Want to get this lot on the front rather than the rear!

[davidsonsm]

Been collecting engine bits over the past year or so. Bought a short engine that had been on its side and had seized. Damaged one piston and sleeve but otherwise all good (me hopes). New bearings, cam, timing gear, seals etc. Picked up ten 2nd hand HC pistons out of the states. Hoping orger engines can make it sing with new top hat liners. Dropped out off this morning.

Then I'll mate it to the reworked heads I have sitting in the garage. New lifters and rods of course.

[Keithy P38]

Sounds like a happening thing! Good luck!

[davidsonsm]

Turns out the cheap short engine I bought has a mushy (soft) block. Hardness readings below 80 means they won't touch it. Does that sound reasonable? Must have been overheated once too many times. The story I was told was that one piston had seized after the p38 had continued to run on its side. Hence the damaged piston and liner. Shame about the block.

Managed to source a new block for reasonable money. Just hoping the 2nd hand crankshaft & conrods check out ok. The crack test on the crankshaft was ok.

[davidsonsm]

Further developments. Orger have managed to sort out 8 good pistons from ten HC pistons I gave them - they were initially quibbling. But they can't assemble 8 gudgeon pins from the 18 I gave them. Need to get 8 new pins. Any suggestions? Don't want to have to buy new pistons.

I've had to buy +10" crankshaft bearings. Thought the crankshaft was still in tolerance, but they want to grind it. I'd originally given them standard bearings.

Also had to get extra 2nd hand conrod as one was bent.

Serves me right for trying to do an engine rebuild on the cheap!

[davidsonsm]

What a bloody palaver.

After the 2nd hand block failing so miserably on the hardness test, I had high hopes for the new block I'd sourced and supplied to Orger. They've found (legitimately) that it needs new bushings/sleeves for 2 of the camshaft bearings - due to poor LR casting. The casting is rough and oversized and won't hold the bearing in its current state.

There were three crankshaft oil galleries that needed drilling out - scary.

Also, it seems that the crankshaft caps have been swapped over at some point - so there is a step where the cap meets the block - meaning the crankshaft tunnel needs off-centre line boring. Jeese.

Of course, the orginal objective was to sleeve the block.

Does anybody want a soft block - they make nice coffee tables!!

Moral of the story - buy a ready made, sleeved long engine. Cash flow and cheapness on my part prevent me from doing this.

The cylinder heads are to be polished (0.002" to 0.003") again due to scratches. The skim had been done in the UK (cheap heads once again) - so can't blame Headworks for a job they didn't do. Headworks built up the heads and ported them - I'm hoping no further fault can be found with them.

And the latest: the 2nd hand high comp pistons I ordered out of the states are actually for a 4.0 - when I'd specifically ordered 4.6. The dangers of dealing with breakers in remote far off places. I've been back in touch with them to see what they say (for $175 landed - they were a bargin - or so I thought).

Using the 4.0 pistons would give me a compression ratio of 12.8 - a little high me thinks. The calcs show that a standard deck height of 0.030" with the 4.6litre HC pistons will produce 9.5:1 (any comments about quench/deck height?). Could the deck height be reduced for higher comp? Should it? Standard out of the factory was 9.38:1 I believe. The head skim is negated somewhat by the composite gasket.

Still waiting on the new piston/gudgeon pins. I've had to order these from Summit racing - do you realise how hard it is to get these things without the pistons. The pins that came with the 2nd hand pistons weren't considered worthy.

Now I'm in a bit of a quandry. Do I bite the bullet and get a new set of pistons (with pins and rings included). GBP299 incl VAT from V8 Tuner. Plus P&P of course. The price on Island4x4 is GBP47 each excl VAT for OEM quality or about half that for the Britpart version.

Can anybody offer any suggestions or alternatives?

I'd then have a set of 4.0litre HC pistons, with new pins and new rings to offload.

The bill is building. I'm getting nervous.

[davidsonsm]

Calculations reveal the following:

4.6 litre LC pistons have recess volume of 32.2c.c. With a 0.045" gasket and zero deck height, the compression is 9.3:1. A compression ratio of 9.5:1 can be achieved with a tdc piston protrusion of 0.005".

4.6 litre HC pistons have a recess volume of 22c.c. Producing 10:1 compression at 0.030" deck height. This deck height is per factory, but I've been told by a reliable source, it should be less - approaching zero to 0.05". This produces better torque.

So it looks like a recess volume of 27 c.c. is what would be ideal? To get the 10:1 ratio (LPG is one of the goals of this). Custom pistons are $1250!! Ouch.

Any comments/thoughts/observations. I'm no expert (as you can probably tell from all these screw ups) - so would appreciate advice.


I'm leaning towards the LC piston (which I can readily get of course) with the reduced deck height.

[clubagreenie]

Thats still a cheap set of pistons. Come back to me when you get pay 16,000 for a set and you've ordered 3 sets.

[davidsonsm]

Not sure what you mean? Why would a set of pistons cost 16,000 and why would need 3x sets?

[Keithy P38]

Dragster or very toey engine with mad forged pistons by the sounds of it...

Or a Cat 793 dumpy...

[davidsonsm]

or Formula 1. Not really relevent to Land Rovers.

[Keithy P38]

For $16k you'd have a pretty nice 3.0 twin turbo V6 diesel in a P38 ;-)

[clubagreenie]

Custom UZ pistons, made to order, min order of 24. Forged Mahle's based on Audi R8/10 design.

[Keithy P38]

That's a bit pricey for a UZ, it'd want to have multiple turbos or a massive supercharger between the valleys to justify that outlay ;-)

[clubagreenie]

Naturally aspirated, turbos are for those who can't think of how to make power.

But sounded awesome at 18,000rpm.

[benji]

I think I'd take the tdv6...

Good luck with it all. Sounds like the guy whos building it knows what he's doing.

[davidsonsm]

For $16k you'd have a pretty nice 3.0 twin turbo V6 diesel in a P38 ;-)

I'm not planning to spend anything like that amount. The cost is to be offset by selling my current engine. That's the plan.

[davidsonsm]

That's a bit pricey for a UZ, it'd want to have multiple turbos or a massive supercharger between the valleys to justify that outlay ;-)

Orger can get me custom pistons with dish volume of 25cc (CR of 10.2 with deck height of 0.005") for about $1250. But I've mentioned that. That's one option. The other I'd to source 2nd hand high comps and shave them from 22cc volume to 25cc to ensure the deck height and CR are right. This latter option is favoured at present.

[Bigbjorn]

Get on the internet and look for USA aftermarket high performance pistons. You need the bore size and the crown height.

[davidsonsm]

Yep. Been on to summit racing already. See what they say.

[davidsonsm]

Brian, what about compatibility with the original conrods? Assume I would need to specify the piston pin dia? Or are you suggesting new con rods too?

Anyone know the crown height of the err5554?

[clubagreenie]

You'll need bore, pin size & height plus retention method (press/circlip etc), skirt length, ring land heights.

Ideally find a rod/piston combo thats overall the same but a longer rod/shorter piston combo that also allows the crank to be negative offset ground with only 2-3mm loss of swept stroke (increases RPM, reduces bore/skirt side loading, reduces overall loads) and gains the swept volume loss back in oversize boring.

[davidsonsm]

At least the 2nd hand block is going to a good home. Martin has claimed it, to convert to a coffee table for his shed housed shrine to all things P38!! At least I hope its in the shed and not the lounge. Glad it'll live on, albeit not as LR intended it to function.

The only thing I'd request in return, is a beer from said coffee table whilst sat on the P38 lounge seats (are they functioning electric seats?). Luxury. Even when you're not in your road going P38, you can still feel enveloped and cosseted by it - wonderful.

[davidsonsm]

Managed to get a set of 4.6L pistons out of the UK for reasonable money - 2nd hand of course out of a 2001 model.

So I'll end up with a spare sets as follows: 4.6L LC pistons (32cc bowl/dish) & 4.0L HC (14cc dish/bowl) pistons.

I'll post them for sale eventually, but if anybody is interested, make me an offer. There's suffient piston pins to go with them, but you'll may prefer to source new ones.

[davidsonsm]

So the pistons I brought back from the UK have been bowled out to 25cc to allow for 0.005" deck height at TDC. The new gudgeon pins arrived from summit racing. Calcs show the CR will be 10.2.

The engine is pretty much assembled. The top hat liners are in. The crank tunnel was bored (see above) and bushes were made for 2 of the camshaft bearings. I've bought new oil pump internals. And Orger have sourced a custom vernier (rollmaster) timing set to go with the "mild road" Kent cam.

Next is assembly of the heads to check needed pushrod length.

Then I'll get them my currently installed flywheel to check balancing.

I'm mating my currently installed inlet manifold, which may need tinkering with given the machining that's been done.

Looking forward to getting the darn thing in.

[johnyrover]

I have just read through your posts and admire your tenacity. Good luck on your quest.:D

[davidsonsm]

Tenacity. Insane might be more appropriate. Just hoping the end result is worth it.

[davidsonsm]

Man and Machine: Season 1 Episode 2 - Shannons Club (http://www.shannons.com.au/club/video/man-and-machine-season-1-episode-2/)

Yep - looks like I'll be getting some royalties!!

I believe this is my engine that is featured. Looks good hey. Even more excited now.

[mtb_gary]

Man and Machine: Season 1 Episode 2 - Shannons Club (http://www.shannons.com.au/club/video/man-and-machine-season-1-episode-2/)

Yep - looks like I'll be getting some royalties!!

I believe this is my engine that is featured. Looks good hey. Even more excited now.

You are going to finish up with one brilliant engine (shiny clean brilliant too). $$$?

Gary

[davidsonsm]

Haven't seen the bill yet. I originally thought buying one from TRS or V8Tuner was too expensive. I'm still hoping that option will prove more expensuve than the path I've chosen. The upgrades were not intended to produce a hot rod. But the mods have gotta produce some grins - and torque. Standard LC engines can be pretty sluggish at times, depending on what you're towing and what's on board. As I'm sure we can all attest to.

I guess I'm paying for peace of mind and bullet proofing. Looks like I'll be taking this one to the grave. I'm 45 by the way.

[davidsonsm]

I wonder how soon it'll be before an oil leak develops. Straight out of the box? Are we taking bets?

[mtb_gary]

Haven't seen the bill yet. I originally thought buying one from TRS or V8Tuner was too expensive. I'm still hoping that option will prove more expensuve than the path I've chosen. The upgrades were not intended to produce a hot rod. But the mods have gotta produce some grins - and torque. Standard LC engines can be pretty sluggish at times, depending on what you're towing and what's on board. As I'm sure we can all attest to.

I guess I'm paying for peace of mind and bullet proofing. Looks like I'll be taking this one to the grave. I'm 45 by the way.

Hopefully not an early grave with all the additional power :twisted:

Gary

[davidsonsm]

Indeed. I'm certainly hoping not.

[davidsonsm]

Looking sweet as. Boy they look to have done a good job. The heart transplant is scheduled for next week.

[davidsonsm]

Well the old engine is out. Will be fitting new starter and water pump to the reconditioned engine going in. The oil pump gears were refreshed on the new engine. New belts and hoses of course, with seals and gaskets.

The inlet manifold from my original engine ended up being machined and ported to suit the heads - given the facing work, new composite gasket and deck work that was done. I've ended up with a CR of 10.2 - the pistons were bowled out slightly.

I've repainted the original rocker cover and plenum to set the new engine off. The drive plate needed no balancing. I've sourced ARP head bolts and the Kent Cam is "mild road".

I have some of the later Bosch "Ford 19lb" injectors, which I'm hoping will prove effective.

Looking forward to driving Nora with the new engine. Should be next week.

[davidsonsm]

The photos are of the old engine by the way. Only done 154,000kms. Martin at Rova Range is doing the swap. He has produced a report on the old engine and I'll be offloading it once the new engine is proven.

[clubagreenie]

I'm about to have to do head gaskets in the D2 and will be changing the cam to a 4.6 type (was running the 4.0), what are the bigger injectors you're running out of? Are they the 4.6 type or were they the same as the 4.0 and these are completely different (yet compatible), I might as well do it while apart as well.

[davidsonsm]

There's a thread I recall reading on here about the subject. The injectors are fairly generic (Ford 19lb is the search I started with) and are a good upgrade for the GEMS vintage engine - according to those in the know. The injectors were fitted to the later Motronic engines - instead of the Lucas injectors. RovaRange concurred.

I ended up buying from Extreme Auto Injectors out of the states. Cost landed for 8x reconditioned injectors was A$123.

I don't have the ebay item link any more, but the item description was:

1999-2000 Mercury Grand Marquis 4.6L Fuel Injectors OEM Set 4.6Bosch 19 lb EV6 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190881353257)

I believe these are the same/said item (but please buyer beware - do you're own research):

1986 to 1995 Ford Mustang 5 0L 302CI 19lb Bosch Fuel Injector Upgrade 4 Hole | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-to-1995-Ford-Mustang-5-0L-302ci-19LB-Bosch-Fuel-Injector-Upgrade-4-hole-/190936013184?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c74ac5980&vxp=mtr)

[davidsonsm]

Word of warning. The injectors I bought aren't the right ones. The electrical plug on the injector is wrong. Ended up buying new later generation bosch ones. The lucas (gems) injectors aren't well regarded.

On a positive note, my engine has been assembled. I'm missing Nora. She's been off the road for 3 weeks now. Want her back next week.

Got the brake modulator job done at the same time. Also having braided st stl +2" brake lines fitted.

[Keithy P38]

Can't wait to hear/see the results mate!

[mtb_gary]

Look'n good :twisted:

Gary

[clubagreenie]

So the THOR type injectors are OK then by comparison to the GEMS type and don't need upgrading by comparison, if I read it right?

[davidsonsm]

So the THOR type injectors are OK then by comparison to the GEMS type and don't need upgrading by comparison, if I read it right?

Yep - bang on the money. The BMW influenced P38 has the better (German of course) injectors. Sleep easy tonight!!

Is there a thread on here that talks about the pros and cons of GEMS vs Thor/Motronic/Bosch without mentioning the war?

[clubagreenie]

If I make the mistake of mentioning it I try to distract with a well timed Waldorf salad.

[Hoges]

In terms of remapping etc then it sems you are better off with the GEMS set up as it allows a deal of tinkering. The Thor engine has been specifically designed by the BMW engineers to make it virtually impossible for the average person-bloke to tinker. There's an extensive explanation on a BMW 318 forum (same Motronic 5.2.1 setup) ...their beef was that there was minimal opportunity to tune the 318 engine for competition use... and you can only change it back and forth 12-14 changes (anymore than that and it becomes a "brick"!) see Motronic 5.2 Reprogramming (http://www.318ti.org/notebook/motronic_reprogramming/)

I did wonder about integrating a Thor engine to a GEMS ECU...but I'm not a systems integration engineer and so would not know where to start! They each have fuel injectors, a CPS, CKS, MAF, etc etc but use different numbers to 'talk'to the Traction control., auto transmission etc.I don't have the knowledge and a thousand hours or so of development time!

[Offender90]

What Hoges said regarding the Bosch ECU. I also wanted to add, in terms of intake manifold geometry, Thor has a slightly larger throttle body (68mm instead of 65mm), and longer intake runners, which translates to better breathing (more torque available) at lower RPM at the expense of higher RPM performance.

With regard to replacement injectors, Rover uses an EV1 connector. Bosch Gen III (thin plastic body) are regarded as having a better spray pattern to Bosch Gen II (thick metal body), but both are much better than then Rover's Lucas disc type injector. A couple of comparisons below:


Lucas Vs Bosch Gen 3 Vs Bosch Gen 2 (yellowtop) Vs several others

comparison bosch 24 multec lucas bosch3 bosch yellowtop bosch22 - YouTube

and a better comparison of Bosch Generation III vs Generation II spray patterns

comparison of Bosch 3 to Early design Bosch 2 - YouTube

It would be worth mentioning that Bosch Generation 3 injectors do not have a provision for a circlip which secures the top of the injector to the fuel rail, however it really isn't needed. The fuel rail is rigid enough and secured to the intake manifold in such a way that the injectors are jammed between the two and have nowhere to go.

HTH

Bojan

[davidsonsm]

I have to admit to being rather aroused by the sound of my new engine. Sexy as. Jeese I'm excited. Picking her up today. Just heard her running.

Now to break her in. Any recommendations? Oil change after 500km? Somebody said that towing a "house" up a hill at medium revs was a good way of achieving run in? So has anybody got a caravan they need relocating?

Be interesting to drive her. That's the weekend planned then. Get reacquainted. Will have to dig out the barry white. Must remember the tissues. Ooooh errrr misses phnarr phnarr :cool:

[Keithy P38]

Good to hear mate!

I've always run engines in at low to mid revs and under load. The first engine I built for my Torana, I loaded the boot with bricks and went up the nearest mountain range. Third gear all the way up at about 2500rpm was enough load to really warm the engine and make it work!

The worst things you can do to an engine while bedding in are:
- Sit at idle for long periods of time
- Granny drive
- Drive like Peter Brock
- Sit at constant revs

My advice? Chuck a trailer with something heavy on the back and 'drive' it. Don't flog the life out of it, just make it work and get warm but not hot. And don't labour the engine at low revs. Keep the working rev range between 2000rpm and 2700rpm.

Cheers
Keithy

[davidsonsm]

So initial impressions are good. Not cataclysmic results. Not that you'd expect that from a 2.5tonne vehicle. But definitely more sprightly and more get up and go. Torque'yer. If that's a word. Taking it easy so far. Sounds amazing. Just the noise alone restores the bank balance of the mind.

It'll be tight for a while. I guess further improvements will be felt gradually.

Will post a video clip a when I get chance. Just nice to have her home.

[clubagreenie]

Looking back a few posts at the Gems v Thor debate. Trying to remember the maths but 65 to 68mm CIA with the extra length as well, a few things change. Sure there's the physical size but with that also an change in laminar flow area as well. There's a rough ratio for it I can't locate at the moment but for all.purposes and as long as the plenum volume was correct enough for each there'd be very little if any difference between them until you got over 6000rpm at least and started to run out of reserve gas volume in the system and it started to starve. Modifying the design of the plenum is first step then increases in size & length.

For our purposes (primarily torque & eco) stick to what it is. Else negative offset grind the crank. Use Honda (smaller) main bearings. Make/find new rods and pistons to suit new shorter stroke and reduced rod angle. gain ho andbrevs atvalexpense of economy and torque.