Why are they selling the army fleet?

[Summiitt]

Given the amount of debt Australia is in, can someone tell me why the army fleet is being upgraded? Is it something to do with a 30 yr contract ending?
Im just waiting for the right mack 6x6 to purchase and after viewing vehicles in both Sydney and Brisbane I can't help but thinking that a lot of these vehicles don't need upgrading. Brilliant service history, low km and the macks that I'm looking at are in great condition..same said for a lot of the unimogs and land rovers..if it's a service or operational issue from soldiers, fair enough, but when you consider the parts stock, tyres, trailers and other items that will need upgrading it seems like a bit of wasted money..?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Because they are almost 30 years old and past the end of the parts supply contract. The cost of getting out of the G-Wagon contract would be worth more than they'll get for the whole perentie fleet.

You obviously didn't look at the non-operational Macks which have often been used to donor parts for the operational ones.

Diana

[Mick_Marsh]

They are old. The equipment needs upgrading for what we expect our troops to do.
I'm sure there are any black powder rifles in excellent condition out there that are cheaper than the F88 Austeyr assault rifle but hardly as good for a soldier.
To tell you the truth, I'm embarrassed we send our troops out in soft top Landrovers. I think ASLAVs, Bushmasters and Hawkeis are much better vehicles for our troop in todays warfare.

[Disco Muppet]

To tell you the truth, I'm embarrassed we send our troops out in soft top Landrovers. I think ASLAVs, Bushmasters and Hawkeis are much better vehicles for our troop in todays warfare.

Except we don't?
With the exception of the 6X6 the perenties wouldn't have seen active combat would they?
Then when IEDs started becoming a real headache, the SASR traded the 6B perenties for Bushmasters.

[Mick_Marsh]

Except we don't?
With the exception of the 6X6 the perenties wouldn't have seen active combat would they?
Then when IEDs started becoming a real headache, the SASR traded the 6B perenties for Bushmasters.
And that is why they're selling the Perentie fleet.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

At least Australia is returning its vehicles back to Australia. The US is over 3 trillion dollars in debt and they are cutting up several billion dollars worth of vehicles and shipping it out of the sand pit as metal scrap.

[JamesB71]

America has a domestic vehicle manufacturing industry to consider.

[Davehoos]

the fleet is being updated for economic stimulation.
that was in the press release.

given low interest rates its the best time to invest in the next 30 years.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

America has a domestic vehicle manufacturing industry to consider.Are you suggesting that Thales and others don't make armoured military vehicles in Australia?

It likely also has to do with the risks of bringing back thousands of vehicles through Afghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan. The question might be: Is it worth losing more young men and women bringing home second hand equipment?

[Summiitt]

I can understand and fully support frontline upgrades...i can't see the value in local base, day to day replacement units.... How many Mack trucks have seen active service in the last ten yes..?

[DasLandRoverMan]

I understood the British forces view was that the cost of shipping them back from countries such as Afghan was prohibitive, mainly because its land locked and moving them overland to a port to bring em back totals a good percentage of the replacement cost.

The Wolf fleet over here is approaching 20 years old, whilst the earlier stuff (2.5 diesel 90's and 110's etc) is being sold off in earnest whilst the Wolfs are creeping onto the market, they're supposed to be in use for another ten years to boot.

Slightly unrelated but a good illustration of outdated equipment; The Snatch armoured Defenders have caught a lot of flack due to the number of guys killed in them.
The one thing the news agencies kept missing out on was the fact that the original ones were designed to operate on the streets of Northern Ireland and be effective against small arms and whatever improvised explosives they used at the time.

Personal opinion on that one was that they stood up pretty well to the conditions in the deserts, especially as they were up against totally different threats.
Military equipment in the modern world needs to move quickly to keep up, just look at radio equipment...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I can understand and fully support frontline upgrades...i can't see the value in local base, day to day replacement units.... How many Mack trucks have seen active service in the last ten yes..?The reality is that since Vietnam very few of our military vehicles have actually seen active service, the SIII model only went to a couple of UN white missions and things like the leopard and abrams tanks none have seen active service.

The R series Macks currently being sold are mostly already 30 years old and the model out of production for the last 8 years, very few commercial operators operate equipment that old. Parts go out of production and become unavailable.

In regards to bringing out the vehicles from Afghanistan. ISAF has an agreement with the Afghan Government that none of the vehicles will be left littering the countryside like the Soviets did when they left. It seems that the US is bringing them out as metal scrap reducing the volume needing to be transported.

[Bigbjorn]

.

The R series Macks currently being sold are mostly already 30 years old and the model out of production for the last 8 years, very few commercial operators operate equipment that old. Parts go out of production and become unavailable.


Well said, Diana. When I was marketing heavy duty line haul and road train prime movers, most new truck buyers bought on 3-4 year lease. They usually had 500,000+ kilos on them at trade-in time. New truck dealers would spruce up one owner trucks and peddle them through their own yards as "one owner, good condition" to the next level of operator. Two, three and four owner vehicles commonly went to auction and then to the rougher class of operator progressively, the "bent axle Bobs" of the industry. We, the peddlers of new machines, thought 5 year vehicles were old heaps of ****. Something 30 years old would be the subject of cruel jokes. "Old so and so is still running those old piles of pus." "God, how does he keep them running". Some makes do not provide parts past 9-15 years. "Obsolete, mate, can't help you, Know any wreckers."

[isuzurover]

Given the amount of debt Australia is in,...

I think you have been listening to propaganda.
Australian debt is among the lowest in the world
File:Dette publique2011.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dette_publique2011.jpg)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1178.jpg

[Summiitt]

I think you have been listening to propaganda.
Australian debt is among the lowest in the world
File:Dette publique2011.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dette_publique2011.jpg)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1178.jpg

Cute graph, as a business owner and an employer to people, I won't comment and don't want to make this a political post.
I've got no real issues with the auction process as I will benefit from this auction if I can get myself a couple of macks for the right price... They are a lot of truck for the money, but you need a use gor them..as I do.

[101RRS]

I can understand and fully support frontline upgrades...i can't see the value in local base, day to day replacement units.... How many Mack trucks have seen active service in the last ten yes..?

You turn over your vehicles on a regular basis, based on your business considerations. I am sure they are not wrecks and are most likely good for someone else.

The Army is no different.

Garry

[Bigbjorn]

Those Macks were obsolete when they were bought. Very old hat thirty years down the track.

[isuzurover]

...

[isuzurover]

Cute graph,....

I am not sure what is "cute" about it, and it is certainly not a graph.


graph
/graf/
Noun

A diagram showing the relation between typically two variable quantities, each measured along one of a pair of axes at right angles.

Feel free to post any evidence you have if you can show it is incorrect.

I'm not sure how owning a business or employing people is relevant to the current discussion. I employ people too - not that it is relevant.

[Pickles2]

I would suggest that the reason the Land Rovers are being sold, is that they are now "old", and the reason (sadly) why they are not being replaced with Land Rovers, is because there are more suitable vehicles available.
Cheers, Pickles.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Pickles

While the first part of your post is correct, Land Rover is being replaced by Mercedes G Wagen because Ford PAG did not submit the Defender to the tender. DMO can not choose or even consider a vehicle that is not submitted by the manufacturer. That is not to say that Defender would have been successful over the G Wagon during a competitive tender selection process.

Pedro: I think you'll find that is an GPS antenna mount, see the sharks fin antenna at each end. The Aussie Mack R series have had their Hendrickson rear suspension replaced by airbags, at least on the un-armoured version.

Diana

[Pickles2]

Pickles

While the first part of your post is correct, Land Rover is being replaced by Mercedes G Wagen because Ford PAG did not submit the Defender to the tender. DMO can not choose or even consider a vehicle that is not submitted by the manufacturer. That is not to say that Defender would have been successful over the G Wagon during a competitive tender selection process.

Diana
No worries, I agree...and looking at your posts.....you would have FAR FAR more knowledge than I do....FOR SURE.
But, I think the reason that a tender was not submitted, was because they would have known that the current Defender would not have been competitive with other offerings.
Like I said, I'm VERY new here, but I've been trying to learn as much as I can, & in the past I think the British "War Dept" as they used to call it, now the Ministry Of Defence, has been LR's biggest customer, & the Australian Army has also bought very large numbers.
But, in the old days, if L.R. received a request with specifications for a vehicle which they didn't have, they would simply design one.....but not any more...I don't believe L.R. has the capacity to do this any more.
Like I said, I'm new.....so, what do you think?
Cheers, Pickles.

[juddy]

The new Defender Military spec is actually a very good vehicle, and as it costs far less than a G-Wagon, we may see more around, would not surprise me if the ADF, don't get a small batch at some point....

[Disco Muppet]

The new Defender Military spec is actually a very good vehicle, and as it costs far less than a G-Wagon, we may see more around, would not surprise me if the ADF, don't get a small batch at some point....

I've heard from someone who worked on Project Bushmaster that the ADF was looking at plain green Defenders for the reserve units.


That is not to say that Defender would have been successful over the G Wagon during a competitive tender selection process.


When you consider all the fruit the G wagon comes with, I'd be surprised if they picked a Defender over it.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The new Defender Military spec is actually a very good vehicle, and as it costs far less than a G-Wagon, we may see more around, would not surprise me if the ADF, don't get a small batch at some point....

Thats an interesting post,,:huh:

any pics of the current military spec LR?

[Disco Muppet]

Thats an interesting post,,:huh:

any pics of the current military spec LR?

Defender2 - View topic - Puma goes to war............. (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic1704.html)

[S12A]

The reality is that since Vietnam very few of our military vehicles have actually seen active service, the SIII model only went to a couple of UN white missions and things like the leopard and abrams tanks none have seen active service.

The R series Macks currently being sold are mostly already 30 years old and the model out of production for the last 8 years, very few commercial operators operate equipment that old. Parts go out of production and become unavailable.


you might be suprised what gets outside the wire;
(i took the 2nd and 3rd pic in Zabol province first in Uruzgan near a place called Khorma)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1061.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1062.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/1063.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

is that a spare leaf spring on the roof?
love the nsw number plate:p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

you might be suprised what gets outside the wire;
(i took the 2nd and 3rd pic in Zabol province first in Uruzgan near a place called Khorma)
<Images removed>Not disputing tens maybe hundreds of vehicles have been to conflict zones. The truth remains, that the vast majority of the thousands of vehicles in the Army's fleet have seen nothing more dangerous than one of the Kangaroo or Talisman-Sabre multi-national exercises.

I doubt we'll see many of the armoured cab R-Series Macks coming through the AFM auctions, at least in the short term.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

No worries, I agree...and looking at your posts.....you would have FAR FAR more knowledge than I do....FOR SURE.
But, I think the reason that a tender was not submitted, was because ... Ford PAG had two problems with the Defender, firstly it didn't match the market Ford wanted for it's Land Rover division which was the premium/luxury end of the 4WD market. Secondly given that military contracts usually have a 20 to 30 year lifespan, Ford didn't want to hobble itself with a supply contract if they couldn't find a buyer for the Land Rover division which they were trying to off load.
But, in the old days, if L.R. received a request with specifications for a vehicle which they didn't have, they would simply design one.....but not any more...I don't believe L.R. has the capacity to do this any more.The perentie 6X6 was the last major special specification vehicle developed for the Australian Army in the 1980s-1990s. However since the closure of Jaguar Rover Australia plant in the 1990s, there is no in-house capability to develop new specifications in Australia.

JLR retains the ability to produce special production in the UK through its Land Rover Special Vehicles division, however a lot of those models are out sourced to after-market sub contractors, such as the Wolf.

... they would have known that the current Defender would not have been competitive with other offerings.If LRA wanted to design a specific model to compete with the other compeditors, e.g. Mercedes, there were a nuber of options to fulfill those additional specifications, diff-locks (axle locks) were available from Maxi-Drive or Detroit, airconditioning is available in the Puma and if they wanted, they could continue with an alternative to the Ford Puma diesel, like the later model Isuzu diesels. Tennix/BAE Systems in Bandiana had a rebuild line for Perentie overhaul, there is no reason why they couldn't have sub-contracted BAE or Thales etc to build a competitive Land Rover, however in addition to the above, the original DMO/Army specification was for a single supplier of light, medium and heavy GS vehicles. At that time only Mercedes Benz were able to fullfil that requirement.

Like I said, I'm VERY new here, but I've been trying to learn as much as I can, & in the past I think the British "War Dept" as they used to call it, now the Ministry Of Defence, has been LR's biggest customer, & the Australian Army has also bought very large numbers.Actually in the early days, Australia's Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme had the single largest fleet of Land Rovers anywhere in the world.

Like I said, I'm new.....so, what do you think?
Cheers, Pickles.Nothing wrong with being new.

Diana

[disco 3 door]

Pickles

While the first part of your post is correct, Land Rover is being replaced by Mercedes G Wagen because Ford PAG did not submit the Defender to the tender. DMO can not choose or even consider a vehicle that is not submitted by the manufacturer. That is not to say that Defender would have been successful over the G Wagon during a competitive tender selection process.

Pedro: I think you'll find that is an GPS antenna mount, see the sharks fin antenna at each end. The Aussie Mack R series have had their Hendrickson rear suspension replaced by airbags, at least on the un-armoured version.

Diana
The R Model Macks never came with Hendrickson suspension.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The R Model Macks never came with Hendrickson suspension.But the original Army R-Series came with non airbag suspension which was deemed detrimental to the troops in the back so were quickly retrofitted with airbags.

At the same time as the troops were removed from the back of trucks and put into buses.

[Bigbjorn]

The R Model Macks never came with Hendrickson suspension.

Available as factory option along with many other types of tandem suspension.

Mack in Australia had a marketing programme of "all Mack powertrain" whereas the parent company in the US are custom builders and for decades have offered many options of engine transmission, diffs, suspension.

[303gunner]

Those Macks were obsolete when they were bought. Very old hat thirty years down the track.

Aren't they referred to as the "Flintstone Cab" Mack?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yup first introduced in the early 1960s although the Army 6x6 had a different bonnet arrangement to the 6X4 civilian trucks.

[Pickles2]

Aren't they referred to as the "Flintstone Cab" Mack?
Surely, they at least be "R" Models?
Cheers, Pickles.

[Summiitt]

Yep, R600 is the model.

[disco 3 door]

The Macks of that era did not come with optional Hendrickson or airbags. With this model you got Mak engine, Mack gearbox, Mack diffs & Mack Camel back rear suspension. For the R model there were no other options. Actually back in 1983 airbags were very rare on any vehicle.

[Bigbjorn]

The Macks of that era did not come with optional Hendrickson or airbags. With this model you got Mak engine, Mack gearbox, Mack diffs & Mack Camel back rear suspension. For the R model there were no other options. Actually back in 1983 airbags were very rare on any vehicle.

As I said in my earlier post, Mack Australia had a marketing policy of "all Mack". Of course this depended on how badly they needed your business. Witness the Cummins engines for Wettenhalls and Fuller gearboxes in many others. Air bag suspensions have been around for decades. Motor Truck Engineering by James Fitch, 1969, has them mentioned. The setup on a Peterbilt looks just like those used today. Just that they did not come into common use until legislation gave favour to the so-called "road friendly suspensions".

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Macks of that era did not come with optional Hendrickson or airbags. With this model you got Mak engine, Mack gearbox, Mack diffs & Mack Camel back rear suspension. For the R model there were no other options. Actually back in 1983 airbags were very rare on any vehicle.So what you're telling us is that the Army R series 6X6 selling through AFM do not have airbags.

Quick someone ring up the Office of Fair Traing we're being lied to.

Description

6x6 Flat Top Truck - Mack R6X6 NIL with Crane 02/1985

Body Type: approx 6m (l) x 2.4m (w)
VIN: A18394
Engine: Mack EM6-285 diesel
Transmission: Mack Maxitorque manual
Odometer reads: 126,428kms - (Note: May not be indicative of actual kilometers travelled. Potential purchasers should refer to any record of service/ log books)
Hourmeter: 5,394 hours - (Note: May not be indicative of usage hours. Potential purchasers should refer to any record of service/ log books)
Features: Keyless ignition, air conditioned cab, service record book, sun visor, 10 stud rims, container pins, 12.00 R20 tyres, spare wheel, rear pintle hitch, chassis mounted storage boxes, under deck storage boxes, jerry can holder, drab olive canvas cover
Exterior: Camouflage
Suspension: Air bag (rear)
GVM: 24,340kg
Note: Marks, dents and scratches commensurate with age and use
Vendor Number: 54215-6
ARN # 36559 (54215-6)

[disco 3 door]

Nwhat I am saying is Mack didnot have a Factory option of Airbags. These were an aftermarket retro fit. How doI know, I did alot of the warranty work when the ADF took delivery of all the mentioned vehichles.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So all this kerfuffle over my bad when I said "Hendrickson" instead of "camel back" rear suspension. The point was the thing on the roof wasn't a spare spring pack and the rears had air bags.

Geez we go off at tangents sometimes don't we? :o

All is good in the end though, because I now know that the standard Oz spec Macks had camel backs and sometimes they had other camels stenciled on the doors! :)

Now for another tangent, did they look like they were dragging their bums when they had the original suspension or only after the retrofit with the air bag suspension?

[THE BOOGER]

I thought they always looked abit down in the dumps, they didn't seem to change much with no load or full load:)

[Cracka]

is that a spare leaf spring on the roof?
love the nsw number plate:p

I'm pretty sure it's ADF not NSW. I don't think you will find a 'State' registered Defence vehicle.

[Disco Muppet]

I'm pretty sure it's ADF not NSW. I don't think you will find a 'State' registered Defence vehicle.

Except the ADF number plates are very obviously green and off-white, that's most definitely black and white.
Pic is too small but it also looks to have NSW on it.
Add to that, the ADF plates were never in that style ;)

[Mick_Marsh]

Except the ADF number plates are very obviously green and off-white, that's most definitely black and white.
Pic is too small but it also looks to have NSW on it.
Add to that, the ADF plates were never in that style ;)
Definitely ADF. DM, you need glasses.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The NSW RMS were doing reprints of the ADF plates for the in-service Army vehicles. At least they were doing it for the SME vehicles, but wouldn't do the museum vehicles because they weren't registered.

Perhaps this is one of those??

[Disco Muppet]

Definitely ADF. DM, you need glasses.

More like super vision, even enhanced and magnified I can't tell what is written on it.
But I'd put money on the fact that it's not the ADF plate colours.
Perhaps it's one of the ones Diana mentioned.