Air intakes, snorkels and brands

[jimb]

Yep.' Search function 'is my friend but have specific question and phone searching is useless.

Mantec v safari v other brands
Safari
1. Mate who has safari told me they are better because all one piece to air box. True? If so is this better?

2. I like the Landrover/ Manteca style look the best but a Landrover specialist mechanic in town told me they were crap because the actually pipe was too narrow. True?

3. He had a Bermach or something that he said was the best but to me it looked hideous, but my knowledge is thin And know plenty of knowledge out there. How important is the diameter of the pipe?

And before everyone says Nugget, yep was planning on sealing it with nugget kit so has some snorkel capabilities

My understanding is
1. Higher air intake so sucking less dust and crap
2. Possible to get sealed and helps you in water crossings- in that you don't suck water if you stall or level comes too high.

Please correct my inaccuracies and forgive my ignorance. Thanks for any help.

Usage
Mainly go camping at beaches: fraser coollolaa, etc but also want to do trip up from rashie next year and to cape following year. So just wanting to make the car right. This is the car till I die- I hope so want to do it right.

[n plus one]

Yep.' Search function 'is my friend but have specific question and phone searching is useless.

Mantec v safari v other brands
Safari
1. Mate who has safari told me they are better because all one piece to air box. True? If so is this better?

2. I like the Landrover/ Manteca style look the best but a Landrover specialist mechanic in town told me they were crap because the actually pipe was too narrow. True?

3. He had a Bermach or something that he said was the best but to me it looked hideous, but my knowledge is thin And know plenty of knowledge out there. How important is the diameter of the pipe?

And before everyone says Nugget, yep was planning on sealing it with nugget kit so has some snorkel capabilities

My understanding is
1. Higher air intake so sucking less dust and crap
2. Possible to get sealed and helps you in water crossings- in that you don't suck water if you stall or level comes too high.

Please correct my inaccuracies and forgive my ignorance. Thanks for any help.

Usage
Mainly go camping at beaches: fraser coollolaa, etc but also want to do trip up from rashie next year and to cape following year. So just wanting to make the car right. This is the car till I die- I hope so want to do it right.

I have Safari with a Nugget kit - sealed up nicely and frees up the engine nicely (TDCi)..

[BigBlueOne]

I have Safari with a Nugget kit - sealed up nicely and frees up the engine nicely (TDCi)..

Hi mate, is yours 2.2 or 2.4?

[jimb]

2.4 puma

[jimb]

Sorry not a question for me.

[Loubrey]

Hi Jimb,

Unfortunately your "Land Rover Specialist" clearly doesn't know what he's talking about...

Mantec does an enormous amount of R&D on their products as they supply Land Rover with a number of their OME options right through the vehicle range. They have in fact over the years supplied most of the add on's to the Camel Trophy vehicles and all the add on's to the G4 Challenge vehicles. There is absolutely nothing wrong with their pipe diameter and their intake head has had serous development on its own to ensure the cleanest air delivered to the airbox possible.

They are however "Raised Air Intakes" (RAI) and not snorkels in the true sense of the word. You can however make it a "snorkel" with an add on product like Nugget's duct (you have to do that in any case with a Safari as well).

I have a Mantec on my 2.4 Puma and I can assure you that my vehicle gets more than enough air to perform as required. In my opinion the unique look suits the car and the general construction and manufacture quality is top notch.

When you make your choice, do it on your own merits and not based on other peoples ill judged brand bias.

Cheers,

Lou

[n plus one]

Hi mate, is yours 2.2 or 2.4?

2.4 - 2009 110

[jimb]

Lou,

Thanks mate. Yeah, I need to rely on other opinions to make a decision- but I was reasonably confident the Mantec was good, because it is the same as the LR one, but not from a knowledge based decision- just some deductive logic.
So
Q1. any answers on the one piece of safari? v mantic?
Q2. pipe diameter. A. No problems with Mantec


Function of a snorkel question (once you have turned a RAI into a snorkel)
So something that I am still a little confused about. air comes in, then through the air box, then to the engine. Currently without a snorkel, I am assuming/hoping expecting that when it rains, washing car etc there is a one way value in there somewhere that allows the water to get out?
Q. Is this correct?

When people talk about nuggets system/or similar sealing system, does this mean you are sealing everything around the air box in case you got yourself in a position where the air box inside engine bay was under water, it could not suck water in -
Q BUt if water does get in how does it get out?

Q. Also, if the air box can suck air in, how useful is a RAI if the air is still getting sucked in through the warm engine bay and potential dusty conditions?

Thanks to Lou, Pat, tombie and you other LR tragics who have a chance to educate.
jim

[Dopey]

Maybe this thread might help a bit, it shows the drain thingy, where it is and how to seal it.

Defender2 - View topic - Mantec RAI to snorkel conversion on puma (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic17821.html)

Also, as you already know, there is nuggets stuff to put in there as well.
Actually talking/reading about nugget, there is a very good build up thread of his defender on the website Hummer X Club (http://www.hummerxclub.com)
Mike.

[n plus one]

The standard air box system has a number of one way drain valves. As these valves have a habit of playing up, most people silastic them up when fitting a snorkel. The Safari head has flutes which remove rain however if you jam a hose in the snorkel with a fully sealed system tge water will either a) lay in the bottom of the air box and evaporate and be consumed by the engine, b) be of sufficient volume that the engine consumed it in a liquid form and hydraulics or c) flows out of the manual drain plug you installed while fitting your snorkel and sealing your air box.

Hope this helps - no idea re airflow rates between different snorkels.

[ProjectDirector]

Now you are trying to get into too much detail.

I decided to go with Mantec which looks great. It was fitted and waterproofed outside all the way to the air box. The car breaths just fine.

I guess this is a personal decision, they are intended to do the same thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[n plus one]

^^^^^^ this!

PS nice shot/rig!

Edit: the standard air box tubing is the most restrictive part of the system anyway - Nuggets kit solves this (and the sealing issues) so don't worry about which snorkel for airflow reasons.

[jimb]

Thanks for the replies.

Mike, appreciate that link. getting my understanding up. Yeah, will order a Mantec and will be calling Nugget to get the new air box kit etc. Anywhere in Australia to buy them?

beauty.

[debruiser]

Is that the mantec PM102?

Also this nugget that everyone speaks of.... how do we contact him?

[Ian1878]

I'm going to jump in right here with some additional naivety.

I've just had a Safari snorkle fitted by ARB. . . . .certainly nothing ever mention about this Nugget stuff . . . .

Q) am I safe to wade ?

The piping inside looks to be sealed etc . . . .confused .com

Model: 2013 110 Deefer

Ian

[n plus one]

Is that the mantec PM102?

Also this nugget that everyone speaks of.... how do we contact him?

Go to the verandah - his kits are in there.

Ian, if they've sealed the factory ducting you're good (not as good as a Nugget kit, but probably good enough), if not, try and think of your snorkel as more of a presentation piece than something functional.

[Ian1878]

:mad:


Ian, if they've sealed the factory ducting you're good (not as good as a Nugget kit, but probably good enough), if not, try and think of your snorkel as more of a presentation piece than something functional.

That just fills me with fear :censored:

Not being the most mechanically minded . . . . . I'll take recommendations on:

1) how to check

2) getting help to check

3) where to go to get it checked

😱

[jimb]

Ian

I am new into this research, but have read blocking the air intake, i.e.: safari, either remove the head and place piece of timber or pastil bag over top and the engine should stall.. But this is what i have read, I have no idea if this is reliable or damaging to engine- so wait for the expert to rip the *** out of my above comment before trying.

I also get the general feeling after reading these threads for a few years and talking to people on the road, that they seem to think a safari is a snorkel. I suppose because it is called a safari snorkel, but that in fact it would be more accurate to call them all raised air intakes, and that quite a lot of RIA are not sealed even remotely close to being a snorkel- which sorta stopped me from getting one, because I saw the main reason (although changed my mind a little on this), being for water crossing and believing I would not have some catostrophic issue because of water int he engine... and I'd rather not have one on, than one on that doesn't really work.

debruiser

I found a profile/contact number that seems to fit 'nugget'
My Profile - Nugget Stuff @ ExplorOz Members (http://www.exploroz.com/Customers/Nugget_Stuff.aspx)
I am not sure of this is him as yet, but will look again on the /Verandah for his details - I didn't find them last night anywhere- although I must admit to getting lost sometimes in the folders of AULRO.

[Loubrey]

The basics are that a diesel engine won't run without air and to "suffocate" it is the easiest not mechanical or electrical way to stop it running.

A sealed snorkel (one that is safe to wade beyond 900mm) should behave as follows:

1. Remove the intake head (very simple with no mechanical skill needed)
2. Start your engine and let it idle.
3. Using a piece of rubber as a seal, place a piece of timber over the intake pipe at the top of the snorkel and press down as hard as you can.
4. If your system is sealed properly you should have at the very least have a rev flutter and if your grip on the piece of timber is strong enough, cut the engine out.

If it doesn't do this your system is NOT sealed and you WILL take water on during a deep wade which WILL destroy your engine. (This counts for all diesels).

I personally don't feel it possible to seal the original ducting on a Td5 or Tdci Puma to achieve this and the only option is alternative ducting as per Nugget's system...

I've owned 300 Tdi's with sealed systems as described, but as I don't have an after market setup like Nugget's, I know for a fact my Puma is not safe to wade beyond the 900mm with a steady bow wave or 500mm if there is any risk of stopping during the crossing.

Cheers,

Lou

[jimb]

Is that the mantec PM102?

Also this nugget that everyone speaks of.... how do we contact him?

debruiser

Bloody good question! The one I am referring to is the commonly known Mantec Platic Jobby
Mantec | Quality Land Rover Accessories (http://www.mantec.co.uk/productdetail.cfm'theProductID=3F6184EB-15C5-F4C0-99C9ECF1E47E4E03)

On the Mantec webioste the product codes are below here, but it is pretty recognisable RAI, also mostly accepted that it is identical to the Land Rover RAI, accept for the branding, and that Mantex make the LR ones.

115-RAIDEF Defender 300TDi, TD5, 2.2 and 2.4 Puma
Raised Air Intake for Defender 2.4, 300tdi and TD5 (RAIDEF)

[jimb]

or 500mm if there is any risk of stopping during the crossing.


Ian,

I told you one of the clever blokes would either set it straight or chastise me for giving stupid information. Not far off at least!


Lou, quick question. You mention "if there is any risk of stopping"

How does everything change once you have to restart the engine? How come it sucks in more air / water once needing a restart versus continuing through the 500mm+water crossing?

[debruiser]

debruiser

Bloody good question! The one I am referring to is the commonly known Mantec Platic Jobby
Mantec | Quality Land Rover Accessories (http://www.mantec.co.uk/productdetail.cfm'theProductID=3F6184EB-15C5-F4C0-99C9ECF1E47E4E03)

On the Mantec webioste the product codes are below here, but it is pretty recognisable RAI, also mostly accepted that it is identical to the Land Rover RAI, accept for the branding, and that Mantex make the LR ones.

115-RAIDEF Defender 300TDi, TD5, 2.2 and 2.4 Puma
Raised Air Intake for Defender 2.4, 300tdi and TD5 (RAIDEF)

Ahhh yes. I saw that one.... doesn't float my boat personally.... Looks too plastic and too..... whats the word... "toyotaish" or maybe japanese rubbishish...

I was looking at this one:
Mantec | Quality Land Rover Accessories (http://www.mantec.co.uk/productdetail.cfm'theProductID=58C4A808-15C5-F4C0-997B89F59A914FF5)

[Loubrey]

Jimb,

Stopping during a water crossing refers to driving the car through water (as in a water crossing) and not making it to the other side and thus losing your bow wave. (I was not referring to stopping and starting the engine):D

Without a bow wave the water will start pouring through every one of the car's many seal gaps and in cars with electronic management (like Pumas) this is a problem beyond getting water in the air intake.

General common sense should prevail with water crossings and many schools of thought teach that they should be avoided if at all possible. While the car is obviously capable of water crossings there is an absolute host of issues that will start hounding you if its done too often.

1. Suspended sediment will start destroying your serpentine pulley bearings from the very first time you enter muddy water. I have seen them fail after only one day's play at the west's infamous "Power Lines" track.

2. Hot mechanical components suddenly cooled by cold water (like your diffs and hubs) will suck water in past the seals (even with perfectly functioning breathers) with the resultant wear to your mechanical components. Much worse with suspended sediment...

3. Breathers need extending in any case if you plan to wade through water deeper than 650mm odd otherwise you just have another point for water to be sucked in.

I have a raised air intake on my vehicle for the dust encountered in convoy and I have sealed my standard plumbing and ducting for this purpose and this purpose alone.

Cheers,

Lou

[jimb]

Each to their own, that one you like looks functional but bit like grab what ever parts you can to make this thing. Your comment about the Plastic one looking to japanese/toyotaish though - that is why I am little stand offish with Safari because it almost the quintessential toyota, nissan patrol etc accessory; safari Snorkel- whereas the Mantec ones have a much different aesthetic about them- even the one you like looks similar in design to the plastic jobby- just different materials.?

[debruiser]

Definitely horses for courses. I did think that the metal pipe one looked like they just went to bunning's to get some down-spout and a can of black fiddlybits! hmmm tempting... na I wouldn't' actually do that.

[Ian1878]

Well there goes my little pipe dream of poking my head out of the drivers window, positioning my nose and mouth next to the snorkle intake, making sure both I and the Deefer were still alive whilst ploughing through a deep river . . . .

Oh well😂


😃🚣⚓

[Ian1878]

I thought this was an interesting part of the description of how ARB view the Safari snorkle on their website . . . .


Protecting your engine from dust and water ingestion is essential when driving off road. A Safari snorkel will ensure that clean, dry air is always available, regardless of conditions.
Anyone who has spent time off road almost certainly would have experienced dry dusty roads, water crossings, snow or torrential rain whilst driving, testing both vehicle and driver and leaving your engine vulnerable to costly damage.
Created to protect 4WD engines from the hazards of dust and water commonly encountered in touring and off road driving, Safari snorkels relocate your air intake point from the relatively low and vulnerable position under the bonnet to a higher and safer location where a constant source of cool, clean and dry air is available.
Manufactured in Australia from premium quality polyethylene, Safari snorkels are UV stable and incredibly resilient to withstand the harsh Australian environment. All systems are individually designed to suit most popular 4WD models and undergo thorough research and testing prior to being tooled for production.
Safari snorkels are positively sealed to provide the ultimate in engine protection during river crossings and dusty conditions, while the quality fixtures and fittings ensure superior appearance and long term durability.


Should this make me more relaxed or should I err on the side of caution and stick to driving through small puddles ?��


Ian

[Loubrey]

Ian,

All Defender snorkels or RAI's are potentially water proof. They are all essentially a single moulded plastic tube that's attached to the Defender's wing. That is however where the warranty on the product and its performance ends.

You still have to duct the clean dry air to the engine without ingesting water or dust between the bottom of the snorkel and the engine's intake and this is where the problem lies.

All makes of 4x4's have dump valves for letting out water and impurities ingested by the air intake prior to reaching the air box. On early Defenders is was easy to seal these and have essentially a sealed system with no air or water leaks.

The modern Defender do however have very little space on the sides of the engine bay and there is little heed given to "excessive" sealing of the air intake system. On nearly all modern 4x4 (Puma Defenders included) the joints on this ducting is essentially push together fittings with no o-rings or jubilee clips.

So the long and the short is that if you really want to drive through water you need to take sealing the system into your own hands (with after market products like Nugget's duct) and do the seal check I described earlier.

There is now way on earth a company like ARB will be interested in any reparation for damage suffered due to water ingestion between the bottom of the snorkel and the engine intake...

Cheers,

Lou

[n plus one]

I thought this was an interesting part of the description of how ARB view the Safari snorkle on their website . . . .


Protecting your engine from dust and water ingestion is essential when driving off road. A Safari snorkel will ensure that clean, dry air is always available, regardless of conditions.
Anyone who has spent time off road almost certainly would have experienced dry dusty roads, water crossings, snow or torrential rain whilst driving, testing both vehicle and driver and leaving your engine vulnerable to costly damage.
Created to protect 4WD engines from the hazards of dust and water commonly encountered in touring and off road driving, Safari snorkels relocate your air intake point from the relatively low and vulnerable position under the bonnet to a higher and safer location where a constant source of cool, clean and dry air is available.
Manufactured in Australia from premium quality polyethylene, Safari snorkels are UV stable and incredibly resilient to withstand the harsh Australian environment. All systems are individually designed to suit most popular 4WD models and undergo thorough research and testing prior to being tooled for production.
Safari snorkels are positively sealed to provide the ultimate in engine protection during river crossings and dusty conditions, while the quality fixtures and fittings ensure superior appearance and long term durability.


Should this make me more relaxed or should I err on the side of caution and stick to driving through small puddles ?��


Ian

If you have an issue, it won't be with the snorkel, it will be with the factory ducting to which the snorkel attaches - this ducting goes from your air filter box to the small intake air box behind the RHS guard and is not sealed from the factory. When my snorkel was fitted the installers did a good job of sealing this section, however I subsequently fitted a nugget kit because a) it's hard to confirm how good a job others have done, b) I wanted to be confident and c) the standard ducting is highly restrictive and opening it up makes for a happier engine.

To be clear, you can confidently do 500mm water crossings without any if tgis stuff - but if you want to go deeper or are risk averse, then you need to dig deeper.

PS you can test your install by blocking your snorkel, but the pressure calcs make me very wary of this approach ymmv

[jimb]

where and what are the 'breathers'?

[jimb]

PS you can test your install by blocking your snorkel, but the pressure calcs make me very wary of this approach ymmv

Why does it make you wary? pressure calculations?

[nugge t]

Both ARB and TJM, in their fitting instructions say that the original ducting needs to be removed and sealed with silicon.

As Landrover don't have a proceedure to remove the duct, and removing the air filter box is an exercise all on its own, I have real reservations as to how often this would actually be done.

I am sure those who have fitted one of my kits with agree that getting the duct out without cutting would be about as easy as doing a Rubik's cube in the dark.

Personally I would fit a nuggets kit every time....I hear they are pretty good :D :D

[n plus one]

Why does it make you wary? pressure calculations?

Absolute pressure at sea level is in the order of 14.7psi (~7kg) - assuming the engine can draw down to somewhere approaching vacuum just before stalling - a 10 square inch area therefore has 70kg of crush force on it. Now think in terms of how much crush force you're subjecting your ducting to and/or your silasticed joints...

By way of comparison, your ducting would be under a similar level of ingress pressure once your car is 10 metres under water...

[goingbush]

Each to their own, that one you like looks functional but bit like grab what ever parts you can to make this thing. Your comment about the Plastic one looking to japanese/toyotaish though - that is why I am little stand offish with Safari because it almost the quintessential toyota, nissan patrol etc accessory; safari Snorkel- whereas the Mantec ones have a much different aesthetic about them- even the one you like looks similar in design to the plastic jobby- just different materials.?

I do have a feeling your going to love my Snorkle Head ... Not

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/555.jpg

my shorkle head of choice comes straight off a Toyota, self cleaning cyclonic (the dust and /or water spins out the little slots on the top), if its good enough flow for their 4.5 turbo V8 diesel its going to have plenty of flow for my Td5

[2stroke]

I bought a self cleaning spinny thing for mine when I did the head and turbo on my 300 Tdi. The guy at Turbo Australia convinced me it was a good idea. It's called a "Syclone" or similar. It needed to be sized with respect to engine capacity and max. rpm. Will know more about it's effectiveness after this year's canning trip.
:D By the way I leave in just over 2 weeks... ya think I'm excited?:cool:

[nugge t]

I have run Sy Klone pre cleaners on my last 2 trucks and they work great. Spin out the heavy particiles and keep the air filter significantly cleaner.

Always had a doubt about how much water/rain standard snorkel heads potentially let in. The Sy Klone draws from underneath which all but eliminates the rain issue.

You also need to block all drains when fitting a Sy Klone.

[n plus one]

I have run Sy Klone pre cleaners on my last 2 trucks and they work great. Spin out the heavy particiles and keep the air filter significantly cleaner.

Always had a doubt about how much water/rain standard snorkel heads potentially let in. The Sy Klone draws from underneath which all but eliminates the rain issue.

You also need to block all drains when fitting a Sy Klone.

PM sent.

[debruiser]

Just installed my Nugget kit and a mantec snorkel. Took me 3.5hrs roughly, I wasn't actually timing. Nugget's kit worked well! It was a bit scary getting my reciprocating saw into the engine bay and chopping up the old air intake :o but I dont think I damaged anything.

Nugget if your not already aware, the Mantec snorkel - Mantec | Quality Land Rover Accessories (http://www.mantec.co.uk/productdetail.cfm'theProductID=58C4A808-15C5-F4C0-997B89F59A914FF5) uses 4 of the 5 holes on the air "vent" on the side of the gaurd. The 5th is in a different spot to accommodate the pipe. If your ever revisiting the design of your kit, it might be worth thinking about adding that hole to the air box.

[nugge t]

That's interesting. The Mantec I had previously fitted had 2 clips at the bottom and only 2 screws which screwed through the guard holes ( 2 of the 5) and into the replacement air box.

Just looking at the link and it still only looks like 2 screws with caps in photo. This is the screws which hold the Mantec to the outside of the guard we are referring to?

[debruiser]

Sorry my description is average. Here's a couple of pics.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/1106.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/2013%20D90/P9300002_zps56cc2cf4.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/64.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/2013%20D90/P9300001_zps7f48e713.jpg.html)

I actually had to drill a hole in the body to fit that top left screw. As you can see I used your screws not the nice black ones that Mantec supplied. They wouldn't have held in the plastic because they were metal type screws. I don't really care if the screws stand out anyway.

Edit: that plate that bolts to the body is just a flat plate, no clips or anything. Take the screws out and it falls off, well except for the shoddy silasticing job I did.... that's a long story that got me VERY angry at the time.

[nugge t]

OK...the Mantec previously fitted was their full plastic one, not the metal.

I wasn't aware of this one so I will have to be careful when the generic "Mantec" is used in future.:D

[debruiser]

OK...the Mantec previously fitted was their full plastic one, not the metal.

I wasn't aware of this one so I will have to be careful when the generic "Mantec" is used in future.:D

No problems, just thought I'd let you know how I went and what I found. To "fix" it you would just need to add an extra screw mount/lump/bit to the air box. Then it could still be a generic thing and only ppl with a metal mantec would even know ;)

Great kit though!

Took me a bit to figure out how to get the flare/gaurd off, those stupid plastic clip things grrrr.... why can't they just use screws :p