Paper Filters are rubbish.

[joel0407]

For those of you that think paper filters are as good as a quality oil cotton filter, you are kidding yourselves.

This is only after 5000km and less than 200km of dirt.:mad:

I have now gone to a K&N. This was the first time in over 10 years that I have run a paper filter in a vehicle and this is what I found. I have otherwise run K&N and always found anything south of the filter absolutly spotless and that included plenty of dirt tracks and road.

For those of you that aren't familiar with the filter. This is the engine side of my Discovery 2 filter.

I know some are going to tell me how good their paper filters are and I must have had a bad quality one (2 actually, one Ryco). And then I won't be able to do a proper comparison since I have fitted a snorkel at the same time I have fitted the K&N.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/74.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060423_zps97d7fe89.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/75.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060424_zpscaeef87d.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/76.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060425_zps550884c9.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/77.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060426_zpsc6eff650.jpg.html)

Unhappy Days.

[bell1975]

Not good. I'm about to try a Unifilter in my Td5. I wonder how they compare with the K&N.

[bee utey]

I hope your MAFs like a bit of oil in them...

I used to run Unifilters on my rally cars and loved them but they definitely spread the filter oil around.

[isuzurover]

I am not sure what you are trying to show here? The discolouration on your filter could be any manner of things (e.g. oil mist/vapour).

It is indisputable that even a mediocre* cellulose (paper) filter will have MUCH better capture efficiency than K&N - see the tests I posted a while back.

If you think a K&N is providing better filtration you are fooling yourself.

* e.g. Ryco

[joel0407]

I hope your MAFs like a bit of oil in them...

I used to run Unifilters on my rally cars and loved them but they definitely spread the filter oil around.

I've never had a problem with K&N.

Aren't Unifilters foam? I know from my old dirtbike days that foam filter oil is messy stuff.

As long as you stick to the K&N service kit with cleaning fluid and aerosole spray on oil, it's all good. I just give it a fair soaking with the cleaning fluid and then run water through it in the reverse direction (reverse to the airflow direction), wait for it to dry (over night) and apply the oil evenly.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

I am not sure what you are trying to show here? The discolouration on your filter could be any manner of things (e.g. oil mist/vapour).


Ummm, just wondering how you think oil mist could get here? And water vapor? I'm in Darwin, we haven't seen rain in months and months.

Happy Days.

[isuzurover]

Ummm, just wondering how you think oil mist could get here? And water vapor? I'm in Darwin, we haven't seen rain in months and months.

Happy Days.

Any manner of ways. You could have driven behind someone with a fumey engine?

discolouration on a filter is not a reliable means of determining anything. I can guarantee your K&N will be letting a LOT more dust into your engine.

If you want the best possible filter, try and find a synthetic (polymer) fibre filter. e.g. as fitted OEM to late 90's pajero V6s. Some companies make aftermarket synthetic fibre filters. [and no I am not talking K&N or unifilter here]

[joel0407]

Any manner of ways. You could have driven behind someone with a fumey engine?

And would that smog from a car in front be a light tan/red dirt color like the dirt roads up here? The K&N filter in my WRX had become stained black in the middle from what I would believe would be smog but that was after over 100,000km, not 5000.

I'm guessing you don't know Darwin very well. I mean no offense but we don't sit in traffic sucking exhausts like people do in Sydney.

Happy days

[Tank]

And would that smog from a car in front be a light tan/red dirt color like the dirt roads up here? The K&N filter in my WRX had become stained black in the middle from what I would believe would be smog but that was after over 100,000km, not 5000.

I'm guessing you don't know Darwin very well. I mean no offense but we don't sit in traffic sucking exhausts like people do in Sydney.

Happy days
Hold your beloved K&N filter up to the sunlight and count how many holes you can see the sun through, if you can see the sun then you are looking at the holes that the dirt gets through.
What makes you think a discoloured paper filter means dust is getting through. If you want the good oil on filter types go and have a look at all the road trains and see if they run K&N's, you'll find mostly Donaldson paper filters, like I used to run in my trucks. K&N are crap I dusted an engine in less than 15,000klms from new with a K&N, even after being told they were crap, Regards Frank.

[luke68]

Had a unifilter for a few years. Now i just use the standard oem filter. The reason? Round hole in the middle of the foam after 15000km. I have also lived in darwin and moved back to mel last year. My paper filters look like that. They seem pretty clean. I'd be worried about the look of the other side. See how much crap it has stopped getting into the intake/engine. Rather replace these filters every now and then, instead of crap being sucked into the engine.
Besides its red dust country. Try doing a few trips in the burnoff season and see what colour the filter gets. I had shades of black and red from a trip to mataranka.

[rick130]

Yep, plenty of K&N's in CAT, Komatsu, Volvo off road gear too......














:angel:

[Dougal]

Why are you concerned how the dirty side of the paper filter looks?

It's the other side that matters.

[rick130]

That's the downstream side Dougal.




Without oil testing the OP has no idea what is going on, although I can hazard a pretty good educated guess :D

[Psimpson7]

Why are you concerned how the dirty side of the paper filter looks?

It's the other side that matters.

In at the bottom, out at the top on those filters.

Our D2 had a K+N filter when I bought it. I removed it straight away and went back to genuine paper filters

I am assuming the airbox is closing / sealing properly Joel?

[modman]

Ben,
Cancel those uni degrees, get a refund on all that hecs you paid
Those testing labs will have to be closed through threat of litigation
Sell the man - Hummel and donaldson shares!!!!!!!






Joel,
I have this once in a lifetime opportunity........
There is this bridge for sale in melbourne and I've secured the rights to sell a limited amount of shares.

In the words of Dave can I grab your vin and eng. number just for reference sake. (In case I want to get hold of a high km good condition motor:toilet:)

Dc
(Don't need to look at pirate now, I've had my fix)
(Btw bills posting on pirate again these days- portal rover)

[clubagreenie]

You're in an area of higher humidity. That's going to saturate out anything like paper and make it more likely to stain out with anything lodged in it. And that red stuff will stain. As said, the K&N is all about flow and keeping big bits out of engines that are getting rebuilt every few thousand k's. That's why it's full of holes. Your filter is doing it's job, is there any dust downstream in the inlet tract?

This was done to death quite a while ago and someone here tested it to high degrees and the paper won out every time.

[Redback]

If your paper filter is that dirty after 5000ks and your K&N isn't, then I reckon the paper is doing a better job, imagine how much dirt has gone into the engine using the K&N:o

Better having the dirt in the filter than in your engine, oh and if your not cleaning or changing your filter every 5000ks, then you should be, I do regardless of whether I'm travelling on dirts roads or not.

Baz.

[101 Ron]

I play with industrial vehicles working in all sorts of conditions.
The vehicles could be working anything thing from a sand blasting shop to a dust bowl of a yard/carbon black products/talc products.

All air filters with let a small amount of dirt though them.

The flat type paper air filters they fit in modern vehicles I am not a fan of as they tend to be hard to seal.

The traditional around type Donaldson paper will block up and choke off a motor and let little in the way of dirt though.( easy to change and cost effective)

As stated earlier oil foam air filters........just hold one up to the light.......and some of the poorer quality paper filters too.
They do not block up as quick and therefore do not catch the dirt.
Oil bath will work OK if looked after.(too much hard work for most people)

The best is centrifical type filters.
SK .....a Cummings company make a spinning precleaner device which works in the worst conditions and is self cleaning.

The paper filter shown earlier looks good to me.
The place to really look is not the paper filter , but inside the intake manifold and runners to see how much has gotten though.

Just about every air filter test ever done shows oil foam filters are great for engine performance IE less restriction, but trade that off in less dust/dirt protection

[cjc_td5]

For those of you that think paper filters are as good as a quality oil cotton filter, you are kidding yourselves.

This is only after 5000km and less than 200km of dirt.:mad:

I have now gone to a K&N. This was the first time in over 10 years that I have run a paper filter in a vehicle and this is what I found. I have otherwise run K&N and always found anything south of the filter absolutly spotless and that included plenty of dirt tracks and road.

For those of you that aren't familiar with the filter. This is the engine side of my Discovery 2 filter.

I know some are going to tell me how good their paper filters are and I must have had a bad quality one (2 actually, one Ryco). And then I won't be able to do a proper comparison since I have fitted a snorkel at the same time I have fitted the K&N.

Unhappy Days.

I think your base issue is the poor location of the air intake on a D2, which sucks dusty air from behind the front wheel arch. On a dusty road, I could inundate any air filter in a couple of hundred kms, (sometimes in less than 40kms). I tried paper, unifilter etc at the time, all would be drowned with dirt way too early. I ended up modifying the air intake to draw clean air and have not had a problem since.

Unfortunately you have installed a snorkel so you will not be able to compare filters. Your now clean filter will be everything to do with the snorkel, not the filter.

[joel0407]

I think your base issue is the poor location of the air intake on a D2, which sucks dusty air from behind the front wheel arch. On a dusty road, I could inundate any air filter in a couple of hundred kms, (sometimes in less than 40kms). I tried paper, unifilter etc at the time, all would be drowned with dirt way too early. I ended up modifying the air intake to draw clean air and have not had a problem since.

Unfortunately you have installed a snorkel so you will not be able to compare filters. Your now clean filter will be everything to do with the snorkel, not the filter.

Yeah, I think you're dead right there.

The location where the Disco picked up air was a pretty poor design for an off road vehicle.

I know the K&N filter would have also been packed solid with dirt but what bothers me about the paper filter is once it had it's fill of dirt, it has started letting dirt past. A K&N will fill up too but it will choke the motor rather than let dirt past.

I don't know why these other guys are so set on believing some test with polystyrene

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

In the words of Dave can I grab your vin and eng. number just for reference sake. (In case I want to get hold of a high km good condition motor:toilet:)


I know what you're saying mate. I hate posting things like this that have happened to my motor as anyone can read it and it may turn away potential buyer if I ever sell it. I have decided I will never sell this thing whole as it has cost me a ridiculous amount of money (perpective 12 yr old car) to get it where it is and I'm still going.

I'll take a picture of the intake duct today and post it up later. You'll see why I am so ****ed with paper filters. This is the second paper filter to do this in 10,000km. I noticed the last one and immediatly ordered a K&N and went to SCA to get a new paper one as I thought I could at least protect it a little until the K&N arrive. How wrong I was.

[rick130]

(Btw bills posting on pirate again these days- portal rover)


OT, he's on LR4x4 still too, I didn't realise he'd been given the flick here !!??

[joel0407]

Ben,
Cancel those uni degrees, get a refund on all that hecs you paid
Those testing labs will have to be closed through threat of litigation

And then get out of your class room and put some things into practice. Knowledge needs to be balanced with experience. Neither are any good alone.

What works in a lab doesn't always work in the real world.

Happy Days.

[rick130]

I don't know why these other guys are so set on believing some test with polystyrene

Happy Days.

Because it backs up real world results with used oil analysis over many hundreds of thousands of Km by too many to count, including some of the best and brightest in the filtration business.

I've used K&N and UniFilters, they worked really well on the race engines I used them on, but I know of too many engines dusted from using a K&N in extreme conditions.

There's a reason why all the Ag and mining machinery don't spec K&N's and one thing they are big on is filtration.
As Ben has pointed out, Donaldson, Cummins/Fleetguard/Nelson and Mann-Hummels research budgets exceed K&N's total sales.

We have a bona fide filtration research engineer posting results and sharing real world results, let alone oil test results by myself and others and a number of us have drawn on other oil industry experts that have shared real world testing. ,

If you're happy with your choice that's all that matters, just don't expect to come on here and say an oiled cotton gauze filter filters better than a cellulose fibre one without being challenged.

[isuzutoo-eh]

It's pretty obvious they are all rubbish compared to the oily steel wool Series air sieve. After all, the engines last 50+ years without changing filter elements...

[clubagreenie]

The location where the Disco picked up air was a pretty poor design for an off road vehicle.

I know the K&N filter would have also been packed solid with dirt but what bothers me about the paper filter is once it had it's fill of dirt, it has started letting dirt past. A K&N will fill up too but it will choke the motor rather than let dirt past.


1st point. absolutely.

2nd point. The K&N wouln't have been packed solid, in fact it probably would have appeared less clogged because one particles adhere to the sticky surface because that adhesion is the only method of collection, apart from mechanical collection of larger than aperture particles anything smaller would continue to pass through unimpeded.

I've seen K&N's used in race applications for primary filtration but some teams still use a paper filter behind that. Hell in the Group C days a certain red & white teams old round carbie top filers with the open sides were std elements wrapped in the sponsors branded foam. Un-oiled as to not effect the paper. give it a test with the snorkel and paper, you should see a difference there.

Also be aware that I found (again at supercheap) that some of the D2 filters were generic to all models of flat element D1's & 2's. There are at least 3 different sizes of flat panel elements in that range (2 sizes in D2 alone for V8 & TD5 flat panels) and there was no differentiation between these in part numbers. You also may have ended up with a wrong size.

I took this info to Ryco who admitted they only had a listing for D1 flat panel all and due to feedback had to re-engineer their product to suit plus there was only 1 D2 element. I met up with the sales manager with some 2nd hand sample to set the record straight. And this was less than 2 years ago after I got the wrong size elements in an order.

[rick130]

Better having the dirt in the filter than in your engine, oh and if your not cleaning or changing your filter every 5000ks, then you should be, I do regardless of whether I'm travelling on dirts roads or not.

Baz.

Umm, wrong thinking there Baz, a filter works more efficiently the more it loads, the big Ag/mining stuff use a pressure drop alarm to indicate when to change the element.

I haven't swapped the Fleetguard element in the Tdi for something like 40,000km now, might even be more.

[isuzurover]

...

I don't know why these other guys are so set on believing some test with polystyrene

....

??? Not sure what you are getting at there? PSL (PolyStyrene Latex) particles have been shown to penetrate/rebound in filters much more readily than real "dust" particles. As one former colleague put it they "bounce like golf balls". Again this shows a lack of understanding of filters and aerosol physics on your part.

Pick any type and size of particle you want, the K&N will collect fewer of them.

[Eevo]

to be safe, you should be using air bottles to feed your engine.

[rick130]

to be safe, you should be using air bottles to feed your engine.


Naa, pure oxygen :D












Booooom !
:angel:

[Eevo]

Naa, pure oxygen :D












Booooom !
:angel:

air is mainly nitrogen and oxygen
so we should be running Nitrous oxide :)

[JamesB71]

air is mainly nitrogen and oxygen
so we should be running Nitrous oxide :)

Thats funny.....








.....gas. :p

[Tote]

It's pretty obvious they are all rubbish compared to the oily steel wool Series air sieve. After all, the engines last 50+ years without changing filter elements...

The only thing wrong with oil bath filters is that in modern times people are not prepared to do the service work to keep them clean. How many tractors have you ever seen with dusted engines and a functioning air cleaner?

As a kid I spent many happy:eek: hours cleaning the dirt out of the oil bath on our tractor and washing it in petrol, but the dirt all stayed in the bowl and didnt make it into the engine.

Regards,
Tote

[modman]

The rant is fine
Maybe back it up now with oil analysis
Dc

[JamesB71]

When I was a teenager I had a beetle with a cool oil bath air filter. Always worked fine and minimal maintenance really.

[isuzurover]

Oil Bath air cleaners are better than a K&N for sure, but have the same problem that they would oil the MAF on a new engine. Also, along with the oil mist they create, you have a much greater potential to re-aerosolize the dust you have collected (compared to a fibrous filter).

[Disco Muppet]

Wasting your time Ben. After all, it's not like you ever drive offroad is it? :p :angel:

[1950landy]

At least if the paper filter is geting durty it is doing its job. Years ago when i was a service manager for worked for Leyland & we had to do an engine rebuild we would get Repco in to measure everything , the guy doing the measureing would take one look at the head & pistons on some motors & say sports filter & then when we looked in the box of bits that had been removed to get the motor out we would find the vehicle had foam sports filters . We always found the motors with sports filters required more machining than the ones with paper filters . The best were the paper filters with the oiled foam fited around the out side. :angel: & oil barth filters are the best filters any way.

[isuzurover]

...

I've used K&N and UniFilters, they worked really well on the race engines I used them on, but I know of too many engines dusted from using a K&N in extreme conditions.

...

Race cars as well Rick... I was reliably installed that the 2 MM F1 engine failures in Bahrain (2004???) were due to sand particles from the track bouncing through the K&N...

[Pedro_The_Swift]

been here,
done this,
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/37343-air-filters-cleaning-k-n-test-definitive-answer.html

[clubagreenie]

I believe another class of racing that uses Bahrain has a dispensation for engines used there against the usual restrictions on engines used.

[modman]

I used a paper cone filter on my race car ( lpg turbo rotary rx3) for street:burnrubber: and circuit
For the drags I used a unifilter pod lightly sprayed with oil from the pressure can


That car used to throw me off the track quite randomly, causing dirt storms!!
I've never understood that thing about ambition and ability:)

Anyway reasoning was on dyno we noticed more top end with unifilter lightly oiled over paper cone, but I KNEW and UNDERSTOOD that filtration was poor
I accept that at the dragstrip which is quite clean compared to the circuit which can be quite dusty ( winton sandown )
Btw when my 200tdi air filter nears the end of its life it's sitting in an oil bath:(
Dc

[Davo]

As soon as I saw the first post in this thread last night I thought I'd just sit back and wait . . . :D

[vnx205]

As soon as I saw the first post in this thread last night I thought I'd just sit back and wait . . . :D

Like you, I had my supply of popcorn ready. :)

However, I am waiting for something else as well. I am waiting for someone to explain what the problem is that the photos are intended to illustrate. It looks to me as if the filter has been stained or discoloured. I am waiting for someone to point out why that is or is not a problem.

[Davo]

Yes, a bit of digging around just on this site would have found Ben's filter analysis from a while ago, as well as the other discussions about "ink pad" filters v. paper and so on. If a paper filter has a problem in just a short time, I'd like to know if it really is a problem and if there was anything unusual involved, such as driving behind a roadtrain on the dirt or a filter housing problem or whatever.

There's not much excuse for not doing your research these days - not even because you live up north! :p

[Disco Muppet]

Like you, I had my supply of popcorn ready. :)

However, I am waiting for something else as well. I am waiting for someone to explain what the problem is that the photos are intended to illustrate. It looks to me as if the filter has been stained or discoloured. I am waiting for someone to point out why that is or is not a problem.

The filter looks like it's letting dust through, the side shown is the engine side not the intake side.
Joel is stating that if the engine side is discoloured, then dust is getting through to the engine, and that a K&N oiled filter is better.
Fact is, Td5s have an appallingly bad airbox, most if not all of them let dust past the filter.
Yet, I've heard of perhaps 4 Td5s being dusted, through failure of the box itself or improper filter fitting.
They all do it, and the simple fact of the matter is that the K&N filters are NOT suitable for the task at hand.
Clear things up? :p

[Davo]

Actually, yes. I didn't know about those airboxes but I'm not surprised. I'd be inclined to put it all back together with a new filter and mark the seals with something that would show the dust getting through.

[Tank]

Bought a Filter for my Son's Disco (Rectangular box, flat type) correct #, it was too short and there was no way it was going to seal around it's perimeter.
So back to the parts shop and compared to another aftermarket brand (same #) and this one was almost an inch longer and it fitted perfectly, no dust got around this filter, Regards Frank.

[joel0407]

Yes, a bit of digging around just on this site would have found Ben's filter analysis from a while ago, as well as the other discussions about "ink pad" filters v. paper and so on. If a paper filter has a problem in just a short time, I'd like to know if it really is a problem and if there was anything unusual involved, such as driving behind a roadtrain on the dirt or a filter housing problem or whatever.

There's not much excuse for not doing your research these days - not even because you live up north! :p

Yep, I had red Ben's analysis.

I know so many people like their paper air filters.

Nothing too unusual, not following any vehicles at all actually, however I do have a bull bar and I'm a bit suspicous how the inner guard just ends in front of the front wheel. I'm wondering if the plastic extended foward toward the old plastic bumped before the bull bar was fitted (prior to my ownership).

While I see so many people saying their tests reveal K&N and the like dont filter very well. I dont see so many, if any of people claiming there K&N filter failed in any way. All I'm saying is I now have 2 paper filters that have failed back to back. I took every precaution I could after the first one failed. Now I'll use nothing but K&N because I have used them for years and I wish I had photos of the intake track of some of my previous vehicles with spotless intakes after thousands and thousands of kilometres of dirt roads.

I have red of paper filters poping because they became so dirty the engine basicly sucked the paper so hard it ripped. I'd like to see that happen to a K&N filter.

Happy Days.

[Slunnie]

I have red of paper filters poping because they became so dirty the engine basicly sucked the paper so hard it ripped. I'd like to see that happen to a K&N filter.

Happy Days.

I think this is a key comment about the performance of paper and K&N filters and also a comment on maintenance requirements and repercussions.

[PhilipA]

I remember a few years ago I was camping at Mt Elizabeth Station on the GRR and a bloke in a D2 was camped next to me.
He wandered over with an absolutely clogged paper filter in his hand wondering where he could buy another one.
He wasn't very pleased when I told him that maybe the nearest was Broome and most probably Perth.
I was amazed that someone would start the GRR without a spare filter. So one more vote for maintenance.

I have found that a combination of Unifilter internal sock prefilter at the snorkel head changed every three days or when performance drops keeps the main filter clean, so clean in fact that my main filter was still clean at the end of an 18KK trip which included the GRR, Plenty, Tanami etc.
So I think Unifilters filter well if properly oiled and if used as a prefilter do not clog the MAF. ( That was in a RRC 3.9). I only used the prefilter on dirt roads.
But as an only filter I only use paper, although on carbies a Unifilter is IMHO good, with the caveat oiled thoroughly with the correct tacky Unifilter oil. BTW I also had one fitted to a Nissan Patrol GQ in Thailand and it disintegrated in 3 months from the sulphur in the diesel fumes in Bangkok.
I once bought a K&N, but after reading the tests done in the USA I quickly on sold it.
Regards Philip A

[justinc]

One of the worst designed airboxes in my opinion is the Td5 defender and Disco. I regularly have to use rubber grease around the sealing surface to ensure a decent seal after pulling the old one and seeing the leakage.

Dusting a td5 isn't as easy as it sounds, the oil misted intercooler also traps a fair bit of grit before it gets to the inlet manifold, where again it is adhered to the slop from the EGR valve...

IME dusting a Td5 is the result of a LONG time of poor maintenance, not so much a few hundred km of dirt roads with a clogged/ leaking filter element. Almost every td5 I service requires a MAF clean due to dust and oil mist from the breather system, and YES the crankcase fumes DO travel upstream after the engine is switched off, and will leave a residue in the MAF ready to attract the next lot of dust entering the airbox....at least this appears to be the case IME.

Inspecting the turbo inlet housing is even more an indicator, I have seen some amazing abrading done to the compressor vanes over the years from dust ingress :o

JC

[Slunnie]

How does a donaldson compare to the unifilter for prefiltering when travelling inland?

[djam1]

Like Justin I use rubber grease on the lips of the TD5 Defender airfilter
This enables me to see if it has been sealing since doing this I have had no issues.
I found that Genuine Land Rover filters seem to be the best the ubiquitous Coopers TD5 filter isn't as good in my opinion (in fact I have a pile of the things I won't use).
The use of a Donaldson cyclone arrangement seems to work quite effectively in the bush.
They probably aren't achieving much on the open road though.

[Disco Muppet]

How does a donaldson compare to the unifilter for prefiltering when travelling inland?

The Donaldson snorkel head (from what I've read, been looking into pre-cleaners) is generally preferable as it spins the dirt out so no need to change filters every day or so.
Another option is the SkyClone which Nugget and Chook use, and they're certainly easier to get answer out of than Donaldson. I E-mailed the bloke Nugget used and within a day he'd sent me back a form to fill out regarding the details of the engine I'd be running it conjunction with (no. cylinders, capacity, turbo/NA, etc) so they could pick a compatible filter head, which is not only as effective as the Donaldson if not more so, but it's also fully compatible on road.
I can PM you the contact info if you want :)

[Slunnie]

Legend, thanks Muppet!

[spudfan]

Slightly off topic here, but I drove a 90 turbo diesel for 6 years.The hand book stated that in an emerency it was possible to immerse the air filter (paper in cannister type similar to tdi) in some warm soapy water to clean it then let it dry naturally or in an airing cupboard.I tried this just to see if it worked and it did.
I also tried it with a 200 tdi filter and it worked also. So if you need a clean 200 tdi air filter and have time to soak wash it and let it dry you will be O.K. If you are doubtful try it with an old cannister/paper tdi type filter. You will see the water get dirty as it is soaked. For obvious reasons make sure it is 100% dry before refitting it.
The old 2.5 turbo diesel had a warning gauge thing fitted to the filter housing to let you know if it needed changed or cleaned.
Anyway something to try if you are bored.

[wayne]

The Donaldson snorkel head (from what I've read, been looking into pre-cleaners) is generally preferable as it spins the dirt out so no need to change filters every day or so.
Another option is the SkyClone which Nugget and Chook use, and they're certainly easier to get answer out of than Donaldson. I E-mailed the bloke Nugget used and within a day he'd sent me back a form to fill out regarding the details of the engine I'd be running it conjunction with (no. cylinders, capacity, turbo/NA, etc) so they could pick a compatible filter head, which is not only as effective as the Donaldson if not more so, but it's also fully compatible on road.
I can PM you the contact info if you want :)

Any chance you could PM me the contact info as well
Cheers Wayne

[Reads90]

Well I have always been told never to take K&N style airfilters into dust. And this is by the boys that do the Dakar.

I run ITG filters in my Defenders in town and change over to paper ones when going out back with the dust.

[wyll]

If paper filters are rubbish Then How come all construction and agricultural machines run paper air filters and paper cab filters?

[101 Ron]

If you are fair dinkum about air filtration use a SK type system.
They come in all sizes.
They self clean and stop 99% of the rubbish before the main filter.
Sy-Klone International (http://www.sy-klone.com/mm5/merchant.mvc)

Sy-Klone International: (http://www.sy-klone.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=S9)

I use these these when conditions are likely over load the standard set up quickly.
They are small and cost effective and just leave anything else for dead and you still get to use the standard filter.
They self clean.
They must be sized to the motor in use.
The best part is you pull up and stop the motor and you can hear the thing winding down like a turbine......cool sounding if you like that sort of thing .

[1950landy]

We used to have a company come in & collect all our paper elememt filters for our trucks & air compressor . They would take them away ,wash them . & Test them before returning them. Saved quite a bit of money by doing this . We had two sets of filters for each vehicle .

[joel0407]

If you are fair dinkum about air filtration use a SK type system.
They come in all sizes.
They self clean and stop 99% of the rubbish before the main filter.
Sy-Klone International (http://www.sy-klone.com/mm5/merchant.mvc)

Sy-Klone International: (http://www.sy-klone.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=S9)

I use these these when conditions are likely over load the standard set up quickly.
They are small and cost effective and just leave anything else for dead and you still get to use the standard filter.
They self clean.
They must be sized to the motor in use.
The best part is you pull up and stop the motor and you can hear the thing winding down like a turbine......cool sounding if you like that sort of thing .

Any idea what they're worth mate?

Happy Days.

[1950landy]

I sold my business about 5 years ago & retired , I could check with my old forman his brither inlaw owned the filter cleaning business.
Wayne

[spudboy]

Interesting thread (as always, on this topic).

Did a search for Sy-Klone on eBay but this is all I got :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/236.jpg

I'd be interested to see what the real sy-klones cost too.

[isuzurover]

Some important points to note:

"paper" Filters are not always paper
Some OEM (and aftermarket) filters use polymer (plastic), glass or stainless steel fibres (I am not talking about gauze/mesh here).
e.g. the OEM NK(?) Pajero air filter is polyester (a bit like this one):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/234.jpg

What people call paper filters are cellulose fibre. Most cellulose fibre media is 70+ % eucalypt - but Australia doesn't earn a cent from it...

Cleaning filters
I would NEVER clean a cellulose air filter. The potential for damage to the engine if the filter is pinholed during cleaning is too high.

Polymer or stainless steel media could be cleaned, however.

Air filters should be left in place as long as possible (until pressure drop gets too high). Filters are NOT sieves (oil filters do use sieving as one capture mechanism), so if you change your air filter too frequently you are letting more dust into your engine, rather than less.

Pre-cleaners
Pre-cleaners are great. Cyclonic pre cleaners are generally much better than pre-filters. as well as the brand mentioned, donaldson and many other companies make cyclonic pre-cleaners.
Pre-cleaners if correctly sized will remove 70-90% of the mass of dust before it gets to your filter.

If you look at the air cleaners of most trucks these days they will have lots of mini-cyclones in the air intake, such as this one. Cyclones often work better in parallel like this - over a wider range of inlet flows.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/235.jpg

[JamesB71]

I do a lot of dusty miles. What is the concensus on the best prefilter? Where do they mount?

[goingbush]

just like a Dyson vacuum cleaner

[isuzurover]

I do a lot of dusty miles. What is the concensus on the best prefilter? Where do they mount?

The donaldson top-spin is probably the best retrofit version that does not involve changing your filter box, with the added bonus that it spits the dust out so is 0 maintenance. Most cyclonic pre-cleaners mount on the top of the snorkel.

They will tell you it is designed for "off highway" applications, but that just means dusty environments.

http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000207.pdf

[Tote]

SWMBOs jeep has a Donaldson non spinning precleaner on it, we put it on after the snorkel deposited a couple of cups of water in the airbox after a pretty tame river crossing. It removes a good amount of dirt, the only downside is that it has a bit of induction roar if the window is down.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/toteau/media/IMGP3677_zpse0f8135f.jpg.html)

Regards,
Tote

[101 Ron]

These are not cheap but they work and will fit on top of a normal snorkel tube.
The earlier types have a ball bearing spinner inside that throws out the dirt at very high speed.

Sy-Klone® Series 9000® Precleaner Demo - YouTube


Yes, a few different brands and types.
from the traditional Donaldson plastic bowl precleaner, from memory is something like 70 dollars for a 21/2 inch.
I suspect the SK types to be 250 dollars ? in 21/2....see our Cummings agent.

[clubagreenie]

For something that effective $250- isn't bad.

Or look out for a dead Dyson on a roadside clean up day. I can see it now on top of the D2. HEPA clean air into the engine.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

For those of you that think paper filters are as good as a quality oil cotton filter, you are kidding yourselves.

This is only after 5000km and less than 200km of dirt.:mad:

I have now gone to a K&N. This was the first time in over 10 years that I have run a paper filter in a vehicle and this is what I found. I have otherwise run K&N and always found anything south of the filter absolutly spotless and that included plenty of dirt tracks and road.

For those of you that aren't familiar with the filter. This is the engine side of my Discovery 2 filter.

I know some are going to tell me how good their paper filters are and I must have had a bad quality one (2 actually, one Ryco). And then I won't be able to do a proper comparison since I have fitted a snorkel at the same time I have fitted the K&N.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/74.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060423_zps97d7fe89.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/75.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060424_zpscaeef87d.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/76.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060425_zps550884c9.jpg.html)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/77.jpg (http://s560.photobucket.com/user/joel0407/media/Disco/P1060426_zpsc6eff650.jpg.html)

Unhappy Days.







have you driven through rain with this filter..........?

[joel0407]

have you driven through rain with this filter..........?

Nope. It rained last week (after this filter was changed), that was the first time since late May in think.

Happy Days.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

so i guess that rules out simple staining due to moisture in the intake system.....



is there any reason not to spray some oil onto the paper filter....?
I've noticed some of the original nissan paper filters come pre oiled....but don't know if the material is the same.......

maybe someone on here may know....?

[Tombie]

Follow someone's dust for 10 min then check your intake tract...

It's going to be red :)

Sorry, but I've had the K&N and they are far worse - real world.