Auto transmission problem

[Hendrous]

G'day all,

Over the last week my D1 has started to slip a bit when I'm on a bit of a hill and trying to take off. It only does it for about 2 seconds and it doesn't always do it.

The old girl has done about 400 000 and it is the original auto box so I can't complain if I'm due a replacement gear box. The fluid was changed about 70 000 k's ago and I've only just realized I'm meant to change a filter in the auto gearbox from time to time.

Don't suppose a change of filter and new fluid could just maybe resolve this slipping issue? Will driving it a little stuff things up further?

Thanks in advance for any ideas about what's most likely wrong with it.

Chrs

Mark

[bee utey]

Sounds like it's simply low on fluid. When did you last check the level?

[Hendrous]

I've tried checking the fluid but can't seem to get a proper reading on the dipstick..Followed the manual in terms of having it cold, running and in park but when I wipe the dipstick and check it all I see is ATF half way up the dipstick if that makes sense, that is it seems to be well above the max level, but I haven't added any fluid for some time and the ATF was replaced about 70 000 k's ago when I had the transfer box changed by a mechanic.

[DiscoMick]

70,000 is a long time between auto fluid changes. I do mine every 20,000, but I'm a bit anal. Why don't you change it and see if that helps?
Check the manual to see how much oil is recommended.

[THE BOOGER]

I've tried checking the fluid but can't seem to get a proper reading on the dipstick..Followed the manual in terms of having it cold, running and in park but when I wipe the dipstick and check it all I see is ATF half way up the dipstick if that makes sense, that is it seems to be well above the max level, but I haven't added any fluid for some time and the ATF was replaced about 70 000 k's ago when I had the transfer box changed by a mechanic.

I don't think land rover really wanted us to check the fluid on a d1 seems to impossible:D

[bee utey]

Take out the dipstick and let it idle for a few minutes before dipping a clean stick. Getting oil part way up the tube wrecks the reading. RAVE says to check with the engine at operating temperature, idling in neutral.

[RR P38]

Mmm 70,000k is a lot.
I would be doing the filter and the fluid asap. With a bit of a flush as well.
with 400,000 on the clock its done well.

I am near 350,000 now on original box and all is well.

[coops71]

Maybe a set of gradual changes. A large change in auto fluid can be fatal to autos with bad fluid. Had the experience with an auto Camry.

[Hendrous]

Thanks fella's for the replies.

Seems I've been a bit slack with the ATF changes!

Coops, what do you mean by gradual changes..do I drain a little fluid, replace, run it and repeat before doing a full change?

And as goes flushing, is there a special fluid for this?

Finally, how difficult is the filter change. I looked at a few utube clips and if I'm looking at the right gearbox it looks relatively easy (yet my Heynes manual is saying to leave it to a pro.)

Chrs

Mark

[steelo]

I have a 96 v8 with 168000k's on the clock, the oil was smelling a bit burnt so I read the manual & it says 9.8L of oil. So went & paid nearly 100 bucks & got 10L but when I drained it only about 4.5 L came out even though the dipstick said it was over full & reasonably red/clear???? The oil that came out was as black as old engine oil & had a some small bits in it, I tried running the motor for short stints to make sure I was getting every bit out.
When I refilled it, it also only took about 4.5L??? I couldn't at the time do the filter as we were on a trip & it was Sat arvo in Gladstone & just about everything was shut :eek: but will be doing it asap when we get home.
Does 9.8L of tranny fluid sound right or not?:(

[OlliesLRover]

Finally, how difficult is the filter change. I looked at a few utube clips and if I'm looking at the right gearbox it looks relatively easy (yet my Heynes manual is saying to leave it to a pro.)

Chrs
Mark

Mine is a 94 3.9 auto and I had the filter changed recently by the pros, I know the guys there so I was able to watch, and there is no way I would have been able to do it myself.

They had to drop the exhaust from the manifold and basically remove the cross member before they could get at the transmission, all up it took them 3hrs total plus they had the right tools.

All up it cost me $407 - $218 labour - $152 parts

Pricey but it sure made a difference.

[OlliesLRover]

Does 9.8L of tranny fluid sound right or not?:(

Just had a look at my bill , they charged me for 5L ($60) so your 4.5l seem about right.

[Hendrous]

Thanks Ollie

Will have a good think about whether I tackle the filter change..
In the meantime I might try to change the fluid and see what that will do.

I just went up to the auto parts joint and grabbed 8 litres of Dex 111 and a litre of a lucas additive which claims to work miracles extending auto life and stopping slipping. For $20 I thought might as well give it a go .

Hopefully I can get more oil out than Steelo..no expert but if your oil is black like engine oil that does not sound good mate..

With the changeover, Coops, what is the way to go doing this gradually? Should i get some oil out, fill it up, drive a bit and then drain the lot to semi flush the box?

Any other tips appreciated before I get under the beast and start messing up my driveway.

Chrs

Mark

[Hendrous]

Forgot to add, I checked the ATF level as advised and it seems to be sitting at the twist on the stick..well above the max line. Must have been like this since the TGB was changed over so I assume this does not real harm. Oil looks red and pretty clean. Is there a chance this high reading indicates the pump is blocked up or buggered, ie not pushing the oil around?

Chrs

[RR P38]

Some times changing the fluid...when it hasnt been done for a long time the new fluid dislodges a lot of sediment in the system, this causes blockages in the valve body and shift problems.
Im pretty sure if you change the fluid and the filter and give it a good clean it will be fine.
Sure there are stories about people doing a service and the next day the box fails........was it because of the service or was it just knackered, a coincidence or introduced contamination?
ATF has high detergent properties so its like most oils it cleans as it goes.
I would drop the ATF, refill drive it for a day or 2 then drop the fluid again and do the filter. I open my filter up after I pull it out and take a look at what it has collected)

Obviously the best way to do it, is at a good trans repairer, they can do a proper flush, I think they pull a hose at the cooler and refill the system as the waste oil comes out the hose (engine running).......I wouldnt try this nor advise the novice to do this.

From manual for a P38;
Automatic gearbox
4.6 V8 up to ’99MY .................................................. 11 litres 4.0 V8 (& 4.6 V8 from ’99MY) ................................. 9.7 litres Diesel .................................................. .................... 9.7 litres
Transfer box
From dry .................................................. ................ 2.4 litres Refill .................................................. ...................... 2.0 litres

This is from empty ie new.

I only ever get 5-6 litres out of mine, it depends on how long you leave it draining.
You need Torx tools for the filter.
Its fairly easy as a job, getting the pan filter back on without a twist is usually my main problem, get an OEM one.
Cleanliness is the key with a transmission when you open it up.
Give it a good degrease and wash before you start on it.
Your T Case definitely needs a change as well after 70,000k.

8nm for the Pan gasket and the filter bolts.

[Discomark]

Half the fluid gets stuck in the TC and cooler lines etc so 4.5 litres is about all that can be drained out from the sump. Some transmission shops have transfer pumps to get the lot out but a lot of fluid is required when flushing so its not cheap. Some members have disconnected the cooler hoses and drained into a bucket while gravity feeding new fluid into the box via the return cooler hose. There was a post on here somewhere with that method but I've not tried it myself as yet.
My box started slipping at 140k due to excess heat when towing and I tried a fluid change but ended up with a rebuild due to the friction plates worn out. In my case the fluid had a burned smell with fibrous debris which most likely came from the plates.
The filter change on a TDI is easier than on a V8 as you don't need to worry about the exhaust and from memory and only need to drop one side of the cross member. It would be a tricky job to remove the sump when lying underneath though so the job is much easier when the cars up on a ramp.
Cheers
Mark

[Hendrous]

Thanks for the replies,

I've changed the ATF and taken it for a short drive. Still did the slip when making a right hand turn in 1st. It sure feels like a slipping trans when it happens, but I'm surprised it isn't doing it consistently and the fact it mostly happens when turning right from a standstill has me a bit curious about whether it is something else holding it back.

For now I've got a filter on the way and will change that out when I drain it the second time and see how that goes..

Fingers are crossed, but I have a sinking feeling due to the k's on it. This slipping only started after going up and down the Glaston Gorge road each day for about a month and all the hairpins were working the gears over.

Chrs

Mark

[VladTepes]

Got me worried as I noticed mine doing this a couple of times - notably in reverse. I was worried I wouldn' be able to reverse up the driveway and would end up rolling down through the (closed) garage door....

[Discomark]

If all else fails and you need a professional opinion try giving Joe a call at ATA in Sydney. They did the rebuild on mine and are very knowledgeable with ZF boxe's. Transmissions | Auto Trans Australia (http://www.autotransaustralia.com.au/transmissions)
Also ZF themselves are at Arndell park but you will need to remove the box yourself or get someone to remove for you it if you want ZF to rebuild it.
ZF Friedrichshafen AG | ZF in Australia (http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/company/locations_worldwide/asia_pacific/australia/index.html)
Cheers
Mark

[RR P38]

I have heard plenty of good reports on Trans Doctor.
But if the friction plates are worn out its no magically going to re grow them.

[steelo]

Just had a look at my bill , they charged me for 5L ($60) so your 4.5l seem about right.

When I spoke to my local LR guy about this he just asked me if I'd done the torque converter as well, as the rest of the oil is in there. Can you drain & refill the torque converter yourself?? :confused:

[steelo]

Hopefully I can get more oil out than Steelo..no expert but if your oil is black like engine oil that does not sound good mate..


I just drove home from Gladstone to Hervey Bay towing a 16'6" pop-top van & the return trip was easier than going there, but........
I did notice the tunnel got quite hot (not as hot as before but) after about a 100klm, I am putting this down to the torque converter & it was hard to hold a steady speed without putting the boot in & getting some kick back. :)

[Hendrous]

G'day all,

Following the recipe prescribed and it is going alot better already- thanks again for offering the suggestions. I'm not getting anymore slip in 1st and the gear changes seem to be smoother after the first oil change.
I've got the new filter and gasket and intend to have a crack at changing the filter tomorrow assuming I'm not too hungover after origin tonight.

Before I hit the inevitable snags, can anyone confirm whether I need to move around the muffler with a 300 tdi. Doesn't look like it but the rave talks about moving heat shields and I can't see such a thing on mine.
The chassis crossbar which I understand needs to be removed also appears to be support the TG box- will I need to support that if I remove the cross bar?
Final query ..should I be checking the cooler lines are clear somehow? Looking under there just now it occurred to me they could be clogged with crap and heating everything up. Any ideas on how to flush them ?


Chrs
Mark

[THE BOOGER]

Hey Hendrous I did the filter on my 300tdi about 2 weeks ago didn't need to remove the crossmember but I did loosen the rear tranmission mount and move it about 1 cm. I ley it drain for a couple of hours on ramps the put it back together and filled:)

[Hendrous]

Right..that would be a bonus if I didn't need to remove the crossbar.
I assume you pushed the auto and TG box up a bit to get the auto pan out? Is that what you mean?

[THE BOOGER]

No I moved the mounting bracket it has enough movement to get the socket on the 1 bolt that causes the problem:)

[Hendrous]

Still haven't had time to get under the car and sort out this AT filter. First Origin got me out of sorts on Thursday and then the cricket started again...sleep deprivation and a hangover not being a good start for lying on your back under a vehicle.

So I was driving it around today (still after first oil change) and I'm pretty sure the auto is doing some funny stuff unfortunately..not slipping in first now, but it it is hunting a bit when you pull up in first and there is a bit of a shake going on when sitting in drive with the foot on the brake. Then again I'm sitting there lookiing for problems now! And this is an issue in itself. I can't see myself going anywhere remote with this in the back of my mind.

Do I carry on with the filter and another oil change or bite the bullet and just change the auto?

As it happens I have a secondhand auto gear box sitting in the shed which came with the TGB . Been sitting there for 3 years now.

What worries me is I called my mechanic in Sydney to ask about getting him to put this in and he fobbed the job off as he is a one man band and won't do a gearbox. Is it really that hard to handle? I guess he also doesn't want to get caught up with someone elses secondhand parts, but still it has given me pause to think- how much fun will changing the auto really be? How much pain and suffering am I prepared to take for the saving?

Is it harder to swap an auto gearbox than say doing a head gasket?

Will I really need an engine crane with straps or can you support the gear box on jacks and get the old one out and replacement in on a skateboard or something with a bit more stability?

Chrs

Mark

[DiscoMick]

Doing a filter sounds a lot easier than changing a gearbox.

[Disckombi]

I would say definitely harder, or at least a lot more awkward, than doing a head gasket.
It is possible to remove using jacks and some kind of skateboard (I've got a low, about 2.5" high, steel trolley on castors) but unless you have the car up pretty high to start with you may have to also jack the side of the car up as well to actually pull the box out from under. Then there's re-installing - all good fun

[RR P38]

Filter and ATF= $65, Trans replacement by mechanic $3k+

I would go the former........give it a go, put some Trans Dr in it and see what happens. Open the filter up and see whats in it.

You say you have another Trans, give it to ZF and get it rebuilt.
Your in Sydney.......take it to ATV in Five dock he gets a trans specialist in to rebuild his ZF boxes.

[Hendrous]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
You are right - I might as well change the filter and pop some more ATF in and see what happens.

If that doesn't do the trick I'm reluctant to go with an expensive auto rebuild as the old beast has a number of problems and I'm in quandary about whether it is worth spending 3k on a vehicle worth 5k. The 2nd hand auto transmission which came with the transfer box was supposed to be in good working order when I bought it. Not sure what sitting around in the shed gathering dust would have done for it, but I'm tempted to take the chance on it lasting another 100 000 km's and just hope I don't waste my time doing the changeover.

Anyways one step at a time. I'll do the filter as suggested and see if that works.

Chrs

Mark

[DiscoMick]

Might be worth getting an auto specialist to check the clutch packs and everything generally, in case a good service by an expert can keep it going.

[steelo]

So what's this Dr Tranny stuff? :)

[Vanderz]

sounds like a bloke thats specializes in turning men into women and vice versa!

[steelo]

sounds like a bloke thats specializes in turning men into women and vice versa!

LOL :Rolling: I've heard/read people on this & other threads about auto boxes refer to it as a bit of a thing to try :D

[Vanderz]

LOL :Rolling: I've heard/read people on this & other threads about auto boxes refer to it as a bit of a thing to try :D

I heard its irreversible though!!! :eek:

[Vanderz]

thats enough outta me. sorry Fellas..

As you were

[Hendrous]

Managed to get the auto filter changed yesterday and I pulled apart the old filter as suggested. There was about a quarter of a teaspoon of metal filings in the bottom and the oil in there was fairly sludgy.

With the new filter in it is changing gears smoothly and as yet no slippage in first. There is also a noticeable drop in the hunting problem when in drive and stationary.
DOes this mean the clutch plates binding up or the oil pump wasn't able to push enough oil around, or was it the torque converter?
Whatever the problem it is driving a lot better- thanks again for the tips fellas.
'The Booger' cheers to you for telling me about moving the mounting plate for the TG, with that to one side I got that last clamp on the sump and that saved me removing the cross member which is a bigger deal.

Have also changed the TG oil as suggested and what was in there looked pretty bad -magnet has quite a bit of metal stuck to it.


Looks like the second-hand auto box can stay in the shed for a little while yet. In prep for the eventual failure i might check out the filter on the second -hand auto to see what sort of state that is in.

Chrs

Mark

[RR P38]

Thats all good then mate.
I wouldnt get too fussed about the metal in the filter that sound like normal wear to me.......especially considering you had 70,000k probably more on that ATF.
Was there any fibrous material in there it looks like lint?
Im guessing there wasnt, this is a good sign your friction plates are still good.
The sludge in the filter was probably restricting the pick up for the pump.
If it was my D1 and I was looking at keeping it I would drop both those fluids again in 2000ks or less. Im not sure what the service interval is on the filter on your model probs 30,000k.
Get down to Repco and use their Repco Dextron 3 ATF its cheap and good quality, if you are an NRMA member it is only $32 for 5 litres.

[Hendrous]

As I feared the slipping is back. Only in first, it comes and goes, but I'm thinking there is no point ignoring the fact the tranny is on the way out.
I made some enquiries about getting a rebuilt box and it seems I can get one for $1100 with a one year guarantee, or 650 for a second hand one wit 3mh warranty I'm just a bit curious how the rebuild could be done for the extra 550? I asked whether this meant new clutch plate and seals and was told yes. Alternatively they said I can give them my box get the same rebuild for 1100.
What should I be asking/insisting they replace before committing and getting a final figure? Just sounds a bit ad hoc to me. Also not sure if they are including the torque converter just yet.
Any ideas , or recommendations on where to go for a reliable reduild appreciated. ZF wouldn't deal direct and referred me to some mob but I haven't pursued that one as it didn't get a good rap from my mechanic
Chrs

Mark

[RR P38]

Try ATV on Queen st Fivedock, Frank runs the place.
I know he gets a Trans specialist in for his rebuilds (ZF)

The master rebuild kit is not that expensive its on about $250 form memory, its the time that costs, pulling the sucker out and refitting.
Pretty sure you can send the Trans to ZF in Melbourne and the ship it back to you.

[Hendrous]

Thanks RR P38,

Frank, I pm'd the name of the mob. Haven't done anything myself yet as the problem has gone away again!
Now wondering if I could drop the ATF again and maybe that will clear whatever is causing the intermittent issue..It is changing so well through all gears I'm just wondering if there isn't a simple reason why the slight slip is happening in first..
I will probably take it into an auto specialist like the one suggested and get a proper diagnosis before doing anything about changing the box.
Chrs
Mark

[DiscoMick]

If I were you then, now that you've changed the filter and the oil once, I would certainly try changing the oil again before taking it to anyone. There are transmission cleaners such as Dr Tranny that can be used to flush these gearboxes, but I can't comment on their effectiveness. I think you tip the flusher in, run it for a while, then drain it and refill.

[RR P38]

Thanks RR P38,

Frank, I pm'd the name of the mob. Haven't done anything myself yet as the problem has gone away again!
Now wondering if I could drop the ATF again and maybe that will clear whatever is causing the intermittent issue..It is changing so well through all gears I'm just wondering if there isn't a simple reason why the slight slip is happening in first..
I will probably take it into an auto specialist like the one suggested and get a proper diagnosis before doing anything about changing the box.
Chrs
Mark

If you just want a look see done on it by a pro.
Mc Graw transmissions on Parramatta rd Croydon, left side of rd coming out of town. This guy has been in the trade for decades for an opinion you can rely on he is very good.