Making alloy panels, what materials available

[wrinklearthur]

I have some alloy panels to replace on 'HECter' ( 86" ).

To make some panels from scratch, what is the material that I should be looking for which will match the original 'Birmabright' ?

Would 'altering' the composition of the alloy be considered heretical to the holy order?
.

[mfc]

Not by me lol.... I've seen inner tubs that have been straitened out with aluminium and silkaflex... Also tailgates . And ifi recall correctly there's a post on lrsoc on rebuilding a tub with silkaflex alum and rivets ..... Ill see if I can track down the article I have in a pommy magazine bout tub panels....

[mfc]

making body panels
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showpost.php?p=1885069...... Mike( series one buff) has done the inner tub and tailgate I was talking bout......
Can't see the pedantics spotting aluminium over the original with paint on it ( given its the same thickness) lol

[wrinklearthur]

---- Can't see the pedantics spotting aluminium over the original with paint on it ( given its the same thickness)

I am looking at the ease of working the material, rather than risking a metallurgists doing some tests and finding out the material used was nonconformant.

But then, I don't want to be rated a failure at compiling with the exacting requirement of the supreme rivet counter's quality standards. :p
.

[mfc]

They will be focusing on the rivets and galv .... Won't notice aluminium sheet metal lol and I'd recon new sheet aloy will be easier to work

[gromit]

Arthur,

If you can find material with a similar 7% Magnesium 1% Manganese content as Birmabright it should be the same workability & corrosion resistance.

Birmabright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Birmabright. (http://www.southerncrossmetalrecyclers.com.au/scrap/birmabright.html)

You also need to find out what state the sheet is when supplied ie. half hard, 3/4 hard etc. because this will also affect it's workability (unless you're going to anneal it).

Have a look on the Peach & Tommasini DVD's because they mention a grade of Al that they use (but that is for slightly more 'curvy' panels than you'll find on a Land Rover).

Some specs here
http://www.ullrichmetals.com.au/rolled/rpalloy.php



Colin

[Lotz-A-Landies]

making body panels
... Can't see the pedantics spotting aluminium over the original with paint on it ( given its the same thickness) lolAn enthusiast from Canberra who many will know and who has made many replacement panels for 80" including whole tubs exported to the UK, has very strong opinions about spot welding old aluminium to new stock.

Firstly the old metal has to be scrupulously clean and free of all corrosion, impurities and paint and even then the spots frequently fail to bond together. The old material is also usually stress hardened and tends to fracture and fail within a short period after repair. After numerous less than satisfactory results, he simply refuses to use old metal.

If you want to fit new elements to old panels, the use of sikkaflex and rivets is the recommended process.

[isuzurover]

5052 is probably one of the best alloys to use. It is readily available, has good properties for the application and most importantly bends well.

5356 Almg5 is the welding wire to use. As mentioned it is often easier to use sikaflex and rivets. However you can plug weld the holes where you drilled out the rivets - make sure you put a block of brass on the other side to ensure you don't blow holes through.

High magnesium alloys like birmabright are often harder to form/bend and may be more prone to stress fractures. e.g. modern versions like 5083 and 5086.

[andy_d110]

An enthusiast from Canberra who many will know and who has made many replacement panels for 80" including whole tubs exported to the UK, has very strong opinions about spot welding old aluminium to new stock.

Firstly the old metal has to be scrupulously clean and free of all corrosion, impurities and paint and even then the spots frequently fail to bond together. The old material is also usually stress hardened and tends to fracture and fail within a short period after repair. After numerous less than satisfactory results, he simply refuses to use old metal.

If you want to fit new elements to old panels, the use of sikkaflex and rivets is the recommended process.

Diana,

Do you have some contact details for this enthusiast? I need some tips and techniques for my tub repair.

[wrinklearthur]

By annealing Aluminium and related Alloy's is one way of matching new to old material ( of the same metallurgical composition ) before spot welding.
I believe that the LPG torches made by Primus, etc, have working temperatures that are close to what is needed to anneal Aluminium. I will be doing a check on this and then post up what I have found, on here.

That chart is terrific Colin, it has saved me a lot of shoe leather already, so thanks for that.

I have reservations about using silicon based jointing materials, unless the two metals have been scrupulously cleaned and also have a constant mating surface, with that being done, then you may as well spot weld them.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...

I have reservations about using silicon based jointing materials, unless the two metals have been scrupulously cleaned and also have a constant mating surface, with that being done, then you may as well spot weld them.
.Arthur

Sikaflex is an air cure permanent polyurethane bond, its what they stick some cars and aeroplanes together with, but yes the surfaces need to be cleaned of paint layers otherwise the Sikaflex will bond permanently to the paint but not the aluminium underneath. A wire wheel is sufficient to prepare the surfaces for bonding.

The automotive adhesives/sealants are Sikaflex 227 and 255 Extra+

[mfc]

I think mike ( series one buff). Had used/ try'd or had info on the mock spot weld technique .... Or I have it in a magazine... Ill look today authur
Re the welding there's a low temp alloy welding system that was talked about by incisor and others a while ago ... Uses primus type temps lower than alloys melting and distortion point dura something
....Duraweld Australia on google....

[gromit]

Re the welding there's a low temp alloy welding system that was talked about by incisor and others a while ago ... Uses primus type temps lower than alloys melting and distortion point dura something

I've never used the low temperature alloy brazing/soldering system. There always used to be someone at an autojumble (swap meet) in the UK repairing a thermostat housing as a demo.
I purchased some, was never confident with using it then my Father-in-Law gave me a heap of it, he too wasn't really convinced.

Something like this Dura Fix Aluminum Welding Aluminum Brazing Aluminum Soldering & Repair Rod is not sold on Ebay US or Amazon (http://durafix.com/)

From memory you melted a puddle of it onto the piece you're repairing then with a st/st wire through the molten puddle you scratched off the surface oxidation and hopefully it bonded.

I haven't spot welded aluminium but it was interesting when I asked a couple of customers who have spot welders recently they weren't interested in trying to spot weld aluminium. I'm guessing it's not quite as simple as steel.

A TIG to weld aluminium is expensive (even the cheap ones) because you need HF start.
I'm considering an oxy set and lots of practice.......


Colin

[chazza]

Spot-welding aluminium requires a very large capacity welder (3-phase), which limits most of us from ever trying :(

Sikaflex works superbly and will not let go! Even Rover's spot-welds let go sometimes.

An alternative to a spot-weld, is to do a plug-weld using a TIG, which can look a bit like the real thing but control of panel distortion needs to be considered,

Cheers Charlie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Anyone considering using Sikaflex polyurethane adhesives should be aware that you will likely only get one go with the tube. Most often the remains will cure inside the tube even in a short period and certainly overnight.

The rule of thumb is collect all the prepared jobs together ready for a single session. Use disposable gloves changing frequently when contaminated, have plenty of lint-free disposable rags available (and a bin) and maybe get all your mates together with their Sikaflex jobs.

As Arthur suggests (below) it is important that the surfaces to be joined are dry, don't do the job on rainy days or early in the morning while dew is still on the ground.

[wrinklearthur]

Spot-welding aluminium requires a very large capacity welder (3-phase), which limits most of us from ever trying
I happen to have a 'pie heater' three phase AC welder and was under the impression that a suitable spot welder for welding aluminium was a large current low DC voltage device.


Sikaflex works superbly and will not let go! Even Rover's spot-welds let go sometimes.
I have spent more time than I care to think about, removing Sikaflex when confronted with the stuff on fishing boats when I was installing satellite telephones, it sticks like anything in some spots, but then moisture will find it's way inbetween the Sikaflex and the Aluminium and it will then wick it's way right along a joint


An alternative to a spot-weld, is to do a plug-weld using a TIG, which can look a bit like the real thing but control of panel distortion needs to be considered
Hi Charlie

With that three phase welder I have, it's possible to adapt a TIG welder handset to it, but I believe for Aluminium the welding voltage needs to be DC.
.

[wrinklearthur]

Anyone considering using Sikaflex polyurethane adhesives should be aware that you will likely only get one go with the tube. Most often the remains will cure inside the tube even in a short period and certainly overnight.

The rule of thumb is collect all the prepared jobs together ready for a single session. Use disposable gloves changing frequently when contaminated, have plenty of lint-free disposable rags available (and a bin) and maybe get all your mates together with their Sikaflex jobs.

Thanks Diana

I have thrown out unused unopened tubes that I had ready for a job -$$$$$ , the unopened tube had gone off in the time I had it waiting :mad:.

So when preparing for a job, get ready first, then go to buy only what is needed and keep your receipt as the shelf life of the stuff starts in the warehouse and not just when you get it home.
.

[wrinklearthur]

This info followed a link on 'Show us your Deefers !'.

Sheet Plate | Aluminium Warehouse (http://aluminiumwarehouse.com.au/category/sheet-plate/)

ph: (02) 9907 2222
2 Wattle Rd, Cnr Harbord Rd, Brookvale NSW 2100
© Copyright Aluminium Warehouse
website by fazedesigns

[gromit]

With that three phase welder I have, it's possible to adapt a TIG welder handset to it, but I believe for Aluminium the welding voltage needs to be DC.
.

You also need High Frequency start, you cannot scratch start the arc with TIG (so I'm told).
A cheap Chinese TIG for aluminium is around $1K.
I'm told they either work OK or fail quickly. So you might go through a few to get a good one !!!


Resistance welding handbook here :-
http://au.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oGkme1dx1SPQwAGhML5gt.;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MXQ2anN sBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTYEY29sbwNzazEEdnRpZANBVUMwMDJfN zE-/SIG=12156b0g9/EXP=1377691701/**http%3a//www.millerwelds.com/pdf/Resistance.pdf

Seems that it's the high current needed to spot weld aluminium (compared to mild steel) that is the issue.


Colin

[mfc]

now im certain ive seen an article or youtube video where a tig welder was used with a brass block behind to replicate spot welds......
ive got vibration cracks on the firewall edge of my front wings{loose bolts n strut i recon} ime toying with silkaflexing a folded stiffening plate behind and clamping without riverting it.....im not shure of the durability of durawld rods and the new metal old metal causing the old to fail{as mentioned by dianna above}
perhaps duraweld{ durafix not duraweld } then reinforce w silkaflex

[klonk]

Thanks Diana

I have thrown out unused unopened tubes that I had ready for a job -$$$$$ , the unopened tube had gone off in the time I had it waiting :mad:.



Simple to solve, seal up the nozzel the best you can when finished, then place in the freezer . The moisture is solid in there. We do that at work, lasts for ages. But needs about an hour to thaw before use.

[magilla]

Metal Shaping with Lazze: Spot Weld Aluminum with a 220V Welder - YouTube

[chazza]

Hi Charlie

With that three phase welder I have, it's possible to adapt a TIG welder handset to it, but I believe for Aluminium the welding voltage needs to be DC.
.

Yes DC is needed - new TIG's have a rectifier inside them to convert the AC to DC.

Do you know anyone with a Tractor Pack Lincoln welder - the sort that runs off the PTO - by swapping the earth and live-lead, the polarity gets reversed apparently and it can weld aluminium. I tried once but I must have done something wrong because I couldn't get a stable arc.

Perhaps your only choice is to use an oxy-set to do plug-welds, but in any case practise on an old panel first and control the distortion. I use a paper mulch made out of torn up newspaper about 20mm square, soaked in water and then placed either side of a join about 25mm away,

Cheers Charlie

[brendanm]

Just saw the post. I know you are in the middle of looking at welders. I have posted a few pictures in the Galvanising thread. The material I used was 2mm aluminium sheet as this is what was available and local. Similar to the thinking 60 years ago when these vehicles were made.
The material is thicker than original and I figure it will compensate for any difference in material composition if required.
One piece of advice I would offer is to take any of the reinforcing pieces off to reuse. This could save a lot of manufacturing of bit that are ok.
The main components made from this so far are inner guards where the originals were ripped and fatigued. The tub skins due to fatigue and dints. The door skins due to electroloisis and the tailgate if that is what you could call the bit of bent metal that tried to fill the gap at the rear of the tub.
On the welding front I got a mate to tig weld some of the flat panels on for me thinking there would be less distortion. Glad I did as you could see any hair line cracks highlight under the heat of the welder, more so than when I mig welded parts earlier.