legal hi/low beam hid

[benji]

According to this, h.i.d. lights are legal on the p38s. ..
4WD Modification Legalities (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-legalities/4wd-modification-legalities)

[AlvinD2a]

According to this, h.i.d. lights are legal on the p38s. ..
4WD Modification Legalities (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-legalities/4wd-modification-legalities)

Cheers for the link. I have high beam replace with HID lighting, still pending whether to change my lo beam or get a Narva 6k H7 for my D2.

[mtb_gary]

According to this, h.i.d. lights are legal on the p38s. ..
4WD Modification Legalities (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-legalities/4wd-modification-legalities)

Interesting research article. Yet another plus for the air suspension :D. For those who have done the change to coils it does not appear to be legal to change to HID.

Gary

[p38arover]

Does the base model P38A have headlight washers?

[redandy3575]

According to this, h.i.d. lights are legal on the p38s. ..
4WD Modification Legalities (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-legalities/4wd-modification-legalities)

I wouldn't count on that article as a bible?

I did order a HID kit to replace the normal headlamp, but cancelled after talking to my insurance company. If its not a standard feature headlamp, insurance may void claims. If you read the individual state laws you'll find in Vic they're actually illegal unless standard on the vehicles. It's a grey area, most cops couldn't be bothered in booking minor headlamp impairment, but if blatant obvious, then you can be a magnet for a fine.

I settled for a good set of Narva Artic 50 globes which alone made a massive difference.

[Pete38]

Does the base model P38A have headlight washers?

Nah my povo pack 2000 don't have headlight washers.. Hmm. Might need to source some if I decide to go HID.

[MR LR]

Can't have HID without load leveling...

So my '83 RRC is fine, but the D2 still needs its way lit by candles.

Oh the law is an amazing achievement of incompetence.

[Eevo]

If you read the individual state laws you'll find in Vic they're actually illegal unless standard on the vehicles..

same in SA, its a major defect plus fine

[33chinacars]

The 3 major items to determine if HID are legal on your car if not fitted from the factory.
1: Self leveling
2: Headlight washers
3: Reflectors must be designed for HID. ( This will cancel most cars out )
Any deviation from this will make your car unroadworthy & void insurance.
Fit them at your own peril

[p38arover]

Can't have HID without load leveling...

So my '83 RRC is fine, but the D2 still needs its way lit by candles.

Oh the law is an amazing achievement of incompetence.

I disagree. I think it's sensible in this case.

Don't some D2 models have headlight levelling or is that only in Europe?

[Pete38]

I disagree. I think it's sensible in this case.

Don't some D2 models have headlight levelling or is that only in Europe?

I think the 7 seat ones had it in the rear at minimum

[p38arover]

I'm pretty sure it was referenced in my D1 owners manual but it wasn't fitted on my model.

[redandy3575]

The 3 major items to determine if HID are legal on your car if not fitted from the factory.
1: Self leveling
2: Headlight washers
3: Reflectors must be designed for HID. ( This will cancel most cars out )
Any deviation from this will make your car unroadworthy & void insurance.
Fit them at your own peril

The P38 really falls in 2 out of the 3 categories, so that technically rules them out. P38's are pre- HID designed.

I wouldn't put them on mine purely for the fact that it annoys other motorists, and to be fair, you have to think about them too.

[wayneg]

I have them on mine and have never been flashed by oncoming traffic. I paid particular attention to aligning them correctly and even had a mate drive in front to report if they were annoying, all good. Anyone thinking of doing this most kits will show a headlamp bulb failure warning, mine dont.
I personally believe if these kits are used on headlamps with proper lenses they are fine if correctly aligned , its when they are fitted to the clear perspex lamps on many modern cars they are a nuisance.

[redandy3575]

I have them on mine and have never been flashed by oncoming traffic. I paid particular attention to aligning them correctly and even had a mate drive in front to report if they were annoying, all good. Anyone thinking of doing this most kits will show a headlamp bulb failure warning, mine dont.
I personally believe if these kits are used on headlamps with proper lenses they are fine if correctly aligned , its when they are fitted to the clear perspex lamps on many modern cars they are a nuisance.

You must be one of those very few that installs them properly, still doesn't make them legal though. If a tight bum copper with nothing else better to do wants to get technical, they can ( in Victoria anyway ) slap a defect sticker on the car.

Most I've seen on not only p38s but others like Landcruisers, Pootrols, Early pajeros not to mention older Commodores and falcons are way too bright, you wonder how they get away with it.

[benji]

Just read through the entire vsi regarding hid lights.

It does mention a vehicle leveling system, and the light washing stuff.

The reflector needs to spread the light in a prescribed way. It seems pretty close to the standard light spread . There is mention of the rear of the reflector being different, but only to accomodate the ballast. As fair as I could see there was no prescription of light spread from the driving lights.

To get a relector certified they need 10 or so reflectors and a few lenses also - what a load of....

I've allready got the top phillips h4s, so a 55wat hid kit in the driving lights will give a good spread and the same kit in the two hella 4000 pencil beams should be good for a kilometre. Around town hid really isn't needed anyhow. I've just got to be mindfull of dipping the lights quickly.

ComLaw Legislative Instruments - Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 50/00 - Front Fog Lamps) 2006 (ADR 50/00) (http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/asmade/bydate/63CCDFA523412F99CA2571A700083051?OpenDocument)

[joel0407]

Just read through the entire vsi regarding hid lights.

It does mention a vehicle leveling system, and the light washing stuff.

The reflector needs to spread the light in a prescribed way. It seems pretty close to the standard light spread . There is mention of the rear of the reflector being different, but only to accomodate the ballast. As fair as I could see there was no prescription of light spread from the driving lights.

To get a relector certified they need 10 or so reflectors and a few lenses also - what a load of....

I've allready got the top phillips h4s, so a 55wat hid kit in the driving lights will give a good spread and the same kit in the two hella 4000 pencil beams should be good for a kilometre. Around town hid really isn't needed anyhow. I've just got to be mindfull of dipping the lights quickly.

ComLaw Legislative Instruments - Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 50/00 - Front Fog Lamps) 2006 (ADR 50/00) (http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/asmade/bydate/63CCDFA523412F99CA2571A700083051?OpenDocument)

You said just about exactly as I was going to, saved me typing it.

I have just purchased the Hella 4000 compacts for my Skoda Yeti and a HID kit is on the way for them. I'll get the full size 4000 for the Disco in a month or so.

HID kits really transform driving lights. I'm not experienced enough with LED light bars to say they are better or worse but for me they are the best addition for night driving.

I have not yet seen a HID kit for low beam that will work effectivly without making the lights dazelling to on coming traffic. The bulbs are just too different of shape and it casues the light to be reflected wrong.

Happy Days.

[rc42]

Another document with information for vehicle modification in Queensland.
Not too much information about lighting but it does state that any replacement bulb must carry the same approval markings as the manufacturer's original, since these marks don't appear on after market HID kits the implication is that there is no such thing as a legal HID conversion unless all original manufacturer components are used.

http://www.seatsafe.com.au/documents/pdf_modification_motor_vehicles2.pdf


However, if your lights don't dazzle other road users and don't seem overly bright you're unlikely to attract the attention of police but they'll almost certainly never be 'legal'

[harlie]

....

I have not yet seen a HID kit for low beam that will work effectivly without making the lights dazelling to on coming traffic. The bulbs are just too different of shape and it casues the light to be reflected wrong.

Happy Days.

This is exactly the point. The HID globe has a much larger (and different position) point of light source. This means that the reflector designed for a halogen globe will not control light from a HID correctly.

As an experiment, change one light. Park in front of a wall and cover one light at a time, compare the two, the HID will throw heaps of light above the cut off line, no mater how far you point it down.

Every time one of these morons comes up behind me I have a shadow of my head on the roof lining above the windscreen, never get that with either halogen lights or factory HIDs in the car behind. And I'm in a L322, can only imagine being in a small car. Doesn’t worry me much from behind as the 3 auto dimming mirrors go very dark, once again they don’t for factory lights. But oncoming traffic is just plain dangerous especially on country highways, and to comment that they are all fine because no one flashes – get real. I don’t flash because a. that just affects the other cars that the moron is following and b because I’m too busy trying to actually see the road and c anyone stupid enough to think that there is no affect to others is not going to get any message by flashing anyway.

Just have a look at how a HID low beam conversion lights up the interier of the car in front, something that is easy to see at the lights in town, my factory HIDs don’t, there is a clear cut off line just below the rear screen of a small car.

[wayneg]

Every time one of these morons comes up behind me I have a shadow of my head on the roof lining above the windscreen, never get that with either halogen lights or factory HIDs in the car behind.

Well the condition of ALL cars in Queensland must be superb, no misaligned lights? no overloading, no bad rear springs. Ever been followed by a P38 with Hids?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHQ2oO-NMJ8

[harlie]

No, they are not superb, but a stray halogen is no where near as intrusive as stray HID, it’s so much brighter – controlled it’s no issue, that’s why there is strict legislation.

That Video just adds to my point - How many HID conversions are done in the manner shown? (which I’ll add is great and would attract no complaints) He achieves a factory quality cutoff because he has installed the projector tube and lens designed for the HID globe. Show one of the cheap Chinese H4 conversions that every one is doing. – And yes, I passed a p38a last night with a crap conversion, just north of Gympie that had over glare illuminating the roof of my truck - there is also an L322 near me with a conversion that does the same - stopped at the lights beside him a while back, it iluminates all the headrests in the car infront and he probably thinks its cool.

That projector conversion with no levelling would be exponentially better than a H4 or H7 HID shoved in a halogen fitting – which is what everyone is doing.

And for what it’s worth, factory HID lights have self levelling lights, not just suspension. Give the rangie a boot full from an intersection and the nose rises – the lights continually adjust so they don’t.

This is not a grey area - It is an illegal conversion, the article linked to by the OP is rubbish (check state authorities), for starters, head lights must have ADR approval stamps and fitted with approved globes, rarely will anyone get booked, but expect some questions if you’re in an accident, especially if another party complains.

* Halogen lamps and their globes must comply with ADRs 46 and 51, while HID lamps and their globes must comply with a different set of requirements within ADRs 77 and 78. Interchanging globe types (such as putting HID globes into a lamp designed for a halogen globe) prevents continued compliance of the lamp/globe assembly.
* ADR 13 requires that all vehicles fitted with headlamps (including HID) producing over 2,000 lumens (a measure of light output) have a self-levelling system and headlight washers.

[33chinacars]

Well said Harlie

[DoubleChevron]

Don't do it, that's what I say. There's nothing more hated on the roads than towering 4wds blinding you with crappy lights (there lights are at the eye heigh of a lot of car drivers). Do whatever you like with high beam (as it should be dipped if there is on-coming traffic) but not low beams. Even if the cuttoff is perfect.... How often do you see even cars with factory HID's "Blasting" you with intense light as they go over bumps.

Low beam is only ever going to light up a tiny area infront of the car. It's matters little how bright that patch of ground is, as you should be trying to scope into the distance either way. If your staring at that tiny patch of light infront of the car, your going to hit anything that suddenly "appears" it in either way.

Don't get me started on the morons that drive everywhere with fashion ... er, I mean "fog" lights on. Especially the super extra bright crappy aftermarket foglights, poorly aligned on wet roads (obviously when it's not foggy).

All my cars self level ... I have no intention of ever putting HID's in them though :)

seeya,
Shane L.

[Eevo]

Don't get me started on the morons that drive everywhere with fashion ... er, I mean "fog" lights on.

i drive around with my factory fitted fog lights on. studies have shown its gives you a greater chance of being seen.

its why its now mandate in europe that headlights on all the time, and in aust, on motorbikes, they must be on all the time.

[101RRS]

i drive around with my factory fitted fog lights on.

Is illegal in all states to drive with them on in good weather - unfortunately many blind other drivers as well as misaligned HIDs do.

If you want to be seen just drive with your lights on low beam or get proper DRLs.

Garry

[Eevo]

Is illegal in all states to drive with them on in good weather - unfortunately many blind other drivers as well as misaligned HIDs do.

i realise this but i consider my safety above the law. it doesnt blind drivers.

same with the HID's in my 200sx, illegal yes, blinding no (i got an alignment check to make sure). the more people can see and avoid me, the better.

[DoubleChevron]

i realise this but i consider my safety above the law. it doesnt blind drivers.

same with the HID's in my 200sx, illegal yes, blinding no (i got an alignment check to make sure). the more people can see and avoid me, the better.

Just use low beam, it doesn't dazzle. The idea of a fog light is to throw a very bright light just under the nose of the car.... They will make a very "bright" patch on the road, but do bugger all for aiding you ability to see (unless your crawling along at < 15km/h in fog so thick you can't see the end of the bonnet. Even then on a 4wd they'll be bloody near useless as they'll be mounted far to high off the ground. There a reason why the foglights are always broken on my cars ... By design there pretty much the lowest point at the front of the car :( ).

Low beam is much more effective for allowing others to see you.... Much better than fashion lights. Has anyone noticed how many morons drive around these days with one blown fashion light and one blown lowbeam :o It's like there that stupid they don't know they have:
a) foglights on ... one of which is blown
b) headlight out.

I really do see absolutely no point in trying to make low beam "really bright". Unless your travelling at less than 20km/h it's unlikely you'll stop if you "see" something due to the brighter light either way :cool:

If low beam seams really bad, a good first check would be the voltage at your globes (do the P38's have headlight relays ?) and the globes earth points. You can get a spectacular increase in light by fitting relays if there isn't close too 14volts at the lights with the engine running.

seyea,
Shane L.

[Eevo]

Just use low beam, it doesn't dazzle. The idea of a fog light is to throw a very bright light just under the nose of the car.... They will make a very "bright" patch on the road, but do bugger all for aiding you ability to see


i use them in addition to low beam.
its not about my ability to see the road. its about people seeing me!

[DoubleChevron]

i use them in addition to low beam.
its not about my ability to see the road. its about people seeing me!

I can understand that ..... bloody huge 4wds are really hard to see.... I think you should fit some strobe light too :Rolling: :Rolling: :Rolling:

I'm always worried when I'm hurtling down the road in my bright red Rangie that no-one will see me ..................... :twisted: .............. Oh hang on..... Imagine how terrified I am when I'm driving the Citroen 2cv that no-one will see me ... or worse a motorbike :wasntme:

seeya,
Shane L.

[Eevo]

I can understand that ..... bloody huge 4wds are really hard to see.... I think you should fit some strobe light too :Rolling: :Rolling: :Rolling:


i dont have HIV's in my 4wd yet.

strobe light.... i like that idea.
what about rotating red and blue ones? that will get me noticed?

[Pete38]

i dont have HIV's in my 4wd yet.

strobe light.... i like that idea.
what about rotating red and blue ones? that will get me noticed?

Maybe some spinners with LED's on them as well just to get noticed that little bit more. Angled down of coarse :p

[AlvinD2a]

According to this, h.i.d. lights are legal on the p38s. ..
4WD Modification Legalities (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-legalities/4wd-modification-legalities)

Well I'm have just put myself into trouble now... Luckily I only have it on hi-beam where I generally use it only for offload. Guess I will change my low beam with Narva globes from now onwards.

I'm really glad that you post this link here, I never thought is an issue at all.

[redandy3575]

Well I'm have just put myself into trouble now... Luckily I only have it on hi-beam where I generally use it only for offload. Guess I will change my low beam with Narva globes from now onwards.

I'm really glad that you post this link here, I never thought is an issue at all.

Give the Narva H4 Artic 50 a go. Comes in a pack with two main globes and two parkers. Every now and then Supercheap or Autobarn have specials on them. I love em, just perfect for the Rangie without going overboard.

[joel0407]

I'm a big dan of Osram bulbs. Osram make a lot of bulbs for Hella. I dont know if they are the same spec but I have opened bubble packs of Hella bulbs and the base is stamped with Osram.

Now I buy my Osram Halogen bulbs from the UK at much cheaper prices than Hella, Narva or Philips.

I think Philips and Narva are rubbish. I've had a few and their higher % plus bulbs have a much shorter life than the equivilent Plus % Osram bulbs.

Happy days.

[redandy3575]

Just use low beam, it doesn't dazzle. The idea of a fog light is to throw a very bright light just under the nose of the car.... They will make a very "bright" patch on the road, but do bugger all for aiding you ability to see (unless your crawling along at < 15km/h in fog so thick you can't see the end of the bonnet. Even then on a 4wd they'll be bloody near useless as they'll be mounted far to high off the ground. There a reason why the foglights are always broken on my cars ... By design there pretty much the lowest point at the front of the car :( ).

Low beam is much more effective for allowing others to see you.... Much better than fashion lights. Has anyone noticed how many morons drive around these days with one blown fashion light and one blown lowbeam :o It's like there that stupid they don't know they have:
a) foglights on ... one of which is blown
b) headlight out.

I really do see absolutely no point in trying to make low beam "really bright". Unless your travelling at less than 20km/h it's unlikely you'll stop if you "see" something due to the brighter light either way :cool:

If low beam seams really bad, a good first check would be the voltage at your globes (do the P38's have headlight relays ?) and the globes earth points. You can get a spectacular increase in light by fitting relays if there isn't close too 14volts at the lights with the engine running.

seyea,
Shane L.

I would have to agree and disagree with you there.

Yes I agree that having both fog lights and headlights on at the same time is unesessary in the city where there's plenty of street lighting around etc. But are a better alternative when used in the wet during rain ( where lights are supposed to be on anyway ), also in foggy or darkened conditions during the daylight they work a treat, so there is a reason for why they are installed on vehicles.

Now as far as legality in fog lights is concerned, again it's a grey area.

The ADR states that it is legal to be used in conjunction with your main headlights and that there is no real restrictions on how many extra lights you are allowed to have switched on on your front bumper provided that the globe wattage does not exceed the main two headlights, and that they're cambered downwards, not straight like high beams ( which in that case you must dim for oncoming traffic ). So in theory, fog lights should not be blindingly brighter unless the owner has put the wrong globes in or the lights have been misaligned.

But the twist is that State laws have their version in this regard. In Victoria you're not allowed (as of 2008 onwards) to have both lights on at the same time, it's either one or the other, and there must be a valid event for the foggies to be used I.e Rain, fog, mist, driving in forests or winding roads etc. They can now be used for daytime driving on dusty roads and desert tracks, especially now that daytime LED strip lights are rapidly becoming common in newer cars (New Range Rovers included ), its the current fad at the moment.

So a little common sense does play a part here too, use fog lights only when need to, and not just for the sake of having them. I use them regularly as mentioned by others as a form of being seen by others especially high accident zones like the citilink tunnels.

Foggies when used correctly are definetaly not like spotlights or Driving lights that must be dimmed to oncoming traffic.

[joel0407]

This is what I use:
NEW Osram H4 Night Breaker Plus Nightbreaker Bulbs H4 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-OSRAM-H4-NIGHT-BREAKER-PLUS-NIGHTBREAKER-BULBS-H4-/190866023954?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2c70806612)

Further to "redandy3575"

As some state legislation states when fog lights can and can't be used. The manufacture needs to specifically refer to the lights as fog lights as many only refer to them as auxilary lights. Most police wont issue a fine unless the lights are actually dazzeling with the exception of some traffic cops but those guys are usually disliked by their own work collegues. The cops that so actually issue fines to people using their "Auxillary Lights" mostly rely on the fact that most poeple just pay the fine without challenge and those that do challenge it wont usually go past writting a letter because should they loose it will cost them more in court costs.

Providing they are not dazzelling, use them I say. The more you are lite up the easier you are for other to notice the more likely you are to be seen. This makes it less likely someone will pull out in front of you when you dont have the ability to stop.

Use the Auxillary lights be safe, be seen.

Happy Days.

[redandy3575]

I'm a big dan of Osram bulbs. Osram make a lot of bulbs for Hella. I dont know if they are the same spec but I have opened bubble packs of Hella bulbs and the base is stamped with Osram.

Now I buy my Osram Halogen bulbs from the UK at much cheaper prices than Hella, Narva or Philips.

I think Philips and Narva are rubbish. I've had a few and their higher % plus bulbs have a much shorter life than the equivilent Plus % Osram bulbs.

Happy days.

Depends where the Osram globes come from.

You've got the German one from Munich, and the Chinese one from the vast unknown of China.

However Osram supply Narva also. Most likely the Chinese one, but I haven't had an issue yet with the Narva's, time will tell I guess.

Just out of curiosity, you can get LED globes for P38s to replace the normal Halogen from EBay, has anyone tried them??

[benji]

Jaycar sell them now, was looking at them the other day.

Seems like this is a touchy subject for some, though id reckon those hid conversions that do shine over the roofs of other vehicles are from missaligned lights, not the lack of a levelling system, though hid would make the glare worse.
Fair enough if the original link was rubbish, run it the flag pole snd see if it waves so to speak.


I cant see an issue with having hid driving lights though.

A much bigger problem than light projection is buggers on high beam who are only 500m behind you.

[joel0407]

Seems like this is a touchy subject for some, though id reckon those hid conversions that do shine over the roofs of other vehicles are from missaligned lights, not the lack of a levelling system

The problem is the bulb shape, HID bulbs are long and thin. It's because of how they work that they need to be constructed like that. The light just hits the reflector at the wrong angle which causes a heap of spill light. Spill light is the light that shines out all the directions other than where the reflector shines the light, like out the sides, down but also up. The spill light is fine on high beam, it's half the reason I like to convert my driving lights. But on low beam you get all this up ward spill light that even if you angle your lights down there is still too much light being spilled up into the eyes of oncoming drivers. Most modern HID lite vehicles use a projector or a shutter. The shutter just creates a shadow across the top of the light to shade that upward spilt light.

Happy Days

[redandy3575]

The problem is the bulb shape, HID bulbs are long and thin. It's because of how they work that they need to be constructed like that. The light just hits the reflector at the wrong angle which causes a heap of spill light. Spill light is the light that shines out all the directions other than where the reflector shines the light, like out the sides, down but also up. The spill light is fine on high beam, it's half the reason I like to convert my driving lights. But on low beam you get all this up ward spill light that even if you angle your lights down there is still too much light being spilled up into the eyes of oncoming drivers. Most modern HID lite vehicles use a projector or a shutter. The shutter just creates a shadow across the top of the light to shade that upward spilt light.

Happy Days

Sounds too much trouble than its worth.

I reckon a good quality high intensity globe with good quality wiring looms is the go with close results and staying on the right side of the law.

At the end of the, does it really warrant all this hassle, let alone running the gauntlet with potentially getting a defect notice?

[joel0407]

Sounds too much trouble than its worth.

I reckon a good quality high intensity globe with good quality wiring looms is the go with close results and staying on the right side of the law.

At the end of the, does it really warrant all this hassle, let alone running the gauntlet with potentially getting a defect notice?



Even the best quality halogen bulbs won't come close to a cheap set of HID. They are only illegal in low beam and not that hard to install.


Happy days.

[redandy3575]

Even the best quality halogen bulbs won't come close to a cheap set of HID. They are only illegal in low beam and not that hard to install. .

Oh dunno about that, I've seen some pretty good halogens that'll give HIDs a good run for their money. Just look at what they put in aircrafts for example.

You can get Halogens with partial Xenon gas filled bulbs with very interesting results.

one thing with HIDs in high beam or spotties as good as they are is they don't like constant on and off when approaching oncoming traffic, shortens the bulb life dramatically.

Personally im leaning towards getting LED spotties which is a totally different ball game again.

[joel0407]

Oh dunno about that, I've seen some pretty good halogens that'll give HIDs a good run for their money. Just look at what they put in aircrafts for example.

You can get Halogens with partial Xenon gas filled bulbs with very interesting results.

one thing with HIDs in high beam or spotties as good as they are is they don't like constant on and off when approaching oncoming traffic, shortens the bulb life dramatically.

Personally im leaning towards getting LED spotties which is a totally different ball game again.


No way will even the Xenon Halogens come close.

I have tried all the plus 50% up to Plus 90% bulbs (Haven't tried Plus 100%) and they are not a shadow on HID.

The only down side I find with HID is the warm up time with constant dipping of the lights for on coming traffic. If it's one car they are fine but dip them for a few minutes and theres a 10 - 20 second wait until they reach full brightness.

I have run 3 sets for over 5 years now with no bulb failures. I now have sets 4 and 5 on the way and my Skoda has them as standard so you could say 6 sets.

I'd love to see a side by side test of LED v HID. I think the LED will excell in flood lighting with instant on but I doubt they will have the long range of the HID. What I like about the HID is even though they are excellent in long range light, they also spill heaps to flood.

For $35, if you have driving lights, I highly recommend you try HID before you spend hundreds on a LED light bar.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

.

Just out of interest have you seen HID driving lights?

If you get some make sure you aim for 5000k. Anything over 6000k get a bit too blue.

Further information just out of interest. The blue is just a by product of producing so much light. It's just the dominant colour and not wanted in lights. Blue is the hardest colour for human eyes to focus on and caused the most eye strain. It's just trendy at the moment to have bluse lights.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

and even more on blue lights.

If people put some thought into it. Blue coatings on bulbs arent actually blue they are red/yellow filters that filter out red and yellow light, leaving blue. So they are actually removing light.

Blue filters are bad OK.

Happy Days.

[benji]

I have to agree nothing comes close to hid. 8 years ago I got dad a 55wat hid kit for his hella spotlights, we measured 1.6 km of visible light, and a huge amount of spread.

Can't wait to find out about the led spotlights though, but I'll wait a few years untill the price comes down.

[Homestar]

A much bigger problem than light projection is buggers on high beam who are only 500m behind you.

Get yourself an L322 - auto dimming mirrors mean you never have to worry about turds like that again.;)

[redandy3575]

I have to agree nothing comes close to hid. 8 years ago I got dad a 55wat hid kit for his hella spotlights, we measured 1.6 km of visible light, and a huge amount of spread.

Can't wait to find out about the led spotlights though, but I'll wait a few years untill the price comes down.

The prices are fairly even. Check this mob out: Korr Lighting (http://korrlighting.com.au/)

Never seen HID spotties for $35 though. Unless its sold out the back of a truck, LOL.

[joel0407]

They are still very far apart. Grab a set of halogen globe lights for what ever price. I like Hella Rally 4000 lights. They are one of the more expensive lights but they have a glass refector. Something many others don't. Most use tin or plastic. Glass reflectors give that mirror reflection of light.

Then buy a HID kit for your halogen based lights. I've seen kits as low as $20 but the last one I bought was $35.


Happy days. Away you go.

[redandy3575]

They are still very far apart. Grab a set of halogen globe lights for what ever price. I like Hella Rally 4000 lights. They are one of the more expensive lights but they have a glass refector. Something many others don't. Most use tin or plastic. Glass reflectors give that mirror reflection of light.

Then buy a HID kit for your halogen based lights. I've seen kits as low as $20 but the last one I bought was $35.


Happy days. Away you go.

So where do you get HID headlight conversions for $35?? Are you refering to bulb only or something? Most stores I haven't seen headlight conversion kits for less than $100. And spotlights for no less than $400. Unless they're the el finer ebay knock offs from China, can't see them being much chop for that kind of money.

I know the Hella ones your talking about, we've got them on our work trucks. Problem is, they don't handle the rough road vibrations too well, the trucks are 3 years old, and already Brocken 2 of them through sheer vibration of rough bitumen back roads in victoria, the glass reflectors just shattered.

On one of our older trucks (which has been traded in for a newy ) we had the large light force spotties on them and were absolutely amazing.

But still condsidering the LED spotlight.

[joel0407]

Yep. eBay. Cheap Chinese. I haven't had one fail and they'll blow any halogen, xenon or what ever out of the water.

Your trucks must be hard on lights. My brother drives interstate and carts a far amount of wool of farms around northern NSW. He has run them for years and takes them from truck to truck as they are his not the companies. He doesn't change truck every week or anything but if someone leaves or they get a new truck there might be a shuffle. You don't get much rougher roads for trucks than farm tracks. He always uses clear covers and he has been through a few of those.


I just wish you were closer so I could show you.


Happy days.

[redandy3575]

Yep. eBay. Cheap Chinese. I haven't had one fail and they'll blow any halogen, xenon or what ever out of the water.

Your trucks must be hard on lights. My brother drives interstate and carts a far amount of wool of farms around northern NSW. He has run them for years and takes them from truck to truck as they are his not the companies. He doesn't change truck every week or anything but if someone leaves or they get a new truck there might be a shuffle. You don't get much rougher roads for trucks than farm tracks. He always uses clear covers and he has been through a few of those.


I just wish you were closer so I could show you.


Happy days.

How can trucks be hard on lights??? You just switch them on and away you go....it's not rocket science. They're the latest Isuzu 800 series OB trucks with air suspension, if anything they'd be somewhat gentle on them. Just general vibration of the road as they're fixed to the bullbar.

[joel0407]

Well you said the glass refector shattered. How did that happen?

I thought maybe the alloy housing could crack with fatigue but I don't know how the refector could shatter with vibration. Glass lens maybe with a rock but there's covers to protect from that.


Happy days.

[redandy3575]

Well you said the glass refector shattered. How did that happen?

I thought maybe the alloy housing could crack with fatigue but I don't know how the refector could shatter with vibration. Glass lens maybe with a rock but there's covers to protect from that.


Happy days.

Well on one that's exactly what happened, truck must of hit a bumb or just the constant vibration from the rough bitumen on roads such as the Sunraysia Hwy, the back reflector basically was in a hundred pieces within the light housing. On the other same OB truck, the mounting broke clean off the housing with only the cable hanging onto the light.

[benji]

Would the bullbar design on the new hinos amplify the vibration through flex in the bullbar?

Lights mounted ontop of a pajero bar get the snot beaten out of them on corrugated roads because the chassis flex at the front amplifies the vibration.

Dad's had his ralle lights for 16 years, we've done the sunrasia heaps of times, and endless hours of corrugations. Id be interested to know how they go on say a troop carrier.

[joel0407]

Hey "redandy3575",

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/communications-car-audio-electronics/181377-driving-light-options.html

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

Dad's had his ralle lights for 16 years, we've done the sunrasia heaps of times, and endless hours of corrugations. Id be interested to know how they go on say a troop carrier.

I'd say no better or worse than a 75 series ute. That's where another set of my brother's are mounted.

Many years ago I had a set of IPF lights on a troop carrier. I'd take a guess at over 150,000km. They ended up cracking the metal housing where the mount met.

I said earlier that I thought the Hella Rally 4000 housing could crack with fatigue but after looking at them this morning, the mount is very broad both where it connects to the bar and where it connects to the ligth. I doubt this would happen now. I think even if they got knocked off with a roo the housing would break pretty bad, not just the mount.

Happy Days.

[redandy3575]

Would the bullbar design on the new hinos amplify the vibration through flex in the bullbar?

Lights mounted ontop of a pajero bar get the snot beaten out of them on corrugated roads because the chassis flex at the front amplifies the vibration.

Dad's had his ralle lights for 16 years, we've done the sunrasia heaps of times, and endless hours of corrugations. Id be interested to know how they go on say a troop carrier.

Don't know about the Hino's, but the Isuzu trucks have the factory optioned alloy bar on the front. Here's a link to our website with the picture of part of the fleet. :: TRP - Thoroughbred Racing Productions :: (http://www.trpbroadcast.com.au/)

As you can see the lights are mounted on the middle level of the bullbar. The Sunraysia as you'd know is a fairly crappy road from Donald onwards, let alone some of the other roads in and around Victoria. Don't know what it is, but the lights a simply not going the distance in terms of durability. Because these trucks are owned by Sony, they just keep replacing them instead of trying something different. I did suggest to them Lightforce as we've never had issues with them before being an Australian company and all.

[joel0407]

I checked out that Fyrlyt website last night. They seem like pretty impressive light and Australiain made. I like how the polycarbonate lens can be easily replaced and priced similar to a lens cover of some of the other brands. That makes pretty good sense to me.

Hey "redandy3575". Are you sure they are Rallye 4000 and not the 2000? I'm at work and only looking at your picture on my iPhone so its a bit hard to see.


Happy days.

[benji]

Sorry, I meant isuzu, not hino.

Im pretty sure they are the 4000. I take it they're bolted to a tab thats welded to the tube?

I wonder if the tab is the same size as the base of the lights.
The tabs on the Classic bar weren't big enough when we first got the lights, and even though the tabs were flat it allowed a lot of beam shake on a good bitumen road. After welding bigger ones on it wasn't an issue.

You'd think management would try something different though.

[intheozone]

Back to the HID issue.

I have two pencil HID spotties and a 32" LED light bar. Awesome at night on road in remote areas and off road they provide loads of light but, only have the standard OEM bulbs for hi beam low beam and side lights.

My problem is when on the highway and i dip my hi beams which is connected to my spotties and light bar i get a temp blindness as my low beams are so yellow and dim that it takes a while for my eyes to adjust to the less light. even my hi beams are terrible. I was considering a HID conversion to my low beams but listening to the chat here maybe some better bulbs are the answer.

I did have cheap chinese HID conversions on my old car a Volvo v40 they were terrible though.

What todo?

[Tombie]

I have one of those projector inserts in my motorbike...

Works a treat...

[mtb_gary]

Back to the HID issue.

I have two pencil HID spotties and a 32" LED light bar. Awesome at night on road in remote areas and off road they provide loads of light but, only have the standard OEM bulbs for hi beam low beam and side lights.

My problem is when on the highway and i dip my hi beams which is connected to my spotties and light bar i get a temp blindness as my low beams are so yellow and dim that it takes a while for my eyes to adjust to the less light. even my hi beams are terrible. I was considering a HID conversion to my low beams but listening to the chat here maybe some better bulbs are the answer.

I did have cheap chinese HID conversions on my old car a Volvo v40 they were terrible though.

What todo?
Stick to the standard lights and invest in night vision glasses??? :eek2::twobeers:

Gary

[wayneg]

Back to the HID issue.

I did have cheap chinese HID conversions on my old car a Volvo v40 they were terrible though.

What todo?

If you put a hid kit in, whatever it is its going to be illegal. You will also be branded a Moron as I have been. My Hids are also 55w as opposed to most being 35w They are 5000k, no silly blue tint. You are more than welcome to come round and get blinded, or not? You need to be aware that nearly all kits will give a dashboard bulb out warning. The BECM cant be fooled by in-line resistors as tried by Paul at Hard Range. I had a kit made up, essentially 2 motorbike kits with canbus ballasts. The bulbs have a moving shield to give high and low. I Also have Led sidelight bulbs, not the usual type 501 replacements, but 13 led canbus type which are nearly as bright as standard headlamps on dip. The 55w Hids have a disconcerting effect when you switch them on cold, there is a momentary loss of power to the dash, worrying at first but 2 years on no ill effects, and no bulb error messages
The projector inserts I put the video up of can be had for around $100 a pair but you will need to get the lens off the headlamp. There is a good write up on Stockholmviews website on how he did it on a P38a lamp.

[Eevo]

very time you pit HID's in your car, your making baby jesus cry, murdering innocent newborns, enabling drug dealers and supporting communism.

seriously, HID are nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

[101RRS]

very time you pit HID's in your car, your making baby jesus cry, murdering innocent newborns, enabling drug dealers and supporting communism.

seriously, HID are nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

I agree - I get blinded more by out of adjustment 100w halogens than HIDS -however HIDS are initially more noticeable (but not more blinding) because of the whiter light.

[redandy3575]

I agree - I get blinded more by out of adjustment 100w halogens than HIDS -however HIDS are initially more noticeable (but not more blinding) because of the whiter light.

Ohh HID's are quiet annoying when someone's either following you on a freeway in the next lane, as the angle throws the optics out.

It still doesn't make a low beam HID legal In Victoria. Like I said earlier, it's not worth the hassle flouting with the law. If you cannot see without HID, then you shouldn't be on the road. As again, with a set of H4 Narva Artic 50, the P38 ( to my eyes anyway ) produce more than adequate lighting.

[benji]

The narva +80s and a 4500kv hid bulb are pretty much the same colour.

Thats what dad's got on his disco, and going between spotlights on to low beam is quite easy on the eyes, you still feel a bit 'blind' but who doesn't at 100 on low beam.

I was wondering Wayneg, if I was to wire in a 55watt kit into the inboard driving lights, surely that would work, as the standard bulbs are 55 watt also.

I whilst hid around town isn't really necessary, having hid driving lights make long hours at night so much less tiring. Driving back from lake Mungo, or Bendigo to Rainbow etc.

[wayneg]

I was wondering Wayneg, if I was to wire in a 55watt kit into the inboard driving lights, surely that would work, as the standard bulbs are 55 watt also.


The inboard lights use a different bulb so a different kit would be needed. No need for hi and low beam. No big deal, just buy 2 H1 motorbike kits. I would now use 2 bike kits on any setup as it does away with the power loom used on Car kits and if you get canbus ballasts no warning lights


Here is an old thread on the H4`s
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/112575-hid-drl.html

[Pete38]

So just when I thought, yep lets spend a fortune (maybe not quite but over a hundred bucks on bulbs with shorter life) on Narva +120's for a H1 and H4 pair I read the link below.. There are Flux measurements on the +50's and they are barely 10 % more light. But at least the colours aren't quite as orange. I'm confused because a lot of people seem to say these kinds of bulbs are noticeably brighter but tests say otherwise..

So maybe change the H4's and put H1 HID's in the high only after all. Sorta was hoping to just update the Halogens, but for an extra 20 bucks it appears HID's can be bought for the H1's.

Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply (http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/blue/good/good.html)

[Tombie]

Brightness and glare are easily confused by the human eye.

What we perceive as bright is often glare.

Hence the comments "look at the white light, it's so bright"

A lux meter and 5 minutes comparing HID, LED and Xenon globes can quickly confirm this.

[benji]

Thats what I'm going to do. I assume the h1s are the head lights just inboard of the h4s?

I'll be wiring my h1s up to a switch that I can turn off though. As around town clicking from high to low seems to happen a lot. I'll get a bulb failure message but I can live with that.

The h1s at the moment have a reasonable spread, so I'm hoping with the hid bulb sitting out further it'll be a good result.

[Pete38]

So I'm assuming most 55W HID's will NOT bring up an error code when used in the inside high beams (H1's)?

Any suggestions from anyone using them in a P38? I'm looking at the OPT7 Bolt AC 55w or VVME hid 55W kit but both seem to receive lots of pro's then there are the negatives. Ebay specials seem like a waste and give out pour colour and brightness and reliability... it seems.

[wayneg]

On the car kits I have seen you need to run a power loom which is switched on via a relay controlled by one of the original light plugs. The problem with this is the other side original plug just swings in the wind. Even kits without the power loom still throw the error. Paul from hard range tried various load resisters to fool the becm with no luck. The ones I finally sourced use a Canbus ballast. Not sure what the difference is but no error message.

[Pete38]

CAN BUS HID Ballasts | Better Automotive Lighting Blog (http://betterautomotivelighting.com/2012/04/13/can-bus-hid-ballasts/)

[rc42]

I have a 55w HID conversion kit in my inner main beam lights, it has extra capacitor units on the 12v side which allow current to flow for a short time when the BeCM performs its bulb tests. This means no error warnings but the capacitor has to be just the right size for the test circuit that its matching to, an element of luck is required for these to work.

As far as use goes, the HIDs are so much brighter than the old halogen bulbs, it makes for a huge improvement in night driving but the downside is the slow start characteristic of the HIDs as they pick up brightness over about 30 seconds when first used and after dipping for oncoming drivers they can take a few seconds to recover to full brightness again.

[Tombie]

As far as use goes, the HIDs are so much brighter than the old halogen bulbs, it makes for a huge improvement in night driving but the downside is the slow start characteristic of the HIDs as they pick up brightness over about 30 seconds when first used and after dipping for oncoming drivers they can take a few seconds to recover to full brightness again.

An incorrect statement I'm afraid.

Brightness is a factor of output and energy conversion. For brute force light nothing beats a filament bulb.

HiD has the benefit of a wide voltage input ballast. It's arc curve and output drop off as it ages (the electrodes burn away) causes cut off problems and the output diminishes over time rendering its colour output variable over the life of the bulb.

If you care to doubt this info, this is based around a long meeting with the technical guys from Osram - makers of filament and hid products.

[Pete38]

I don't really understand your point other than giving technical info that really isn't too applicable. Explain what you are saying using an example of HID car lights.

Yes HID's diminish in colour and brightness over time. But after a halogens life time of what 1000 hours max the HID is unlikely to have diminished in brightness or colour that much.

And brightness is the amount of luminance per area, and from what I have seen the HID's light the subject (road or object) up far more (thus the target is brighter) as well as lighting up a larger area due to the greater energy output.

[rc42]

My use of the term 'brightness' was in relation to light output, typically measured in lumens, I'm not sure what 'brute force light' is but if a filament bulb is best at it then I guess it's heat.


Here's some technical info from the Lightforce website, it's a fair assumption that they know what they're talking about:

Halogen Versus HID (http://www.lightforce.net.au/hid/halogen-versus-hid)



Advantages of HID over Halogen
Compared with incandescent bulbs, HID lamps have higher luminous efficiency since a greater proportion of their radiation is in visible light as opposed to heat. Their overall luminous efficiency is also much higher: they give a greater amount of light output per watt of electricity input.


The 50W HID has approximately six times the output of a standard 100W Halogen globe
HID has a low amperage and very low current draw
A 12V 50W HID globe draws 4.16 amps compared to 8.33 amps drawn by a standard 100W halogen globe
This means a 50% reduction in power consumption
Cold to touch because the low wattage means the heat output is reduced significantly

[Tombie]

Actually it's a fair assumption LF are not technically up to it - their design experts left the company several years ago.

Will write a better response when I'm not tapping on a phone...

[Tombie]

Something to consider also:

Unless you have a significantly weak alternator and charging system - power consumption is a moot point in an automotive setup.

[101RRS]

My RRS experience is probably relevant to P38s. I have put HIDS in both low beam (in the projector) and high beam and these are cheap ebay systems and I have had no issues with the Canbus or fault codes etc.

Yes they do drop off in performance but not really noticeable and they last longer than halogens anyway.

When the HIDs light up they go through their blue phase first and then the yellow section kicks in and after 5-10secs they are at full brilliance and colour.

As mentioned HIDs take to long to light up from cold to be initially effective. Not so much a problem in little used outback roads but in town where light may be needed quickly (road works etc) they are not much use. Headlight flashing etc seriously reduces life.

Because of this slow lightup, I have decided to take the HIDs out of high beam and put in some of the new 4300k hi brilliance Halogens so colour will be similar to the HIDS I have in low beam.

HIDs have great light but they do have some limitations like slow light up and would be good in spotties if you do not need quick light up.

No interested in the pros and cons argument of then use of HIDs - these are my thoughts only.

Cheers

Garry

[benji]

I haven't done any reading on the subject, but I can't for the life of me see how a 55watt halogen produces more light than a 55watt hid; in fact to the eye a 55wat hid puts out heaps more than a 100watt halogen does. 1.7km seeing distance as opposed to 800m - we measured it.

I have a feeling this is like many car stereo competitions. A lot of winning systems don't actually sound that good, but on the judges recording software they are acoustically perfect.

In terms of error codes on the becm, couldn't I hook the main power draw for a 55watt kit up to the becm power supply for the h1s? They're both 55watt....

Im not sure of inrush current or anything like that though.

[mtb_gary]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest but some of the comments seem to be a little off target. I’ll try to explain:

Compared with incandescent bulbs including halogen, HID lamps have higher luminous efficiency since a greater proportion of their radiation is in visible light as opposed to heat.

It is far more accurate to measure in Lumens output as a comparison of different lights. (Lumen is a unit of measurement of light output or brightness and watt is a measurement of power being used). Traditional 100w halogen light produces around 1700 lumens at the source, while HID outfitted lights can output up to and beyond 6000 lumens each at less power. The key to this is Lumen per watt efficiency (Lm/w). Some of the cheaper HID kits around have a very low efficiency rating, and though they draw 50 watts of power, they may only produce enough light to match a highly efficient 35w kit in output lumens

Halogen lamps are very inefficient, with a 100W bulb producing 1700 lumens at only 17% efficiency, 17 lumens per watt. That’s 83% inefficient and converting the wasted output into heat. Better HID kits can produce around 87% efficiency, 87 lumens per watt.eg) 35w x 87 = 3045 Lumens with only 13% inefficiency converting to heat, whichis why HID lights run cooler than halogens of the same Lumen output even thoughthey run at many times less their power.

HID has a low amperage and very low current draw, for instance a 12V 50W HID globe draws 4.16 amps compared to 8.33 amps drawn by a standard 100Whalogen globe.

Then there is colour temperature, for most applications around 5000K will suit. Once you get higher than 5500K there is a very distinctive cold blue look and not really all that great for most driving conditions, the other end of the spectrum below 4000K your eyes will see a very yellowish cast appear with the lights.


Ultimately it’s your choice, there’s lots to chose from. For me, as I don’t do a lot of driving at night in my p38 I have the standard halogen lamps so the KISS principal is my best option.

Gary

[Tombie]

Gary..

You're partly correct but also purveying incorrect information.

Lumens per watt is correct as a unit of efficiency

However, your figures are incorrect.

And yes, you are correct in your definitions - wattage is a measure of power, not light.

Lux, and lumens are measurements of light.

The other problem is focusing the light output.
And inefficient reflector can take a powerful output and make it useless, whereas a well designed reflector can harness light more efficiently and produce a far more useful light.

[Tombie]

Other problems, regarding colour temperature are with eye strain...

Try driving a highway for hours on HID spotlights - the level of eyestrain is increased - the wavelength of the light conflicts with humans natural night vision.

And for the record - there are very very few HID ballasts that produce what they claim.

And there are xenon bulbs with far higher efficiencies than 17 lumen per watt.

And again, unless the vehicle has an extremely limited charging system, what does the extra current matter?

[benji]

Do you mean the extra current of high wattage bulbs? Mmm, im not sure the becm would like 100watt bulbs.

4300k seems a pretty natural colours to me. I've driven 100s of hours on dads spotlights with no eye strain. As said, a 6000k colour is quite blue (innatural), which is hard on the eyes.

True there's probably some really cheap ballasts out there. So if you go into ARB, memorise the serial number off their ballast resisters, type it into ebay and you'll find the direct importer in Frankston and they're 75 percent cheaper, and put them in a free form reflector like the hella compacts.

I very much doubt there's a xenon globe that is up around 80 efficiency.

[Tombie]

Just for the record - my vehicle is driving 2x 250w driving lights without issue :D

My lumen output from these 2 lights is 10,000 lumens each.

That's real lumens, not theoretical.

[Tombie]

We just pulled the HIDs out of the D2 and went back to filament lighting as it produces a better light for driving highways at night.

Something I spend a lot of my time doing.

The D4 is as per stock (HID and Filament high fill) with the 250w driving lights.

[rc42]

Tombie, you seem to be throwing out a lot of one liners and poorly considered statements which you don't mention again when they are questioned yet you are regularly accusing others of purveying inaccuracies and incorrect information.

Just to assist you given your love of accuracy, xenon is the gas used in HID bulbs and 'xenon' bulbs are generally accepted as being HID types, modern tungsten filament bulbs use halogen gas although many are marketed as 'xenon' just because of a blue tint on the glass which helps to match the light colour of true xenon lights, some even have xenon gas in them instead of halogen and are run hotter to give whiter light but suffer from short life so are not very common.

All tungsten bulbs make light by the current heating the filament till it is so hot that it glows white, heat is their main output with at best 20% as light.

I've also driven long distances with both Xenon HID spot lamps and at other times with halogen spot lamps and other than having lots more light with HID I've never noticed any eye strain with either. Mind you, I only ever use 4300K HIDs, the higher temperature blue and even purple hues could be tiresome, plus their light output is significantly lower.

[Tombie]

RC42

Osram, my preferred bulb supplier uses Xenon gas in their tungsten bulbs.

A selection of gases can be used.
Argon, Xenon, Halogen, Neon and Nitrogen etc

Modern bulbs are far more efficient than in the past, however I do agree they do produce more heat in their process.

A newer development in Filament bulbs is Infra red technology, which produces a brighter light again through increased efficiency of the bulb.

This allows for an output close to double that of a standard bulb.

Remember too, that filament bulbs are colour constant through their life, where as the arc colour in a Gas Discharge light will change in the first 50 or so hours and then degrade over time even further.

I agree if choosing HID as your preferred lighting system that closer to 4300k is a better choice over any higher temperature bulbs.

[Tombie]

On HIDs, All 35 watt units measure watts out of ballast to lamp, OEM or Aftermarket (China) Note input to 35watt units is approx 42 watts.
Average lumen output = 2800 /3200L
Osram and Phillips / OEM have approximately 90 lumens per watt output where as lamps made in China are in the range of 75 /85 lumen watt
All HIDs above 35 w eg /50w /70w /100w measure input to ballast not output therefore to get watts to the lamp x 80% ( ballast losses) to get approx watts EG 50w input x 80% = 40w to lamp x approx 85% Lumen / watts (China) = 3400Lumen output

70w x 80% = 56 watts x 85% L/W 4750Lumens output

100watt x 80% =80 watts x 85L/w =approx 7000 Lumen (102.3 watts input as tested by me) I emailed the manufacturer /not the supplier and they emailed back with the input and output of this ballast / 100w in x 75watt out

It appears everybody advertising on these sites and forums just grabs the stated watts (input or output) and multiplies it X Osram OEM HID efficiency of approx 90%. Great for numbers on paper but not the truth.

These numbers vary slightly due to manufacturing tolerances but close enough to do your own calculations

The only difference between HID OEM reflectors and Halogen are for headlight kits, the cutoffs and angles are different to suit the changed arc light source and on spotlights the HIDs eg Hella have a slight deviation in the reflector to hide the shadow line caused by the insulating tube on the lamps. Lightforce have removed the insulating tube from their lamps to remove the shadow but does leave a very high voltage wire exposed to the user.

Halogen lamps vary depending an gas makeup, pressure and lamp life but they have Lumen/Watt outputs between about 17L/w and 35L/w
HIDs look brighter because the colour rendering of a HID (Closer to Blue) 4300Kelvin + has more glare, your pupils do not respond to blue light and contract as they do with halogen (more yellow)up to 3300Kelvin. Hence why even a low wattage blue lamp looks bright (glare) even though the lumen output is much lower and why yellow filters give less glare in fog ( less dispersion), and blue filters ( blue painted lamp or filters) give more glare due to the short wavelength blue light reflecting ( dispersing ) up to 16 times more than yellow (long wavelength) light.
That is why old ice, the sea and deep snow looks blue. Short wavelength reflection.
This why suppliers of blue coated halogen lamps state 50% brighter/ whiter (Glare)
But they neglect to tell you lumen output compared to the same lamp non coated.
Re satements like getting 100watt output with 55 watt current draw as some $40.00 to $80.00 lamps quote, that is called perpetual motion. We would all like to get something for nothing. The blue coating is to give the impression of brightness.
If you made a 130w and a 55w with the same gas mix, pressure and life the output differences would be huge.
From your base lumen output of between 2800 /3200 from a 35watt Hid of 4300 kelvin your lumen output (intensity) will decrease by approx 5% per 1000 kelvin upwards on top of the previous calculations.

[101RRS]

I think you two guys need to get a room somewhere :o

[benji]

Mmm, I don't really know the point you're trying to make Tombie.

The right hids aren't hard on my eyes, and they produce way more light for the amount of watts used than any filimant bulb ever will. You cannot run a tungsten filimant on 15000ish volts - thats where the efficiency is (v×a=w and derivations thereof). The annode will degrade over time as you say, but in the 10 years they've been on dad's spotlights, they haven't visibly changed colour.

Personally I think 52amp to run those two bulbs is just crazy, and im sure it would shorten the life of the alternator and the plastic relector in the d2.

Just wondering though, how many volts are you getting to the high powered bulbs? It'd be interesting to measure the voltage, and then after an hours driving measure them again.

[Tombie]

I'm running them on a D4 in driving lights - at a stable regulated 24volts.

No issue with the current draw, as the vehicle has a factory 180amp alternator :)

And the point I'm making is not regarding efficiency - it's regarding output.
Even the driving lights on the D2 put out over 5000 lumens each, using filament bulbs - which out "light" the 70w HIDs it had previously.

This is done at a current draw of 23 amps, a trifling amount for a modern charging system.

With reference to your driving lights that are 10 years old - sorry, but the colour rendering will be different - as are your eyes now you are 10 years older!

Tell you what, when you spend as much time hauling around outback roads as I do, for
Hours on end, then feel free to comment on suitability of product for purpose.

Compare the number of long haul trucks now running High output lights in a filament vs HiD and ask the truckers why... Eye strain is often the major reason followed closely by warm up time.

Let's just agree to disagree - I've spoken with the tech boffins at Osram, and some of the leaders in automotive lighting systems and their learned statements conflict with your perceptions.

If your lighting works for you - great... Happy trails...

[joel0407]

I've been following this topic for a while and been itching to chime in but it's hard to type on my iPhone while I'm away on holidays.

I have previously done plenty of night driving all over Australia and I will always drive with HID if I can. I did over 110,000 km per year and many at night because I had to be at the next job before the next day.


My brother is an interstate truck driver, driving from Bathurst to Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney and often carting wool for return trip via North Western NSW. Surprise surprise his preference is also HID in his driving lights.


I left Darwin at 3 pm last Friday and waited until the last moment possible before putting my front bumper on my Skoda Yeti. I was hopping that my HID kits that I had ordered for my Hella Rallye 4000 Compacts would arrive before I left. They didn't and I fitted some 100w Philips bulbs. After having nothing but HID in all my vehicles for at least the past 6 years, I'm far from impressed with going back to the old halogen tech. It's just rubbish in comparison.


I red Tombie's comments about the light from the HID bulb not being focused properly by the reflector. I have to say, I appreciate that. It's good. The part of the HID bulb that is positioned the same as the halogen is much brighter and still gets focused to the same area. The part of the HID bulb that is longer than the old Halogen hits the reflector at a different angle. I find this part of the light spreads more. So you get the long pencil beam of the old Halogen, only brighter and also this extra light that is reflected out all over the place. I'm not going to complain about more light in more areas.


I also have to disagree with Tombie's comments about having plenty of power to run high wattage halogens. Even though the alternator is rated at 180amp. I can guarantee that won't be constant. If you drag a big whack of power from your battery on start up or something similar, it's fine for a short burst to recharge the battery but not meant to run those sort of current for hours on end.


I am also wondering is the D4 24v?


Happy Days

[joel0407]

I forgot to add. I left Darwin at 3pm on Friday and arrived in Bathurst 4am Monday morning. Coming through Bourke at 8pm with no bull bar and crappy halogens was not fun at all. I have video I can post when I get back to Darwin. I just don't think people understand how many roos there are out there. Those that I have shown around here have commented there are more roos on the road than guide posts.

Oh and further. HID lights are no good for spot lighting. The idea is the light blinds the animal and it can see where to go so it sits. HID spot lights throw out so much light the whole area is lite up and the animals just run around like it day time.


Happy Days

[benji]

Ahh, I understand know.

Not an issue at all Tombie, horses for courses. We've both different experiences and knowledge.

TBH I'm interested in seeing what those bulbs are like now; the glass reflector in the hellas would be perfect.......

[TheTree]

Hi

I too have been following this excellent thread with interest and having a background in electronics and photography, I can see where the confusion comes between power and lumens.

Sounds to me like the best halogen H4 bulbs in the standard spots combined with HIDs would be a good compromise without needing a heap of wiring changes.

Steve

[superquag]

I hope we have'nt lost sight of the purpose of 'Low Beam' and it's reason for invention:-

...so on-coming drivers are NOT dazzled.

That does'nt mean simply aiming the lights downward...which is bearable in dry weather, but on a wet road means they will be reflected UPwards...

[TheTree]

HI

One other thing to check when comparing lumens is the distance they are measured at. Light, like sound, is subject to the inverse square law.

Lumens are usually quoted @ 1 metre, so make sure you are comparing apples to apples

And yes less power in watts for the same Lumens means greater efficiency :cool:

Steve

[benji]

I would imagine the d3 would be 12volt with a 24v gizmo (transfotmer?)

Superquag there's no argument about the low beams, Tombie and I were talking about driving and spot lights.

I have to admit Joel that after having Dads hid hellas, then getting my own with 120w bulbs I was very dissapointed too, and they were getting 13.2v. But everyone's ideal setup will be different.

[joel0407]

Stepping down voltage with a transformer is easy but going up is another thing. Especially with higher currents. Still interested as 24v, 250w maybe comparable to HID. The higher voltage means the same current as 12v at 125w.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

I agree there are horses for courses. Maybe Tombie's driving is more east coast where there is heavier population and more signs because I agree that sign reflection with HID can be pretty fierce but most signs are close to town and I'm happy to drop the lights. A lot of my driving is all over Australia especially further west where the only reflections you see are guide posts and animals eyes.

Happy Days

[benji]

Mmm, it's pretty lonely country anwhere north or west of Whyalla, mainly salt bush and birds.

[Tombie]

I agree there are horses for courses. Maybe Tombie's driving is more east coast where there is heavier population and more signs because I agree that sign reflection with HID can be pretty fierce but most signs are close to town and I'm happy to drop the lights. A lot of my driving is all over Australia especially further west where the only reflections you see are guide posts and animals eyes.

Happy Days

A lot of my driving is in roads without posts!
Or bitumen!



A few posts are starting to get muddled again.

HID is a light producing tech which produces a higher Lumen output per watt of power consumed (when compared to incandescent bulbs).

To state a HID is brighter than any other light is only accurate if proceeded by "for a given power consumption"

Light is light - a big enough brushfire will produce a lot of light...

In this case (driving lights) there is an incandescent technology, running 12v that produces more light output than a 70w HID set.
This has been measured, confirmed and independently tested.

One consumes 22amps the other 10.8amp at 12volt. Hardly a problem...


And yes, my D4 is running twin Step-Ups converting 12v to 24v.
And I have sustained these lights comfortably for 6 straight hours without voltage drop.


What do you do for a living to be travelling regularly?

I'm pulling around 4,400km a fortnight...
Of which only about 1,200km is sealed.

Lucky I like to drive! :D

[Tombie]

Back to the HID issue.

My problem is when on the highway and i dip my hi beams which is connected to my spotties and light bar i get a temp blindness as my low beams are so yellow and dim that it takes a while for my eyes to adjust to the less light. even my hi beams are terrible. I was considering a HID conversion to my low beams but listening to the chat here maybe some better bulbs are the answer.

I did have cheap chinese HID conversions on my old car a Volvo v40 they were terrible though.

What todo?

Just some info for you...

The human eye is naturally designed to process yellow light - eg closer to sunlight.

The higher colour temp of HID operates in a spectrum that causes "stunned in a spotlight" behaviour of the eye - reducing its reaction time and night vision behaviour...

Do a bit of google research.. It will back up the statement.

[rc42]

HID is a light producing tech which produces a higher Lumen output per watt of power consumed (when compared to incandescent bulbs).


Indeed, significantly higher with longer bulb life too but the disadvantage of slow startup





To state a HID is brighter than any other light is only accurate if proceeded by "for a given power consumption"


Not really, a light is brighter if it produces more output (lumens), you don't need to know the power consumption of two lights to say which is brighter. But certainly not any other light, LED can match HID for efficiency and colour temperature.





In this case (driving lights) there is an incandescent technology, running 12v that produces more light output than a 70w HID set.
This has been measured, confirmed and independently tested.
One consumes 22amps the other 10.8amp at 12volt. Hardly a problem...


130W of HID at about 80% efficiency verses 260W of incandescent means the latter would have to exceed 40% efficiency, that's about double current halogen technology, do you have a brand name to quote, this sounds interesting.

Unless the 22amps is at 24volt, that would be 520W at 20% efficiency which is about normal for incandescent but your 12-24 step up units would be sucking over 44amps.

[superquag]

Just some info for you...

The human eye is naturally designed to process yellow light - eg closer to sunlight.

The higher colour temp of HID operates in a spectrum that causes "stunned in a spotlight" behaviour of the eye - reducing its reaction time and night vision behaviour...

Do a bit of google research.. It will back up the statement.

Agree.

I've got a few LED torches.... Lost count but can find nearly a dozen at any given moment.
:eek:

For looking in the bush/foliage/real life, the 'Warm White' one is the nicest of the lot. Gives the best contrast and definition of branches/leaves/grass. Indeed, whilst all the other LED's make mince-meat of my Maglites (3 to 6 cell) only the halogen re-chargeable puts up a fight.... and still loses to the 'Warm White' LED.

I had 4000-degree K HIDs (or was it 3800?) in my late Mazda, and they simply looked like Very Bright 'normal' globes. Great light, minimal glare from signs.

Like LEDs. it's cheaper and easier to produce 'blue-ish' than 'warm' when one is counting lumens.

Contrast is more useful than 'bright' at any cost.

The other thing is, incandescent produces a continuous spectrum, infra-red through to violet, though -obviously- biased towards the red/yellow end. Driving a filament harder shifts, but does'nt eliminate this bias.

Gas discharge (especially) and LEDs produce light that has spectral holes, and un-evenness in the curveGo here for a comparison of sunlight...to various flouro and HID curves. They will be.....illuminating.:angel:

Learn About Light: Spectral Power Distribution Curves: GE Commercial Lighting Products (http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/spectral_power_distribution_curves/)

LED Spectral Analysis Graphs HERE. - Lighting Forum - Nano-Reef.com Forums (http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/271198-led-spectral-analysis-graphs-here/)

[Tombie]

Indeed, significantly higher with longer bulb life too but the disadvantage of slow startup





Not really, a light is brighter if it produces more output (lumens), you don't need to know the power consumption of two lights to say which is brighter. But certainly not any other light, LED can match HID for efficiency and colour temperature.





130W of HID at about 80% efficiency verses 260W of incandescent means the latter would have to exceed 40% efficiency, that's about double current halogen technology, do you have a brand name to quote, this sounds interesting.

Unless the 22amps is at 24volt, that would be 520W at 20% efficiency which is about normal for incandescent but your 12-24 step up units would be sucking over 44amps.

Hang on.. Are you discussing efficiency or output?

If the question is: what produces the highest lumen output for the best efficiency then yes HID takes honours.

If the question is: Which light (assembly) produces the most light? Then the question changes.

A light (driving, head, torch) is the sum of all it's parts.
No point having the highest light output if it isn't controlled, nor is there any point having the best efficiency if the light is harsh, glare etc.

It's a fantastic and most interesting "nerd" topic - and one I really enjoy. I have several learned colleagues with a very strong background in this field... So I'm able to get some really good information and understanding of what works, what doesn't and the whys...

[joel0407]

What do you do for a living to be travelling regularly?

I'm pulling around 4,400km a fortnight...
Of which only about 1,200km is sealed.

Lucky I like to drive! :D

I was a Telstra Subby for 9 years as a Fibre Optic Tech. I've been out of the game for about 5 years now but I still love to drive.

I live in Darwin now and just ducked back to Bathurst to see the olds. The trip back ended up being 10,200km in 14 days which just seemed normal to me but most others think I'm mad.

The Telstra game has changed alot now and there are plenty more people that can now do what I did then. At the time you could count on your hand the number of people in Australia that could do what I did so it was not unusual to get a call to drive half way across Australia and be there yesterday. Lucky I never needed to carry a log book in the troop carrier like the Trucks I would follow until they ran out of hours.

I love this stuff too and I also have a little insight to the science as fibre optic all work on varying wave lenghts of light. Some visible, most not.

Happy Days.