300tdi running a bit rough after engine rebuild??

[Defendozer]

Hi all,

Well after spending the last two and a half weeks rebuilding the engine (not completely) in my 300tdi it is finally back together and running:D BUT its not running as well as it should and I'm not completely sure why (obviously I guess cause I'm writing this)!!

Anyway here is a list of all the work that I did:

New crankshaft and con-rod shells fitted
New rings fitted
The bores were honed
New head and gaskets fitted
P gasket replaced
New timing belt, crank pulley, idler pulley and timing belt tensioner fitted
And then there's the new oil, oil filter and coolant etc etc but thats not really important!!

Now the first bad thing was that it was a pain to start, took ages! Finally got it going by putting a fully charged battery in and giving it a few good goes, maybe there was air still in the fuel lines?.. Or something else which is what I'm getting to!....

The next bad symptom is that it is still hard to start, compared to what it used to be like.

The worst thing now though is that it doesn't run smooth, it does seem to idle ok but if you rev it just a little bit it gets "jumpy" and also blows a fair bit of white smoke which is unburnt diesel yes? It seems ok when the engine warms up though but its still not good and I'm not happy.

I'm thinking I have either done something to the rings when I put them in causing low compression or the fuel pump timing is slightly out which I think is the more likely out of the two..

Any ideas at all???? Please tell me its something easy like the pump timing:p

Cheers, Remo

[Blknight.aus]

sounds like pump timing, have you done a poor mans injector phase/timing check by setting the crank to 90BTDC for number one on compression, cracking the union with the fuel solenoid powered up then quickly turning the crank with a breaker bar while watching the injector union?

Have you checked the delivery phasing for the injection order, it is possible to mix up 2 of the lines and wind up with the timing effectively reversed.

[chang]

Hi all,

Well after spending the last two and a half weeks rebuilding the engine (not completely) in my 300tdi it is finally back together and running:D BUT its not running as well as it should and I'm not completely sure why (obviously I guess cause I'm writing this)!!

Anyway here is a list of all the work that I did:

New crankshaft and con-rod shells fitted
New rings fitted
The bores were honed
New head and gaskets fitted
P gasket replaced
New timing belt, crank pulley, idler pulley and timing belt tensioner fitted
And then there's the new oil, oil filter and coolant etc etc but thats not really important!!

Now the first bad thing was that it was a pain to start, took ages! Finally got it going by putting a fully charged battery in and giving it a few good goes, maybe there was air still in the fuel lines?.. Or something else which is what I'm getting to!....

The next bad symptom is that it is still hard to start, compared to what it used to be like.

The worst thing now though is that it doesn't run smooth, it does seem to idle ok but if you rev it just a little bit it gets "jumpy" and also blows a fair bit of white smoke which is unburnt diesel yes? It seems ok when the engine warms up though but its still not good and I'm not happy.

I'm thinking I have either done something to the rings when I put them in causing low compression or the fuel pump timing is slightly out which I think is the more likely out of the two..

Any ideas at all???? Please tell me its something easy like the pump timing:p

Cheers, Remo


Is it really noisy/rattly compared to before with pronounced intake pulses?

If so the actual timing could be out a tooth ,But still should start ok

Check your fuel lines/lift pump for damage or leaks & replace sections of line where needed as it could be drawing air & also leaking back to the tank when left standing for a few hours or more, which may explain the hard start issue then getting better as it self bleeds.

Rotate the engine so you can prime the lift pump & leave her overnight, then in the morning crack the bleed screw on the filter head & operate the lift pump. if diesel does not squirt out & it takes a few pumps you know where to start looking

[Defendozer]

sounds like pump timing, have you done a poor mans injector phase/timing check by setting the crank to 90BTDC for number one on compression, cracking the union with the fuel solenoid powered up then quickly turning the crank with a breaker bar while watching the injector union?

Have you checked the delivery phasing for the injection order, it is possible to mix up 2 of the lines and wind up with the timing effectively reversed.

No I haven't done what you said, does that give an indication of "out" timing?

And all the fuel lines are definitely in the correct places as I didn't completely take them off.

[Defendozer]

Is it really noisy/rattly compared to before with pronounced intake pulses?

If so the actual timing could be out a tooth ,But still should start ok

Check your fuel lines/lift pump for damage or leaks & replace sections of line where needed as it could be drawing air & also leaking back to the tank when left standing for a few hours or more, which may explain the hard start issue then getting better as it self bleeds.

Rotate the engine so you can prime the lift pump & leave her overnight, then in the morning crack the bleed screw on the filter head & operate the lift pump. if diesel does not squirt out & it takes a few pumps you know where to start looking

Actually thats the other thing, there is a quite bad tapping noise in the top end somewhere, my thoughts were that (A) they are not getting oil or (B) the valves are not adjusted properly but I only just did them so don't see how they could be wrong!

I dont' think that it would be a fuel line, its got to be something that I have done as it certainly wasn't doing that before I pulled it apart, thats why I'm thinking it is the timing because its the only thing that I can see being wrong, I really don't know though:(
Will have a look though for sure.

[Adrian18]

Mine had simlar issues ruff running and excessive tappet type noise which was the pistons hitting the values turned out to be one tooth out on the timing belt but you also may have 2 separate problems

[SQUAT_DOG]

hey mate id be pulling the little cover plate off infront of the injector pump their 3 bolts their u can loosen to adjust the timing of the pump its quick an easy to do just a small adjustment can make a big difference the how the engine runs, ive timed all my motors by ear I advance them up till they knock then back them off a bit , not the right way to do it but it does work

[Defendozer]

Mine had simlar issues ruff running and excessive tappet type noise which was the pistons hitting the values turned out to be one tooth out on the timing belt but you also may have 2 separate problems The crankshaft and camshaft are spot on for timing and I'm 100% sure of that cause the flywheel was locked and the cam pulley was exactly right when I put the new belt in, the fuel pump cog can't be a tooth out either really to be honest because it was locked with a pin the whole time and I loosened the three bolts to get the belt on and to tension it.

How much does the cog have to turn for the engine to run badly anyway? How touchy is it?


hey mate id be pulling the little cover plate off infront of the injector pump their 3 bolts their u can loosen to adjust the timing of the pump its quick an easy to do just a small adjustment can make a big difference the how the engine runs, ive timed all my motors by ear I advance them up till they knock then back them off a bit , not the right way to do it but it does work Say if the pump timing was somehow out slightly which way would I have to turn the pump to try to fix it?

Ultimately what I would like to know is do the symptoms I mentioned point towards the timing or something else? Just trying to rule out the possibilities here.

[lro11]

I have just completed the same job on my 300 tdi and it went perfectly I think you are out 1 tooth that is why you have a top end rattle. Did you use the correct timing tools to fit the belt? Have a look on YouTube there is a really good video on fitting a timing belt and it also mentions the top end rattle problem.
http://youtu.be/BDokEsr1v-A

[Flipper]

I would say the camshaft timing is out.
The cam shaft timing mark is very difficult to eyeball as being inline unless you can see it dead on.
On the odd occasion I tape a piece of string to the center of the cam bolt and pull it across to the timing mark on the inner case marking just to make sure it passes over the cam pulley mark.

The other mistakes I have seen people make is put the locating pins in and tension the belt thinking this is all setup.
No it is not!. And your belt can be very loose because you are only tensioning one side of the belt.
You must tension the belt with the injector pump pin removed to get this accurate.
The injector pump pin is used to hold things in place for starters, then you remove and setup the belt tension.
After this you loosen all 3 bolts at the injector wheel and insert the pin and then tighten them.

It is a tricky sequence but when you do it right you will have a reliable and perfect running motor.
If you need step by step guidance PM me and I will take you through each stage carefully.

[Sitec]

Exactly what flipper said! Start again with the timing, and re check the valve clearances while you are there. :)

[Defendozer]

The cam really can't be out though, the flywheel was locked the whole time with the locking pin and when the belt was all done I could see that the cam was aligned because I had the radiator out to do the rebuild.
I did have the camshaft cog off to replace the seal but that can only go back on one way so should be fine.
And I thought the purpose of the pump locking pin was to keep the pump timing right before taking the belt off??
Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Thanks flipper for the offer, a step by step guide to the way that you do it all would be great:) I'll PM you soon.

[roverrescue]

The one way to be certain that your timing is spot on is if plunger lift is at 1,54mm at TDC
To access plunger remove the cap in centre of four injector unions on IP
Use dial guage to then measure forward displacement of the plunger as engine rotates.
At TDC the lift (forward discplacement) should be 1.54mm - it is rumoured / speculated that 1,60mm of lift will give a bit more advance and bite.
All other methods of lining up marks etc etc wil have a certain degree of error.
Actual plunger lift will accurately set your timing.

S

[chang]

The cam really can't be out though, the flywheel was locked the whole time with the locking pin and when the belt was all done I could see that the cam was aligned because I had the radiator out to do the rebuild.
I did have the camshaft cog off to replace the seal but that can only go back on one way so should be fine.
And I thought the purpose of the pump locking pin was to keep the pump timing right before taking the belt off??
Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Thanks flipper for the offer, a step by step guide to the way that you do it all would be great:) I'll PM you soon.

That's correct, the pins lock the pump & crank but the cam is not locked which can move slightly when pulling the belt over so its good to keep a keen eye on it.

As you said the cam gear is keyed to the shaft so it does only go on one way.

All the times I have changed a 300tdi belt I have just slackened the 3 pump pulley bolts while the pins are in to get the belt on, then tension the belt, followed by doing up the 3 bolts on the pump pulley,check marks are still all good, take the pins out & rotate the crank twice, check the marks are aligned & pump pin slides in-out nicely, lock the pins in & re-tension the belt but don't let the belt go completely slack when undoing the tensioner just slightly let off some tension & re-torque. Once again make sure the pin for the pump slides nicely in & out, take pins out, rotate the crank twice again & re-check marks & pump pin slides nice again.

If all is okay put her back together

[Blknight.aus]

The crankshaft and camshaft are spot on for timing and I'm 100% sure of that cause the flywheel was locked and the cam pulley was exactly right when I put the new belt in, the fuel pump cog can't be a tooth out either really to be honest because it was locked with a pin the whole time and I loosened the three bolts to get the belt on and to tension it.



you did what now?

[Defendozer]

Once I tensioned the belt I did the three bolts back up to spec whilst making sure that the locking pin was in the correct position,
I then turned the crank for two revolutions of the belt, put the locking pins back in (they all lined up) and re-tensioned it.

An update for you now though, I got the time yesterday to recheck the timing and valves, one of the valves was 2 thou over and another two were a bit tight, how much difference would that make to the running of the engine?

I also found that the fuel pump timing WAS a little bit out, no idea how though as it was spot on when I did it!! Oh well I must have missed something:(

But yeah the pin didn't properly go the whole way in so I once more loosened the three bolts and put a 22mm ring spanner on the nut in the middle and turned the pump a little till the pin lined up nicely and then all back together again.

Turned it over and hey wasn't the difference noticeable, fired straight up and ran like a dream:D Have been driving it today and it seems to be like new so I'm stoked:D

Thanks soooo much to you all, your time and advice is most appreciated:D

Honestly, owning a Landrover is one of the best things ever, so many helpful friendly people and lessons and skills learn't along the way are invaluable!

Thanks again, Remo

[manic]

Good to hear you sorted it defendozer.

Did the adjustment of the fuel pump timing get rid of the tapping noise?

[schuy1]

your loosening of the bolts to put the belt on is how it got out . That is not the way to do it . Just have a think about how that is possible and you will understand.
Cheers Scott

[Blknight.aus]

Whats happened is the 3 locking bolts that set the cam gear to drive plate have been undone. Depending on which pump setup you have (remembering that this pump is used in a few different engines with different drive configurations) either the drive gear or the drive plate has a large slot in it that the timing pin fits through and the other of the drive gear or drive plate has the closer tolerance hole to hold the pump in position.

with the one item held fast by the pin if you loosen off the 3 locking bolts that mount the 2 together the drive part with the larger tolerance for the timing pin clearance is free to rotate and will do so quite easily.

Remember the timing pin is really there to get the coarse timing of the injector pump to the cam and crank and right off the top of my head gives you a tolerance of about 8 degrees per tooth, thats on the pump which is turning at half crank speed so its 16ish degrees of crank per tooth on the pump.

[schuy1]

I was going to let him work the grey matter a bit Blknight! :D

[Defendozer]

Haha good call mate!!

And yeah I get now what your both saying, it all makes sense once you stop and think about it.

Adjusting the fuel pump timing did drastically reduce the tapping noise however it is still more pronounced then it used to be so will have to look into that.

Overall though it is running smoothly and I couldn't be happier! Just have to fix the wipers so they stop blowing the fuse all the time and my Defender will be up to scratch again:)

[Blknight.aus]

I was going to let him work the grey matter a bit Blknight! :D

lets be fair now its an easy trap to fall into and not work out if you've been taught how to do IP's by guys so redneck I seem white collar.

[chang]

Besides the loosening of the 3 bolts on IP gear to make it easier to get the belt on, the steps I listed are all but word for word from the overhaul manual for setting up the timing if the pump gear has been loosened.

After the re-tension of the belt there is no mention of rotating again & once again making sure the pin slides nicely in-out of the pump, which is the last step on my list & in the manual.

The problem would have been found straight away if a re-check was done right after, then could have been followed by rotating the IP as you did to slide the pin in-out nicely.

Always remember to check, recheck & then check again