cooking oil cheaper than diesel

[ramblingboy42]

I have an opportunity to buy cooking oil cheaper than I can buy diesel. What is the simple additive to lower it's viscosity to best levels. I heard white spirits. anyone give good advice here.....or I might just add the oil at 20:1 or similar mix. td5 in queensland.

[Didge]

Mmhh! I think its a bit more complicated than just that. It looks like previous posts on this subject have been deleted. I understand there is a distilling process following the usual filtering process and Blknight.aus previously (sometime back) listed the costs associated with running waste cooking oil (or are you buying and using it new?). I believe it will ruin various seals in pumps, filters, injectors, etc so the savings you make will, in part, be consumed by these additional costs. Worth considering in the overall washup. :D

[isuzurover]

What will you be running it in??? (edit - missed the td5 at the end)

If it is real unused vegetable oil and not tallow (most commercial frying oil is mainly animal fat), and you have a mechanically injected diesel, then it should start and run on straight oil throughout summer.

Otherwise the simplest option is to convert to a twin tank system where you start on diesel and then switch to veg oil once the oil is warmed up (you need to run a heat exchanger through the oil tank).

You could try blending it with diesel or kero but you are on your own there. I have run the isuzu on a canola/kero/bio mix that I had left over after experiments, only 20-30% canola. Ran a bit rough after a cold start but apart from that was OK.

Bear in mind your SOx emissions and soot will be worse than either diesel or biodiesel.

[dromader driver]

cut with jet A1 and check viscosity for each batch by placing a plastic bottle full in the fridge.

about 60 % jet for a start

;)

[mools]

Plenty on the web about Td5's and Veg. oil. The consensus being - don't do it.

The only reason for doing it would be to save a few pennies - you wont.

Ian.

[Didge]

Good point mools and basically what I was getting at. Probably better financially to spend a few extra hours at work or get a part time job; money in, no mechanical headaches. I'd read earlier about what work is required (especially with used vegetable oil) and it's a bit like home brew; ya gotta love doing it. :)

[superquag]

I'd suggest you look into making biodiesel, but only if you're prepared to do it 101% properly.

There are excise tax implications with homebrew BioD... and getting bulk methanol may be a problem.

- I last bought it at around $225 for 205 litres, a long time ago.

[Bigbjorn]

A former colleague has a rusty old 4 cylinder Land Cruiser hardtop which he uses exclusively for beach or towing his boat. He has a source for new canola oil in 200 litre plastic drums which are very clearly labelled as not fit for human consumption, not to be used in food preparation, not for use in or as stock feed. The drums have a black skull and crossbones on them and he is required to return the empties. He uses the stuff straight into the old toyo. He states it starts and runs as well as it ever did on distillate. His philosophy is that if the stuff stuffs the engine, well, the car is worthless anyhow so just go to the auctions and buy another for a few hundred. He refuses to name the source stating he barely gets enough for his own use.

[Didge]

He's a liar!!! I'll bet he gets more than enough :D

[ramblingboy42]

its brand new cooking oil not used or I would have said that, and the td5 was designed to run on almost any combustible fluid that can be injected ala low enough viscosity,(do your homework first) ffs no I don't need another job to have more money...this forum's advice is up to **** sometimes.....having the availability of the oil I was simply asking what it should be mixed with to get viscosity to good levels.....the td5 will run on it beautifully for its entire life without problems Nigel!....Mools what are you saying? youre giving completely unqualified unfounded advice...don't do it.

[Didge]

Ramblingboy42, chill out man. We're only offering offering up advice based on what we've read ourselves. Yes, you didn't say it was used and I mistakenly assumed it was because that is the oil most people use, because it is cheap or they get it free.
So, considering you think the advice people on this forum give is up the ****, I expect you'll be going elsewhere to get "proper" advice.
This is a community minded forum where we try to offer advice to help each other, not abuse each other,but obviously you think your above it. :2up:

[Blknight.aus]

its brand new cooking oil not used or I would have said that, and the td5 was designed to run on almost any combustible fluid that can be injected ala low enough viscosity,(do your homework first) ffs no I don't need another job to have more money...this forum's advice is up to **** sometimes.....having the availability of the oil I was simply asking what it should be mixed with to get viscosity to good levels.....the td5 will run on it beautifully for its entire life without problems Nigel!....Mools what are you saying? youre giving completely unqualified unfounded advice...don't do it.

I actually concur with mools on it.

I run anything I can get my hands on in the any of the landie diesels upto and including the tdi300

I sat down and punched through some numbers on the cost of various fuel system components VS the cost savings per tank and worked out the mean time between failure rate of various components AND the cost of a worst case scenario failure (mechanicing cost only I didnt factor in the "what if the failure of that component at a certain critical time causes the vehicle to go out of control burst into flames as it careens out of control through an orphanage burning it to the ground prior to coming to a rest in the local cute puppy pound and exploding" type stuff) I also factored in a an additional 2l/100KM to compensate for a degredation in performance caused by accelerated wear on the fuel system.


Ignoring all the cost benefit stuff and going straight to worst case remembering that The td5 runs a 75 PSI fuel rail into injectors that provide the seal between this fuel line and the combustion chamber. Pressure control is achieved at the return end of the fuel rail and the fuel pump can potentially deliver fuel at about 150psi assuming nothing else fails and the pump is delivering to a zero flow condition

The worst case scenario for this is with 2 injectors failing open is the combustion pressure from one cylinder will over pressurize the fuel rail forcing excess fuel into the other cylinder through its open injector. Left long enough this will cause piston failure (if the head doesnt let go first) Ignoring this as the most immediate and likely cause of a runaway engine the piston failure will have combustion gasses blasting into the sump overpressurising the engine, the first place these gasses will exit the engine is through the crankcase ventilation system once that starts happening you will have lubricating oil being fed back into the air intake via the turbocharger air inlet trunk. And theres a runaway.

Whats the cost of replacing a TD5? How quickly can you do it? whats the impact of having your vehicle off of the road for that long?

Given that the cost of TD5 parts is down and diesel is up it might be nearer the balance point if the final 2 parts of the cost/benefit ratio are in your favor (how fast and the impact of not having the vehicle) if you can get enough distance between failures.

Just as an example.... (and remember I dont pay mechanics labour so if you cant do the work yourself you need to factor in those costs)

at current prices in the tdi 300 everytime I refil the tank I save enough money to replace the fuel filter and one injector. If I dont blow any injectors Every 8 tanks I can afford to replace the fuel injector pump with a second hand untested unit and every 14th tank I can replace it with a reco off shelf item.

My current savings on a full tank of fuel is to the tune of $120 for a complete refill. (80ish L ~$1.60/l)

When I did the math for the TD5 the cost for replacing all the injectors, the filter and the fuel pump was a shade over $6k and fuel was around the $1.20/l mark


but as you say, the engine will run bueatifully on whatever you chuck in it for its entire life, but remember that that once bad batch of fuel that sticks a pair of injectors could well mark the end of that life... the same way as a lifetime guarantee on some cheaper tools is only valid till you break the tool then its life is over.

best of luck to you if you decide to run it on vege oil.

[ramblingboy42]

Dave, I'm talking brand new oil here with no solids or contaminates, brand new food grade, suitable for human consumption(if you enjoy drinking cooking oil).....all I want to know is what I should use to lower its viscosity...........

[Blknight.aus]

you shouldnt..

research the breakdown pressure of your oil and then decide if you should still run it.

Its been covered several times before so heres the summary

the injection pressure of a td5 is the same as the upper limit of perfectly made uncontaminated biodiesel, any contamination or imperfections will cause you problems.

That said

For fozzy and the tdis I cut it with

nothing, diesel, avtur, avgas, petrol, metho, white spirit, shellite, engine oil, ATF, turps, kero, paint thinner, pretty much anything I can get that I can make it seem like it might start and run in the test diesel.

[superquag]

Use this link to do further reading.... though the North American market is / was pretty low on diesel engine info.
You may find the answer you want...:eek:


General Blending Discussion - Forum (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9751014871)

From past experience (myself and others) I'd be a bit reticent to 'advise' anyone to use Straight Veggie Oil of ? source in a Landrover td5 engine...:angel:

Any other indirect, mechanically injected Jap engines, - Yes. No hesitation, 'straight', warmed or blended.

[Leigh 110]

just adding my 2 cents...... I'm a forklift mechanic & get plenty of silly operators filling the hydraulic tank with diesel.....i drain the system, put it thru twin 100 micron filters and run in my fork rental fleet, no issues. They are all Toyota forklifts with 1DZ or 2Z 4 cyl 3469cc, no issues... have been doing it for over ten years... on another occasion, I almost ran out of diesel fuel in country vic, had a new 20litre- 32 grade hyd in the back, put half in and got the 50kms to the servo!!!!!!!!! and that was in my 2010 transit!!!!!!!!!!! :o:o:o

[Bigbjorn]

Distillate is a light oil with additives like butane to improve startability, and rust inhibitor. Diesel engines will run on anything that you can get in there and ignite. Finely powdered coal has been used, also corn starch, but I don't recall with what or any success. Racor used to make filtration and blending systems for fleets that cleaned and metered drained oils from your workshops into your bulk fuel supply. The air police apparently banned this because of the possibility of increased pollution from whatever nasties might be in the waste oil.

[isuzurover]

... the td5 was designed to run on almost any combustible fluid that can be injected ala low enough viscosity,...

That is incorrect. It has been reported that TD5s have been tested and can run on AVTUR / Kero. It has then been incorrectly assumed that it can run on these fuels without significant/accelerated wear.

Kero is the standard minimum lubricity (accelerated wear) test fluid for diesel fuel systems.

And that ignores what happens in the combustion chamber.
The attached image shows diesel pistons after ~3000 hrs on diesel, 300 hours on biodiesel and 5 hrs on straight, clean, filtered canola.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Didge]

I think you're wasting your time commenting on this one guys, RR42 obviously doesn't want your advice, hasn't thanked anyone for their inputs and has only insulted some of us who have concurred with your sage advice and is likely to now complain that you've taken the discussion off topic. :angry2:
Very interesting photo isuzurover - thanks :D

[Blknight.aus]

That is incorrect. It has been reported that TD5s have been tested and can run on AVTUR / Kero. It has then been incorrectly assumed that it can run on these fuels without significant/accelerated wear.

Kero is the standard minimum lubricity (accelerated wear) test fluid for diesel fuel systems.

And that ignores what happens in the combustion chamber.
The attached image shows diesel pistons after ~3000 hrs on diesel, 300 hours on biodiesel and 5 hrs on straight, clean, filtered canola.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/bio-fuels/66031d1379985731-cooking-oil-cheaper-than-diesel-piston_different_fuels.jpg


I remember that pic, its been around for a while, If I recall there was a sequence of them new pots, after X hours and then run to failure.

Im almost scared to find out whats on the top of the pots in fozzys old donk and the tdis Ive got going.

[Sitec]

We all have opinions, weather they are righr or wrong... And here's mine..... I collect and filter WVO and run it in several vehicles on it. My tractor lives on it and my 1990 VW Golf Tdi runs it too.. A friend has a well organised processing plant running which is blissfully simple. It involves 6 IBC's and a series of filters and pumps. Stack them up in two stands of three.. The first top IBC is the collection drum. Everything goes in here and stands for 6 months min. This is the most important stage as all the water and crap settles out. 400mm from the bottom of this drum is a 13mm outlet, which flows thru a fine hydraulic gauze filter into the next tank below. At the bottom of the first tank is the messy bit.... and yeah, it stinks but needs to be drained periodically... (water, sludge, dirt, food etc.. burn it or bury it!) The process is repeated again into the lower tank. Here it should be clear and resemble new oil. If so it is pumped into the second top tank via a standard diesel fuel filter and allowed over the course of several weeks to run thru a very fine filter (5 microns) into the 5 th tank. If not, it gets returned to the second tank for filtering and settling again. From the 5th tank it again flows thru another 5 micron filter and into the last tank where it is ready for use. It should look like this..... (RH jar)..

[Sitec]

Once you've gone thru the filtering process and have your bottom IBC full, it can be transferred into a diesel bowser or rain water tank on the outside of the building which disguises the fact its there... From here you are able to complete the final stage of the process... You have a clear 20 litre drum marked on the side at 16 LT and 18 LT. In winter fill your drum to the 16 LT mark and top up with 4 LT of ULP. In summer fill to the 18 LT mark and top up with 2 LT of ULP. You've made your first brew!! Re TD5's... I ran a 130 Td5 for several years but was never game enough to run it on brew. Once the Cummins 6Bt is in the 101 though, it will live on it!! That does not mean to say a Td5 won't run on it, but I was always taught that Bosch pumps are fine, Lucas pumps are a NO as they break the drive shaft, and Common Rail is a no due to the fine tolerances and high pressures involved. My Golf is now at 400000kms and still runs smelling like a chip shop! Incidentally, Australian diesel is some of the poorest quality in the world, so you prob won't harm the Td5 if you did try it.... Even the dirty veg oil looks cleaner than diesel!!

[isuzurover]

...Incidentally, Australian diesel is some of the poorest quality in the world, ...

Sorry, but that is a pile of poo.

Your post are focussed on the cleanliness of WVO, which is only one part, the chemical composition, flame speeds, cetane number, etc, etc is just as important.

Several studies have found that WVO/SVO builds up heavy carbon deposits on injectors and pistons. There are (anecdotal) reports that frequent use of injector cleaner can mitigate against this.

[3-Gees]

G'day all,
As someone who has been making Bio-Diesel for nearly 15 years and having run over 200,k on my fuel , WVO is not a suitable fuel for TD5's in my opinion, even if diluted . The main issue is the glycerin, which is the reason veggie oil is thick!, when burnt in the cylinders, this can leave gums, varnishes and is very difficult to remove. Even diluting WVO does not remove the glycerin and it can still cause problems in the fuel system, plus I don't know how the fuel pump in the TD5 would like the cold oil?? The reason for making Bio- diesel is to remove the glycerin from the oil and replace it with alcohol,(in a simplified term), this makes a fuel that ( if made to standard) is suitable in any diesel engine, depending on component suitably!,On that point, I have found that most aftermarket fuel filters are not suitable for Bio-Diesel due to the lesser quality plastics in the make up, which break down and stick components.
As others have said RB, in older engines you may get away with WVO, but in newer ones like the TD5, I would not try it.
Cheers Gregg;)
P.S I still have fuel available, see my add in the verandah:wasntme: