Disco no-go...

[bell1975]

Evening all.

I'm keen to hear some thoughts on the situation I have with my D2 at the moment.

The story goes like this:

* I won an eBay auction for a second set of wheels, bit of bling, wanted to tart the old D2 up a bit. Refer photo below. I was planning to put some muddies on these until I spent the tax return on other more boring stuff like physio bills and the mortgage unfortunately. (5 x rims, 16 wheel nuts, painted with VHT Wheel Paint that's been baked in a heat booth...all for $202.50...what's not to like eh?)

* The vehicle hasn't been getting a huge amount of km's on it of late as I've had a herniated L5/S1 and can't drive for the severe sciatic pain in my leg. It's done a few decent 2+ hour trips and a few short 5 minute ones in the last 2 months.

* I drove it 1.5kms to the tyre place to get tyres put onto those rims. Parked it. Left it unlocked (passive immobilisation was almost positively on so it would have activated the immobiliser while I was inside talking to the staff)

* The staff member who I gave the key to was taking too long to bring the vehicle into the workshop where I was waiting, so I walked back out to it...2 toddlers in tow. He's coming toward me shaking his head "Couldn't get it to start.". Oh. Ok. What did you do?

* From the 3 word replies I was getting I managed to work out that he had walked toward it pressing the "Lock" button on the fob several times - not realising that the padlock symbol usually means "lock". He then tries the drivers' door handle and realises that it is locked. But no, rather than take a closer look at the fob in his hand and try the other button he puts the key into the door lock and unlocks it with the key...[cue Twilight Zone theme music]

* It's about now that I realise that he's probably (a) superlocked it with the double press on the lock button on the remote fob, and (b) opened a medium-sized jar of LR eating gremlins when the BCU got the signal to unlock the door after it had been superlocked...

Aaaarrggggghhhhhhhh....bollocks. Or words to that effect I said as quietly as I could so the kids wouldn't hear me.

What happened next is where I'm keen to hear others' thoughts.

For all intent and purposes I thought the immobiliser must've been stopping the engine from turning over. I had a normal dash in front of me after turning the key to position II. All the usual christmas tree lights (I especially like the ACE one that changes colour as it does the self check on the system) are there like normal.

But, turn to start and nothing. Just a dimming of the backlight on the clock.

I have not had one suggestion of a faulty starter solenoid in the previous 200 times I'd started it (had that a year ago and this was nothing like it). I replaced the solenoid contacts at that time.

That's not to say that the solenoid may have decided to pack it in there and then and being unlocked with the key was just a coincidence.

I tried the game of getting out and locking the vehicle with the fob, unlocking and trying to start. Nope. Same outcome. Several times.

Tried the EKA to reset the immobiliser. Nope. Didn't appear to be working.

(I recall that I had the alarm turned on under the BCU settings, set to Horn (or Vehicle IIRC), Passive immobilisation was "enabled", Passive Coil was "fitted", Alarm disarm was "(key) always", SPE was "not enabled", EKA was "enabled")

In relation to the EKA - I have not been able to hear the beep/s when the code is entered correctly or incorrectly (well, I'm deaf to that frequency of sound so I got my wife to listen for them). No beeps heard, and you'd expect to hear a double beep if the EKA was wrong AFAIK. Maybe the BBUS is cactus and this is where the beeps originate from?

When entering the EKA I started with the key being turned to the right/Unlock for 5 seconds. I can see the immobiliser/alarm light on the dash go from flashing every 2 seconds (as it's just been locked) to a solid flash for about 3 seconds. I'm assuming the solid flash is matched to when it should be beeping. There's no mention of the solid LED in the manual.

Sorry, this is getting a bit long. It seems like the more info I give to you guys the less doubt there might be about what is going on with the vehicle.

I tried pulling the battery terminals off for 5 minutes and then locking/unlocking with the fob. No change.

I have always thought that when the vehicle was immobilised and you tried to start it you got the alarm LED lit solid (ie. not flashing). That's what I recall from the previous time I had BCU sync issues. (Key lost sync after the BCU went to sleep. The Nanocom wasn't able to sort that one, I had to get it to someone with Autologic.)

* Since the initial fail to start I have not had a solidly lit alarm LED.
* It appears to arm/disarm ok.
* There is no loss of functionality of the fob as far as I can see.
* I can operate the BCU functions like horn, windows, indicators, etc 100% normally either through the Nanocom or with their switches.
* Inertia switch has also been checked. It's still down.

I got under the vehicle today after discussion with my Dad (Happy Vietnam Veteran's Day old man) and he suggested dead shorting the starter solenoid to see if it spins up.

Plenty of sparks and a solid click but not any spinning that I could hear. I tried this with the big, fat positive cable disconnected but the other Lucar connector still attached and the key in position II. There's also 12.4 volts at that terminal when the key is being turned to 'Start'.

This person here has the same issue (http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f40/stuck-superlock-discovery-ii-td5-es-43729/index2.html)...but there's no further posts on the thread!

The next issue is probably related - blown fusible link number 7 (have to check that in the morning and confirm). I'm unsure when this happened. I can't say I noticed it until yesterday afternoon when the first attempt at dead shorting the starter was taking place. I put a 30 amp fuse across the terminals where the FL should be while trying to see if the solenoid was clicking and it stayed intact.

Do the collective minds of you lot out there think that the BCU could still be implicated in this scenario? Or is it looking more like a textbook starter solenoid failure?

Dad's coming up tomorrow with a plunger and contacts set and we'll try that first up. And bodge up a 30 amp fusible link....but I don't think the D2 is getting me back to work on Tuesday...:mad:

Cheers for making it this far. Any thoughts on this are welcome. (Just previewed this and by crikey this is a novel! But it should hopefully help to have some of the finer details.)

[Disco Muppet]

Is it still at the place where the wheels are?
Sorry, I skim-read your post but it sounds rather alot like the radio interference issue.
I had it happen at OL when they put the lift in, they spent most of a day trying to work it out, rolled it 5m out of the shed and away it went.

[antond]

If auto, have you checked its completely in Park? I had a non start for awhile until I realised a slight bit of movement in the lever with it not quite in Park position. Simple fix...?

[Disco Muppet]

If it's been superlocked and then had to open an individual door, whenever I've done that it's simply made the alarm go mental at me.
Then again it does that whenever I open the car with the key in the door :D

[bell1975]

If auto, have you checked its completely in Park? I had a non start for awhile until I realised a slight bit of movement in the lever with it not quite in Park position. Simple fix...?

Yes, it is an auto. I rowed up and down the box while trying to start it. I tried it in neutral also. I gave the XYZ a bit of a wriggle around as well. I'm 99% confident that it truly is in park. Thanks for your input.


If it's been superlocked and then had to open an individual door, whenever I've done that it's simply made the alarm go mental at me.
Then again it does that whenever I open the car with the key in the door :D

Thanks for the input DM. I towed it home with my wife's Kia Rio. Shameful I know.... The radio interference thing has never happened to me yet AFAIK. The RF interference issue is overridden by turning the key in the lock which means that if this had happened the tyre shop bloke would have woken the BCU up when he unlocked it with the key.

I suspect that I had the alarm set to BBUS as opposed to Horn as it didn't go off when this bloke opened it with the key. I recall turning off the volumetric sensors as there were a couple of times that I left a window down while it was in the shed and a moth or some bug set off the alarm and this was not v long after I'd replaced the horns. It's no fun being woken at 3am by your wife to turn off the alarm that is making your normally quiet street sound like peak hour in Mumbai.

I reckon the battery that supplies the BBUS is dead but haven't had a chance to investigate that. I don't mind climbing under the Disco and getting grubby but mucking about with trim is my least favourite thing. There's always that moment before a fastener releases where I'm thinking "Is this gonna snap on me and become another annoying rattling thing cos it will never fit like it was meant to ever again...". You'll never find me embarking on a headliner replacement that's for sure.

Thanks again. I'll update this when I have the solenoid out tomorrow.

[ballbag]

BCU isolates starter when car is immobilised, so 12V at the starter when key is turned suggests BCU is not in immobilised state. I think.

I'd try jump starting it. Battery might give 12V might not be able to supply enough current to operate the starter.

If no success then I'd be looking at the starter.

Some reading here on battery and starter: Discovery 2: Battery or starter? - 4x4 Community Forum (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php't=90680)

[bell1975]

BCU isolates starter when car is immobilised, so 12V at the starter when key is turned suggests BCU is not in immobilised state. I think.

I'd try jump starting it. Battery might give 12V might not be able to supply enough current to operate the starter.

If no success then I'd be looking at the starter.

Some reading here on battery and starter: Discovery 2: Battery or starter? - 4x4 Community Forum (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php't=90680)

Cheers for that. I removed the starter, have bench tested it and we find that the shaft is not pushing out when it's energised.

So at this point it looks like the starter is cactus. I'm 99% sure it's original so that isn't too bad for a MY99 I guess.

The added bonus of having the starter out has been to discover the FPR/fuel block is leaking.

That probably solves the problem of what thought was a slow weep from the sump plug. Diesel has been running down the side of the block accumulating colour as it goes and making its way along the bellhousing and ending up at the sump plug.

The photo shows the culprit. I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't pick up on this sooner but there have also been qualified mechanics that have worked on it in the past 20 000kms and they haven't picked it up either. I reckon it's been leaking for a while as this slow drip off the sump plug has been there for at least that many kms. I'd previously thought the origin of it had been a leaking front diff pinion seal - diff oil was being flung up off the propshaft onto the driver side of the block and making its way back down to the lowest point....sump plug.

I'm hopeful that a replacement starter that I'll have in a couple of hours will get it mobile again.

$300-350 looks to be the going rate for a genuine FPR so that'll get done later this week while I'm at work.

I only work to have a holiday from the kids and pay for LR bills....

Thanks again for the input that people have had so far. But for me it ain't over til it's turned over...

(And if you've got a good eye you'll have spotted the single drop of red coolant on that hose on the LHS of the photo, beneath the yellow/green tape. I haven't tracked it back to the source yet but I suspect it's off a heater hose or one of the hoses into/out of the expansion tank.)

[Robgw]

Couple of things.. interference I get that up at our local IGA. Not sure why but parking out front I cannot never lock or unlock my Disco or Nissan X-trail. The range if pretty poor on the LR key fob too.

Have to admit my car would not start the same way once. The family was hopping up and down driving me mad and making the situation more stressful as we were running late. They carried on in a Cab whilst I awaited NRMA.

The guy turned up, checked battery etc then jumped in an spotted it was is Reverse!. My son was climbing all over the car when it was parked and after said "yes I moved it when prentending to drive"...

[alien]

A lot of folk find their FPR's are leaking when the starter fails.
The oil/fuel mix gets into the contacts and plunger.

I think your on the right track with the repairs, keep us informed of your progress.

[bell1975]

Couple of things.. interference I get that up at our local IGA. Not sure why but parking out front I cannot never lock or unlock my Disco or Nissan X-trail. The range if pretty poor on the LR key fob too.

Have to admit my car would not start the same way once. The family was hopping up and down driving me mad and making the situation more stressful as we were running late. They carried on in a Cab whilst I awaited NRMA.

The guy turned up, checked battery etc then jumped in an spotted it was is Reverse!. My son was climbing all over the car when it was parked and after said "yes I moved it when prentending to drive"...

Gotta love kids eh. I've not had the RF interference thing (yet). Avoid Amcal pharmacies they reckon.


A lot of folk find their FPR's are leaking when the starter fails.
The oil/fuel mix gets into the contacts and plunger.

I think your on the right track with the repairs, keep us informed of your progress.

Once the new starter went in it fired up no worries. I was very glad as it was getting close to zero degrees out on the grass in my backyard where I had to do the work as I had no way of getting it up the slope into the garage (where it was still the same temperature but I could at least use the creeper).

FPR is going on this week. I should have just bought one and done it myself on my next days off but I have too much else on and I am doing my bit to support a local business too. The 'keep it local' price premium is a bit hard to swallow at times though. And doing it myself adds to my familiarity with the vehicle which is no bad thing...there will always be a next time.

Incidentally, the solenoid looked quite ok inside as the photo shows. There was no evidence that diesel or any moisture at all had been in there. The uneven wear on the contacts was probably just from me not making sure the bolt that goes to the positive wire was straight/perpendicular depending on how you're looking at it. The plastic kind of seal between the bellhousing and the starter lets a bit of moisture and crap past it though. And the small horizontal ledge on the engine that is beside the starter allows crud to accumulate. If the junk that sits there (in my case: the leaking diesel and sand/salt as the vehicle does a lot of beach driving) was getting into the starter it would have been via the seal on the output shaft of the starter as far as I can see. It'd be handy to have this unit as a spare if it's not too costly to repair.

I'll pull the starter apart one day and see what may be amiss in there (ie. add it to the growing pile of other bits I've replaced).

Thanks for your input fellas.

[schuy1]

Glad to see it was something "Simple" :D and not a "where to next after 2 weeks" thing.

Yes sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get some1 else to do stuff. Even though it costs.
Cheers Scott