Holdens and Standard Series 3 gear boxes

[Lionelgee]

Hello Holden Powered Series people,

I was having a bit of a look at a couple of different online sales sites and I noticed a number of Series 3 Land Rovers which had Holden motors fitted and one seller had the description of their two vehicles - (1) Holden Motor - failed gear box; (2) Holden motor - failed gear box. This is not the first time I have heard about the association between Holden motors and failed gear boxes.

What I am wondering is what happens to the gear box - what part of it fails? Is it a catastrophic failure or is it a couple of clusters and shafts that need to be replaced along with some bearings?

Or are the failures that bad they are only good for the scrap metal recycler?

What are some of the signs that all is not well with the gearbox before things go too far and cannot be repaired.

Is it a case of any gear box would have done the same because the driver's had lead feet; or are Series 3 gear boxes not as robust as the Series 2A's used to be? The Series 3 are all synchromesh - were the 2A were a crash box first gear like the Holden EH box - three on the tree.:p

I have read the messages at the start of the Holden Powered thread about alignment issues - "Before you fit a Holden motor Read This!" It did not explain symptoms from the gearbox and what goes wrong because of it. Is alignment the main issue of gear box failure, apart from lead feet or are these two just some of many reasons why the Series 3 gearbox and a Holden motor may have issues with each other?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Jeff]

I had an early 2A gearbox in my first 2A, oddly not the original, break a layshaft. I replaced it with a late 2A box which had been freshly rebuilt and had no other problems. I was told then that it was the weak point. The engine was a healthy 202 and I was 18 at the time, so not too easy on the equipment, but not abusive. I later fitted 35 inch tyres and did a lot of hard offroading without drama. I have heard early Series 3 boxes are not as strong, but the late ones with the external web on the case are stronger.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Homestar]

Series gearboxes aren't the strongest and can be over powered by a Holden motor if thrashed. I killed a gearbox many eons ago with a misalignment issue. Symptoms were periodic vibration, jumping out of gear, closely followed by a walk home to get the Kingswood and a car trailer. I suppose it happened over about 2 or 3 months of weekend driving before it crapped itself.

Personally I don't mind the Holden conversions, but they are better when performed on factory 6 cylinder vehicles, because that engine was a lemon. The 4 cylinder petrol is a good motor, and if I was doing things again, I'd rebuild one of those before swapping it with a Red.

[Lionelgee]

Series gearboxes aren't the strongest and can be over powered by a Holden motor if thrashed. I killed a gearbox many eons ago with a misalignment issue. Symptoms were periodic vibration, jumping out of gear, closely followed by a walk home to get the Kingswood and a car trailer. I suppose it happened over about 2 or 3 months of weekend driving before it crapped itself.

Personally I don't mind the Holden conversions, but they are better when performed on factory 6 cylinder vehicles, because that engine was a lemon. The 4 cylinder petrol is a good motor, and if I was doing things again, I'd rebuild one of those before swapping it with a Red.

G'day Bacicat,

Thanks for the reply.

Bugger - the previous owner did mention it had started to jump out of top gear and he did not know why. The conversion was carried out by person's unknown and date similarly unknown. It definitely was not a professional job. The accelerator linkages testify to that - angle iron bolted on to the engine bay sides and then fencing tie wire to hold the return springs to the angle iron and back to the accelerator mechanism on the fire wall. I have not looked under Rebus to see what the engine mounting set up is yet - nice kit alloy or back yard special. I do have a spare manufactured set-up with cast alloy engine mounts. I like Holden's too and have had them for decades as my daily driver.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Landy Smurf]

Series 3 gearboxes were not that strong and I have seen a few with broken mainshafts, I have seen this in late 2a's as well.
The holden engine is quite a lot more powerful and higher revving then the land rover 2.25L

[JDNSW]

The problem with the Holden conversions is not usually the fault of the engine per se. The problem with gearboxes arises from the fact that not all the bell housing adapters are made with sufficient accuracy. This results in misalignment that gives excessive side load on the input bearing, and all sorts of problems ultimately arising from the misalignment of working parts of the gearbox due to this, especially as the input bearing starts to fail.

While Holden engines are significantly more powerful than Rover engines, the fact that they have six cylinders and torque at higher rpm does reduce the load on the box - what usually does the damage is the torque peaks from each cylinder firing, especially at low rpm and wide throttle. And the Holden engines in general do not rev higher than the Rover engines. Most Holden engines (of the vintage in question) are less than happy above about 3,600rpm, whereas even the Rover 2.25 diesel is happy at 4,000rpm.

John

[Lionelgee]

Most Holden engines (of the vintage in question) are less than happy above about 3,600rpm, whereas even the Rover 2.25 diesel is happy at 4,000rpm.

John[/QUOTE]

Hello John,

Funny you should mention about a Rover 2.25 diesel! I had originally planned to get the diesel ute - Baldrick on the road first and follow this with my Holden powered ute Rebus. This was until I cleaned the inside of Baldrick's cab and what I thought was a big smear of grease turned out to be a large patch of rust in the firewall near the accelerator linkage. I then found more rust in the passenger side foot well. This put Baldrick behind in the race to registration.

With the symptom of the gear box jumping out of gear being linked to other issues in Rebus maybe stock standard Baldrick could have its nose out in the lead again after some patching and welding. Well the next couple of months will be telling. Who will cross the motor registry line first and get full rego as opposed to just club rego only :cool:.

As long as one of them crosses the line and I can legally drive one on the roads I will be happy.

In the photograph Rebus has the canopy on the back with the bull bar. While Baldrick is the one showing signs of some rust treatment and a temporary yellow paint job around the radiator support as opposed to its original very faded and patchy Camino Gold - Baldrick is also minus the grille.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I will post up the correct photograph - the mistaken one was twilight over FFRs and a ring in. I will try again for the real Rebus and Baldrick photograph.

No I really do not have a problem with Series III Land Rovers. What is that big river in Egypt called again?

The twilight Land Rovers in the paddock will make one very decent FFR as a long term project.

The two civilian utes Rebus and Baldrick will be on the road first. Close to being registered means being in the house block fenced off from the paddock. While long term projects and parts vehicles are stored out in the wilds. Further away from the house block. See there is method in my madness ba haa hawwww :twisted:

Kind Regards
Lionel

[mick88]

My daily driver of thirteen years is a series three and has a Holden 186 fitted in it! About twelve years ago I removed the gearbox that was in it and fitted the present one as a temporary measure whilst I did an overhaul on the other, as it had been behind the Holden donk for several years before I got the vehicle and the previous owner enjoyed a bit of ratbagging and skylarking in the bush. So although the original box wasn't playing up I just wanted to go through it and make sure it was in good condition and reliable. The "temporary" box I replaced it with had been used in a vehicle for launching boats and was full of rust stained milky oil and overall, not in a very healthy state. I gave it a couple of runs around the block filled with diesel to flush it out and then refilled it with new oil.
Well....twelve years later it is still in the vehicle and performing rather well. It has travelled between 5-8 thousand kays per year since I fitted it, so it's done between 60 and 90 thousand kays in that time. No doubt I could totally murder it in five minutes if I wanted too, but I treat it with respect and it serves me well. Only yesterday I travelled 250 kays through the middle of the Sunset Country and just ticked over the sandy ridges in mostly 4th gear, getting down as low as 30 kph at times without any issues.
One of the main issues I see with Holden motors versus series gearbox's is the sudden acceleration that can occur, so many years back I modified the throttle linkages to try and make acceleration as gentle as I could get it to be! Like many vehicles, how well they serve you depends on how you treat them.
Hopefully soon I will get around to fitting that original gear box back in!

Cheers, Mick.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Some of this has been covered above but simply: The SIII gearbox is weaker than the SIIa box in 1st and 2nd because the width of the mainshaft gears were reduced to incorporate the synchro cones.
The early SIII boxes also had a weakness over the reverse gear idler shaft, this was fixed in later boxes with a cross hatch in the casting over the shaft. The SIII layshaft is actually stronger than the SII and SIIa boxes.
A significant problem of Holden conversions is the adapter, Dellow adapters were often found to be out of alignment in 3 planes although the ease of fitting of Dellow adapters, which came as a complete kit with engine mounts was easier than other kits. Johnson adapters from Geelong were good, as were the Roy Sim adapters from Sydney. All adapters should be checked for alignment with a dial guage the first time you part the engine and gearbox. (There are instructions how to do it in the AULRO Holden Powered Land Rover section http://www.aulro.com...check aligment first.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/133415-before-fitting-holden-engine-check-aligment-first.html) ).
Another reason for gearbox failures in Holden conversions, is the lack of low down torque. Driving techniques off-road with Holdens frequently requires you tackle an obstacle with higher revs sometimes with resulting damage to the gearbox. Conversions with heavy flywheels, particularly ones that used the Land Rover were better with low rev work.
Of the SIIa gearboxes the Suffix D and later boxes solved the layshaft weakness with a shoulder on 2nd instead of a circlip and boxes after suffix B had the larger layshaft bearings. You can fit a suffix D layshaft to a suffix B box.
Holden engines, need a number of modifications to perform well in a Land Rover, these include a manual camshaft (or aftermarket cam), carburettor from a manual vehicle, lower carb float level, center bulge sump with matched oil pickup and ideally additional oil volume with an external cooler.Diana