Euthanasia an option for me

[Chucaro]

I know that is a topic were the do-gooders have expressed very strongly their opinion but IMO the right to not loose our dignity and in many cases pain is above religion beliefs or country laws.
For those among us that have discarded the option perhaps watching the
Lateline's Crisis in Aged Care investigation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-13/aged-care-understaffed-as-nursing-home-patient-numbers-rise/4884056) will help them to re-access their views.
I know that for many this is nothing new and we try to put the issue in one side of our priority list but whatching the video I just wonder if there are not serious cases of manslaughter by the management of the institution and by those that to protect their job keep doing this "torture" to old people :mad:
My wife and sons have instructions about my wishes if my health come to a situation were I need health care and I would be unable to defend myself and one of them is not to depend on them and not to finish on this human torture institutions.

Quote from the link:
Many staff also complain that doctors can be hard to find, with Ms Dickens remembering how one woman was left to die convulsing and asphyxiating on her own vomit for hours.

"It's quite traumatic, somebody choking on their own vomit, unable to take a breath," Ms Dickens said.

Ms Dickens intervened, trying to contact the woman's doctor, who did not respond. She tried the locum, who refused to come, and later the hospital, which refused admittance.

She finally called an ambulance, which meant the dying woman received some oxygen, which the nursing home had run out of.

[Eevo]

im all in favor of euthanasia

[DiscoMick]

My father had emphysthema and lung cancer and was in a nursing home on oxygen.
The first time he collapsed all stops were pulled out, he was flown to Sydney by air ambulance and spent a month in hospital, before coming back.
He and I had a chat one day. "Next time, don't bother," he said.
So we got his doctor in and planned a response program of painkillers and other non-invasive treatment, while he would stay in the nursing home. If he recovered, great - if he didn't, at least he went without pain. Everyone was happy.
And that's what happened a few months later.
I'm a Christian, but its not an issue for me. There's a big difference between active euthenasia - doing things to take a life - and passive euthenasia - not taking extreme actions which are unlikely to succeed or improve the patient's quality of life.
So, I recommend you have a long talk with your doctor and those close to you and make a plan of appropriate responses to various likely scenarios. It makes it easier for all concerned.
Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree...

[incisor]

im all in favor of euthanasia

including your good self or just others?

[olbod]

im all in favor of euthanasia


Me too, including self administered when a condition becomes extreme and terminal and a person is unable to care for themselves and the quality of life is pain and suffering.
Take me for example, I am a solitary and independant person. I could not stand to be locked up in a care facility.
My wife and kids have passed away and the last of my friends died in 2011.
I live alone now and dont socialise and never get bored or lonely. I enjoy my days despite niggling health problems but if that were to change and I couldn't look after myself I would druther clean out my desk and move on.
I am of the firm belief that when my time comes I shall be reunited with my loved ones. At the end of the day that is something to look forward to and a better option rather than a time of suffering and mental anguish.
As mentioned before I have signed an Advace Health Directive, not to be treated but made comfortable.
I sometimes think that to finally come to rest on the surface out in the desert ( which I love ) in the company of Gibson, Ludwig and all of those other boys would be a fitting farewell. To be absorbed by Nature and its creatures in a never ending cycle appeals to me. I have always had a passion to visit and discover lonely bush gravesites. I always spend some time having a conversation with them. I would not like to be buried tho, just left as I lay.
But do I want the here and now to end ?
No way.

I came across this site below, years ago on the edge of the desert. no idea who but I shared a billy of tea and cleared up around and about.

[olbod]

PS: to the above.
Some of you may recall that 3 year ago my wife and I made a decision regarding her options following a long illness and at the end, 2 months in hospital where she was unable to do anything for herself. I had already been her carer for more than 10 years. No regrets I would do it all again.
I passed on her wish that she be taken off all medication and be given large morphine injection.
She died 2 days later peacefully.
I know what it takes to decide these things and it is not easy.
She is at peace without pain but not alone, I talk to her everyday. The last thing she said was I'll see you later. I look forward to it.
I hope to have the option of making a decision for myself when the time comes.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Euthinasia, nah most of them are at the Uni of NSW.

Do we all remember the movie "Logan's Run", where euthanasia has become mandatory. The slippery slope slarts coming when one's choice starts to become pressure from family and then state not to bear the costs and burdens of the aged.

Nothing to do with religion.

[Davo]

I'm sure that one of my cars will find a way to kill me - I think they've been trying for years - but failing that, I'd like to have some sort of a plan should need be. A doctor friend reckons that by far most people die in their sleep, but it's still a bit of a lottery and I'll bet that having a plan in place will become more and more common.

[Mick_Marsh]

A friend if the family is suffering dementia. Her daughter is living with her and looking after her.
In some cultures, the elderly are looked after by their children. Why do we bundle them off into nursing homes? I can understand why if they become too difficult to manage.
My grandfather died in his bed peacefully at night. He was 92. When my grandmother died my auntie and her husband moved in to look after my grandfather for his remaining years.
Nursing homes should be a last resort.

[goingbush]

i have worked in enough nursing homes and dimentia wards to know that if I have any part in the decision I will be voluntarily euthanaising myself before it gets to that point.

As a recipient of a donor organ, of course I am on the organ donor registry, the only conflict I have is if I let a crocodile take me, (prior to dementia) there will not be much left in the way of good organs.

Some may say I'm already demented.

yes, I vote for euthanasia, someone please remind me which party has written that into their policy again and I'll vote for them !!

what about Soylent Green ???

[Eevo]

including your good self or just others?

including myself if i have a good medical reason.

ive already told my mum that if im a vegetable to pull the plug. she says she wont do it.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Both my parents recently went into a nursing home. My 87 YO fath suffered spinal injuries at 84 and was confined to an electric wheel chair. My 82 YO mother is suffering some level of Altzeimers, is rather frail and even with 14 hours/week of in home support was unable to properly care for dad, particularly when he fell out of the chair. Mum's licence has been revoked because of the Az and we live out of town with no public transport. My folks are asset rich cash poor but unable to divide off land from their property because of zoning laws and they are not entitled to a pension even though they both worked full time (and paid tax) into their late 70s.

The option for me and the family were bleak, I could resign my employment move onto the farm and attempt to survive on a carer's pension until we had to sell the farm and home out from under ourselves.

Now they are in the nursing home it costs us $60,000 per year for their care and its nothing special.

It is the worst of all choices, but I could still not consider euthanasia.

Diana

[Eevo]

but I could still not consider euthanasia.

i dont think you should be considering euthanasia for someone else. only yourself.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

but I could still not consider euthanasia.

i dont think you should be considering euthanasia for someone else. only yourself.The problem is that it's the slippery slope as I mentioned earlier.

Some people will be coerced into euthanasia and others, possibly well meaning, will comply.

[jon3950]

I agree with Euthanasia in principle, but what worries me is how difficult it would be to frame the legislation, how it would work in practice and what loopholes may be found.

Where I think more practical gains can be made, without resorting to legislation, is in the field of palliative care. I understand that it cannot resolve everyone's situation, but to me this is far more important.

Cheers,
Jon

[101RRS]

As a basic idea I have no problems with euthanasia except that many older people do not want to be a burden on their families and will take that option even if they do not - likewise many will succumb from family pressure to end it.

For sure many older people are strong enough to withstand these sort of pressures but many are not.

Garry

[Eevo]

life without living, is no life at all.

[Mick_Marsh]

Soylent Green
Was going to mention that movie.
Also, I should mention "The Mission".
Why?
In The Mission, the indigenous people euthanised the third child as they believed their environment could not support a growth in population.
In Logan's Run, the inhabitants of the domes were euthanised in Carrousel at 30 (in the book it's 21) as their environment was finite.
In Soylent Green, euthanasia was encouraged as the world was extremely over populated.
All reasons that do not come into play here. Here (from the ABC programme), are we not discussing "end of life care"?
With the "Baby Boomers" now getting into the age they require end of life care, the Aged Care system is going to come under great pressure. We should be aiming to get it sorted sooner rather than later.

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ..
With the "Baby Boomers" now getting into the age they require end of life care, the Aged Care system is going to come under great pressure. We should be aiming to get it sorted sooner rather than later.

The problem is that if the politicians as the population to choose were to allocate funds:
a) age care
or
b) Olympic games, AIS, or any other activity for the elite few.

You can bet that people will would choose b and if the politicians do not put the question to the people and go for a it will be a political suicide.
That is reality, priorities and attitudes including "I am ok, bugger you Jack"

Dammed this turn into political issue :mad:

Lets go back to two choices
1)Loose your dignity and suffer pain in an age care institution.
or
2) Pull the pin and have few pills.

PS: I just wonder which kind of health get the old sick inmates in a hospital jail.............

[DiscoMick]

Aged care is actually a big sleeper issue at this election. The Labor Governmejnt has made some changes, which the Opposition says it supports, but they're still not really addressing the future growth of the problem.
One of the issues is the cost of housing, incidentally, which is far too high.

[newhue]

The problem is that it's the slippery slope as I mentioned earlier.

Some people will be coerced into euthanasia and others, possibly well meaning, will comply.

You'd imagine if it were to become acceptable, there would be some pretty clear perimeters. Intentions would have to be drafted well before any illness. Family sign off on intentions with appropriate milestones of failing health. All acknowledged by a Doctor or 3 and family members and or a third party like a lawyer.

Society seems to get very interested in physical pain and relieving it with drugs. But mental pain, which can't be measured largely goes un-talked about.

I think with a massively ageing population it's a matter of time before a political party puts it on the agenda. My folks already know of several people who have secured there own final solution tablet from the USA. Euthanasia is already happening in peoples homes, and has been in hospitals for years with morphine. So perhaps it's time we all get real about it and don't use any religion argument to blur the pain and reality of suffering.

[Mick_Marsh]

Lets go back to two choices
1)Loose your dignity and suffer pain in an age care institution.
or
2) Pull the pin and have few pills.
I would chose neither. There are other options.

[Chucaro]

One of the comments made in the ABC program was the ratio of nurses to beds, in one case 100 beds for one nurse and staff without formal education in age care.
I just wonder if it is compulsory to have a Certificate III in Aged Care as a minimum requirement to work in these institutions and the proficiency in English.


Mick, I would like to know about the other options without loosing dignity and suffer pain because negligence in providing care.

[olbod]

Its a tricky question with many pro's and cons and pitfalls.
I would only endorse and partake with me and mine alone.
But the old and infirm must be consulted about their wishes long before they become incapable of being consulted. Or everybody before accident or illness renders them incapable. For that reason I signed the Advance Health Directive. If people dont comply with my wishes I will come back and bite their ass hard.

Dont forget the series Cold Lazarus. That was a frightening scenario.
I watched it years ago and it left me with much to think about.
A few weeks ago I downloaded it for a keeper but havent watched it yet.

[Chucaro]

.............. For that reason I signed the Advance Health Directive. If people dont comply with my wishes I will come back and bite their ass hard.

.................................................. ....................

I read some were that the currently Australia, Mental Health Legislation can over-ride an Advance Directive.
Have you investigated about that?

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick, I would like to know about the other options without loosing dignity and suffer pain because negligence in providing care.
So you didn't read my other post.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/180051-euthanasia-option-me-2.html#post1968101
How would I like to die? Still plenty of time to think about that one.
Here's a suggestion
Monty Python's The Meaning of Life - Death - YouTube

[POD]

There are a few different issues being blurred here, particularly those of end-of-life care as opposed to actual euthanasia. We paramedics are frequently called to nursing homes to attend to the dying; it is a common occurrence to see an elderly person with advanced dementia, wearing a nappy, fed through a percutaneous endo-gastric tube, bed-bound for years and not having communicated with nor made any sign of recognising anyone in many months, who today has become unconscious with no blood pressure, and ambulance has been called 'lights and sirens' because the family has said they want 'everything to be done'. It seems that very few nursing-home managers have the gumption to sit down with a persons family and discuss with them the fact that, with dementia for instance, the same disease process that is causing them to not recognise their family, is also at work in the parts of the brain that keep them alive, and that they will sooner or later come to the end of their life. How many times have I had to have the difficult conversation with a distraught family member at the bedside of their dying loved one, all because the person who should have had the conversation with them months earlier did not have the guts.....
Interestingly, an 'Advanced Care Directive' (commonly called a 'do not resuscitate' order) can only be made with regard to an existing illness. This in effect means that, say, a person with metastasised cancer who has exhausted all treatment options and been declared terminal, can have paperwork drawn up to the effect that when the disease reaches the end-stage, no heroic efforts should be made to save their life, e.g. no ventilator, no CPR etc. However, if this person is hit by a bus after signing this directive (or even if they have taken an overdose of narcotic drugs, for example), the Advanced Care Directive does not apply to this condition and does not provide legal basis for witholding life-saving treatment. These are real issues that have real implications for those of us who work in emergency health care.

With euthanasia, on the other hand, I have to agree with the fact that pressure would inevitably be brought to bear on many elderly persons by family whose lives would be easier if they would just go quietly...
In India, there is a tradition called 'Suttee' wherin the widow of a deceased man is so overcome with grief that she throws herself on the funeral pyre alongside his body, rather than face life without him. A touching thought, except that there is considerable social pressure put on the widow to perform Suttee rather than be a burden on the village and family. It is not unknown for a widow who is not sufficiently overcome to get herself onto the pyre, to be assisted....
I reckon our society values the elderly about the same amount as Indian society values females.

[korg20000bc]

Mick, I would like to know about the other options without loosing dignity and suffer pain because negligence in providing care.

Having your nut bitten off by a Laplander:

The Naked Gun Leslie Nielsen & OJ Simpson HD - YouTube (http://youtu.be/n08mNz9f0FQ't=55s)

[korg20000bc]

In India, there is a tradition called 'Sutteee' wherin the widow of a deceased man is so overcome with grief that she throws herself on the funeral pyre alongside his body, rather than face life without him. A touching thought, except that there is considerable social pressure put on the widow to perform Suttee rather than be a burden on the village and family. It is not unknown for a widow who is not sufficiently overcome to get herself onto the pyre, to be assisted....
I reckon our society values the elderly about the same amount as Indian society values females.
General Charles Napier

“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”

[Chucaro]

So you didn't read my other post.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/180051-euthanasia-option-me-2.html#post1968101
How would I like to die? Still plenty of time to think about that one.


What would be the implications if you miss a step before making it to the cliff, died like a prune?

[Mick_Marsh]

What would be the implications if you miss a step before making it to the cliff, died like a prune?
It's all academic really. We'll all die when the asteroid hits. I hear Apophis will be getting quite close on 13th April 2029.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You'd imagine if it were to become acceptable, there would be some pretty clear perimeters. Intentions would have to be drafted well before any illness. Family sign off on intentions with appropriate milestones of failing health. All acknowledged by a Doctor or 3 and family members and or a third party like a lawyer.

Society seems to get very interested in physical pain and relieving it with drugs. But mental pain, which can't be measured largely goes un-talked about.

I think with a massively ageing population it's a matter of time before a political party puts it on the agenda. My folks already know of several people who have secured there own final solution tablet from the USA. Euthanasia is already happening in peoples homes, and has been in hospitals for years with morphine. So perhaps it's time we all get real about it and don't use any religion argument to blur the pain and reality of suffering.
The problem is that any process gets manipulated by those with self serving ends.

You forget, or maybe never knew, that I have worked in intensive care units and emergency departments for almost 30 years so have been exceptionally close to the practices you mention.

Sometimes, in retrospect, it should have been called murder and others the lack of it, bore a close resemblance to torture or cruel and unusual punishment. If you ask, yes I did withdraw my labour from those particular places.

Diana

[d2dave]

I am certainly in favor of euthanasia. If we treated animals the way we treat humans we would have the RSPCA on us like a ton of bricks.

I would love the option of being able to end it, if I became a burden, and had no quality of life. I am pretty sure I also speak for SWMBO, who would agree.

[Ranga]

the last of my friends died in 2011
I'd like to think you have plenty of friends in here. Maybe not as close as those who've died, but those who are happy to lend an ear or a hand if needed ;)

[olbod]

I'd like to think you have plenty of friends in here. Maybe not as close as those who've died, but those who are happy to lend an ear or a hand if needed ;)

I appreciate that, thanks.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I want to come back to a quote by Newhue
... Society seems to get very interested in physical pain and relieving it with drugs. But mental pain, which can't be measured largely goes un-talked about. ...

... So perhaps it's time we all get real about it and don't use any religion argument to blur the pain and reality of suffering.There have been a couple of times in my life where I was very depressed, times where the very act of continuing breathing seemed too much to bare. Not because of any physical disorder but because of the place I was in my head as a result of numerous friends dying and other events in my life. I would have been happy the ask for euthanasia although that very act of asking was too great an effort for me to be able to complete. Another time I sat on the outside railing of a 12 storey building wanting to step off into space. It was justified in my mind at the time as my mental suffering was too great.

If I had done that I would not have met any of you online or many of you in real life, the enjoyment and companionship those contacts created and that would have been more of a tragedy than the absence on me on this Earth.

So, no I don't agree with euthanasia in general but I do believe in being humane to people with real physical suffering.

R-U-O.K.?

Diana

[jon3950]

Very thought-provoking post Diana. Just shows how complex an issue this is.

Cheers,
Jon

[Chucaro]

I guess that the original topic was about two choices, going through the experience in many of the "care" institutions or euthanasia.
I come with this dramatic title to the thread to highlight what it is going trough in these institutions and assuming that the sick does not have any other choice.
It is easy for us to look for options but for a physical incapacitated old person without any family that love or care for what he is going through, the options are very limited.
As I said, if I have only the two options I go for euthanasia.
Do not believe that there are possibilities to correct the way that these institutions operate any time soon. By the time that the politicians do something hundreds of old or incapacitated people will died going trough a mental and physical torture.

[NavyDiver]

I guess that the original topic was about two choices, going through the experience in many of the "care" institutions or euthanasia.
I come with this dramatic title to the thread to highlight what it is going trough in these institutions and assuming that the sick does not have any other choice.
It is easy for us to look for options but for a physical incapacitated old person without any family that love or care for what he is going through, the options are very limited.
As I said, if I have only the two options I go for euthanasia.
Do not believe that there are possibilities to correct the way that these institutions operate any time soon. By the time that the politicians do something hundreds of old or incapacitated people will died going trough a mental and physical torture.

It is choices not rules I feel should be the goal. Rules and regulations are prescriptive and not really useful. Wasn't suicide illegal at one point. Nice idea but locking some one up after they died clearly is not an effective deterrent to the two groups of people who might like to end their lives. The RUOK - mental health/depression or people who are at the end of their lives who want some choice are in my opinion very different.

The first group needs medical and community support. The later group should be able to choose. I do not mean be told or pressured to remove any "inconvenience" being older might bring. Being prepared is different for many people. Who am I or who are you to tell some one that cannot or must spend the end of their days in a manner you or I prescribe?

Respect, dignity and Choice is my vote

[Mick_Marsh]

I guess that the original topic was about two choices, going through the experience in many of the "care" institutions or euthanasia.
I come with this dramatic title to the thread to highlight what it is going trough in these institutions and assuming that the sick does not have any other choice.
It is easy for us to look for options but for a physical incapacitated old person without any family that love or care for what he is going through, the options are very limited.
As I said, if I have only the two options I go for euthanasia.
Do not believe that there are possibilities to correct the way that these institutions operate any time soon. By the time that the politicians do something hundreds of old or incapacitated people will died going trough a mental and physical torture.
Be heartened that not all old aged facilities are as portrayed in the ABC current affairs programme. The local one here has a very good reputation and being in a small town, if it was not up to standard, word would get around very quick.
The aged care facility my uncle was in had a very good reputation as well.
That report was only representative of a few, not a majority.