R380 Grumbles

[goingbush]

Happily motoring along a few days ago Val says "what that new noise"
I could hear nothing.

Yesterday I could hear it, Every gear except 4th is growling. Bugger.:o

Its been as quiet as a mouse until now. I dropped the oil this morning & relieved to find no chunks, just the usual hairy stubble on the magnetic plug & fairly clean oil. Added 2 1/4 liters and Moreys for the rest.
Will keep out of 5th.

A fair bit quieter with the Moreys, got about 2000klm before we get back to Sydney, which has to be 1st week Aug, just hope it holds together , got it booked in at Graeme Cooper, dont have time or workshop to wait for one from Ashcrofts.

Once a R380 start grumbling, how long generally can you get out of them?
I might add I'm towing a Van too.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I have a good used Defender R380 box here in North Sydney.

Case needs a lug welding back on and it may need a new shaft as its been out o a car for a while. But it's a good box and here if you need one quick.

Jon

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[robbotd5]

How many K's are on the box and what oil are you running?. Do the Defender's have the oil cooler like the Disco?. May be some of the problem that the box is running too hot...?
Regards
Robbo

[Blade74]

I had a look at your web page www.goingbush.com
Awesome work guys and it has a great guide to TD5 defenders. As well as some cool old defenders.

It says on there that he has an oil cooler for the gearbox. And larger fins on the transfer case.

Wish I found the guide on the TD5 defender earlier its a cracka.

[djam1]

Don I cant answer your question but if you are running 2.5 litres of Moreys in the R380 this may not be good.
Years ago we tried to run 100% Moreys in Unimog Portals and found that you couldnt go above 80% or they would overheat.
Might be good to seek Ricks advice on that.
Sounds like its layshaft bearings if its doing it in gears 1-3 although I would of thought your box would have done the support bearings on 5th gear,
I saw a couple of your onboard camera videos and was wondering how long the R380 would last.

[goingbush]

How many K's are on the box and what oil are you running?. Do the Defender's have the oil cooler like the Disco?. May be some of the problem that the box is running too hot...?
Regards
Robbo

Just clocked over 186,000 km , I've always used Castrol Syntrans in it.

Its got a aftermarket oil cooler & runs fairly cool.



Don I cant answer your question but if you are running 2.5 litres of Moreys in the R380 this may not be good.
Years ago we tried to run 100% Moreys in Unimog Portals and found that you couldnt go above 80% or they would overheat.
Might be good to seek Ricks advice on that.
Sounds like its layshaft bearings if its doing it in gears 1-3 although I would of thought your box would have done the support bearings on 5th gear,
I saw a couple of your onboard camera videos and was wondering how long the R380 would last.

Thanks Duane ... I think, its only got 250ml Moreys, the rest is Syntrans,
its getting louder , Ive never worried about the weak 5th gear 'wifes tails" as mine has always been tight as a drum & as quiet as a mouse, I'm very suprised, ( disillusioned ?) it had gone downhill without notice, I changed the oil only 1500klm ago and it was clean after 10,000km .

[goingbush]

I have a good used Defender R380 box here in North Sydney.

Case needs a lug welding back on and it may need a new shaft as its been out o a car for a while. But it's a good box and here if you need one quick.

Jon

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Thanks Jon, Much appreciated, just hope I can make it back to Sydney, without a big bang, will drop you a pm if the situation gets dire

[djam1]

Don I have a spare but am probably a bit far away from you
I am wondering if a roamerdrive and running in 4th gear is the answer
That said I know my TD5 can easily squeel the tyres when I have one of Jose's tunes on it and the roamerdrive wont deal with the layshaft bearings

[robbotd5]

Goingbush.
Sounds to me that you have done your best to look after the box. Hope it is something simple mate. Towing my 23ft van I'm wondering when mine will scream ENOUGH!!!!. I'm running Syntrans as well.
Regards
Robbo

[justinc]

Don, could be either the front or rear layshaft taper roller bearing, and yes the difference between silent and noisy is only a few flecks of hardfacing away...:(

I would spend as much time in 4th gear as you can, once it is noticeably noisy then the bearing/s are pretty much on borrowed time. That said, be gentle, it would probably get you home.

At least you can slow down and enjoy the scenery some more :D

JC

[Bearman]

Just clocked over 186,000 km , I've always used Castrol Syntrans in it.

Its got a aftermarket oil cooler & runs fairly cool.




Thanks Duane ... I think, its only got 250ml Moreys, the rest is Syntrans,
its getting louder , Ive never worried about the weak 5th gear 'wifes tails" as mine has always been tight as a drum & as quiet as a mouse, I'm very suprised, ( disillusioned ?) it had gone downhill without notice, I changed the oil only 1500klm ago and it was clean after 10,000km .

Drop in here if it gets worse and you need help Don, hopefully I will have my hoist installed in the shed within the next couple of weeks.

[rick130]

Don, could be either the front or rear layshaft taper roller bearing, and yes the difference between silent and noisy is only a few flecks of hardfacing away...:(



JC

Bugger, I thought it was only the odd sized 5th gear layshaft bearing that was a premature failure waiting to happen..... :(

I know of another R380 that failed with the hard facing going ta ta's on some of the bearings and some of the gears, but we put it down to chronic overheating in 47+* temps when towing.
Yes, it was running Syntrans too.

[justinc]

Bugger, I thought it was only the odd sized 5th gear layshaft bearing that was a premature failure waiting to happen..... :(

I know of another R380 that failed with the hard facing going ta ta's on some of the bearings and some of the gears, but we put it down to chronic overheating in 47+* temps when towing.
Yes, it was running Syntrans too.

i've seen both rick, not every r380 fails in the 5th gear bearings. i have a customer with a 340,000km suffix j box behind a tdi, trashed the layshaft front bearing and the input pilot brg but the 5th support pair were almost unmarked:o and he was an mtf94 then duragear user. never towed but as we know the tdi has only 45Nm of torque anyway.....:wasntme:

jc

[goingbush]

Thanks for all the help / offers / suggestions guys.

I'm tossing up weather to take the Van to Longreach , only 250km away, the layup fee there is only $10 a week, then drive the Defer back to Sydney without the stress of the Van to get fixed at GC's.

or alternatively get a Ashcroft R380 sent out and I can swap it out in the c'park & job done, problem with that is we absolutely have to be in Sydney for 2 weeks from the 7th and I'm not sure about how fast the gearbox can get to Outback QLD from UK.

[justinc]

Thanks for all the help / offers / suggestions guys.

I'm tossing up weather to take the Van to Longreach , only 250km away, the layup fee there is only $10 a week, then drive the Defer back to Sydney without the stress of the Van to get fixed at GC's.

or alternatively get a Ashcroft R380 sent out and I can swap it out in the c'park & job done, problem with that is we absolutely have to be in Sydney for 2 weeks from the 7th and I'm not sure about how fast the gearbox can get to Outback QLD from UK.

i would leave the van and get it to gc's while you are in sydney for the 2 weeks. $140 storage fee is cheaper than a premature failure on the way to the coast:(:(

life is too short to stress about it Don.

jc

[goingbush]

Justin

you hit the nail on the head,

Thats why we are on this trip of a lifetime, To cleanse out a lifetimes worth of stress.

Less stress is the way to go. It makes sense. Thanks.

[justinc]

Justin

you hit the nail on the head,

Thats why we are on this trip of a lifetime, To cleanse out a lifetimes worth of stress.

Less stress is the way to go. It makes sense. Thanks.

i think i need to take some of my own advice, too:o:)


jc

[djam1]

Don last time I got something from Ashcrofts it arrived quicker than other parts I order from Sydney.
I am a lot more isolated than you at the moment

Ashcrofts have also released a heavy duty modification for 5th gear

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6

They also note that you get noise in every gear except 4th when the 5th gear bearing goes bad

[robbotd5]

i think i need to take some of my own advice, too:o:)


jc

Me too!!!!
Regards
Robbo

[goingbush]

Hmmm,

I wonder if I could stretch the frendship with the Head of Finance for one of these :o

http://quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qbe86g-quaife-land-rover-6-speed-sequential-gearbox

at least the noise from the spur cut gears would cover up any other developing noises :D

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Hmmm,

I wonder if I could stretch the frendship with the Head of Finance for one of these :o

http://quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qbe86g-quaife-land-rover-6-speed-sequential-gearbox

at least the noise from the spur cut gears would cover up any other developing noises :D

I remember discussing this with others in the trade when it first came out and I was in te UK.

Great on a track, pretty rubbish in an everyday car. Too much in or out of gear and no real finess for offroading.

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[rick130]

i think i need to take some of my own advice, too:o:)


jc

I'm doing this ATM, a big, big change in my work direction.

A change is as good as a holiday it's said, and so far the only stress has been self inflicted and it's all in a good way ;)

[goingbush]

Don, I have a spare but am probably a bit far away from you
I am wondering if a roamerdrive and running in 4th gear is the answer
That said I know my TD5 can easily squeel the tyres when I have one of Jose's tunes on it and the roamerdrive wont deal with the layshaft bearings


I hereby retract my past statements that people who don't tow in 5th are being paranoid. Seems when you say stuff sometimes it comes back to bite you.

Got to Longreach Ok, cruising along in 4th @ 3000rpm doing 90kmh is not all that much fun, Hmm must almost feel like driving along with Izuzu & LT95 :wasntme: (and it really sucks the juice in 4th too)

Making enquiries about Roamerdrive, If I get one sent here and fit it at least I'll be able to drive to Sydney at reasonable revs/noise level, and then once the box is fixed I herby announce that from from then on only tow in 4-OD (unless its a nice easy tailwind tow) thats one idea anyway. ( Get thee behind me Satan)

[justinc]

Hi Don. I really think maybe repairing the box and modifying to the bigger 5th gear support brgs as per Ashcrofts will be the best solution. Run a Synthetic oil and change often.

Cheaper than an overdrive, OR you could just stick a VNT on it, and a Disco transfer case that'll allow 4th gear all day when towing, 5th gear for lazy work, and NO MORE LAG....:)

JC

[goingbush]

Hi Don. I really think maybe repairing the box and modifying to the bigger 5th gear support brgs as per Ashcrofts will be the best solution. Run a Synthetic oil and change often.

Cheaper than an overdrive, OR you could just stick a VNT on it, and a Disco transfer case that'll allow 4th gear all day when towing, 5th gear for lazy work, and NO MORE LAG....:)

JC

The disco transfer gears are something I have thought of but even with the Defender LT230 I find H1 too high sometimes, esp taking off from an incline ( towing the van) & on some take offs from traffic lights on hills (read Sydney) feel like slipping it into Low Range to save the Clutch (another sore point) , the inadequate High 1st ratio even with defender gears is what stopping be going to 255/85's.

I also find L1 too high for steep down hills.
A good compromise would be 4.1 final drives with a Disco LT230, then I would get a better low range leaving High about the same, but a lot cheaper just to feather the brakes down steep inclines, but for the trucks current life thats not so important now.

As for Turbo lag, for some reason that is something I don't suffer, infact if the turbo blew I'd probably put a standard one back, everything is great regards the Td5inside tune !

reading between the lines, I get the impression you think the Roamer Model DS overdrive not up to the use I'll put it to.??

at this stage total cost of the fix is not so important (within reason) as getting a reliable truck, even to the extent that I considered Qualfe conversion but the close ratios do really suck. ( I wonder if you can put an MT-82 behind a Td5 Those ratios will do me )

As much as I love the Defender if the G-Professional was avaliable in Australia ..... well that might even be an option :twisted:

[rick130]

even to the extent that I considered Qualfe conversion but the close ratios do really suck. ( I wonder if you can put an MT-82 behind a Td5 Those ratios will do me )



As much as I love dog 'boxes, I reckon it could get tiresome, particularly the constant howl from the straight cut gears.....

The ratios suck too, it's a race 'box :(

Actually I'd love the straight dog change, clutchless gear changes are so much easier and the faster you pull it through the cleaner the change is :D

Quaife used to make a dog change 5 and 6 speed conversion for the R380, unfortunately they only make the synchro/straight cut gear version now, or is that the one you are talking about ? (not the totally new sequential six speed alloy cased 'box ??)

Ashcrofts were working on an MT82/TD5 conversion, but I haven't heard anything for a fair while. They posted the prototype up on here way back.

[rick130]

The disco transfer gears are something I have thought of but even with the Defender LT230 I find H1 too high sometimes, esp taking off from an incline ( towing the van) & on some take offs from traffic lights on hills (read Sydney) feel like slipping it into Low Range to save the Clutch (another sore point) , the inadequate High 1st ratio even with defender gears is what stopping be going to 255/85's.



Normal to use L2 for take-offs when towing with a Tdi.......

[Ancient Mariner]

Bit like kicking a man when he is down but why not consider a Isuzu box:o good towing ratios and with one of Grubbs kits your half way there.Can`t imagine it would be a big job to adapt to the engine .The low first would probably solve any clutch problems (and if you ever see the light):angel:

AM

[djam1]

Don I wonder if the MT-82 will have similar issues if you tow in 6th?
5th gear towing would be as annoying as the R380 in 4th
MT-82 in 5th gear @ 90 Kmh 2961 rpm
R380 in 4th gear @ 90 Kmh 2961 rpm

[goingbush]

Bit like kicking a man when he is down but why not consider a Isuzu box:o good towing ratios and with one of Grubbs kits your half way there.Can`t imagine it would be a big job to adapt to the engine .The low first would probably solve any clutch problems (and if you ever see the light):angel:

AM

If I had a 4bdt then yes the Isuzu truck box would be the obvious choice.

if I had the time and a workshop I could also consider creative options, but pretty much stuck for time and have to use stuff thats easily available, One thing I hadn't considered is an Auto, hmm solve R380 & DMF issues in one go ... naanh



Don I wonder if the MT-82 will have similar issues if you tow in 6th?
5th gear towing would be as annoying as the R380 in 4th
MT-82 in 5th gear @ 90 Kmh 2961 rpm
R380 in 4th gear @ 90 Kmh 2961 rpm

you are correct of course, the pommy forums show them giving quite a bit of trouble too.
but I was thinking MT-82 with disco transfer gears would still give me a much lower 1st gear for hill take offs, and then direct drive would be faster than with the Defender transfer high ratio

[robbotd5]

Geez fellas this thread has me a little concerned. I am guilty for towing in 5th. My Disco is so much happier 90-100 in 5th. I can't imagine NOT using 5th. Mind you I am very aware of it's downfalls. I drive by my boost and EGT gauges and when in 5th I try to maintain 15psi and no more. Slightest signs of laboring I'll change down to 4th. I'm running Syntrans and it's changed every 15K. No point worrying though, I've seen plenty of nissyotas suffer manual trans failure from towing heavy loads. The upgraded Ashcroft R380 looks the go. Don, best of luck mate. I hope it ends well for you. Ps, our van is 23ft 2381 kg's
Regards
Robbo

[Yorkshire_Jon]

What's the go with the 5th gear thing? Is it a phantom problem that's grown bigger with time as people spread hear-say?

I've been towing large/heavy trailers behind Defender TD5's since about 2001, lots of that in 5th. Never had a problem yet with the gearboxes, been through several clutches though!

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[Psimpson7]

I broke the layshaft in mine... I thrashed it relentlessly towing heavy trailers in 5th gear for years.

What I think eventually broke it though was high load reversing in low range on big tyres.

There is no way I would even consider doing long distances in 4th gear towing... if it breaks again.. I will just fix it again!

[goingbush]

OK, the latest news is I have ordered a Ashcroft suffix L R380 with heavy duty 5th gear support bearing mod, whilst I'm at it a clutch kit & DMF, nothing wrong with mine, but prudent whilst the box is out.


So I was under the car with a torch to get the G'box number and something looks a bit fishy to me.

Aren't the numbers supposed to be stamped, and isn't there supposed to be a "A" after 74
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1171.jpg

also looks like a proper stamped number under the 7 (yellow arrow)

what do you reckon, ??? is this normal or has someone done a bodgy ??

[TeamFA]

Geez fellas this thread has me a little concerned. I am guilty for towing in 5th. My Disco is so much happier 90-100 in 5th. I can't imagine NOT using 5th. Mind you I am very aware of it's downfalls. I drive by my boost and EGT gauges and when in 5th I try to maintain 15psi and no more. Slightest signs of laboring I'll change down to 4th.

Like anything, I suppose, you can be lucky or unlucky.

I think the risk is increased when engine mods make more power. With more power, you can just put the foot down in 5th to get up inclines, overtake, etc., whereas with less power, you'll change back to 4th quicker.

I've also run from my boost gauge in 5th since doing the layshaft, and don't let it get above 14psi in 5th. I'd rather use a bit more fuel and have the engine revving a bit more, than go through that exercise again.

[weeds]

Umm....I to use 5th all the time when towing the camper

[uninformed]

so how will us out of towners go about doing the Ashcroft R380 5th gear bearing mod here in Oz?

I must have got the one good R380, 320k, 250k towing 1.8t and I kill engines all the time :confused:

[goingbush]

so how will us out of towners go about doing the Ashcroft R380 5th gear bearing mod here in Oz?

I must have got the one good R380, 320k, 250k towing 1.8t and I kill engines all the time :confused:

I tried to buy just the modded 5th gear housing & beefed up bearing kit without any success, had to settle on a complete upgraded gearbox

[strangy]

OK, the latest news is I have ordered a Ashcroft suffix L R380 with heavy duty 5th gear support bearing mod, whilst I'm at it a clutch kit & DMF, nothing wrong with mine, but prudent whilst the box is out.


So I was under the car with a torch to get the G'box number and something looks a bit fishy to me.

Aren't the numbers supposed to be stamped, and isn't there supposed to be a "A" after 74
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/1171.jpg

also looks like a proper stamped number under the 7 (yellow arrow)

what do you reckon, ??? is this normal or has someone done a bodgy ??


Dodgy!

Should be nice stamped numbers, not some hand scribed engraving...:eek:
Possible to not even be TD5 box rather a cobbled together R380 from a 300tdi or something else?

[goingbush]

Thanks Strangy

Well now I'm glad I'm shelling out for a whole new box from Ashcrofts, rather than getting mine repaired, will have to contact PO and see if he knew about the Dodgy Bros. gearbox.

[uninformed]

I tried to buy just the modded 5th gear housing & beefed up bearing kit without any success, had to settle on a complete upgraded gearbox

well hopefully they well let us know bearing part numbers, I figured there would be one or two in Oz capable of doing the machine work required.....buying and shipping a whole box isnt realistic for everyone here.

[goingbush]

I'm sure if you took your rear support bearings to a local bearing shop they could come up with bigger / stronger bearings that have the same ID and get housing bored to suit.


and for Tdi300 owners what about this MT-82 adaptor on Ebay
6 Speed Gearbox Adaption | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170651925809'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

[rick130]

I'm sure if you took your rear support bearings to a local bearing shop they could come up with bigger / stronger bearings that have the same ID and get housing bored to suit.





There was another Ashcrofts thread on here where we discussed the bearings and Dave shared the size as at the time he mentioned he'd found one a touch bigger and so would be stronger but they hadn't gone so far as to buy and try at that stage.

[strangy]

and for Tdi300 owners what about this MT-82 adaptor on Ebay
6 Speed Gearbox Adaption | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170651925809'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

I think this conversion would make the 300tdi a much better vehicle particularly the lower first gear.

Just for info this is what the serial # should look like. This is 300tdi unit.

62853

[uninformed]

I'm sure if you took your rear support bearings to a local bearing shop they could come up with bigger / stronger bearings that have the same ID and get housing bored to suit.


and for Tdi300 owners what about this MT-82 adaptor on Ebay
6 Speed Gearbox Adaption | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170651925809'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

I have delt with those guys a few times. Very reliable and friendly. I might have to give them a call withe some Q's...

does anyone know what length the MT-82 is? Am I correct in that the MT-82 has a integral bell housing so no length change can be made?

How much are MT-82s going for? :o

[justinc]

don't forget that the defender puma uses 1.222:1 transfer ratios. you will have to swap out your 1.4:1 high range, or run 33"s...:twisted:

jc

[uninformed]

don't forget that the defender puma uses 1.222:1 transfer ratios. you will have to swap out your 1.4:1 high range, or run 33"s...:twisted:

jc

hang on im having a brain fart.... wouldnt the 1.222 make it higher geared (higher speed for given rpm, less torque at wheels)? If so and it is still geared like a 300tdi, wouldnt using 1.4 high range make it lower again? Im thinking since 1st is much better in the MT-82 and the top speed of a 110 is more about COD and HP that the top end gearing ok.....

Will a 300tdi LT230 bolt straight up to the back of the MT-82?

Are the MT-82 out of Rangers and Transits the same bolt patern front and rear?

[goingbush]

Looks like regular LT230 fits, dont know about the output gear tho

and the Puma style clutch release is far superior too, but what pressure plate / friction plate do you use ??

MT82 (what it comes with) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MBOoRv1uW1c)

you would need that rear housing to fit an LT230, doubt a Ranger / transit box would come with that

[justinc]

hang on im having a brain fart.... wouldnt the 1.222 make it higher geared (higher speed for given rpm, less torque at wheels)? If so and it is still geared like a 300tdi, wouldnt using 1.4 high range make it lower again? Im thinking since 1st is much better in the MT-82 and the top speed of a 110 is more about COD and HP that the top end gearing ok.....

Will a 300tdi LT230 bolt straight up to the back of the MT-82?

Are the MT-82 out of Rangers and Transits the same bolt patern front and rear?

Sorry Serge I was saying that in order to retain standard PUMA defender gearing you will need to use the 1.2 high range. There is nothing wrong with going to 1.4:1 as this is what the Tdi will need as it has no torque.:wasntme:. If using a 4bd1T or anything with decent output then I would retain the Puma gearing...:D

JC

[schuy1]

"There is nothing wrong with going to 1.4:1 as this is what the Tdi will need as it has no torque.:wasntme:"

Well I never!:o Such cheek!! I will have you know a Tdi will pull a whole lot more than a Fiat Bambino! :D :D

[goingbush]

Well after putting the new Ashcroft R380 in I can tell you that the defender is now noticeably quieter overall than its ever been (in my ownership) , I can talk on the handsfee now without pulling over, thats a new Defender experience for me.

So all along the gearbox has been somewhat noisy for the 60,000 km that Ive owned it. Not a gear or bearing noise per se, just the loud ambience :confused::confused: Its just got to sounding like a cement mixer in the last 2000km.

perhaps a combination of new DMF and Gbox has quietened it down, its like a new car now .