sump oil

[dero]

Has anyone here run their car on sump oil ?
Apparently it works , and some trucks do it , presumably injected.
I was wondering if a small amount of suitably filtered oil added to a tank would cause any problems .
The only setups I have heard of seem to run a separate tank heated & swapped over when the engine is hot .

[Tank]

Has anyone here run their car on sump oil ?
Apparently it works , and some trucks do it , presumably injected.
I was wondering if a small amount of suitably filtered oil added to a tank would cause any problems .
The only setups I have heard of seem to run a separate tank heated & swapped over when the engine is hot .
Unless you could filter out all of the carbon particles it would be like pumping grinding paste through the injector pump and Injector nozzles. I think if you could get the abarsives out for reasonable cost it might be feasible, but if it hasn't been done commercially by now there must be a good reason, regards Frank.

[goingbush]

Want to chip in ?, buy one of these plants , waste oil and plastic bottle donations gratefully received

Plastic to Diesel Process,Waste oil and Plastic to Diesel (http://www.globalfinest.com/)

[ramblingboy42]

hmmmm I'd take a bet that the red tape required from local councils, state agencies and federal licenses would be piled so high you probably wouldn't get ever get approval to set up such a plant. I'm also sure that with a 6million litre annual production that the major oil companies are going to somehow put stumbling blocks in front of you. The concept is brilliant, why aren't these plants popping up?

[justinc]

Filter then Centrifuge the waste oil, then run through a normal fuel system filtration system and preheated it should work in old school diesels...:)

Simple Centrifuge ...putting a centrifuge in every garage! (http://www.simplecentrifuge.com/)

There's heaps about this on the web


JC,

[SouthOz]

It is filtered in the engine by the oil filter. Fuel is filtered before it gets to your pump or injectors. Carbon is a lubricant not an abrasive. Dilute it 3 parts diesel to 1 part used engine oil. Its been done for years all round the world.
Would I use it in my Disco? Probably not.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/12954

Dave

[Bearman]

I have seen British Field Marshall and Lanz Bulldog tractors run on a mixture of sump/gear oil and parts cleaning fluids. Looked like a steam train coming in the distance :D

[isuzurover]

It is filtered in the engine by the oil filter.
To a much larger size than a diesel fuel filter filters to.


Carbon is a lubricant not an abrasive.

Sorry but that is complete rubbish.
e.g. see http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-1990/ and many other papers on soot induced wear



Its been done for years all round the world.


That doesn't mean it is a good idea (e.g lots of people fit K&N's, hiclones and fuel polarisers...). A few weeks ago I posted a recent paper by Cummins which states that lube oil [sump oil] should not be added to any diesels (including cummins diesels of course).

It is illegal in most 1st world countries these days AFAIK.

[Blknight.aus]

carbon is a lubricant....

when its specially shaped, into the form of graphite and kept dry.

Graphite lube, best thing for the ignition lock (not the switch) in your defender...

till some idiot sprays wd40 or similar in there.

[SouthOz]

To a much larger size than a diesel fuel filter filters to.



Sorry but that is complete rubbish.
e.g. see Soot Induced Cam Wear in Diesel Engines: An Investigation Using Thin Layer Activation (http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-1990/) and many other papers on soot induced wear



That doesn't mean it is a good idea (e.g lots of people fit K&N's, hiclones and fuel polarisers...). A few weeks ago I posted a recent paper by Cummins which states that lube oil [sump oil] should not be added to any diesels (including cummins diesels of course).

It is illegal in most 1st world countries these days AFAIK.

If used as a fuel it would go through your fuel filter and be filtered to an appropriate level, not used unfiltered.

You forgot to quote my last sentence.

Would I use it in my Disco? Probably not.

Dave

[isuzurover]

...

If used as a fuel it would go through your fuel filter and be filtered to an appropriate level, not used unfiltered.
...

Full flow engine oil filters have 50% particle removal at 25-50 microns.

Fuel filters have 50% particle removal at 5-15 microns

Soot is << 1 micron.

So your fuel filter won't remove any significant amount of soot.

[goingbush]

This engine runs seems to just fine on its own crude that it pumps out of the ground, does not appear to be any filtration at all before the lift pump.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1309.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1310.jpg

but seems a greener way of doing things, no refinery waste or transportation costs.

[isuzurover]

This engine runs seems to just fine on its own crude that it pumps out of the ground...

Many Australian crudes are very light - e.g. gippsland crude has about the same viscosity and density as diesel, and is a pale straw colour. Also, importantly, crude is not full of soot particles.

Many overseas crudes look like mud.



...does not appear to be any filtration at all before the lift pump.
...
I bet you would be wrong on that one.

[SouthOz]

Full flow engine oil filters have 50% particle removal at 25-50 microns.

Fuel filters have 50% particle removal at 5-15 microns

Soot is << 1 micron.

So your fuel filter won't remove any significant amount of soot.

Soot is << 1 micron. shouldnt cause any problems them if your filter lets through contaminates that are 5-15 microns?

Dave

[isuzurover]

Soot is << 1 micron. shouldnt cause any problems them if your filter lets through contaminates that are 5-15 microns?

Dave

:confused: How hard is it to explain these concepts???

Soot causes wear. Soot is not a normal component of fuel, so fuel filters aren't designed to remove it. Removing particles of that size from fuel is very hard.

[SouthOz]

How hard is it to understand that if the fuel filter lets it through it isnt big enough to be a problem?

Soot = carbon. Carbon in a lubricant not an abrasive.

What Is Graphite Lubricant? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/about_6385272_graphite-lubricant_.html)

Dave

[isuzurover]

How hard is it to understand that if the fuel filter lets it through it isnt big enough to be a problem?

Soot = carbon. Carbon in a lubricant not an abrasive.

What Is Graphite Lubricant? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/about_6385272_graphite-lubricant_.html)

Dave

I posted a Society of Automotive engineers paper on "soot induced wear" on the previous page, and you reply with ehow dribble???

[SouthOz]

Soot = carbon. Carbon in a lubricant not an abrasive. you disagree?

Heres an idea, dont use diluted used diesel oil in ya fuel tank.

Dave

[Tombie]

Soot = carbon. Carbon in a lubricant not an abrasive. you disagree?

Heres an idea, dont use diluted used diesel oil in ya fuel tank.

Dave

Dave

You're arguing with a guy who is a specialist in this field.

Carbon is also:
A diamond
A conductor
A grinding medium

EGR systems introduce Soot (Carbon) back into the intake and cause wear and damage.

Graphite has its own name as its a particular version of the material and has differing properties.

Kish is also Carbon.


In a similar vein, Silica is Sand.
It's abrasive.(blasting)
When melted its smooth (glass)
When it's liquid it's corrosive to refractory.

Many compounds display differing behaviours and can't be simply described.


Some trucks did inject fine quantities of oil into the engine - whilst replacing from a fresh oil tank. I'm not sure if its still a compliant method in new trucks.
The volume introduced was very controlled.

[goingbush]

Carbon as a fuel too ??

Dad made a gas producer that burned wood to make fuel for his old Buick Straight 8 , when petrol rationing was on during the 50's .
cant have been too healthy for the engine with all that soot pumping thru , probably fail todays emmission test I guess.

I still bet modern greenies would be happy running their Peugot 504's on one of these, despite global warming.

Wood Gas Producers (http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/woodfire3.htm)

[isuzurover]

... I'm not sure if its still a compliant method in new trucks.
The volume introduced was very controlled.

No longer compliant in just about all 1st world countries AFAIK. And certainly no longer approved by engine manufacturers e.g. cummins.

Some good info on fuel filtration here...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/177791-importance-clean-fuel-good-filtration-especially-commonrail-diesels.html

[Tombie]

Didn't think it would be!

[Sitec]

Was thinking about this today whilst at work.. Re the sump oil... No. That's a given! What I was thinking about tho was the burning of wood to make fuel... Most of the pics I've seen of home made smoke producers to run engines are very basic... and most of the fuel is probably soot, but, having been part of a Compartment Fire Fighting course a month ago where I was in a 40' shipping container watching fire behaviour, got me thinking. When wood reaches the pyrolysis stage, gas is given off... around the 400deg mark. To get this flammable vapour at a continuous flow would take quite a bit of control. If this could be done, Am I right in thinking that the soot amount would be minimal as its gas that's given off.. (This very same gas that is so volatile when fed with oxygen causing flashover). For those who have not seen flashover, check it out on YouTube, quite interesting, especially in America where smashing the window of a burning house and pointing a fan into that newly made hole seems to be a good plan!!!! By the way, its not! Think I'll stick to my cooking oil filtration, its easier!!

[ramblingboy42]

If used as a fuel it would go through your fuel filter and be filtered to an appropriate level, not used unfiltered.

You forgot to quote my last sentence.

Would I use it in my Disco? Probably not.

Dave

From all I've read and and understand you could use it successfully in a TD5 ......I'm sure that was part of the engines original specs... that it was to be able to run satisfactorily on almost any combustible oil of suitable viscosity.

[Tombie]

From all I've read and and understand you could use it successfully in a TD5 ......I'm sure that was part of the engines original specs... that it was to be able to run satisfactorily on almost any combustible oil of suitable viscosity.

And suitable cleanliness.

The TD5 was tested on Kerosene.

The high injection pressures / nozzles don't like 'dirty' liquid.

[isuzurover]

Was thinking about this today whilst at work.. Re the sump oil... No. That's a given! What I was thinking about tho was the burning of wood to make fuel... Most of the pics I've seen of home made smoke producers to run engines are very basic... and most of the fuel is probably soot, but, having been part of a Compartment Fire Fighting course a month ago where I was in a 40' shipping container watching fire behaviour, got me thinking. When wood reaches the pyrolysis stage, gas is given off... around the 400deg mark. To get this flammable vapour at a continuous flow would take quite a bit of control. If this could be done, Am I right in thinking that the soot amount would be minimal as its gas that's given off.. (This very same gas that is so volatile when fed with oxygen causing flashover). For those who have not seen flashover, check it out on YouTube, quite interesting, especially in America where smashing the window of a burning house and pointing a fan into that newly made hole seems to be a good plan!!!! By the way, its not! Think I'll stick to my cooking oil filtration, its easier!!

You can see that this conversion has a huge cyclone after the furnace to remove particulates.
Wood gas car in Helsinki 2012 - YouTube
Filters and scrubbers are usually also used.

However even with all that wood gas engines have a lot of problems with particulates.

[123rover50]

Well lots of stuff on Google on using waste oil.
Seems the use of a centrifuge is better than filtration.
Can buy one from the U.S. but does anyone know of any being made on OZ.
WVO Designs | WVO Centrifuges | Waste Vegetable Conversion (http://www.wvodesigns.com/)
With vege oil getting hard to find it seems waste lube or ATF is the go.

Didiman

[dero]

I have been looking at these for a while , I think you can get them for around $600 in the US .
Can anyone with a genuine knowledge on the subject please tell me ...If sump oil from your average 300TDI can be safely used as an additive in the diesel tank [ at the appropriate rate ] if treated properly with one of these centrifuges ?

[Bigbjorn]

Some time ago many US fleets had a filtration and blending plant made by Racor that separated moisture, filtered, and blended used oils into the bulk distillate supply at a ratio chosen by the operators. Their clean air laws put a stop to this although I am sure many operators just kept on doing this while they could. After all, a gallon of used oil burnt in the engine was $3 in the pocket.

[Sitec]

Mmmmm, stumbled back onto this thread having had a conversation with 107gus in the shed earlier.... So, how about hydraulic/agritrans oil??? If filtered down to about two microns, wud this work?? Have access to lots of this when changing oils on late model Powershift tractors... The oil comes out looking as clean as it went in, has spent its life going thru clutch packs and then large hydraulic filters.... :)

[Blknight.aus]

not modern hydraulic oils...

the exhaust gasses would be toxic.

[Sitec]

not modern hydraulic oils...

the exhaust gasses would be toxic.

Fair enough... Best we not burn it in the Demon Heater in the workshop again!!! :D

[dromader driver]

Sitec, get a Kroll kozy or put a flue on the demon. Jobs done and your warm.

[123rover50]

Mmmmm, stumbled back onto this thread having had a conversation with 107gus in the shed earlier.... So, how about hydraulic/agritrans oil??? If filtered down to about two microns, wud this work?? Have access to lots of this when changing oils on late model Powershift tractors... The oil comes out looking as clean as it went in, has spent its life going thru clutch packs and then large hydraulic filters.... :)

Quite a bit on this on the net. Hydraulic oil supposed to be the best oil to use. Takes less cleaning.
Filter it , chuck in a bit of ULP and put it in your tank. So I have read anyway.
ATF is supposed to be just as good but hard to get from the Auto trans shops.

Petrol exhaust gases are toxic anyway so is toxic diesel exhaust a problem?

[Blknight.aus]

Quite a bit on this on the net. Hydraulic oil supposed to be the best oil to use. Takes less cleaning.
Filter it , chuck in a bit of ULP and put it in your tank. So I have read anyway.
ATF is supposed to be just as good but hard to get from the Auto trans shops.

Petrol exhaust gases are toxic anyway so is toxic diesel exhaust a problem?

depends on the exact hydraulic oil.

just like engine oil theres more than one type, some of the additive packages are where the problems lie, not so much the base oil itself.

remember how super petrol is bad but ULP is ok?

same deal.

[Kev the Fridgy]

Just a thought, has anyone done an accurate calculation or have any figures on the cost savings? If that's the main objective. My line of thought is that the diesel in the tank is supplemented with a percentage of WVO or some other waste oil Yes? So then an additional filtration system is purchased or manufactured for use at home, Then the WVO or similar is procured processed, filtered and stored for use.


Is the savings worth all the effort and additional costs recouped in a timely manner?


Not being critical here so please educate the fridgy if I am missing something, if it is done for the reason of "because we can" then yes I am all for that but just seems to me that maybe a lot of additional costs/effort for a small savings.


Again, am I missing something?

[RANDLOVER]

How about "saving" the environment as a factor to add into any calculations ? Some would say it is just a "feel good" factor, but nevertheless it is a big part of why some people, myself included, use bio-diesel.

[Tim Jones]

How about this I was reading in an old farming book how to clean sump oil.....dip a (I`m assuming by the books age) non synthetic rope in a high can and allow it to wick to a low can using the rope as a filter......Sounds too good to be true. My upflow filtration of WVO doesn`t work for sump oil (its still black after a year in a black can in the sun but admittedly a bit lumpier at the bottom) but how about a jackmaster dunny roll filter, they claim 0.5 micron filtration. You need a pump though