Lost at sea.

[Allan]

As someone who has a family with a long navel and military history I today stand ashamed at the Australian Customs action of not retrieving the bodies of the lost that drowned off Christmas Island. How can a country allow these bodies to float in the ocean as fish food. Shame Australia, Yes this is political and probably not the place to air it, but at the moment I am very disgusted, ****ed off, with my country's action. Advance Australia fair, Bull****.

Allan

[Eevo]

from the news i read:

THE bodies of dozens of asylum seekers have been left at sea because Australian authorities are too busy rescuing the living from stricken vessels.

Read more: Asylum seeker bodies left at sea as authorities stretched | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national-news/asylum-seeker-bodies-left-at-sea-as-authorities-stretched/story-fncynjr2-1226661432847#ixzz2VqWG4sxt)




preventing further loss of life should be number one priority.

[incisor]

As someone who has a family with a long navel and military history I today stand ashamed at the Australian Customs action of not retrieving the bodies of the lost that drowned off Christmas Island. How can a country allow these bodies to float in the ocean as fish food. Shame Australia, Yes this is political and probably not the place to air it, but at the moment I am very disgusted, ****ed off, with my country's action. Advance Australia fair, Bull****.

Allan

your fix to the problem would be?

[amtravic1]

I know this will cause a lot of comment but as far as I am concerned the queue jumpers can all drown.
Get in line, fill out the correct papers and wait your turn. If these people have so little respect for our laws trying to get here then they are most likely not going to respect them when they are here. I do feel sorry for the kids dragged along though.
There are many people that feel the same as me, just too scared to say it.

[Ancient Mariner]

Davey Jones won`t mind

[mikehzz]

I know this will cause a lot of comment but as far as I am concerned the queue jumpers can all drown.
Get in line, fill out the correct papers and wait your turn. If these people have so little respect for our laws trying to get here then they are most likely not going to respect them when they are here. I do feel sorry for the kids dragged along though.
There are many people that feel the same as me, just too scared to say it.

In bad taste and not worth a comment. Oh bugger, I just commented...

[stallie]

Yes, the priority should be for rescuing the living.

What a lot of people fail to realise is just how far away Christmas Island and Cocos Island are from the mainland, and the logistics issues involved in SAR in that part of the world. From Port Headland to these islands is akin to SYD to NZ.

[Carnut1100]

Tough decision to make, it was never going to look good leaving the bodies out there, but when there are living people to be rescued that is where the effort needs to be directed and I support that decision fully.
If all outstanding rescues are completed then it would be nice if they could have a look for the bodies if practicable.

[Mick_Marsh]

I know this will cause a lot of comment but as far as I am concerned the queue jumpers can all drown.
Get in line, fill out the correct papers and wait your turn. If these people have so little respect for our laws trying to get here then they are most likely not going to respect them when they are here. I do feel sorry for the kids dragged along though.
There are many people that feel the same as me, just too scared to say it.
I understand your sentiment but it's not quite as you state.
They should be applying for asylum in the first country (that is signatory to the CRSR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees)) they get to. Not trying to get to Australia. Then they can be re-settled worldwide.
Turning back the boats sounds like a step in the right direction.

[shorty943]

A hard choice to have to make, but, no different to the same choice made when one of our own fishermen or yachties gets lost at sea.
One actually has little chance of survival out there unprotected for more than a day or so at the best of times.
The only choice is to keep searching for survivors, after a couple of days, even that has slim chances of finding any left alive.

[DOD DEFENDER]

The living should come first to be saved. I do also feel sorry for the children that are dragged along. At least we try to save them dont see others doing much. I will only say this you don't want to know the policy in the 50s and 60s to this problem of boat people. Part of white Australia policy. My family came out by boat most of us would have I am 7th gen Australian the bad family first fleet the good ones second fleet sea captain and the rest late 1800s.

[Chucaro]

There will be more when or if the Australian Government start sending back the boats. They do not have a place to go so if the boats do not go under the people will died on deck.
Jakarta would not accept the tow back policy.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

A horrible situation for so many reasons... :(


your fix to the problem would be?

At the risk of being unpopular, I have got one - give Christmas Island to Indonesia.

Does it solve the problem? No way. But it makes sea travel to Australia an order of magnitude more difficult which hopefully provides a suitable disincentive to that route.

On the other hand that may just make the Timor / Australia route more popular.

As others have said I don't quite understand why these people don't just apply for asylum in another country, rather than risking their lives to get to Australia, but then again I have the first world luxury of not being in that position in the first place.

[Chucaro]

At the risk of being unpopular, I have got one - give Christmas Island to Indonesia.

Does it solve the problem? No way. But it makes sea travel to Australia an order of magnitude more difficult which hopefully provides a suitable disincentive to that route.

Yes, good idea so they can repair the boats and reach WA in much better shape :D
What next, give the NW of Australia to them as well?

[Barefoot Dave]

I suspect the Abbott policy is one of finding greater depths to plumb to appeal to the Lowest Common Denominator, and will never truly be enacted.
But, if it was, I see it as the most reckless, foolhardy and outright dangerous policy since "All the way, with LBJ"
If you think Indonesia is complicit now, just you wait! For now the support given to people smugglers is a case of local corruption, THEN it will become Policy and we will see them fuelling boats up free!
Geez, If you think things are bad now....



Bleh, disgusted!

[Mick_Marsh]

There will be more when or if the Australian Government start sending back the boats. They do not have a place to go so if the boats do not go under the people will died on deck.
Jakarta would not accept the tow back policy.
Push them out into international waters. Other SE Asian countries do that.
If they know that they will not at any cost reach Australia, things may slow.
Then, of course, they scuttle their boats. With those, we sail them to the nearest port as required by international law.
If that port is in Australia, detention until their claim is processed under the UN rules in due course or a free plane ticket back to their point of origin or another country that is a signatory.
Oh, yes, forgot to mention, make the application for asylum one shot. No appeals. Once the decision has been made you're out of here.

[Ean Austral]

Tell Indonesia that for every person that leaves their shores from the people smugglers they will loose $50,000 in Australian aide.

See how long it takes to make a difference.

Cheers Ean

[manic]

I wrote a whole piece on this and then realised its not worth it.

Frankly, you cannot have a strong opinion on the 'boat people' if you only confront the issue sat in front of your TV.

How about flying to some war torn countries to see what fear is all about - too risky? .... oh no hang on your saving up for a bigger TV.

How about visiting a detention center here in Australia and meeting those that are directly affected? The staff and the captives I'm sure will be happy to talk to you... oh hang on you probably haven't got the time and besides free time is for fishing...

How about driving your land rovers to a detention center, have a cup of tea with the 'que jumpers', let them know how you feel! Perhaps then your views will hold a little weight.

OR if you cant be bothered with the reality of it all just continue to sit in front of your TV and shut the **** up.

[weeds]

I wrote a whole piece on this and then released its not worth it.

Frankly, you cannot have a strong opinion on the 'boat people' if you only confront the issue sat in front of your TV.

How about flying to some war torn countries to see what fear is all about - too risky? .... oh no hang on your saving up for a bigger TV.

How about visiting a detention center here in Australia and meeting those that are directly affected? The staff and the captives I'm sure will be happy to talk to you... oh hang on you probably haven't got the time and besides free time is for fishing...

How about driving your land rovers to a detention center, have a cup of tea with the 'que jumpers', let them know how you feel! Perhaps then your views will hold a little weight.

OR if you cant be bothered with the reality of it all just continue to sit in front of your TV and shut the **** up.

i see you forgot to give us your opinion.........

the great thing about forums is each of us can voice our opinions, its up the the person reading each post to make his own mind up whether they agree or not, some member may also have an opinion of you now as well:angel:

[NavyDiver]

I picked a few dead people out of the water. Picked up bits of dead people too. Not fun (australian and american pilots)

I cannot even start to think how to retrive so many people who died in this tragedy. It is a tragedy people died.

It is not the navy or customs fault and while people are upset being offensive to others peoples thoughts on this topic is not for me. RIP all who died at sea.

If your family lived in economic destitution or war zones I would assume you would help them get to some where safer? Australia cannot help everyone and some order is needed. A bit of balance and even more efforts to help people live fairly in which ever country they reside.

[manic]

i see you forgot to give us your opinion.........

the great thing about forums is each of us can voice our opinions, its up the the person reading each post to make his own mind up whether they agree or not, some member may also have an opinion of you now as well:angel:

Sure, that much is obvious. You have made a good example. I would not form a STRONG opinion on any AULRO member based on what they post on this site. I certainly wouldn't leave you stranded by the side of the road if I found you in need.

I only feel that some of the comments here against asylum seekers are overly aggressive and heartless. If you can justify leaving someone to die you better have a bloody good reason.

I just read the news to which this post refers too... Terrible loss of life. IMO it looks on the face of it to be a poor show from the Navy - sighted 28 miles from xmas, life jackets onboard and then they managed to lose the boat without saving any one? And now the bodies are adrift? It's a shame they couldn't do better.

[Chucaro]

.................................................. .....

How about visiting a detention center here in Australia and meeting those that are directly affected? The staff and the captives I'm sure will be happy to talk to you... oh hang on you probably haven't got the time and besides free time is for fishing...

How about driving your land rovers to a detention center, have a cup of tea with the 'que jumpers', let them know how you feel! Perhaps then your views will hold a little weight.

OR if you cant be bothered with the reality of it all just continue to sit in front of your TV and shut the **** up.

Why you do not go to the over seas refugee camps were people are living in tents and try to come to Australia by the proper way?
Why you no go there and tell them that they have to wait long time there because you give preference to the other group that come by boat?
I guess that it is easy for you to sit in the front of the PC and express your opinion here.

[101RRS]

Terrible loss of life. IMO it looks on the face of it to be a poor show from the Navy - sighted 28 miles from xmas, life jackets onboard and then they managed to lose the boat without saving any one? And now the bodies are adrift? It's a shame they couldn't do better.

I think we are talking about two different boats here - the one that sank with major loss of life was much further out than 28 miles - something like 70miles and was spotted by aircraft and sank before the ship got there.

I understand there is a major operation closer in - maybe the one you are referring to that the Navy is concentrating saving people - hence calling off the search for bodies form the first incident.

I take it from your comments "It's a shame they couldn't do better" that you think they are just sitting there doing nothing happy to let people die - I think that is just a cheap shot that is not helpful at all.

Garry

[Ferret]

Tell Indonesia that for every person that leaves their shores from the people smugglers they will loose $50,000 in Australian aide.

See how long it takes to make a difference.

Cheers Ean

I think you will find this happens in a round about way. If I recall correctly the total overseas aid budget is being tapped to pay for the increasing cost of processing larger and larger numbers of boat people.

Therefore the net aid directly available to overseas humanitarian trouble spots is less.

You lose control of your borders plus you loss control of how you spend your allocated aid money.

[PhilipA]

This would be OK if it were true Chucaro.
However a 5 second search with Google finds the following on the SBS site of all things.


At January 31, 2013, 47 per cent of detainees were Sri Lankan nationals, 13 per
cent from Iran and 11 per cent from Afghanistan.

Can you tell me about the tent cities in Sri Lanka and Iran? My assessent is that the overwhelming number of immigrants from these countries are economic rent seekers, and this is the view of the governments of Sri Lanka and Australia seeing more than 1000 have been repatriated.

Iranians I don't know about but I have seen several interviews with Iranians who appear to middle class professionals, maybe Christians who may feel they are persecuted, but of course this has been so for centuries. What has happened recently that suddenly makes it unbearable? Having said that IMHO the Iranians are probably the ones who will fit our society best.

But the point is that Australia does not have to be driven by the agendas of people from a foreign country who use all sorts of emotional blackmail including loadiing their children on leaky boats. They then destroy the paperwork that enables Australia to know who they really are.
The big difference with previous immigration flows is that the refugees did everything in their power generally to preserve their identities, not destroy them as now.
Regards Philip A

[Ean Austral]

Sure, that much is obvious. You have made a good example. I would not form a STRONG opinion on any AULRO member based on what they post on this site. I certainly wouldn't leave you stranded by the side of the road if I found you in need.

I only feel that some of the comments here against asylum seekers are overly aggressive and heartless. If you can justify leaving someone to die you better have a bloody good reason.

I just read the news to which this post refers too... Terrible loss of life. IMO it looks on the face of it to be a poor show from the Navy - sighted 28 miles from xmas, life jackets onboard and then they managed to lose the boat without saving any one? And now the bodies are adrift? It's a shame they couldn't do better.

There is a big difference between a plane seeing a vessel that may have been 28 mls from Christmas Isl, ( funny the TV I watch said 65mls ) reguardless, if the closest vessel is 100 or more miles away, (which once again the TV I watch said they were), then its a bit hard to blame the navy.
Not really sure if you have been involved in a sea search, But I have on more than 1 occasion, and to try and find a boat in the dark of night is bloody near on impossible, let alone bodies.
The last search I was involved in the crewman fell overboard ( later found out jumped ) and was reported as having gone over the side less than 20 mins after he did. 7 boats searched and he was pulled from the water dead 10 hours later. Those 7 boats were within 15 mile radius of the vessel he was on and commenced searching straight away.

I dont think anybody involved in the search would go out of the way to leave the bodies, but if 15 are confirmed dead, then its only fair and right for the navy/customs, to look for the other 40 that the TV says are unaccounted for and could be alive.

For the record, I have been to a detention centre, I have also and still am employing some of the people to work whilst they are being processed, but my veiw of Asylem seekers who come by boat hasnt changed.

Might go back to watching TV then go fishing after work.:wasntme:

Cheers Ean

[manic]

Why you do not go to the over seas refugee camps were people are living in tents and try to come to Australia by the proper way?
Why you no go there and tell them that they have to wait long time there because you give preference to the other group that come by boat?
I guess that it is easy for you to sit in the front of the PC and express your opinion here.

Yes I am in front of my PC. I have not visited an UN camp or experienced the ravages of war. I have not spoken to many refugees. Simply put I have not researched the issue in the way I think would be required to form an opinion as consequential as this ->


I know this will cause a lot of comment but as far as I am concerned the queue jumpers can all drown.
Get in line, fill out the correct papers and wait your turn.

WTF?

BTW that fill in the paper thing and wait your turn could be complete bunch of useless bollocks. Do you know?

[manic]

I take it from your comments "It's a shame they couldn't do better" that you think they are just sitting there doing nothing happy to let people die - I think that is just a cheap shot that is not helpful at all.

Garry

No not at all Garry, I was being sincere. Difficult on forums to come across in the right way when dealing with sensitive issues.. It's sad that they couldn't save any one.

[Ean Austral]

The other problem is that the other vessels are now sending distress calls for things as simple as running out of fuel / engine problems.

Cheers Ean

[manic]

There is a big difference between a plane seeing a vessel that may have been 28 mls from Christmas Isl, ( funny the TV I watch said 65mls ) reguardless, if the closest vessel is 100 or more miles away, (which once again the TV I watch said they were), then its a bit hard to blame the navy.
Not really sure if you have been involved in a sea search, But I have on more than 1 occasion, and to try and find a boat in the dark of night is bloody near on impossible, let alone bodies.
The last search I was involved in the crewman fell overboard ( later found out jumped ) and was reported as having gone over the side less than 20 mins after he did. 7 boats searched and he was pulled from the water dead 10 hours later. Those 7 boats were within 15 mile radius of the vessel he was on and commenced searching straight away.

I dont think anybody involved in the search would go out of the way to leave the bodies, but if 15 are confirmed dead, then its only fair and right for the navy/customs, to look for the other 40 that the TV says are unaccounted for and could be alive.

For the record, I have been to a detention centre, I have also and still am employing some of the people to work whilst they are being processed, but my veiw of Asylem seekers who come by boat hasnt changed.

Might go back to watching TV then go fishing after work.:wasntme:

Cheers Ean

I fear the Sea so there is also my own selfish reason for hoping that the Navy could have done better. In other words this news does nothing to make me feel any safer whilst at sea. I would have thought 28 miles off the coast with life jackets and spotted by the Navy would make for a good chance of survival...... its seems I would have been wrong... oh well you wont find me out sailing any time soon.

[Ean Austral]

I fear the Sea so there is also my own selfish reason for hoping that the Navy could have done better. In other words this news does nothing to make me feel any safer whilst at sea. I would have thought 28 miles off the coast with life jackets and spotted by the Navy would make for a good chance of survival...... its seems I would have been wrong... oh well you wont find me out sailing any time soon.

See here lies the problem, most people think that 28 mls is not far, because they relate it to driving a car, but most boats are lucky if they do 20mls/hr, Navy maybe 30mls/hr, so if they are 100mls away thats a minimum of 3hrs, then they arrive in the dark. Also you are looking at a tide movement of say 3mls/hr, so those people are now 9 mls from where they were seen, but is that 9mls in the direction of the current, or has the wind affected the drift so now they may be 8mls in a 30 degree arc off the current direction, so the search area gets bigger.

Does it still seem so simple or do you want and a few more varibles like swell, or if they are hanging onto something, or if they have tried to swim to what they think is something or someone close.

Then you need to decide did the ones they find stay with the wreckage, or did they swim, or were they the only ones who got off when it sank.

I think the Navy / Customs are doing a good job in very difficult circumstances.

Cheers Ean

[Chucaro]

This would be OK if it were true Chucaro.
However a 5 second search with Google finds the following on the SBS site of all things.



Can you tell me about the tent cities in Sri Lanka and Iran? My assessent is that the overwhelming number of immigrants from these countries are economic rent seekers, and this is the view of the governments of Sri Lanka and Australia seeing more than 1000 have been repatriated.

Iranians I don't know about but I have seen several interviews with Iranians who appear to middle class professionals, maybe Christians who may feel they are persecuted, but of course this has been so for centuries. What has happened recently that suddenly makes it unbearable? Having said that IMHO the Iranians are probably the ones who will fit our society best.

But the point is that Australia does not have to be driven by the agendas of people from a foreign country who use all sorts of emotional blackmail including loadiing their children on leaky boats. They then destroy the paperwork that enables Australia to know who they really are.
The big difference with previous immigration flows is that the refugees did everything in their power generally to preserve their identities, not destroy them as now.
Regards Philip A
Philip I was not referring to those people from Sri Lanka and Iran, I was referring to legitimate refugees who are all over the world. That people are living in camps and trying to go to a country were they can live in peace.
I cannot understand these people that come in boats and alleged to be desperate how can have the luxury of selecting a country of destination.
More than that why selecting a country with a culture and main religion complete different to the country were they come from.
Back in the late 60's and early seventies people in South America that were in danger to loose their life used to run inside any embassy without looking into the standard of life of the country that was represented by that embassy.

[Didge]

No one's ever gonna win this argument guys and everyone sees everyone else as soft or heartless so don't get offended when someone doesn't agree with you.
Interesting that Syrian "refugees" have sought safety in one of the nearest countries - Turkey and Middle Eastern, Sri Lankans and others seek safety in the nearest country - Australia? Oh, I guess they're country shopping, not really seeking refuge. Amazing how the political term changed from boat people, to refugees to asylum seekers, isn't it?
And then many want to impose on us the lifestyle and religion they seek to escape.
Looks like I'm on the heartless side. I then wonder how many of the "compassionate campers" are active environmentalists campaigning for living rights for endangered species of flora and fauna across the world. Not many, I'd guess. I'm assuming with 7 billion plus humans we're not exactly endangered.

[Gillie]

I missed watching this Go Back To Where You Came From - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But I believe it changed the views of some. you can watch episodes on you tube I have just found out.

It is a tough topic but If it was my family living in a war torn country I would be looking at options to get out.

We are certainly lucky to be living in Australia.

[Allan]

I missed watching this Go Back To Where You Came From - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Back_To_Where_You_Came_From)

But I believe it changed the views of some. you can watch episodes on you tube I have just found out.

It is a tough topic but If it was my family living in a war torn country I would be looking at options to get out.

We are certainly lucky to be living in Australia.

I think we tend to forget how lucky we are, where we came from and how to show a little humanity. If we had turned away all races/religions seeing help
what sort of country would this be. If you live in Syria, Iran, or the like, and desire a peaceful carefree lifestyle, as our British, Italian, Greek and Yugoslav remnants of war torn Europe chose, Australia would be a very high priority choice, even for a Kiwi. And what would we be without them. The input from these immigrants have built the backbone of our nation. We moaned and bitched about boat people from Vietnam, but now they are seen as a great influence to our way of life. Perhaps we are becoming a very right wing nation with little tolerance for a people forced into lives in war torn or brutal regimes with different belief systems to us. I have little time for cheats or cue jumpers, but I will bet many Europeans during the 1930/40 would have sold all they had to the devil to get out of Europe to the Golden Medina, England or Australia to escape the persecution many endured, as did the Ukrainians under Stalin. Whats different, and without lawful investigation of there status how can they be judged. I believe it must truly take some form of horror and fear to put your wife and kids in one of those boats, and yes I have seen them, and contemplate the journey to Australia and the suggestion by some that they all drown proves our heartless view on there plight
Allan

[Chucaro]

Valid point Allan.
Do you remember how was Auburn, Fairfield, Cabramatta, Villawood, Bankstown ,etc in Sydney area back in the 70's when all the European used to live there?
Go a have a look now, go to Bankstown and Auburn and then let me know ;)

[spudboy]

As someone who has a family with a long navel and military history ...

Our family has a long history a navel gazing... but I digress.

I've a naval mate (who is actually a Commander) who works in the very department that manages/oversees all of this, and I can tell you that their resources are stretched to the limit. They are doing the best they can with the resources available.

[stallie]

I've a naval mate (who is actually a Commander)

I have one too, and he concurs with your mate (can't be the same one as my mate's at sea).

To follow on from what I said earlier about the area to patrol, here is a map of Australia's Search and Rescue area - and note that that does NOT include the region between Xmas Is and Indo that our navy is currently very preoccupied in.

Overlaid on the map are two 1250nm (2315km) circles, one centred on Cocos and the other on Sydney.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/996.jpg

Now put this in perspective of those comments earlier about how hard it is to search (and the top speed of boats) and you will soon see why any criticism of the Navy's decision is unfounded.

The only criticism valid here in this sorry saga is the failure of successive governments to build up enough Military / SAR capability in these areas.

[Eevo]

The only criticism valid here in this sorry saga is the failure of successive governments to build up enough Military / SAR capability in these areas.

being former army i agree however the cost is enormous.

SAR operations to find people can go for a million dollars a day.
i know they say human life is priceless but at the end of the day, someone has to pay the bill and we might be the lucky country, but we don't have unlimited resources or money.

[austastar]

Overlaid on the map are two 1250nm (2315km) circles, one centred on Cocos and the other on Sydney.


That is a lot of water.

cheers

[UncleHo]

And it covers so much of the Indonesian Islands no wonder the Indo's don't bother

[stallie]

The purpose of the identical circles is to show the relative distances of the area that the navy / coastwatch have to cover for those living on the east coast. As you can see - it's like trying to control all of Eastern Australia, SA, half the NT, the Tasman to NZ, and halfway to Antarctica. Yes, that is a lot of water.

The reason the Sydney circle doesn't look like a circle is that the chart is projected as Lamberts (flat). With an orthographic projection, they will appear as both circles on a round earth, but as they are so far apart, the important bits (west of Cocos and East to NZ) are disappearing around the edges of the earth.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/996.jpg

The red border is the international SAR boundary for Australia. We are not obliged to help beyond that - but will when required (i.e. Indos requesting help for the boats heading southwards, or that teenage sailor who was just in Mauritius side of the border a couple of years ago).

[d2dave]

As others have said I don't quite understand why these people don't just apply for asylum in another country, rather than risking their lives to get to Australia, but then again I have the first world luxury of not being in that position in the first place.

This can be answered in one word. CENTRELINK.

[bob10]

As someone who has a family with a long navel and military history I today stand ashamed at the Australian Customs action of not retrieving the bodies of the lost that drowned off Christmas Island. How can a country allow these bodies to float in the ocean as fish food. Shame Australia, Yes this is political and probably not the place to air it, but at the moment I am very disgusted, ****ed off, with my country's action. Advance Australia fair, Bull****.

Allan

Allan, I admire your humanity, but what would you do? Have them spend time picking up the dead, or searching for the living. If you were in the water, waiting, .........., I know your answer. Bob