There is not need to go hungry

[Chucaro]

Hungry, bad nutrition and obesity is some of the things that we read very often and there is no need for them.
Have a look this foodscape in Geneva, Switzerland, it is beautiful and serve a very important purpose, eat cheap, fresh and healthy.
I guess that with proper education at school level we can hope to see something like this in Australia in the future.
Ah! and there are no excuses, the weater in Geneva is not as nice as here.:)

http://dolphriends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Swiss-Foodscaping.jpg

[gromit]

Hungry, bad nutrition and obesity is some of the things that we read very often and there is no need for them.
Have a look this foodscape in Geneva, Switzerland, it is beautiful and serve a very important purpose, eat cheap, fresh and healthy.
I guess that with proper education at school level we can hope to see something like this in Australia in the future.
Ah! and there are no excuses, the weater in Geneva is not as nice as here.:)



One picture doesn't sum up the whole country. Might possibly be because the cost of living is so high.

Cost of living - Switzerland - Information (http://www.swissworld.org/en/economy/wages_and_prosperity/cost_of_living/)


Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Remember there are a lot of bare hills/mountains in Switzerland with nothing but grass and the veges would have to be harvested by abseillers.

The other aspect is that most food has to come over or through some very tall mountains, making transport costs quite expensive.

BTW: I love how they enhanced the green with optical filters.

[Chucaro]

One picture doesn't sum up the whole country. Might possibly be because the cost of living is so high.
Colin

I think that you have missed the point, it does not have nothing to do with the cost of living, it have to do with the willing to put a bit of an effort to have a good nutritious food and help to stop the bad nutrition and obesity in Australia.
There are a total of 50000 ha of backyards like the ones in the photo which it is a lot of food in Switzerland and I cannot see why we cannot have the same here.
If you take into consideration the cost of living there are thousands of unemployed people or with very low income here in Australia to whom the "cost of living" is so high that hardly can afford good food if they do not cultivate the back yard or plant their veggies on the community gardens.

[Chucaro]

Remember there are a lot of bare hills/mountains in Switzerland with nothing but grass and the veges would have to be harvested by abseillers.

The other aspect is that most food has to come over or through some very tall mountains, making transport costs quite expensive.

BTW: I love how they enhanced the green with optical filters.

What have that to do with educate people to grow their own fresh food and eat well?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Nothing if you want to be subsistence farmers.

Many people living in the city wouldn't even have a space for the shovel, let alone anywhere to grow the vegetables. Economically it can be cheaper, more efficient and to ensure regular supply to earn money in a non-agricultural industry and use the money to purchase all the fresh produce you require from efficient producers (farmers).

[trog]

keeping my costs down is one thing but i just like the idea that i did it myself. sort of the nutritional equivelent of landy ownership and doing as much maintainence at home.:)

[PhilipA]

Many cities in Europe have these communal plots as do some cities in UK.
The main reason they are necessary is that a high proportion of residents live in apartments with no back yard, so the plots enable them to grow home grown veges, mainly as a "hobby". If they tried to do it for a living on those plots they would soon starve.

I don't know how it compares but many people in Sydney Melbourne etc have big back yards where they grow stuff. Think of the Stavros ! Stavros! the cockies are eating your veges ad on TV.

However this is a pretty inefficient way of growing things and the extensive Chinese and other market gardens around all of our capitals would outproduce them by a large factor per unit of land.

I do not see the connection between obestity etc as anyone in Australia can afford good quality fruit and vegetables .It is a question of the people CHOOSING to eat junk food that causes obestity etc.
Regards Philip A

[KarlB]

There may be no need to go hungry, but the costs can be high. The impact of such intensive (urban) agriculture practices can have significant environmental impacts.

Switzerland is not a paragon of virtue. It has a particularly bad record as far as its native flora and fauna goes. Worldwide, 330 land and freshwater taxa have been confirmed extinct; this represents 1 per cent of all species assessed by the IUCN (around 33,000). At 2 per cent, the proportion of extinct species in Switzerland is twice as high. These figures clearly demonstrate that the disappearance of species begins at regional level in that individual populations die out and the global range of the individual species becomes increasingly fragmented. If this process continues, the species eventually becomes extinct at global level.

255 species on Switzerland’s Red Lists are classified as Extinct in Switzerland. The proportion of nationally extinct species would be considerably higher if it were not for the fact that, after a period time, some previously extinct species have either returned of their own accord or – like the Bearded Vulture and the Eurasian Lynx – been actively reintroduced under species recovery programs.

554 species in Switzerland are considered Critically Endangered (ie very near extinction). Such species tend to have an extremely restricted or fragmented range in the country, have significantly reduced population sizes or are only represented by a few individuals.

I am not suggesting that intensive agricultural practices are the cause of the demise of Switzerland's flora and fauna. I have no doubt that the utilitarian attitudes that are exemplified by such urban agricultural landscapes, have contributed to that demise.

You can find out more about Switzerlands threatened and extinct species here: FOEN - Publications - Threatened Species in Switzerland (http://www.bafu.admin.ch/publikationen/publikation/01631/index.html?lang=en)

Cheers
KarlB
:(
PS My grandfather was Swiss!

[gromit]

I think that you have missed the point, it does not have nothing to do with the cost of living, it have to do with the willing to put a bit of an effort to have a good nutritious food and help to stop the bad nutrition and obesity in Australia.
There are a total of 50000 ha of backyards like the ones in the photo which it is a lot of food in Switzerland and I cannot see why we cannot have the same here.
If you take into consideration the cost of living there are thousands of unemployed people or with very low income here in Australia to whom the "cost of living" is so high that hardly can afford good food if they do not cultivate the back yard or plant their veggies on the community gardens.

The only supporting evidence you've included is one picture.
You'd make a good politician.

Colin

[Chucaro]

Nothing if you want to be subsistence farmers.

Many people living in the city wouldn't even have a space for the shovel, let alone anywhere to grow the vegetables. Economically it can be cheaper, more efficient and to ensure regular supply to earn money in a non-agricultural industry and use the money to purchase all the fresh produce you require from efficient producers (farmers).

Many? how many do not have 50 square meters of soil?
How many do not have access to a community garden?

Economical? farmers? Are you aware of how many vegetables and farm produce is imported to Australia regardless if people grow or not their own food?
Earn money? are you aware of how many people lost their job, do not have a full time job or earning about $ 600 a week after tax just to pay rent, overheads, etc?
But, again the purpose of the thread or topic was to teach people to grow their own food and eat fresh and health not economy.
If you like to add the economy factor add the health benefits of eat well ;)

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ............
I am not suggesting that intensive agricultural practices are the cause of the demise of Switzerland's flora and fauna. I have no doubt that the utilitarian attitudes that are exemplified by such urban agricultural landscapes, have contributed to that demise.

.................................................. ................................

Cheers
KarlB
:(
PS My grandfather was Swiss!

Karl, are you suggesting that what the Swiss people are doing it is worse to the environment than having the lawn and all the water and resources to maintain it like we do it is Australia?
Are you comparing the population density per habitable or suitable land in Switzerland to the one in Australia.
Since we, the whites come to Australia we damaged more land that what the Swiss done in their country in the last 200 years!
PS: My great grand mother is Swiss and my grandfather and his 2 brothers studied in the university of Geneva back in 1890 :)

[Chucaro]

The only supporting evidence you've included is one picture.
You'd make a good politician.

Colin

Colin, I am not prepared to do the research for you, if you like to knock the benefits of growing the own food and or permaculture not only in Europe but around the world, well it is your shot.
Talking about politicians, with your comment you can make a good consultant for Tony :D

[gromit]

Colin, I am not prepared to do the research for you, if you like to knock the benefits of growing the own food and or permaculture not only in Europe but around the world, well it is your shot.
Talking about politicians, with your comment you can make a good consultant for Tony :D

You raised the subject with only a picture as supporting evidence.
I haven't, as you stated, knocked the benefits.

Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Many? how many do not have 50 square meters of soil? <in my suburb about 5,000 appartments>
How many do not have access to a community garden?<the whole district, there are no community gardens in my district.>

Economical? farmers? Are you aware of how many vegetables and farm produce is imported to Australia regardless if people grow or not their own food?<thousands of tons - it is how we get summer vegetables in the middle of winter>
Earn money? are you aware of how many people lost their job, do not have a full time job or earning about $ 600 a week after tax just to pay rent, overheads, etc? <5.7% of the workforce, far less unemployed than most of Europe or the 7.4% in the USA who do not have guaranteed unemployment benefits>
But, again the purpose of the thread or topic was to teach people to grow their own food and eat fresh and health not economy.
If you like to add the economy factor add the health benefits of eat well ;)Your thread was not designed to teach anyone anything, it was a green enhanced image of a very small part of Switzerland, have you been there, have you been to the Italian areas of the country, or the alpine areas they are nothing like your image. Have you been there in winter, nothing edible grows while under the snow!

Yes it can be great to grow your own food, most people in cities don't have either the space or the time to grow their own food and if they did their diet would lack a lot variety and they would have periods without fresh vegetables neither of which are good for your health.

It is however good to purchase fresh produce from local farmers or farmers markets.

[Chucaro]

You raised the subject with only a picture as supporting evidence.
I haven't, as you stated, knocked the benefits.

Colin

I give up, if you cannot read form a photo and using a basic knowledge of the benefits (therapeutic, nutrition and health among others ) of having a veggie patch then there is not use to debate.

[Chucaro]

Your thread was not designed to teach anyone anything, it was a green enhanced image of a very small part of Switzerland, have you been there, have you been to the Italian areas of the country, or the alpine areas they are nothing like your image. Have you been there in winter, nothing edible grows while under the snow!

Yes it can be great to grow your own food, most people in cities don't have either the space or the time to grow their own food and if they did their diet would lack a lot variety and they would have periods without fresh vegetables neither of which are good for your health.

It is however good to purchase fresh produce from local farmers or farmers markets.

Wrong, people learn by examples.
Cities do not have the space? again wrong, many initiatives are put in the to hard basket.

Quote: Earn money? are you aware of how many people lost their job, do not have a full time job or earning about $ 600 a week after tax just to pay rent, overheads, etc? <5.7% of the workforce, far less unemployed than most of Europe or the 7.4% in the USA who do not have guaranteed unemployment benefits>

The 5.7% is manipulated because if a person works 8 hour a week is employed, further more if working more hours but the income is bellow the poverty line (part time work) is also employed.

But any way, I can see that we are not in the same page, no even in the same book :)

[TeamFA]

Good thought, but until we can control our Totalitarian Agriculture, or exercise some population control (now I have to duck for cover for suggesting that), then it's just another stop-gap measure.

Anybody read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn?

[clubagreenie]

Many? how many do not have 50 square meters of soil?
How many do not have access to a community garden?



Well I live in one of the larger yarded areas in western Sydney. And don't do it.

There was a community garden, started WITHOUT any funding from any level of government. One person leased a plot that was unused but fenced behind a community centre. Over 6 months volunteers worked and improved it and had crops of over a dozen varieties growing that would be made available to anyone who wanted it purely on a donation basis, if you could afford it.

Have you visited inner western Sydney? Where for instance a "house" and thats the kind term, on a corner fetches 80k more than one wedged between others because the only access to the back yard is through the house. No external access whatsoever to the maybe 20sqm of concrete yard that is taken up with the external, detached toilet, outside laundry and clothes line.

And thats an example of a suburb that has backyards. I have a friend in Maroubra that has no back and couldn't park a smart car sideways in the space between the footpath and front door. Darlinghurst, Glebe, some of the blocks aren't 50sqm. There was a laneway sold recently that was 2.6m across and 8m deep. $487,000. Girl plans to build something there to exist in.

I love Sydney as a place. But it's no where to live. I'm heading to Tas.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wrong, people learn by examples.
Cities do not have the space? again wrong, many initiatives are put in the to hard basket.

Quote: Earn money? are you aware of how many people lost their job, do not have a full time job or earning about $ 600 a week after tax just to pay rent, overheads, etc? <5.7% of the workforce, far less unemployed than most of Europe or the 7.4% in the USA who do not have guaranteed unemployment benefits>

The 5.7% is manipulated because if a person works 8 hour a week is employed, further more if working more hours but the income is bellow the poverty line (part time work) is also employed.

But any way, I can see that we are not in the same page, no even in the same book :)Yes people do learn by example, but showing people a single image of a well organised (German) part of a rich country during summer and suggest it is a shining example of what we all should be doing, ignores the basic facts of many people's lives.

Hundreds of thousands of inner-city and urban apartment dwellers quite frequently do not have any space for a vege patch, those parts of the complex where there is space (if any) are under the control of the body corporate who's rules would often rather have a landscaped garden rather than one resident's vege patch. Particularly if the resident is a tennant.

The growing of vegetables for self consumption is an admirable endeavour, and provide the occasional fresh produce (often too much in a short time period before it goes to seed in the ground), but frequently the working poor are too busy working several low paid jobs and the total volume of produce that they could grow would ensure that they go hungry frequently.

Your thread would have been far more informative if you showed a range of options like indoor hydroponics, outdoor vege patches and local market gardens.

Remember people in subsistence agrarian cultures often go hungry and have to sell their produce to purchase sufficient other types of food to survive.

Home vege patches are little better than a suppliment to total nuitritional needs not the panacea to hunger.

[DiscoMick]

Well, I agree that its great to encourage people to grow some of their own vegies. We have been increasing the vegies we grow for several years now. Its trial and error, but its both satisfying and saves some money, although that's not our main purpose. Its great to be able to go out into the garden and harvest something to include with dinner.
We also avoid supermarket vegies and shop in local markets because the food seems to last longer.
I suggest people just focus on a few vegies they eat a lot of or that are easy to grow, and add bought vegies to it.
There was a time when most Aussie houses had backyard vegie gardens. Actually, you don't need a yard, as many vegies can be grown in pots or other ways. For example, we have a hanging bag of strawberries.
Put in a rainwater tank and you're away.
Its also a good way of encouraging children to get their hands dirty and learn something useful for their later lives.

[Chucaro]

Thank you Mick, at last someone "is in the same page" that I am.
The educational benefit for the kids is awesome you can see the difference between kids tat look after a veggie patch at home and at the school and those that do not get near the garden.
Alsowe have to mention that if we add about 6 hens they will recycle the waste and give the family an average of 4 eggs a day plus help with the improvement of the soil.
It is a win win if you ask me compared to a yard just covered with lawn.
I agree with you if there is not enough land there are ways to have a fresh home grown salad.:)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/576.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/577.jpg

I guess that if it is possible to have roof gardens in New York it is possible to do it in Sydney.
When is a will is a way ;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/578.jpg

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thank you Mick, at last someone "is in the same page" that I am.
why don't you read other people's posts Chucaro? Others all along have said fresh veges are a good suppliment, I even suggested you show hydroponic setups, but once again you choose to feign dissaproval and your own superiority of thinking, if anyone challenges your overly-broad and sweeping statements.

[djam1]

Chucky it must be hard to carry your burdens
If I look out my window I see red rocks Spinifex and Kangaroos sadly the green flowing hills of Tasmania are miniscule part of the Australian environment.
I could eat the Kangaroos but some bleeding heart will tell me I cant because they are endangered, anyway I cant own a gun so I would have to chase them with sticks.
My 50 Square Metres will result in not much food because its mainly rock and sand.
If you look at a map of Australia its mainly desert that said if it were possible I would eat off the land

[Chucaro]

why don't you read other people's posts Chucaro? Others all along have said fresh veges are a good suppliment, I even suggested you show hydroponic setups, but once again you choose to feign dissaproval and your own superiority of thinking, if anyone challenges your overly-broad and sweeping statements.

Yes I read them, your first one was about that it is better for earning the money in a job and purchasing the veggies from the farmer and also you made a comment about the saturated greens on the image. Excuse me if I have interpreted it wrong.
Other members said that there are no space in Sydney or apartments, and others compared Switzerland with Australia.
No many just said that it is possible to not go hungry with the support of a back yard veggie patch.
I do not have superiority of thinking at all I just posted an example of what people do in their backyards to produce their own food and others come with their legitimate view of their own. My interpretation of some of the posts was that did not understand of what I was trying to say in the original post. Excuse me if I understand them wrong, no arrogance or try to offending not one here :(
You suggested hydroponics and yes it is a way to grown fresh veggies, I did not included it because for a low income earning family would be very hard to have the money to invest in the equipment and maintenance.
There is a lots of ways and examples of urban gardens including the ones in the tall buildings in Singapore.

[Chucaro]

Chucky it must be hard to carry your burdens
If I look out my window I see red rocks Spinifex and Kangaroos sadly the green flowing hills of Tasmania are miniscule part of the Australian environment.
I could eat the Kangaroos but some bleeding heart will tell me I cant because they are endangered.
My 50 Square Metres will result in not much food because its mainly rock and sand.
If you look at a map of Australia its mainly desert that said if it were possible I would eat off the land

I have never said that it can be done by all Australians or that would be practical in all the Australian territory.
It can be done in the cities were there is a lot of space if there is a will and also a lot of rain/storm water that can be better used.
I cannot see why if it can be done in Singapore why cannot be done here.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/540.jpg

It can be done

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/541.jpg

[clubagreenie]

One thing I neglected to mention about the locally funded community garden (I was attempting to type it on the phone) was that a few weeks after the first crop the place was torn up by someone who decided they wanted the veggies they could have for free if they wanted, but instead just ripped the plants up and from then it was downhill as the local vandals saw that as the opportunity to trash the beds.

From there no one wanted to bother stuffing their own money back in without any other support.

Add to other comments, in NSW only something like 12% of the population live further than 150km from the coast and djam said, past 500km from Sydney it starts to turn red and becomes less and less hospitable for growing anything let alone relying on it to sustain your family.

In contrast I remember wandering the fields around Sheffield (Tas) and just seeing rows and rows of beans, peas, all sorts of veg. All grown and destined for multinational companies to be frozen.

[Chucaro]

djam1, how close to your place is this community garden? (http://vimeo.com/62403497#)
I saw it in ABC and they have a page in Facebook
(https://www.facebook.com/pages/Karratha-Community-Garden/152907856328)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think that is the point, yes veges are good, but for many in urban jungles not always possible.

Rooftop gardens are good for those buildings that have flat roofs.
Communal gardens are good where they can exist.
It would be good if body corporates allowed vege gardens.
Vege gardens or vege gardens in pots are great for kids to learn.

But it is not always possible and even then it's not going to feed the whole family 365 days a year.

[djam1]

I am usually about 20 Ks from there it almost looks civilized
Not sure it will stop us from starving though


djam1, how close to your place is this community garden? (http://vimeo.com/62403497#)
I saw it in ABC and they have a page in Facebook
(https://www.facebook.com/pages/Karratha-Community-Garden/152907856328)

[DiscoMick]

I reckon we could grow enough vegies to meet our needs on our little urban block if we dug up the back lawn and got really serious about it, but we both work full-time so we can only devote a certain amount of time to it, so we specialise in what works for us.
Its amazing what can be done if we get serious. I have seen little plots in Asia which feed a whole family.

[gromit]

I give up, if you cannot read form a photo and using a basic knowledge of the benefits (therapeutic, nutrition and health among others ) of having a veggie patch then there is not use to debate.

You are still not reading/understanding my replies.

A photo on it's own is not 'evidence'.
I don't have the time or inclination to research the subject.
I do understand the point you are making (I have a big veggie patch and my 5 young children are involved with growing veggies).

If I take the same picture & dub an Australian flag on it and re-post it will you be happy ?


Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have never said that it can be done by all Australians or that would be practical in all the Australian territory.
It can be done in the cities were there is a lot of space if there is a will and also a lot of rain/storm water that can be better used.
I cannot see why if it can be done in Singapore why cannot be done here.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/540.jpg

It can be done

http://www.jadekerrion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/beirut-roof-garden.jpegMost of those images are landscaping not food production and I suspect photoshopped in.

[Chucaro]

Most of those images are landscaping not food production and I suspect photoshopped in.

I guess that you got my point and I understand what you have said.
I am not good at all in communicate trough this medium :(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I guess that you got my point and I understand what you have said.
I am not good at all in communicate trough this medium :(Have always understood what you're saying! :)

I also suspect there's some green enhancement of these later images as well.

[DiscoMick]

I grew up on a farm where we could have basically fed ourselves totally without going to outside sources if we hadn't chosen to sell most of what we produced, but of course a 400ha. farm is quite different to a 900sq.m. urban block.
However, I still think we could be a lot more self-sufficient if we bothered, as you pointed out.

[PhilipA]

If you track down the skyline picture above to this site
Beirutopia: Could Lebanon's capital become a garden city? - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/09/world/meast/beirut-wonder-forest)

You will see that it is a photoshopped architect's wet dream about of all places Beirut. IT DOES NOT EXIST and probably some is now rubble from the latest round of bombings.

Chucaro, You view of the world often amazes me.

We do not do this barter in modern societies as that is what money is for.

I just witnessed food self sufficiecy in Peru near Puno and the reality is miserable. The farmers eat potatoes, potatoes , and potatoes, sometimes adding a guinea pig or clay for variety.

The difference with the north say in the Sacred Valley near Cusco is striking. There they have communal tractors and are productive enough to sell their produce.
In Australia we can buy fruit and Vegetables all year round at low prices because of farm efficiency and the ability to pay for stuff with money.

Garden self sufficiency is a crock. The only time you have say tomatoes is when they are super cheap at the supermarket, farmers market, organic shop or whatever because they are in season, precisely when the stuff you grow is. I must admit that self seeding organic grown cherry tomatoes from my back yard are yummy for the few days they last.

And if you choose to grow stuff as your sole food source , you will be like the Peruvian farmers, restricted to potatoes, as they are the only things that keep over long periods without sophisticated storage.
Those food plots in Europe are a HOBBY often for retired people , not a serious attempt to grow food.
Regards Philip A

[Chucaro]

Chucaro, You view of the world often amazes me..............................

.................................................. ................................................
Garden self sufficiency is a crock. The only time you have say tomatoes is when they are super cheap at the supermarket, farmers market, organic shop or whatever because they are in season, precisely when the stuff you grow is. I must admit that self seeding organic grown cherry tomatoes from my back yard are yummy for the few days they last.

And if you choose to grow stuff as your sole food source , you will be like the Peruvian farmers, restricted to potatoes, as they are the only things that keep over long periods without sophisticated storage.
Those food plots in Europe are a HOBBY often for retired people , not a serious attempt to grow food.
Regards Philip A

Philip that is your opinion and I respect it but not agree at all.
I agree more with visionary people like Will Allen.
It is a matter to have the will and with it there are way in how to go about.
When you cannot grow all the food for your own needs community gardens are one of the options.
Your example of Peru it is not the best, there are other examples were people cannot grow vegetables but exchange the meat for them and is a win win for both communities.
In a small yard you cannot grow all the food but the savings in no purchasing the vegetables that you produce left you with money to purchase meat, flour, rice, etc.
Back in 1974 in a 600 spm of back yard I used to produce enough vegetables and eggs to complement the food needed for a family of 4.
My low income back then (for health reasons) allowed me to purchase meat and other food that I was unable to produce in my land.
Yes, it can be done, I have done it and thousands of people do it.
You talk about tomatoes, well I have to process them for winter and also give them away together with eggplants, capsicums, curcubits, peas, etc.

[Chucaro]

Philip, here is a video about urban farming in Lima, Peru (http://www.cityfarmer.info/2010/12/04/a-documentary-on-urban-agriculture-and-food-security-in-lima-peru/) the second most drier capital city in the world.
You can see and hearing what the people have to say about growing food in the back yard and open spaces.
When poverty exist humans look for solution, the "put it on the hard basket" or "impossible things shelf" is not an option.
I lived in South America so I have a bit of knowledge of what happens there and urban agriculture it is nothing new.

[PhilipA]

Ah Chucaro, there you go again. Lima may be dry but it has plenty of water from the mountain fed river.
Peru has 31.3% of people under the poverty line and 14% unemployment and a USD 10,700 Per capita income.Even those "employed" often cannot live on their meagre salary as AFAIK there are no minimum wages etc as in Australia.
To offer something done there as an example to Australia to follow is ludicrous. I can fully understand how ladies grow stuff to feed the kids. Only last week I saw ladies selling Gladiolies door to door in Cusco trying to feed the kids.

Rereading your original post leads me to think that you don't know what happens in Australia as you seem to make the point that we need to"educate" our children to grow stuff. Are you aware that many many schools have model farms ? our local Kincumber high School has one.

I cannot see the distinction to what you seem to long for and the current system in Australia. The very poor in Lima for example use their backyards or waste ground to grow stuff, or along the railway line or wherever

In Sydney and all other capitals there are thriving market garden areas where usually immigrants grow stuff. The only difference being in Lima they get it free ( maybe) and in Sydney they pay a lease . Have you ever visited the extensive market gardens around Sydney?

You seem now to blur the distinction between growing for yourself to consume and growing to sell. If you are talking about growing to sell, as in the Lima video then what is the difference to what happens now in Australia, except that the Lima example is very inefficient use of resources.
It all comes down to what return you get for each hour of work. In an advanced economy such as Australia you get maybe $20-no limit per hour and now you must travel many hours each week to get to work , which in many cases leaves little time for tending gardens. In Lima you may get 1 Sol ( 30cents) per half hour as a cyclo driver so maybe you can justify spending time on a plot, but in your video it was wives who seemed to do the work. Try telling your wife in Australia to do that, unless she wears tie dyed caftans.
Chucaro mate. This seems to me to be only one of a series of postings you have made which seem to me to misunderstand how Australia works, and through a South American prism, and where you seem to me to long for some utopian vision which has never even existed in South America!

My view of Peru for example probably differs greatly from yours. I saw the Amazon forest degradation, the slash and burn agriculture in a National Park! The vast inequality between the haves and have nots leading to 30% below the poverty line, the total inefficiency of the government where the road to their most popular tourist attraction has been washed away for 3 years, the almost total destruction of the animal and bird populations of the Amazon( blue macaws now extinct in the wild ), the grinding poverty of the farmers and population in the south, the callous disregard of the many gold miners who have made the Amazon area fish so polluted with mercury that they cannot be eaten.

Yet the people seem happy which is great, but I wonder how long they will look at TV and see another world and remain happy. I can recall saying to my guide how poor the people seemed after visiting a farm where they only ate potatoes,Cuy( guinea pigs) , and clay, had no electricity, no water, no gas, no toilet, one room stone "house" with 5 sleeping in one bed of reeds and skins, and cooking and heating using only sheep dung. His reply was that they are doing OK.

If those are your "visions" for Australia , then good luck I say.
Regards Philip A

[Chucaro]

Philip,you are assuming far to much about what I know about Australia or some overseas countries.
I cannot reply in a proper manner to your post in this medium, it will take far to much time and space.
Regarding South America I know very well Argentina, grand part of Brasil, and Uruguay. I know dozens of small town with populations of 3000 people or less that do not have a supermarket of a shop were they can get fresh vegetables.
People grow their own food and when I was living in one of these town working for John Deere I have to grow my own vegetables. That was in 1977/78 and the people that worked in that town were earning about U$A 1000 a month.
I can go on and on.
We have to agree to disagree.
I guess that people have to go trough of what happens in Cuba when USSR stoped to support them with oil or what happens now in Detroit to find out that urban agriculture as it is called it is possible and works well.
By the way, 30% of the fresh food that it is consumed in La Habana is produced by people in community gardens. It is not an "some utopian vision";)
Please do not try to put my knowledge down, just respect it like I respect yours.

[D110V8D]

Trading and bartering is a dream for some. Very hard to achieve, unfortunately, because basically we don't HAVE to.

Until there is a major disaster or system collapse and we have to grow our own food, trade goods with one another etc etc, we won't. At least not on a big scale anyway.

There is so much waste in our society. That is proof that we westerners aren't poor or anywhere near it, therefore no need to barter/trade.

Each and everyday I head down to the local supermarket, with 4 X 240litre wheelie bins in tow. I pick up 4 X 240 litre wheelie bins full of vegetables and bakery goods being thrown out due to not meeting their criteria to be put on the shelf. I can tell you that if you saw what these guys throw out each and everyday of the week you wouldn't believe it.

I feed this stuff to my pigs, chooks and sheep. (and lately a cow who is fattening up quite nicely :D)

The cost of living in Australia is very high, but the fact that the supermarket can throw out so much good food is proof enough that we Australian's still have enough money to pay for the "primo" stuff they put on the shelves. If we didn't we'd be growing our own a lot more.

Anyway the fact is people won't do until forced (generally speaking). We grow a heap of vegetables here at my place. We've been learning which ones grow better than others, at what times of year etc etc. We also grow and harvest our own sheep, pigs and chooks, for meat.
We don't do this because we have to though. We do it because we want to. For various reasons.

Is that maybe another sign of how good we have it Australia? :D

The only question is for how long?

[DiscoMick]

I sometimes wonder if we realise how well off we are in this country. People in many countries don't have the luxury of throwing away stuff like we do. They reuse it.

For example, I'm reading an excellent book about PNG at the moment and the writer makes the point that a study found that PNG Highlands residents in the subsistence economy can actually have good food supplies to support themselves by working several hours a day in their gardens. It's when they try to move into the cash economy that they're suddenly regarded as poor.

Another example is a book I read recently by someone who ran an NGO in Somalia and was embarrassed that the UN gave them rejected animal food donated by western nations to feed the people. It wasn't considered good enough for animals in the USA and similar countries, but it was considered good enough to feed people in Somalia.

We really are well off in this country.

[Chucaro]

You are spot on Mick, looking at some videos of Detroit make me thinking that no one town is safe if have all the eggs in one basket regardless of how rich is the country.
Necessity is what force as humans to look for Plan B.
Cuba was doing reasonable good up to 1990 when USSR pulled the oil plug. Until then Cuba was sending sugar in exchange for other goods including oil.
Since that time they realized very quickly that they need to produce their own food. Now there are 380000 cubans working in urban farming producing organic food for 30% of the population in La Havana and 60% for all the country.
Yes, when we need we adjust very fast indeed. :)

[Chucaro]

.................................................. .........
We really are well off in this country.

I agree 100% is among the best countries in the world but we cannot take it for granted and "bring our arms down" :)
I would not even considering for a minute go overseas. :)

[wrinklearthur]

Healthy food, is young and still growing when picked, harvested or slaughtered.

As a youngster on our farm it wasn't unusual to have been served a dinner with ten different vegetables and meat, all freshly picked and grown on the property.

Potatoes,
Peas,
Beans,
Carrots,
Pumpkin,
Silver beet,
Swede,
Turnip,
Cauliflower,
Cabbage,

The meat produced on the farm was nearly always lamb, when sorting a pen of lambs for the sale, I would do as my Grandfather had instructed me and keep the best looking lamb from the pen for ourselves to butcher for the table.

Boxes of potatoes and meat were always given away to visiting relatives and taken to other members of our family for Christmas.

Times have changed for farming and the vulnerable monoculture practised today does allow the sole person running today's farm, enough time to work a large farm garden that was once would have been looked after by a couple of older farm hands.
.

[olbod]

Same here Arthur.
I was just thinking the other night that food these days has been altered so much that the flavour has been lost.
I was thinking back to my youth when I grew up on Pop's farm on Cowpasture Road. We had fresh food daily and I can remember my Nan's freshly cooked peas. Alas I shall never taste anything like that again.
Some Sundays we had as many as thirteen family members from far and wide stting at the table for dinner.
Below is a couple of pics, one of Pop standing in acres of peas and us kids collecting the stakes from a field of finished tomatoes. I am the kid in the middle on the left.
The best years of my life.