good and believable reason.

In the 1960's Leyland sold a heavy prime mover, the Buffalo, always known internally as the Albion Buffalo. Virtually a Super Hippo with the export cab, monster hub reduction diffs and the Albion 903 16 litre engine designed originally for shunting locomotives. These were over on the steer as built. No problem in those more cavalier days. Just get a certificate from a co-operative weighbridge, usually cost a carton, showing a ton less on the steer and away it went freshly registered. Then someone tendered one to the Main Roads Dept for a low loader prime mover and won the tender. Main Roads did their own weighing and the poo got right in the fan. MRD then checked all those on register and had no option, faced with a group of very angry owners, but to issue over-weight permits.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

What I don't understand is if they're over in Vic, how do they get a Brown slip from AFM in NSW?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/military-vehicles-general/64416d1376911407-ex-army-mack-6x6-trucks-nsw-brown-slip-1.pdf

[Blknight.aus]

As I suspected. Over on the steer as built. How does someone register one without cheating? Permits used to be available in Qld. but you needed a very good and believable reason.

In the 1960's Leyland sold a heavy prime mover, the Buffalo, always known internally as the Albion Buffalo. Virtually a Super Hippo with the export cab, monster hub reduction diffs and the Albion 903 16 litre engine designed originally for shunting locomotives. These were over on the steer as built. No problem in those more cavalier days. Just get a certificate from a co-operative weighbridge, usually cost a carton, showing a ton less on the steer and away it went freshly registered. Then someone tendered one to the Main Roads Dept for a low loader prime mover and won the tender. Main Roads did their own weighing and the poo got right in the fan. MRD then checked all those on register and had no option, faced with a group of very angry owners, but to issue over-weight permits.

The regulations when the R series came into service were looser, the ADF has been operating under exemption for a long time now. You can get an exemption but you would need a reason to, a logging company or farm owner might get away with it claiming the requirement for 6wd and the brute strength of the vehicle. Some museums should also be able to get it for historic purposes.


What I don't understand is if they're over in Vic, how do they get a Brown slip from AFM in NSW?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/military-vehicles-general/64416d1376911407-ex-army-mack-6x6-trucks-nsw-brown-slip-1.pdf

Thats not a rego, thats just a statement of conformance to a standard, being overweight on an axle is something that can be wivered around so for all intents and purposes what that certificate gives you is 3 things

1. the vehicle is safe to operate (it brakes has all the correct lighting and isnt leaking)
2. It matches its compliance plates (your not trying to get a dumper body registered on a rebirthed GS set of plates and is on spec for the weight plates (if fitted))
3. That it meets the linear dimensional requirements.

Also that lot of paperwork aint worth squiddly because

a, its not fitted with a cummins its fitted with a MACK engine
b, its not 6590 of displacement its ~11000 (assuming they're working in CC because its sure as hell not cubic inches)
c, its not design complaint with vsi 5 and needs to have an RMS permit for 3t over on the steer (which give or take, is what the GS varient was when it had the M113A1 loaded on correctly) or at least 2t.

If you were to rego that vehicle with those papers and got caught you would go for.
1. undocumented engine change
2. engine over stated capacity and not engineered
3. over mass on the steer.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If you were to rego that vehicle with those papers and got caught you would go for.
1. undocumented engine change
2. engine over stated capacity and not engineered
3. over mass on the steer.Well actually given that the Cummins is smaller than the Mack donk, it doesn't need engineering and the engine number is the Mack one. Even an increase in engine capacity can in many cases be signed off by a blue/brown slip inspector without an engineers certification.

More than that it would be the person who issued the brown slip that would cop the fine for the paperwork.

As the owner/driver you could apeal any fine for overmass because that is how you purchased the truck and believed the paperwork. You couldn't do that twice though.

[Blknight.aus]

Well actually given that the Cummins is smaller than the Mack donk, it doesn't need engineering and the engine number is the Mack one. Even an increase in engine capacity can in many cases be signed off by a blue/brown slip inspector without an engineers certification.

More than that it would be the person who issued the brown slip that would cop the fine for the paperwork.

As the owner/driver you could apeal any fine for overmass because that is how you purchased the truck and believed the paperwork. You couldn't do that twice though.

go on, bet me....

sure you'd win at the end of the day but they would hold you for knowingly submitting incorrectly completed paperwork if you were lucky and submitting willfully falsified documentation if you werent.

if they took the line that the cummins engine was correct at the time of issuing (we'll just pretend they will say that the OEM engine was removed and then blue plated with the replacement cummins to get the front end wieght down and make it vsi-5 compliant because thats what the paperwork shows) and then they found you with an 11 liter donk in there then your over the 25% (might be different now) increase in capacity that you're permitted to have without re-engineering.

Dont you love bureaucracy ? and yes, they will try that on. There's a pootrol on base that has a blue plate on it to go from the ls1 and auto it had grafted into it back to the original 4.2 and manual. Even the engineer that had to make out the plate commented on it as bureaucracy gone mad. Of course the logic is that anything that got modded that needed engineering to make sure it was sound was undone in the same manner and that the vehicle is still sound. It just seems stupid.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

No blue plates outside Qld

[Bigbjorn]

Well actually given that the Cummins is smaller than the Mack donk, it doesn't need engineering and the engine number is the Mack one. Even an increase in engine capacity can in many cases be signed off by a blue/brown slip inspector without an engineers certification.

More than that it would be the person who issued the brown slip that would cop the fine for the paperwork.

As the owner/driver you could apeal any fine for overmass because that is how you purchased the truck and believed the paperwork. You couldn't do that twice though.

Mack uses a ****y little engine of about 9 litres from memory. Cummins used in that class of truck were the NTC series of 14 litres and weigh around 2500-2600 lbs. according to specs. Oil companies liked Macks because of their low tare. Small engine, small gearbox, 34000 lb. tandem, thin rails. The 6x6 used heavy stuff except the engine.

[Blknight.aus]

pretty certain its 11l,

70199

Could be experience, could be because I have the emei In front of me...

[ade30946x6]

Graysonline and vendor ought to fully disclose registration issues in the description as they ought to know them by now. I suggest prices are higher as a result of buyers not being fully informed regarding registration issues. I emailed vicroads for an answer today.

[Blknight.aus]

not their requirment...

if you bought one to use on a farm you dont need to worry about it.

thats their line, they'll stick to it.

as is, where is, caveat emptor.

[isuzurover]

Graysonline and vendor ought to fully disclose registration issues in the description as they ought to know them by now. I suggest prices are higher as a result of buyers not being fully informed regarding registration issues. I emailed vicroads for an answer today.

caveat emptor

(I see BK beat me to it...)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The prices are high because mining companies can see the value in the trucks which they ship to Africa for mining projects in countries that don't have our weight restrictions.

They go out through Port Botany after every auction.

[Summiitt]

I'm thinking the person who did the brown slip doesn't know the difference between a Mack engine and a Cummings..I wonder without being stupid about it, what weight you could get the front axle down to? Alloy rims, get rid of any tank holders, tool boxes etc. If I could get it to within about 6.5 ton, I wouldn't have a drama buying one..mermaids arnt a big problem in around Canberra and really only sit on common truck routes..

[ade30946x6]

Maybe caveat emptor for a mum and dad seller, but perhaps not this type of seller.

[Blknight.aus]

nope ,read their site, as is where is buyer accepts all risk. (in a nutshell)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

nope ,read their site, as is where is buyer accepts all risk. (in a nutshell)Many times disclaimers like that have no basis in law. You can not absolve yourself of negligence or criminal act, particularly when they, by now, would know the actual specifications.

[isuzurover]

Maybe caveat emptor for a mum and dad seller, but perhaps not this type of seller.

I think you need to look up the definition of emptor...



Many times disclaimers like that have no basis in law. You can not absolve yourself of negligence or criminal act, particularly when they, by now, would know the actual specifications.

As long as the seller has not knowingly misrepresented the goods they are fine. Where have they stated that are able to be registered in Vic? (or anywhere else for that matter).

Just like the 4BD1s with big end knocks that they won't let you start before the auction...

[Blknight.aus]

Many times disclaimers like that have no basis in law. You can not absolve yourself of negligence or criminal act, particularly when they, by now, would know the actual specifications.

except there is nothing criminal or negligent about it.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

except there is nothing criminal or negligent about it.If they issue a brown slip for a vehicle that they know is over mass on one axle then that is fraud, as well as misleading avertising and both criminal offences.

If they issue a brownslip to a vehicle and don't know that it doesn't meet mass and dimension limits then that is negligence.

They can't absolve themselves from either of those actions or omissions by a disclaimer.

The question still comes back to the fact that some variants may be within the limits and others may not be.

[Blknight.aus]

If they issue a brown slip for a vehicle that they know is over mass on one axle then that is fraud, as well as misleading avertising and both criminal offences.

If they issue a brownslip to a vehicle and don't know that it doesn't meet mass and dimension limits then that is negligence.

They can't absolve themselves from either of those actions or omissions by a disclaimer.

The question still comes back to the fact that some variants may be within the limits and others may not be.

the problem with that is..

They dont issue the brown slip

Its not their problem

Its like holding me responsible for a repair failure thats failed because of a defective part when I've done the repair using parts that you purchased and provided instead of ones I provide.

If registering vehicles was their trade then they would have a problem but as it is legally and morally it is the responsibility of the agency that is being paid to provide the service of the rego slipping paperwork to do their job correctly.

Similarly the reason you are not permitted to start, run or invasively inspect the gear (hell I'm surprised they let you open the bonnet, the one of the townsville auction houses wouldn't let you open the doors or get underneath) is that it is NOT the property of greys for them to give that permission, why do you think that there is a premium paid on every item they sell? Clever machine sellers in Darwin used to be on site when their gear was being sold so that interested buyers could at least run and test the basic functionality of the machine (this was 10+ years ago now I have no doubt that insurance has put paid to that) unsurprisingly the bidding was always much hotter on gear that the owner had shown up to permit testing.

[ade30946x6]

Sellers of this magnitude have duties. They are selling hundreds of them. So you are saying that if a child is injured by a faulty product, then they have no claim due to a concept of caveat emptor. Not true. What about the tort of negligence?

[Blknight.aus]

The sellers do, but the sellers Aint Greys, they just hold the auction.

If you have a beef about how the auction was handled then you talk to them.

If you have a problem with the condition of the equipment as it was sold then thats a problem that you take up with the person(company) who commissioned the sale.

In your case...

IF you buy the gear you have accepted it as it is where it was, if you find something wrong with it and you keep using it and someone gets hurt thats your problem and you wear the consequences. IF you have a bit of paper that says its all fine and dandy and its not then its not the problem of the person who sold the equipment, its not the problem of the person who held the auction its still your problem YOU have to prove that you didnt know or have reason to suspect that the paperwork was wrong (which a really good law firm will find this thread and then your screwed) and then you have to have the responsibility apportioned to the person(company) who completed and submitted the paperwork.

Claim what you like think what you want but thats how it is.

Is it legal? yes,
is it moraly sound? probably not
Can you do anything about it? sure, don't buy something if you don't think its up to standard or sort the problem out before you go about using the gear.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

the problem with that is..

They dont issue the brown slip

Its not their problem ...The company who issues the brownslip is Australian National Disposals Pty Ltd of the same address.

I would suggest that both AFM plus AND are directly related to the parent company Sell and Parker.

[Blknight.aus]

The company who issues the brownslip is Australian National Disposals Pty Ltd of the same address.

I would suggest that both AFM plus AND are directly related to the parent company Sell and Parker.

I'll bet they are a subsidurary business of a company.

(look at it as umbrellering if the small company that does roadworthies gets busted they just write it off and start a new one)

[ade30946x6]

Maybe, guess a disgruntled buyer needs to challenge.

[Summiitt]

I've got to say, it's the first truck/machinery auction I've ever been to where you can't start or operate any equipment.. Bit odd.
As an aside, I've found out I'm legal to 6.7tons on the front axle if I fit super singles..problem is getting closer to being solved..now I just need an actual front axle weight, not a guesstimate weight.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have you tried Mack themselves?

They must have a technical office who would have the specs.

[goingbush]

I've got to say, it's the first truck/machinery auction I've ever been to where you can't start or operate any equipment.. Bit odd.
As an aside, I've found out I'm legal to 6.7tons on the front axle if I fit super singles..problem is getting closer to being solved..now I just need an actual front axle weight, not a guesstimate weight.

Wonder if they would let you jack a wheel up and slip a portable scale underneath ???

Truck Scales and Truck Weighbridges - Truckmate Portable Axle Scales (http://www.portabletruckscales.com.au)

[Uglitom]

"Noisey, slow, hot, hard to drive, uncomfortable, underpowered, overweight, maintenance intensive and ugly." which translates out of nacy boy into "What Chuck Norris would trasform into if he ever became a transformer"

Have to refute hard to drive, and comfort did improve when they bagged the rear ends if the cargos. Hot and noisy is absolutely true. There are a few old prototypes with stack exhausts and roof cupola which usually ended up as gun tractors ( split tray with a crane in the middle).

Not for the faint of heart or short of pocket, but if anyone here buys one and needs it driven somewhere PM me- wouldn't mind another go!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have you tried Mack themselves?

They must have a technical office who would have the specs.Mack is in Airds Rd Minto, just up and across the road from AFM, perhaps pop in there on the way to inspect one an then into Protec Paints (also on the same side as Mack) when you buy one.

Sort of a one stop Mack shop!:D