New Model Defender - more non info

[FenianEel]

Nothing really new here, think they're just trying to give a glimpse into what they're thinking/planning.

Land Rover 2015 Defender - No new Land Rover Defender until at least 2016 | GoAuto (http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C8F2ADFC5410F35ECA257B95007D9FC2)

[Pickles2]

Yes....It will be interesting to see how long it will be before any REAL clues are released.....I note in one of the quoted articles that L.R. say they will release "some" details of the "New" Defender, "WAY BEFORE" its release date?
I've got no idea....but, I'll be watching.
Cheers, Pickles.

[JamesB71]

They refer to their current market as "ageing traditionalists".

I suppose that shoe fits.....

[juddy]

Its a valid point, if they don't move with the times then why bother.

[ezyrama]

If they can make the Disco 4 comply in every country with such a boxy shape then why not use the same basic platform as a starting point for the new Defender, but they have to keep the live axles.

[FenianEel]

16000 a year worldwide is not sustainable, and only Land Rover would continue to do that, thankfully :D

As an example in April, nationwide there were

44 Defenders sold
2100 Hiluxs
1274 Rangers
875 Colorados

I just hope they don't price/luxury themselves out of potential sales.
They really should've re-developed it years ago.
By not doing so, they've just handed the utility & wagon, fleet/govt/mining sector over to Toyota, and Ford/Mazda & Holden are catching up.

I love the "basicness and utilitarianess" of them, and the fact they still look like a series vehicle.
Unfortunately, the majority of the buying public doesn't.

[Pickles2]

When We walked into the Dealership where we eventually bought our "90", there wasn't one to be seen....several Range Rovers, Jaguars etc...we were almost embarrassed to ask about a Defender.
However, when we mentioned "Defender" the sales lady's face lit up....she was most enthusiastic...."We love our Defenders" she said...going on to tell us about some she had sold.
Cheers, Pickles.

[TerryO]

They could do worse than use the D3/4 chassis as the new Defender platform. To say it is robust is an understatement, equally so if they were going to keep it affordable then chances are independent suspension will be what you get.

Sure they could if they wanted make it look a lot more like a Defender, which would be good, but changing the chassis for straight axles could be hard and expensive.

You can buy complete airshock suspension struts for around $400 now so it is very affordable to replace the suspension when it is worn out, which by the way is in 99% of cases why you replace them because now it is very reliable. The electronics have also come a long way since 2005 when first introduced.

This might upset traditionalists but by 2016-17-18 when ever the new Fender is released then chances are many of those traditionalists will be of an age that means they have already bought their last Defender, so LR is unlikely to do much more than pay lip service to what the so called 'old timers' say.

Anyway it would be good to see all you blokes driving new Discovery's, sorry I meant Defenders of course. .... :p;)

[Cobber]

However, when we mentioned "Defender" the sales lady's face lit up....she was most enthusiastic...."We love our Defenders" she said...going on to tell us about some she had sold.I wonder if you had asked about a Freelander you would have got the same result? :D

Still, it's nice to see there is still enthusiastic sales people out there - it clearly made a difference if you bought a car :cool::BigThumb:

[ezyrama]

Your not calling me old are you Terry??;). The main problem I see with LandRover is they dont even market the Defender, everytime you see an ad on the idiot box, they sprout all sorts of rhetoric on sales on all the other models but all you ever see is a photo of one in the last scene jammed up the back as if its an embarrasement to them. I just dont get it!. If you dont market it, how the hell are you supposed to sell them?

Cheers Ian

[cjc_td5]

Your not calling me old are you Terry??;). The main problem I see with LandRover is they dont even market the Defender, everytime you see an ad on the idiot box, they sprout all sorts of rhetoric on sales on all the other models but all you ever see is a photo of one in the last scene jammed up the back as if its an embarrasement to them. I just dont get it!. If you dont market it, how the hell are you supposed to sell them?

Cheers Ian

I think the main issue with defenders is not demand but supply. I wanted to take a new 110 wagon for a test drive the other week, there was not one new in WA. The dealer said he can sell any defenders he can get his hands on and the next shipment was not until August (only two vehicles to his dealership). He can't sell 'em if he can't get 'em.

[Dobby]

I agree with Ezyrama. The marketing, or lack of thereof, that they seem to do for the defenders is pretty ordinary. A few nearby Land Rover dealerships are busy advertising an upcoming special offer weekend and they include the Range Rover, Discovery and the Freelander but don't include the Defender at all. I went to have a test drive just recently and they didn't have a 110 in stock and the salesman said they would have to order one in from the U.K. I did get to drive a 90 and was impressed with that, but it is ultimately a 110 of a 130 that I'm after.

It appears that Land Rover couldn't be bothered with the Defender and have just left the market open for Nissans, Toyota's etc, which in my opinion seem to be over rated and over priced.

What shortfalls does the Defender have that they need to discontinue them? Is it the lack of airbags etc or is the general shape that makes them not comply with new safety standards? I'd imagine that there is not much difference shape and safety wise than the Land Cruiser utes and troopy's.

[FenianEel]

What shortfalls does the Defender have that they need to discontinue them? Is it the lack of airbags etc or is the general shape that makes them not comply with new safety standards?
Yes.
No airbags, no ESP, no NCAP rating, & it doesn't comply with emission regs, in most markets.
It's still a hand made car, that's expensive and time consuming to produce.


I'd imagine that there is not much difference shape and safety wise than the Land Cruiser utes and troopy's.
There's a fair bit actually, but the 70 series is getting phased out, and there are no plans to replace it.
It's only just got ABS in the latest model, but it'll never be 5 star rated, so Toyota are pushing the Hilux, and up speccing it.

[ProjectDirector]

16000 a year worldwide is not sustainable, and only Land Rover would continue to do that, thankfully :D

As an example in April, nationwide there were

44 Defenders sold
2100 Hiluxs
1274 Rangers
875 Colorados

I just hope they don't price/luxury themselves out of potential sales.
They really should've re-developed it years ago.
By not doing so, they've just handed the utility & wagon, fleet/govt/mining sector over to Toyota, and Ford/Mazda & Holden are catching up.

I love the "basicness and utilitarianess" of them, and the fact they still look like a series vehicle.
Unfortunately, the majority of the buying public doesn't.

I love the defender the way it is except it needs to be seriously soundproofed, my ear are ringing after a couple of hours on the highway.

[Brett1066]

I think the Defender is an awesome vehicle, as a 4x4 there aren't too many places it can't go. My 94 Defender has gotten us out to some godforsaken places over the years, and always got us home again. It will be a crying shame to see them discontinued. I mean, sure, they are noisy, not the most comfortable at times, constantly need attention (well, mine does:p), but that just adds to the character.
As for the advertising, or lack of it, I don't think that necessarily a bad thing - I mean, would you really want to see every Tom, Dick and Harry driving them, just because they are "popular"? Keep your Prado's, Hilux's, Patrols and the rest - just leave me my Defender!

[Loubrey]

The problem in the future would be that even if they continue building them somewhere else like India, we will end up in the same situation as in America.

Not sure of the exact date, but Australia is very soon (in the next couple of years) going to ban the sale of new cars without electronic stability control (various names for it) as well as cars without a minimum amount of airbags. This is the main reason the LC70 series is being phased out without plan for a replacement. There is actually risk of the sale of new Defenders being banned before Land Rover stops making them...

That will also mean that it would be illegal to import a Defender as we know it now into Australia same as it is in the US. Existing cars won't (shouldn't!!! :eek:) be affected, but with townie politicians you never know and we might even get banned from city centers.

Buy them now and treasure them!

Live axles don't work well with crumple zones and it is safe to assume that our Defenders are the very last Land Rovers ever with live axles (in the front at least). I imagine the very best we can hope for is a slightly "industrialized" or "toughened up" Discovery 4 type vehicle.

Cheers,

Lou

[jimr1]

When I brought my td5 I thought it will do for a few years , and I will look at the new Defender when it comes out ! Well the due date keeps going forward , at this rate I'll be useing a Zimmer Frame , I must say I still like the td5 :D jimr1

[Blade74]

I've always loved Defenders since I was young and used to ride in my friends grandfathers one through the bush in the back side bench seats.
He used to go hunting rabbits with ferrets and also clear paths through the bush around his property by towing a sled.
I always new I'd buy one eventually and was going to wait till I was older. Glad I recently bought a TD5 a few months ago because in many years time it will be harder to find a great old classic defender in good condition.

[Olli]

I know that there are numerous threads on the new Defender. However, check out the blog at http://defender15.blogspot.nl/ (http://defender15.blogspot.nl/) which is intended to bring all thoughts together in one place and ultimately come up with what we - (prospective) users of Defender - think the new Defender should look like. The idea is to come up with a concrete design proposal, one that will definiely do away with the sour aftertaste of DC 100. I have set some ground rules for myself and have posted some rough sketches. I would appreciate all constructive criticism and thoughts. Feel free to send in your sketches too if you wish to share. You can comment on the blogsite or on this thread. Let's show JLR what we want.

Best,
Olli

[dullbird]

Olli its very lovely but the defender is going to cease production in 2015???

[JDNSW]

Olli,

The problem with that blog is that it is almost entirely about appearance. Certainly appearance is a significant factor, but by no means the most important feature. Some of the more important factors that I see in a new Defender design (no particular order):-

Flat glass throughout - makes replacements cheaper at least in part because storage and shipping of glass is a lot cheaper.

All glass must be near vertical and kept as small as is practical to reduce heat buildup when parked in the sun. Almost all current cars are designed by people who live in a cold climate and think the more sun the better. If Jeep can do this, so can Landrover.

Lights should be generic type - means you can get them anywhere. In the same way, tyre size should be one widely used, at least as an option.

Floor and door sills same level for ease of hosing out.

Multiple body types and wheelbases with the most important being trayback and dual cab trayback to compete with rival utility types.

As with the current Defender, payload and towing capacity greater than competitors.

Long travel suspension with plenty of clearance round wheels for mud, sticks etc.

Price must be comparable to competitors in the utility market - e.g. Hilux

Approach, departure and breakover angles must be no worse than current models.

Wading depth not less than current models.

And, of course, it must be durable and maintainable, even in the bush.

Must be designed so as not to be crippled by impact with a 70kg animal at 110km/hr. (Failing this, factory roo bar should be available)

Some features which are not available on the current Defender are so obvious that they should not need mentioning - for example, effective dustproofing, ergonomics to fit large, well fed twenty-first century Australians or Americans, not depression and war ravaged 1940s Englishmen, airconditioning that works well.

The basic Defender design was established in the late 1940s in circumstances very different from those that apply today. Unfortunately, the design of cars today is very much more constrained by regulation than was the case then, and an innovative design such as appeared then is almost impossible. Because of the regulations that have to be met, the basic design of a car costs so much that it must be produced in very large numbers to break even. (In 1948 Rover had to use available engines, gearbox, diffs etc, but these did not constrain the basic design nearly as much - although for example, the Rover engines made the chassis width (same today) greater than the Jeep that the other dimensions were copied from.)This means that a new Defender must share a platform and basic design with a mass market car, or be designed so that it will be a mass market car itself. Neither is likely to produce a vehicle that will really live up to the heritage of the original, but Landrover has no other option.

John

[Pedro_The_Swift]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/752.jpg

[Trundle]

The biggest problem I see with this is that if they follow this path we're going to end up with something like the FJ Cruiser. A plastic "retro" styled car with limited options that does no justice to the original but encourages more posers to think they are cool. The defender is what it is, a piece of motoring history that was and is great. But doesn't deserve to be bastardised to fit into today's safety regulated market. Let it grow old disgracefully and not become another piece of plastic crap that has lost its character. Drive what we have now and enjoy it.

[Orkney 90]

Well said Trundle, I couldn't agree more! I really liked the original FJ's, though not as much as the Defender. But I wouldn't drive the new plastic version if it was given to me free and I was being paid to drive it. I think I'll hold on to my Defender to the very end...

[Loubrey]

Well said Trundle, I couldn't agree more! I really liked the original FJ's, though not as much as the Defender. But I wouldn't drive the new plastic version if it was given to me free and I was being paid to drive it. I think I'll hold on to my Defender to the very end...

X2!!!

No vehicle with live front axles can make it past the qualifications for the relevant NCAP rating for partial frontal impact and crumple zones. The full 5 star rating doesn't even relate to the vehicle itself, but what it does to pedestrians and other cars…The fact remains that in 2015 the live axle will forever leave Land Rover manufacture with only a remote possibility for high load rear axles, but even that most unlikely.

I think we all have to be realistic and accept that there is no chance what so ever for the new "Defender" to do anything other take the spirit and culture of the Defender forward in a new world package. Hopefully it is a well though out "new" vehicle and not some pathetic attempt to stay "retro"…

Having said that, we might even end up pleasantly sup prised, but I'm ver aware that the 2% that wants to kill the designers are almost all on this forum!!!:D:D:D

Cheers,

Lou

[Homestar]

When We walked into the Dealership where we eventually bought our "90", there wasn't one to be seen....several Range Rovers, Jaguars etc...we were almost embarrassed to ask about a Defender.
However, when we mentioned "Defender" the sales lady's face lit up....she was most enthusiastic...."We love our Defenders" she said...going on to tell us about some she had sold.
Cheers, Pickles.

I got the complete opposite when I tried to by a 90 a couple of years ago. The dealer I went to wasn't interested and told me there were none in the Country. I found out after that there were a couple in NSW - they didn't even bother to check before fobbing me off. I can only imagine they were only interested in selling the top end stuff. Very disappointed, and they won't increase their sales of them either with an attitude like that.

[Olli]

Just put up some more ass-end variations : New Land Rover Defender (http://defender15.blogspot.nl/)

Looking forward to your comments.

Best,

Olli

[goingbush]

lots of good points JD , just going to add some comments.




Flat glass throughout - makes replacements cheaper at least in part because storage and shipping of glass is a lot cheaper.

you would think so but a new tinted screen for my 2006 Landcruiser cost less than a new non tinted front screen for my MY 05 Defender




Lights should be generic type - means you can get them anywhere. In the same way, tyre size should be one widely used, at least as an option.

Floor and door sills same level for ease of hosing out.

Multiple body types and wheelbases with the most important being trayback and dual cab trayback to compete with rival utility types.

As with the current Defender, payload and towing capacity greater than competitors.

Long travel suspension with plenty of clearance round wheels for mud, sticks etc.
agreed, round wheels are always a good thing :)

Price must be comparable to competitors in the utility market - e.g. Hilux

Approach, departure and breakover angles must be no worse than current models.



Wading depth not less than current models.
current model = 500mm is pretty **** poor



And, of course, it must be durable and maintainable, even in the bush.
well that rules out it being English made, hopefully the Indians will fare better


Must be designed so as not to be crippled by impact with a 70kg animal at 110km/hr. (Failing this, factory roo bar should be available)

Some features which are not available on the current Defender are so obvious that they should not need mentioning - for example, effective dustproofing, ergonomics to fit large, well fed twenty-first century Australians or Americans, not depression and war ravaged 1940s Englishmen, airconditioning that works well.


The basic Defender design was established in the late 1940s in circumstances very different from those that apply today. Unfortunately, the design of cars today is very much more constrained by regulation than was the case then, and an innovative design such as appeared then is almost impossible. Because of the regulations that have to be met, the basic design of a car costs so much that it must be produced in very large numbers to break even. (In 1948 Rover had to use available engines, gearbox, diffs etc, but these did not constrain the basic design nearly as much - although for example, the Rover engines made the chassis width (same today) greater than the Jeep that the other dimensions were copied from.)This means that a new Defender must share a platform and basic design with a mass market car, or be designed so that it will be a mass market car itself. Neither is likely to produce a vehicle that will really live up to the heritage of the original, but Landrover has no other option.

John

Interestingly, seems the Italians are listening, reading thru your list my new truck hits the mark with all your criteria, except that the windscreen is slightly curved and leaning back at about 40deg, all other glass is flat and vertical.

[jimr1]

This has been a good post , For me I would like a bit more power , a bit more side room , to be quieter , and have better water and dust seals . It would be nice to see it well made ( build quality ) with room for after market bits .ie, CBs , electric break controllers turbo timers , all the little ad ons that personalize our trucks . We don't have any say in the design rules Land Rover will have to comply with , I think that they will carry over some of the genes and give us a good new Defender , only time will tell ..:)

[Bush65]

Electric break controller! Now that would sell well.

Sorry, I knew you meant brake controller, but couldn't resist.

[cooperrat]

no,was break, the doors only open at meal times to let you out !!!!!

[mools]

ergonomics to fit large, well fed twenty-first century Australians or Americans, not depression and war ravaged 1940s Englishmen
John

I actually like the fact that I have rarely (if ever) met a fat Defender driver. :D:D:D

Ian

[Olli]

Just posted some front end concepts: http://defender15.blogspot.nl/ (http://defender15.blogspot.nl/). what do you guys think?

Rgds
Olli

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I think the standard defender grill and black spot headlights surrounds need to stay, no doubt whatever the current corporate headlight is will be used.

[rangietragic]

Not bad Olli,whatever the new one is based on,to me it still needs to have some styling cues that says defender.Just like the range rover,2nd,3rd and 4th generation still look like a range rover.I have always liked the way land rovers all look like land rovers,you don't have to go up and look at the badge to see what it is,unlike a lot of current model vehicles that look like the same people designed them.

[Homestar]

Not bad Olli,whatever the new one is based on,to me it still needs to have some styling cues that says defender.Just like the range rover,2nd,3rd and 4th generation still look like a range rover.I have always liked the way land rovers all look like land rovers,you don't have to go up and look at the badge to see what it is,unlike a lot of current model vehicles that look like the same people designed them.

4th gen RR has lost most of the design cues that made it great. It looks like it was put together by a blind pre schooler...

[Drover]

I actually like the fact that I have rarely (if ever) met a fat Defender driver. :D:D:D

Ian

Interesting that the crusader of racism is okay with other forms of discrimination.

Are you drunk ?

Not so squeaky clean after all ..... Hey.

[Defender Mike]

Get hold of a good one and look after it . They last forever with a bit of tlc . Look at my old 109 55 years old and still going strong gets driven every day . I hope my new 90 will last as long even if I'm not around in another 55 years.
Mike

[30t of coolness]

I think you'll have better luck with the 109 still going in another 50 years. If you can afford the fuel & chiropractors bills.;)

[goingbush]

Interesting that the crusader of racism is okay with other forms of discrimination.

Are you drunk ?

Not so squeaky clean after all ..... Hey.

Are you kidding, or are you fat ??

PC gone mad, An over weight person is Fat , no matter male or female. FAT FAT FAT

Or are Fat Defender drivers snobbish and want to be called Portly instead ??

and I'm not drunk . I could easily Drop 20KG and have no problems fitting in the Defender.

It's funny I have a notion that most Defender drivers are Skinny and have a Beard , are you offended by the words Skinny & Bearded ?? why do so many people have a problem with the use of in-context adjectives :confused:

[Drover]

Are you kidding, or are you fat ??

PC gone mad, An over weight person is Fat , no matter male or female. FAT FAT FAT

Or are Fat Defender drivers snobbish and want to be called Portly instead ??

and I'm not drunk . I could easily Drop 20KG and have no problems fitting in the Defender.

It's funny I have a notion that most Defender drivers are Skinny and have a Beard , are you offended by the words Skinny & Bearded ?? why do so many people have a problem with the use of in-context adjectives :confused:

Hey GB,

I'm not offended at all.....really and PC is totaly out of control !

My post was for mools, who a couple of weeks ago, chose to have a crack at me for another harmless post.

And for the record I'm 180cm and 85kg's.......

Cheers

[Sitec]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/752.jpg

Why do I like this!!!??? Don't exactly know why, but I do! Someone said that live front axles are going to be a thing of the past...... Uh? The new Land Cruiser has one.... Any semi, bus, tractor, has a solid beam front axle.... What happened to the common sense society where stepping in front of cars and trucks was a no no?? Why do vehicles have to change??? Oh well, rant over! :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I think the front needs a bit of work,,
but otherwise its gunna be close to what you get,

[goingbush]

looks like we are going round in circles

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/750.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/751.jpg

Whatever it looks like its going to have to have some visual cues from a traditional Defender .
More so than a FJ Cruiser has to a 40 Series Cruiser (which is bugger all)

If a Jeep Wrangler can still look like a WW2 Jeep and have Live axles then the Landrover has to follow suit.

[camel_landy]

looks like we are going round in circles.
Going round in circles...

...or getting thrown off the scent???


If a Jeep Wrangler can still look like a WW2 Jeep and have Live axles then the Landrover has to follow suit.
What's this obsession with 'Live Axles'? Why not define WHAT it has to do rather than define HOW it must do it???

Frankly, almost every other car in the range is far superior in off-road abilities, compared to the Defender.

M

[RVR110]

Frankly, almost every other car in the range is far superior in off-road abilities, compared to the Defender.That may be true when comparing cars on the showroom floor. But if is true, then whilst we see D3s & D4s when we do the mid-level tracks, why don't we see more current model non-defenders doing the more challenging trips (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-act-reports/179083-watagans-28-07-2013-a.html)?
Perhaps it's just the price tag makes the current model Discos and RRs less capable...:wasntme:

Price aside, a Defender can be modified to an extent that no other car in the LR stable can be. Keeping the discussion strictly to current model Land Rovers, I don't think it would be true to say that a highly modified disco or a highly modified RR would be far superior in off-road abilities compared to a highly modified Defender.

FWIW, I agree with you about WHAT rather than HOW. In 2016 I'm expecting to be in the market for a replacement for my current MY13, so I'm very interested in seeing what the new Defender is like especially if there's an automatic version with a decent sized engine and plenty of scope for after market accessories and modifications. I can wait until the launch though - the hype and speculation don't really do much for me.

[XDrive]

The problems associated with any new vehicle are also linked to the markets that they sell in. Defenders do not sell in the USA which makes any development work amortised over the sales high and therefore pushes up the cost of teh vehicle. In Australia we have to contend with stability contro which again is very hard to retrofit to a live axle vehicle NCAP ratingas are also poor and most states won't even contemplate a vehicle taht is not as a minimum at least 3 stars. Pedestrian safety is anothe area where the Defender falls short. The majority of people would like a capable vehicle but also a comfortable vehicle hence the increase in the number of dual cab type vehicles which have become more and more car like. A/C and all the little cup holders for your coffee as well as easy to drive (no industrial strength clutches) easy to park and easy to have serviced (abundance of dealers) is what the average person is interested in. Like everyone else on this forum just because we like to use our vehicles for the purpose that they were intended certainly does not place us in the majority and vehicle manufacturers cater for the majority, hence the prolific number of Four Wheel Drive vehicles sold today, that direct from the showroom floor are incapable of undertaking most 'off-road' trips. They can be modified by the minority who wish to use them but this also has it drawbacks especially with NCOP and other limitations making it harder and harder to modify modern vehicles for any kind of off road work. When you are only selling 2% of what the other manufacturers are selling then the amount of interest you can generate is limited. However compare the Land Rover Discovery to it's rivals such as the LandCruiser 200 series and others and you can see that the sales figures are now much more comparable. Bear in mind that the 2014 Land Rover Discovery will also be more 'road orientated' having a single range transfer box which will also mean that it is no longer as capable as the present Discovery. Will this ultimately affect the sales. I do not think so as I have stated earlier most Discovery owners will be happy to take their vehicle along a mild 'fire road' or on the beach and in these situations they will perform most admirably. It is a fact that the most capable vehicle in the Land Rover stable is arguably the latest Range Rover although I doubt that you will see many of them taken 'off road' Fact is that most Four Wheel Drives have now become status symbols for most people who can only really imagine what it is liek to drive a vehicle 'off road'. Designer mud or 'spray on mud' may become more popular as people try to justify their purchase to their peers.
Unfortunately we will always be in the minority and that is a shame. The Land Rover defender unfortunately is going the same way as the Mercedes Benz G-Wagon. Due to the high percentage of 'hand' assembled parts and low volume these most capable vehicles will slowly disappear from our roads and will unfortunately only be produced in low numbers for emergency services, army and disaster relief organisations. Even in Africa, which was for many years the domain of the Land Rovers has been overtaken by the Toyota Hi-Lux.
If you want a Defender, best you buy what you can get now before they are either legislated off the road or just no longer available unless as a 'special import' at a horrendouusly high price.Manufacturing teh Land Rover Defender in India will not solve the legislation issues encountered around the world and was one of the reasons why Land Rover stopped selling the Defender in the USA many years ago. The good thing is that the price of second hand models should hold their value and in some cases may even increase in value as time goes on.

[voltron]

This makes me want to buy a brand new 13o and put it in storage.

[Lagerfan]

This makes me want to buy a brand new 13o and put it in storage.

MrsLagers and I are just discussing exactly that! Defender x 2 that is...

[rangietragic]

Buy the very last model defender and put that in storage.Iwould if i could:)

[harro]

I have an 02 Xtreme and I am nowhere near even thinking of upgrade/selling it.
Lots of mods and trips only so it only has 107k on it.
I love the thing and if I have my way I will be buried with it:D.

So new Defender come what may, it would want to be pretty damn good for me to even look at it.
I can see a Defender coming a mile away and so can the the better half.
She loves them too, god bless her:).
She rolls her eyes at the wave but with a grin all over her face:D.

We actually talked about a D4 the other day and she said quote "you couldn't possibly let the Defender go so what would you do with a Discovery" and that gents was the end of that.

We have survived for this long without airbags and stability control etc. etc. etc. because we bloody well know how to drive the things.

Just keep it simple, I am sure most of us know how to do the rest:BigThumb:.

Cheers,:twobeers:
Paul

[bidds]

I'm actually hoping they do something quite different, albeit with some of the classic design cues and rugged versatility.

I'm keeping my RRC forever but will change the D2a out if the next Defender is interesting enough (and not priced through the roof). While the current models are great (driven my dad's a bit) I think they can do much more if taking a clean'ish sheet approach.

I'd like to see the chassis from the d3/4, in at least two wheel bases (probably 100 and 130) with the hose out simplicity of the Defender. After driving a mates D3 in some very rough off road situations, I think they're brilliant: doesn't need large wheels, lift and lockers to go pretty much anywhere you'd take a non-comp truck. The airbags handle corrugations better than anything and allow it to drop on the road for better handling.

It should have the 800/900mm wading height of the latest Rangie - and a factory snorkel option for a reasonable price.

Automatic. It'd be really neat if they could do an 8 or 9 speed box with the lower 3/4 gears truly low range and the top 4/5 gears for road running - that'd save the weight and complexity of a transfer case (assuming the gearbox has an output to front). I'm thinking flappy paddles for manual override - probably like (I think) the Mitsubishi Evo's where they're fixed to the column rather than the wheel. When off road in tricky conditions you need to know exactly where the shifter is, not chase a turning wheel. The gearbox must allow oil changes though - none of this 'sealed for life' business.

Large fuel capacity, 150 litres min; spare wheel on a full width back door, not underneath.

And the rear seats (up to two rows of three seats) should be easily removable like in the back of a Prado, leaving a large, basically flat, hose-out interior that can be easily reconfigured or customised. With side airbags, you could have metal surfaces in the back, making mods and maintenance easier than the discos.

Oooh, and the option of a Safari roof. Had them on some of our old S2a/S3 - brilliant in the hotter parts of the world.

Enough dreaming... I just hope it's not as disappointing as the 'new' Mustang. It's nice I suppose but an opportunity lost.

[tbdefender]

I loved this explanation of a commitment to a schedule:

"it will be in the second half of this decade, hopefully in the first half of the second half of this decade.”

haha made me laugh :D

[frantic]

What's this obsession with 'Live Axles'? Why not define WHAT it has to do rather than define HOW it must do it???

Frankly, almost every other car in the range is far superior in off-road abilities, compared to the Defender.

M

Stock 3/5 maybe but you would hope so for 50-400% more $$$$!
Now let's spend $10,000 of the $20,000 difference between a defender and disco. 2in Gwyneth Lewis + shocks ,springs, arms, prop etc $2500. , Ashcroft rear locker and axles 1500 front axles an cvs 1000 4.11 gears front n back 1000 -25 mm wheels and 35 in tyres 2500. Winch bar and long range tank 1500. Now for $10,000 less than a base model disco you have a defender 110 wagon that will go far further, carry far more with better articulation.
Do the same maths for a tourer set up eliminating common parts like bar winch towbar etc.
The same arguments could be used for the jeep wrangler compared to the GC but they woke up far earlier than LR. That modifiability sells! They sell the Rubicon to promote this and have a large range of Gear to customise the jeep in whichever direction. Instead LR have done a few bling packs of paint and wheels. Imagine a highlander pack similar to the Rubicon unlimited, Ashcroft all round ,4.11 diffs, lockers and 33's from the factory, dream On :D

[Deefa]

Well said Trundle, I couldn't agree more! I really liked the original FJ's, though not as much as the Defender. But I wouldn't drive the new plastic version if it was given to me free and I was being paid to drive it. I think I'll hold on to my Defender to the very end...

Maybe if they gave me free fuel as well i would think about it. ..............No your right id still drive the defender.

[Deefa]

The thing I like about the defender is the fact that its so simple and just begs to be modified and bits screwed onto it and parts cut and modified etc. Everything is square and easy to make bits fit!

I hate cars with beeps and alarms. Your reversing out the driveway and its beeping at you PUT YOUR SEAT BELT ON, PUT YOUR SEAT BELT ON. Beep beep YOU LEFT YOUR LIGHTS ON beep beep A DOOR IS OPEN, Beep Beep YOUR WIPER WATER IS LOW. In the defender it dosent give a rats what you do, you leave the lights on the batterys flat. Life lesson - consequences

Thinking that 2015 will be a big year for the Defender if thats the last of them,
we may have to get in line for one.......Now I have only about a year to convince the finance minister.

[Olli]

Just posted sideview concepts: New Land Rover Defender: sidewinder (http://defender15.blogspot.nl/2013/12/sidewinder.html)

Let me know what you think

Rgds
Olli

[Olli]

Sideview update: New Land Rover Defender (http://defender15.blogspot.nl/)

[uninformed]

Nice drawings. IMO the doors are too short. Push your rear wheel back, loose some overhang and make at least the front door longer.

Again, IMO the new SWB should be 100inch and the middle probably 114/115.

If you want that nice short bonnet, you can not tuck your legs into the engine bay. With a short door, a normal person has their head at the B pillar. Not great for vison and not great for whacking your head on the seatbelt attachement...

[goingbush]

I think I have found the next defender, Fix the grill to make it less jeep like , Job done.


http://blog.avto-salon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/baw2.jpg

http://blog.avto-salon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/baw3.jpg

China makes a Land Rover | Autocar (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows/china-makes-land-rover#)

[voltron]

The amount of comments I get about the Defender has suprised me. 'Nice Truck' is the most common I get from people just walking by. I wouldnt be suprised if another company takes all the styling cues and ability ideas of the Defender and bring it into the fruition. Toyota may already be onto it with a revised newly named LC.

[coolumboy]

I love how Jeep has managed to produce an off roader that from all accounts is pretty awesome both off road and on road. Maybe Land Rover could learn a lesson? I love my defender. Basic works for me, however I have driven tractors which are more user friendly. The Defender must move with the times and be sold to a wider demographic, just as long as a bare basic model is still offered I think all bases can be covered.

[PAT303]

What Jeep is awesome offroad?. Pat

[Dopey]

What Jeep is awesome offroad?. Pat

This jeep is awesome off road Pat,
Where ever the 101 can go, so can the jeep!

N.b. photo pinched from here,

Sand, Wind and Stars - LRDG, 70 years on: A tight fit. (http://lrdgroutesrevistited.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/tight-fit.html)

There was also an article about this setup in one of the recent Land rover magazines.

Mike.

[dawsey]

What Jeep is awesome offroad?. Pat
my boss has a early 1950.s willy..its great fun out in the scrub..

[Wicks89]

I think Pat303 was referring to modern Jeeps, such as the wrangler, which are crap IMO. I like the way they retained their live axle suspension but TBH Ive been in a few and theyre bloody garbage poser cars. Made for hair dressers to drive with the roofs off.

It angers me a bit that lots of people want the Defender to go down the SUV path, when to my mind Land Rover should conceptually go back to the Defenders PURPOSE. It's a TRACTOR.

Keep the suspension (it's not broken) give it a bigger Donk, put some airbags in it, slant the windscreen back some more and put some nicer seats in it, maybe with a rubberised floor. Bobs your mothers brother.

[JDNSW]

.... slant the windscreen back some more ....

No, this is one of the vehicles major advantages over the opposition, living as we do in a sunny climate.

But I agree with just about everything else, except, perhaps the bigger engine, which is almost certainly an impossibility down the track, although perhaps possible today.

John

[PAT303]

The bigger engine with auto will come with the ''new'' Defender,it would've been nice if Ford made the TDCi a 3ltre four but they didn't so we have what we have. Pat

[PAT303]

No, this is one of the vehicles major advantages over the opposition, living as we do in a sunny climate.

But I agree with just about everything else, except, perhaps the bigger engine, which is almost certainly an impossibility down the track, although perhaps possible today.

John

My Hilux in a normal Newman summer day would get so hot if I parked it towards the sun that when I got in it it would suck the air from my chest,I think it would've been easy to cooks eggs on the front seat in that unreliable POS. Pat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The new Defer will obviously have an Ingenium engine. the baby is a 4 cylinder 2L. they say the engine family is scalable,, but not how.

[Dorian]

The bigger engine with auto will come with the ''new'' Defender,it would've been nice if Ford made the TDCi a 3ltre four but they didn't so we have what we have. Pat

I reckon I've got about a foot and a half between the front of my 2.2 engine and the radiator. The ford 3.2 5 cylinder would fit in there easy as. Don't know if the auto would fit in the existing transmission tunnel though

[PAT303]

I'm not convinced the 3.2 is better than the 2.4/2.2,it takes off quicker but the Ranger is lighter.A long stroke 3.0ltre is the go for a Defender. Pat

[Wicks89]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicks89 View Post
.... slant the windscreen back some more ....
No, this is one of the vehicles major advantages over the opposition, living as we do in a sunny climate.

But I agree with just about everything else, except, perhaps the bigger engine, which is almost certainly an impossibility down the track, although perhaps possible today.

John

JDNSW Yeah trust me I agree with the current windscreen position, I meant that LR are obviously going to try streamline this thing so rather than rebuild the whole lot just tilt it a bit more and away we go.

The thing that gets to me about LR and defender at the moment is that each year the engine capacity has decreased. I understand performance has increased, but you cant tell me that we're getting something for nothing. Something has got to give, surely if you're pulling more out of less that you are effecting longevity?
I dont want an abhorrent toyota style V8 4.5. But surely theres something to be said for keeping some size, especially when the D4 and RR Sports are still rocking 2.7 etc?

Can someone please enlighten me? Is LR forced to comply with some sort of environmental restriction in Europe that is tightening every year? Because how on earth can Toyota release a 4.5L v8 solid axle rig when LR just keeps getting smaller?

[Beery]

I'm not convinced the 3.2 is better than the 2.4/2.2,it takes off quicker but the Ranger is lighter.A long stroke 3.0ltre is the go for a Defender. Pat

Got to agree with you there Pat. I drive a 3.2 Ranger at work everyday and the engine is harsh and noisy and has a flat spot as wide as the main street of Trundle. Goes well on the highway, but around town it feels slow, heavy and reluctant to rev.
In comparison the 2.2 in the Defender feels almost sprightly! Never thought I'd use the words 'Defender' and 'sprightly' in the same sentence.

Tom

[JDNSW]

Despite historically selling worldwide, the Defender's primary market is, and always has been Europe - and yes, there are and have been restrictions on engine size in a number of their markets.

In theory, and increasingly in practice, engine capacity is disconnected from power and torque once you have some form of supercharging. With all engines likely to be considered being turbocharged, and increasingly stringent environmental restrictions in a lot of markets, there are very good reasons why a utility vehicle such as the Defender has a small (but relatively powerful) engine, and a new design is likely to move further in this direction, whether we like it or not. Which is not to say performance will decrease - increased use of aluminium will mean lighter vehicles and hence less need for more power.

John

[Wicks89]

Despite historically selling worldwide, the Defender's primary market is, and always has been Europe - and yes, there are and have been restrictions on engine size in a number of their markets.

In theory, and increasingly in practice, engine capacity is disconnected from power and torque once you have some form of supercharging. With all engines likely to be considered being turbocharged, and increasingly stringent environmental restrictions in a lot of markets, there are very good reasons why a utility vehicle such as the Defender has a small (but relatively powerful) engine, and a new design is likely to move further in this direction, whether we like it or not. Which is not to say performance will decrease - increased use of aluminium will mean lighter vehicles and hence less need for more power.

John

Thanks,

I knew there had to be a reason for it! Thanks for giving me the scoop.

[MLD]

Can someone please enlighten me? Is LR forced to comply with some sort of environmental restriction in Europe that is tightening every year? Because how on earth can Toyota release a 4.5L v8 solid axle rig when LR just keeps getting smaller?

John touched on it, so I'll just add 2c. In the EU the emissions are assessed across the portfolio of vehicles of a manufacturer to meet a combined target. For every V8 you need the comparable small capacity engine (not necessarily 1 to 1 because its based on CO2 and CO emissions from that engine). LR have bit of a dilemma, their volume sales are the Range Rovers which typically have larger capacity engines with higher CO2 and emission values. The defender is small volume in sales and gets lumped with the Evoques and Freelanders to compensate the higher volume sales of the Range Rover. It also fits with the traditional engine size of the LR defender as a follow on from the Series series. Save for the V8 country, the vast majority of LR's since the Series series to the defender range has been small capacity suitable to trundle along in the paddock and into town. The defender was not designed with the wide open expanse of Oz and Africa in mind.

Turning to Toyota, broad portfolio of vehicles and high volume sales of small engine vehicles (read low emissions) thus they get to smile about a thirsty, inefficient V8 diesel donk because the Cruiser is a blip on their emissions across the portfolio. Also Toyota don't have the same foothold in the EU so are not necessarily affected by the tighter emission regs. Put another way, Toyota probably don't or need to sell the Cruiser V8 in the EU. If they do, their combined target compensates for the V8.

We in Oz are a generation behind the EU on emissions regs. Manufacturers in the EU are designing for EURO6 emission targets. Manufacturers wanting to sell into the EU are designing for EURO6 emission targets. I am probably mistaken but i thought we (in Oz) were still working towards Euro5 targets. None the less trickle down effect will be small capacity forced induction engines.

If you don't like the future, move to Canada. Lovely country (no Americans) and you get to drive an F150 with a 6.8ltr diesel as your kids commuter vehicle. Canada being economically tied to the USA will follow the boosum of the USA.

MLD

[AndyG]

Not sure of the exact date, but Australia is very soon (in the next couple of years) going to ban the sale of new cars without electronic stability control (various names for it) as well as cars without a minimum amount of airbags.

Buy them now and treasure them!

Live axles don't work well with crumple zones and it is safe to assume that our Defenders are the very last Land Rovers ever with live axles (in the front at least). I imagine the very best we can hope for is a slightly "industrialized" or "toughened up" Discovery 4 type vehicle.

Cheers,

Lou

My MY15 Defender has DSC, so that's done:)
And it's having a sleep for a few months for next trip

[Pickles2]

Doesn't matter which "bigger/better" engine we're talking about, a "better" engine would definitely, IMHO, have been the go, something along the lines of a 3L Turbo diesel, say 140/150KW, & 500/550Nm would have been great.
Sadly now, that is never going to happen, with the current Defender.
Pickles.

[harro]

Doesn't matter which "bigger/better" engine we're talking about, a "better" engine would definitely, IMHO, have been the go, something along the lines of a 3L Turbo diesel, say 140/150KW, & 500/550Nm would have been great.
Sadly now, that is never going to happen, with the current Defender.
Pickles.

Yes I agree, those figures really represent a mid range engine by today's crd standards and would have been ideal in the Defender as I am sure the smallish engine and 90kw has put off a lot of prospective buyers but......
Those sorts of figures would probably mean a new drive train and bigger/better brakes and I am sure there would be other upgrades needed.

The vnt has brought the torque figures up from the td5\tdi era but the kW output has stayed pretty constant and I think this has helped to keep the Defender the way it is (which I am pretty happy with).
There is no doubting this will all change with the new one.

Who knows with the output being achieved by the 2.0 litre sequential turbo Amarok we may even see a smaller engine yet!

Cheers,
Paul.

[JamesB71]

Maybe Im less fussy about wanting my defender to drive like a sports car, but I was very pleasantly surprised by how quick and powerful the 2.2 is in my 90. Its more than enough engine to keep me happy.

[Deefa]

Wish list for a new defender

New body that still looks like a Defender (like the new mini relates to the old one) still alloy and still bolted together but wider so your not leaning on the door cards. Better seat placement so you are not sitting next to the B pillar,,,and doesnt leak. Lower rear seats (why are they so high?)

Same suspension

Lower ratio Low range gear set.

Bigger engine , no brainer.

Tougher diffs and axles. and propshafts as well.

better noise suppression.

Why cant new cars be bought with factory draw sets in the back, a decent fuel tank size and a snorkel as standard . A fridge plug at least.

I know it wont happen its just a wish list.

[frantic]

Yes I agree, those figures really represent a mid range engine by today's crd standards and would have been ideal in the Defender as I am sure the smallish engine and 90kw has put off a lot of prospective buyers but......
Those sorts of figures would probably mean a new drive train and bigger/better brakes and I am sure there would be other upgrades needed.

The vnt has brought the torque figures up from the td5\tdi era but the kW output has stayed pretty constant and I think this has helped to keep the Defender the way it is (which I am pretty happy with).
There is no doubting this will all change with the new one.

Who knows with the output being achieved by the 2.0 litre sequential turbo Amarok we may even see a smaller engine yet!

Cheers,
Paul.
The drive train would have handled the 3.2 puma fine, the gearbox is almost the same as the ranger/bt50 which also has a 130 in wheelbase:o
as for braking??? Defender already has 4w discs compared to most others with rear drums, the wrangler has a 2.8 tdi with far more go, along with a 3.6 petrol, navara has both 2.5 and a 3.0tdv6 with drums on the back, hilux has the old 3.0tdi and a 4.0 v6 with 200kw and drums on the back. AND they all run with rear leaf springs.
The 3.2 td5 puma is built in both the u.k and Thailand, but was uk only built for the first 12-18 months. This means LR knew about it well before ford put it into the ranger/bt50 but chose not to bother putting an engine in the rest of the world would want more. This could have seriously increased sales outside the U.K as it would have made the auto option as simple as fitting the mounts, along with greater demand for all manual models outside the u.k.

To me basically the defender for a long time has been the poor cousin, getting hand me downs and patched up bits to keep it going. Any real investment was taken elsewhere to build up other models, in the fear that giving the defender any more appeal would steal sales from other LR products.
In the mid 90's they chose not to put in the disco1's airbag setup so lost the USA market for defender, result is a 83 on defender we pay 5-45k for they pay 40-120k for and are! In australia we had the 3.9 Isuzu which outsold the petrol and relegated the landrover diesel akin to selling ice to Eskimos , it was competitive with toymota and Nissan , but did LR take notice and make this a ROW model option?
As to cost, a merc g-wagen 350 diesel(3.0 v6td with 155kw) costs over $150,000, there is no way putting in ashcroft axles, cv,diff, either a 3.2 puma or a 3.0 tdv6 an x-eng disc handbrake, and a basic airbag setup is going to add more than $10,000 to a defenders cost. It already has a 6spd manual, throw in the fords auto for the one legged and some sound proofing for those who like to hear what others say in the car and it will be another $2k at best.
Which would you chose, a $50-$70k defender with a 180kw tdv6 , 7 seats and factory 255/85's (33in)or a $145-180k g-wagen 5 seats and 265/70 r16 ,31 inch tyres?
2013 Mercedes-Benz G350 BlueTEC MY13 7G-TRONIC All Wheel Drive (http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Mercedes-Benz-G350-2013/AGC-AD-16673746/?Cr=0&sdmvc=1)
Merc sell these happily alongside their ml and gl SUV which are all in the same price bracket with the same engines. They do the AMG version at another $120k on top of the standard price gl350 (around $260k for one of those)as a draw car, would LR honestly lose any RR sales with a special edition defender with the supercharged v8?

[Pickles2]

frantic, love your work mate,..brilliant post.
Couldn't agree more, Pickles.

[harro]

The drive train would have handled the 3.2 puma fine, the gearbox is almost the same as the ranger/bt50 which also has a 130 in wheelbase:o
as for braking??? Defender already has 4w discs compared to most others with rear drums, the wrangler has a 2.8 tdi with far more go, along with a 3.6 petrol, navara has both 2.5 and a 3.0tdv6 with drums on the back, hilux has the old 3.0tdi and a 4.0 v6 with 200kw and drums on the back. AND they all run with rear leaf springs.
The 3.2 td5 puma is built in both the u.k and Thailand, but was uk only built for the first 12-18 months. This means LR knew about it well before ford put it into the ranger/bt50 but chose not to bother putting an engine in the rest of the world would want more. This could have seriously increased sales outside the U.K as it would have made the auto option as simple as fitting the mounts, along with greater demand for all manual models outside the u.k.

To me basically the defender for a long time has been the poor cousin, getting hand me downs and patched up bits to keep it going. Any real investment was taken elsewhere to build up other models, in the fear that giving the defender any more appeal would steal sales from other LR products.
In the mid 90's they chose not to put in the disco1's airbag setup so lost the USA market for defender, result is a 83 on defender we pay 5-45k for they pay 40-120k for and are! In australia we had the 3.9 Isuzu which outsold the petrol and relegated the landrover diesel akin to selling ice to Eskimos , it was competitive with toymota and Nissan , but did LR take notice and make this a ROW model option?
As to cost, a merc g-wagen 350 diesel(3.0 v6td with 155kw) costs over $150,000, there is no way putting in ashcroft axles, cv,diff, either a 3.2 puma or a 3.0 tdv6 an x-eng disc handbrake, and a basic airbag setup is going to add more than $10,000 to a defenders cost. It already has a 6spd manual, throw in the fords auto for the one legged and some sound proofing for those who like to hear what others say in the car and it will be another $2k at best.
Which would you chose, a $50-$70k defender with a 180kw tdv6 , 7 seats and factory 255/85's (33in)or a $145-180k g-wagen 5 seats and 265/70 r16 ,31 inch tyres?
2013 Mercedes-Benz G350 BlueTEC MY13 7G-TRONIC All Wheel Drive (http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Mercedes-Benz-G350-2013/AGC-AD-16673746/?Cr=0&sdmvc=1)
Merc sell these happily alongside their ml and gl SUV which are all in the same price bracket with the same engines. They do the AMG version at another $120k on top of the standard price gl350 (around $260k for one of those)as a draw car, would LR honestly lose any RR sales with a special edition defender with the supercharged v8?
All good points but unless you can quote actual torque ratings for the gearbox etc,
Really more of a rant
As for allwheel discs vs disc drum
Well they didn't just put 19 inch wheels on the D4 because they look good .
It was my understanding that engines were getting smaller because of crd technology and to save money on drive train etc upgrades.
But then without some stats to suport it that's robably just a rant to.
Don't know about the puma box but the r380 certainly was not up to the
500 plus nm mentioned and ther is more than enough complaints going around for the rover diff so probably just the lt230 that may accomodate the extra horses.

Cheers

[JDNSW]

Wish list for a new defender

New body that still looks like a Defender (like the new mini relates to the old one) still alloy and still bolted together but wider so your not leaning on the door cards. Better seat placement so you are not sitting next to the B pillar,,,and doesnt leak. Lower rear seats (why are they so high?)

Upright seating is to reduce the length of body used by the seating. To lower the seating, move the B pillar back and make the body wider you are looking at a significantly larger and hence heavier vehicle unless the cargo space is reduced. Bolt together body and leakproofing are just about mutually exclusive.

Same suspension

I tend to agree, but unlikely to happen. Solid front axle is very difficult to meet collision specifications. Also likely to be heavier than independent although I am not too sure about this if you make it just as tough.

Lower ratio Low range gear set.

Means prop shafts, diffs and axles have to be stronger as they handle more torque. Combine with more power and you will have a substantial increase in size and weight of these bits.

Bigger engine , no brainer.

Not going to happen. Perhaps more powerful, but bigger is unlikely.

Tougher diffs and axles. and propshafts as well.

See above - without technology advances, which may happen, combined with the above could rapidly see big increases in weight, including unsprung weight.

better noise suppression.

Hear! Hear! Although current models really are not too bad.

Why cant new cars be bought with factory draw sets in the back, a decent fuel tank size and a snorkel as standard . A fridge plug at least.

Drawer sets unlikley, although if the market penetration increases to the extent needed for a new model, they are possible. The other items really should happen, but I won't hold my breath.

I know it wont happen its just a wish list.

My wish list would be a bit different, but as you seem to realise, wish lists, either mine, yours, or the engineers', will be tempered by a strong dose of commercial reality. The Defender is really a casualty of the increasingly stringent design rules across the world.

These constrain any new design very closely, and also make it very expensive to develop, which means that niche vehicles such as the original Landrover become either impossible to produce or so expensive as to be unviable as a utility vehicle (possible as a luxury or military vehicle you can sell for a lot more). The current Defender has been 'grandfathered' in for just about as long as has been possible, and is probably the last widely sold vehicle anywhere whose basic design goes back to before any real design rules existed.

A new design is certainly going to have to share its basic design with other models, and I would guess the only question will be whether this platform will be the current Discovery platform or its replacement. There is virtually zero chance of the platform being designed specifically for the Defender replacement.

John

[LR V8]

@ harro... Well, I stopped reading yours after the first few lines...

[PAT303]

Toyota are the biggest auto maker in the world with more money than they know what to do with,they are dropping the Land Cruiser because it's too much work to make it compliant,if it was so easy to do all the things mentioned don't you think Toyota would just do it?.To answer the question about why they don't simply fit other engines etc,remember they make vehicles on production lines,not in a back shed,the tooling needed for the change would cost tens of millions of dollars for the engine,tens of millions more for an auto gearbox,tens more for diffs,I came from that industry,the money needed for tooling for the smallest plastic part is staggering,that is one of the reasons Land Rover are designing a new Defender,to make it compliant with modern regs and easier to mass produce. Pat

[scarry]

All good points but unless you can quote actual torque ratings for the gearbox etc,
Really more of a rant
As for allwheel discs vs disc drum
Well they didn't just put 19 inch wheels on the D4 because they look good .
It was my understanding that engines were getting smaller because of crd technology and to save money on drive train etc upgrades.
But then without some stats to suport it that's robably just a rant to.
Don't know about the puma box but the r380 certainly was not up to the
500 plus nm mentioned and ther is more than enough complaints going around for the rover diff so probably just the lt230 that may accomodate the extra horses.

Cheers

The MT82 would be the least of your worries,it is fitted to many V8 mustangs.

[manic]

...
As for allwheel discs vs disc drum
Well they didn't just put 19 inch wheels on the D4 because they look good ....

They didn't put them on to improve off road performance.

If they road bias the defender to sell a mass load to D4,RR,RRS,FRLDR,EVO markets they may as well kill it off, they have that market covered already. It's supposed to be the ultimate 4x4 utility vehicle not a family/yuppy/urban run about. It does not need to go 200+kph - what's the bets they make a defender sport!?

[2stroke]

Surely it wouldn't make sense to make it look good to potential disco customers, common sense from a business perspective must be to aim at Hilux / Ranger etc? Sad to say.:(

[PAT303]

They didn't put them on to improve off road performance.

If they road bias the defender to sell a mass load to D4,RR,RRS,FRLDR,EVO markets they may as well kill it off, they have that market covered already. It's supposed to be the ultimate 4x4 utility vehicle not a family/yuppy/urban run about. It does not need to go 200+kph - what's the bets they make a defender sport!?

Everything LR have put out so far has said the defender replacement will be at least the equal of the current model,my guess based on absolutely no facts would be it'll run on the D3/4 floor pan with different bodies spec'ed like the Telstra special cruiser's fitted with 18'' rims. Pat

[frantic]

All good points but unless you can quote actual torque ratings for the gearbox etc,
Really more of a rant
As for allwheel discs vs disc drum
Well they didn't just put 19 inch wheels on the D4 because they look good .
It was my understanding that engines were getting smaller because of crd technology and to save money on drive train etc upgrades.
But then without some stats to suport it that's robably just a rant to.
Don't know about the puma box but the r380 certainly was not up to the
500 plus nm mentioned and ther is more than enough complaints going around for the rover diff so probably just the lt230 that may accomodate the extra horses.

Cheers

As scarry said, gearbox from mustang, also virtually same as ranger 3.2 td5 with 147kw and 470 nm.
Engine size is to do with fuel and eu tax, power and torque is still increasing so not valid.
Using ashcroft quality or equivalent axles, cv, cw-pinion would cost maybe $1500-$2000 extra, rover diff issues solved.

Pat the 3.2 uses same mounts as 2.2, and LR have plenty of experience with td5 installation.:D
Also the final model has etc as well as the 14 year old abs and tc, to incorporate airbags from the d1 may have cost 10 million in 98 but would have doubled or tripled sales so paid for itself. How many mine sites etc would have chosen a tc abs, etc, airbag def over a cruiser. Also toymota has other options, bigger hilux next year or tundra.

[harro]

@ harro... Well, I stopped reading yours after the first few lines...

Thanks for your highly informed input
Much appreciated
Cheers

[frantic]

Couple of other quick points.
Their old owner built a 3+ton f150-250 and 6+ litre v8's with only 17in wheels in the land of litigation ;) so the braking,would be good enough in a 2ton defender.
Guess who has gone aluminium bodies in their new truck to drop 700pounds a truck?
Nissan's new navara top model have rear coil springs, a LR only feature in 4wd utes for 30 years.
Also I am sceptical about series landcruiser stopping production when they have just been re-released in Japan. That's more like brand building for a new model in 1-3 years.

[LR V8]

Thanks for your highly informed input
Much appreciated
Cheers


No probs. Always happy to call out special people.