Dissing a company

[thedrover]

I support calling a spade a spade. In the last few months a thread has popped up to which a camper trailer seller has legally objected to people voicing their opinions on the quality or lack of.

I have had several comments deleted on other forums which detailed an unsatisfactory encounter with a tiger of the 4wd world. Hoping to avoid specific details.

In terms a dumb 4wder can understand, (not legal advice, but well sounded advice from "well meaning 4wd friends')

Under what conditions can one describe a product and the fault(s), shortfalls of a product. All without fear of being sued or causing forum mods' spidey senses to tingle?

[Homestar]

Good question. The rules here specifically preclude naming and shaming, but I think it gets a bit grey when general comments are made about certain products that can be mistaken for such but may not have been deliberately intended.

When these comments occur, there is usually some discussion amongst the mods and a decision made from there. Your comment about your encounter with that brand you have not really tried to hide may well be one that gets discussed...

Deliberate name and shame posts and threads are deleted as soon as they are noticed and the perp warned or worse... With the recent events about this there is no tolerance for this sort of behaviour.

[Boofla]

I don't see the harm in someone giving a accurate telling on an experience with a company or a product as long as stick to the facts and don't go along the lines of company "x" sells **** or company "y" has poor build quality etc if that makes sense.

[Vern]

Everyone seems to bag out britpart pretty quickly boofla in the terms you just mentioned.
Its hard to call I say

[Chops]

It is certainly going to make things a bit difficult to a certain degree. The last thing any of us would want to see is the site shut down due to some kind of law suit happening.
Its a shame that those who are offended by others opinions prefer to turn to the law in order to shut them up, instead of maybe seeking some kind of reconciliation with the supposed offender. Surely one would think that "a fix" with the then forth coming acylation's it would bring, would be more beneficial to all concerned.
This seems to be just the way of the world now. Its getting harder and harder to speak your mind these days, no matter where or what environment your in.
And of course, its generally the minority who spoil it for the majority.
Its all a shame, but we must do what we need to do in order to survive.

[pop058]

I don't see the harm in someone giving a accurate telling on an experience with a company or a product as long as stick to the facts and don't go along the lines of company "x" sells **** or company "y" has poor build quality etc if that makes sense.

It is not your arse in the sling mate, so as much as we (me included) would like to publicise some of our "personal expieriences" with companies/suppliers, you can't on this forum.

[incisor]

I don't see the harm in someone giving a accurate telling on an experience with a company or a product as long as stick to the facts and don't go along the lines of company "x" sells **** or company "y" has poor build quality etc if that makes sense.

if you allow it to some degree you have to invest significant time moderating it and the return on invested time and effort isn't attractive to me, sorry.

when it's all said and done, it is me that is the one that gets the letters, gets to waste time handling them, gets to pay the phone bills for the hours spent on the phone, on and on etc etc etc

not to mention the impact on the time and enjoyment levels of the mod team...

to be frank, and i know it is a bit selfish and maybe a bit rude but it is starting to get up my nose a bit, that i am having to constantly spend time defending my terms and conditions of access with people that don't even help keep the place running so that i can spend time looking after that sort of activity if needed.

i believe we have the balance somewhere near where it needs to be and with that in mind the rules here wont be changing in this regard, in fact it will be more tightly controlled that it was before so that ones like the one that just caused issues will be sorted before i get letters ..

sorry if that offends....

[Mick_Marsh]

So you want a place to name and shame. There are a few places I'd try first.

This is one of them
Product Review Australia - your reviews on products and services on the Australian marketplace. (http://www.productreview.com.au/)

I'm sure they're better set up to deal with the legalities.

[incisor]

Under what conditions can one describe a product and the fault(s), shortfalls of a product. All without fear of being sued or causing forum mods' spidey senses to tingle?

a decent barrister will be able to guide you in the right direction i am sure...

might set you back a bit tho...

[CharlesTeton]

I've run a forum so know what you are going through. I'm not sure what the law is in Australia but surely its down to the tone of the post? If its all about slagging off a company or product ie its crap etc, then fair to remove it but if its like a review with good and not so good points then surely its OK, otherwise all online or offline, paper, reviews would be illegal or threatened with suing. What about all those tradesmen review sites? Not knocking your decision just trying to understand the implications... We need a lawyer!

[incisor]

I've run a forum so know what you are going through. I'm not sure what the law is in Australia but surely its down to the tone of the post? If its all about slagging off a company or product ie its crap etc, then fair ti remove it but if its like a review with good and not so good points then surely its OK, otherwise all online or offline, paper, reviews would be illegal or threatened with suing. What about all those tradesmen review sites? Not knocking your decision just trying to understand the implications... We need a lawyer!

thank fully i have the legal advice, and i am sure you could thread the needle and allow it to some degree, but you would have to invest significant time moderating it because one slip and your screwed...

[CharlesTeton]

Pity, as its one of the major benefits of the web, finding out who and what is good and hopefully the companies would make things better rather than get in a hump. :)

[thedrover]

To allay fears, I don't have a bone to pick. No whine in mind, no trouble planned for mods on any forum. It was just the thread about the camper trailer. It popped into my 'subscribed threads' as updated.

I'm not asking mods to 'explain themselves', and there is no back story from any forum.

Given the threat of legal action is fairly foreign (mods must be fairly active in keeping these threads tame I have the legal sense) the question beggs to be asked.

How would a product review thread differ from a forum like this in expressing (and in the purest sense) honest opinions of a product test?

[Mick_Marsh]

How would a product review thread differ from a forum like this in expressing (and in the purest sense) honest opinions of a product test?
They would probably have lawyers on the payroll.

[London Boy]

What I'd suggest is one of the review sites or, better yet, Facebook. I can't see some lowlife cheapo NSW outfit suing them and getting away with it.

Honest opinion should be welcomed, and it's a pity that the threat of legal action is being used to bully this forum and stop people expressing in good faith their views. I can see why you would want to avoid a suit, it is inconvenient and expensive (though you could argue abuse of process and see where it gets you).

I do know where I will not be buying any kind of equipment, let alone a trailer. Whatever the state of their kit, I don't want to deal with a company that acts in that way. Could I trust their warranty?

[incisor]

Honest opinion should be welcomed,

positive feed back has always been sort and welcomed on the site.

from the get go i have never allowed deliberate negative comment that named a particular brand or make.

that said there are some very mild shades of grey in any discussion and exceptions make the rule.

if you want to vent by all means do, just don't directly name or explicitly hint at the brand or make.

offer to answer questions relating to brand or make via pm

there is more than one way to skin a cat.

if i could afford the insurance policy and had the legal nouse to play the game professionally i would alter the rules, but alas, i don't so wont.

i am not big on being bullied and fight back when and where i can, as i have in this particular instance, but i don't have the means or resources to wage an all out battle to shame the shonks... esp in the name of people that cant or wont even part with a few readies to support this place ;)

[Boofla]

How would it work if you had a private area of the forum, say you had to over 100 constructive posts, where you could write and have access to actual reviews?
Surely you could have it so it won't come up on google either.

Just a thought.

[Basil135]

How would it work if you had a private area of the forum, say you had to over 100 constructive posts, where you could write and have access to actual reviews?
Surely you could have it so it won't come up on google either.

Just a thought.

At the end of the day, what Inc is saying is, the time involved in moderating something like this, just is not worth it.

He has already had one letter, and rest assured, this site is now being watched by either the original companies lawyers, or some others.

There are sites that allow, and even encourage product reviews, both good & bad. This is not one of them.

By signing up, you agree to INC's terms & conditions. HIS site, his T's & C's.

[Disco Muppet]

At the end of the day, what Inc is saying is, the time involved in moderating something like this, just is not worth it.

He has already had one letter, and rest assured, this site is now being watched by either the original companies lawyers, or some others.

There are sites that allow, and even encourage product reviews, both good & bad. This is not one of them.

By signing up, you agree to INC's terms & conditions. HIS site, his T's & C's.

Exactly, we had the soapbox and the cantina which didn't appear in searches, and look how they turned out.

[Hoges]

Whirlpool, product reviews etc are good places to rightfully vent spleen:twisted:
Heard an interesting interview on ABC Radio in Bris today where a bloke was talking about "...the politics of indignation". There's lot of it around. More than one way to skin a cat without causing Inc to age prematurely :angel::wasntme::D

I agree let's keep it simple people, vent somewhere else if it's a name and shame. There are other ways of pointing out an "..interesting article"...remember...the high court (I think it was the High Court) has ruled that you can't be sued for faithfully reporting something which was published in Hansard... :angel:

[303gunner]

Heard an interesting interview on the Radio today where a bloke was talking about "... politics...".
And of course, there is the recent example from politics of a candidate from one party who had a promising outlook following the election. It turns out that he was also a Moderator of a car enthusiasts forum, and due to certain topics and jokes that appeared on that forum, he took the brunt of the outrage and his political aspirations are finished. Cost: One lucrative career.

Keeping it clean and above board would have saved him.

[thedrover]

How would it work if you had a private area of the forum, say you had to over 100 constructive posts, where you could write and have access to actual reviews?
Surely you could have it so it won't come up on google either.

Just a thought.

I have seen this happen (but not work) . LARGE company. Private computer network. Company says no to public naming and shaming, but it inadvertently happened.

Even though the business in question would never see the posts originally, people (against company policies etc) talk.

[BilboBoggles]

+ve comments are much more relevant than -ve comments. Every company or product has some bad implementations. Some of that is subjective to the individual consumer. So I very rarely find a vindictive rant useful, but often seeing a +ve feedback will nail the decision.

[Yorkie]

to be frank, and i know it is a bit selfish and maybe a bit rude but it is starting to get up my nose a bit, that i am having to constantly spend time defending my terms and conditions of access with people that don't even help keep the place running so that i can spend time looking after that sort of activity if needed.



i am not big on being bullied and fight back when and where i can, as i have in this particular instance, but i don't have the means or resources to wage an all out battle to shame the shonks... esp in the name of people that cant or wont even part with a few readies to support this place ;)

geez, is there an echo in here? ;)

get onboard folks, $27.50 is not a lot for a year considering what we get out of this place. :)

[Vern]

That's it yorkie, surely every user on here gets $27.50 worth of information. :( Think of the money people save with that valid information, surely is more than $27.50!
Did I mention its only $27.50 to subscribe to the excellent site:)

[Homestar]

That's it yorkie, surely every user on here gets $27.50 worth of information. :( Think of the money people save with that valid information, surely is more than $27.50!
Did I mention its only $27.50 to subscribe to the excellent site:)

Just thought I'd quote this so everyone reads it again...:) Just in case you missed the point, it's only $27.50 to subscibe and help keep this awsome site awesome...:D

[Vern]

Just thought I'd quote this so everyone reads it again...:) Just in case you missed the point, it's only $27.50 to subscibe and help keep this awsome site awesome...:D

Yes just $27.50 to subscribe, Barry bargain I say:)

[Judo]

I'm not saying any of these comments are allowed on the forum, but there is a big difference in making a negative statement and stating your opinion and personal experience of a negative kind. It's the words you use that matter.

Saying: I purchased product X and it broke straight away, so I purchased another one and it broke too. I won't be buying another one.

Is totally different to saying: Product X is **** and you should never buy one.

I struggle to see how the first could be seen as deformation, but the second almost certainly could. Sentences with "in my opinion" or "in my personal experience" and leaving out emotions are normally left alone by all. As soon as you start telling others what not to buy and add emotion, all bets are off.

Telling someone what they shouldn't buy, is very different to saying what you won't buy.

[Eevo]

I support calling a spade a spade.

as Judo said, your not allow to call it a spade, you allowed to say that in your opinion its a spade.

[d@rk51d3]

That's it yorkie, surely every user on here gets $27.50 worth of information. :( Think of the money people save with that valid information, surely is more than $27.50!
Did I mention its only $27.50 to subscribe to the excellent site:)

Yep, $27.50 saved us from losing $5000 in a nondescript camper trailer. ;)

[Disco Muppet]

Yes just $27.50 to subscribe, Barry bargain I say:)

Did you say $27.50? :D

[Eevo]

Did you say $27.50? :D

extra for muppets

[Disco Muppet]

extra for muppets

That's right, because Muppets pay for silver subscription ;)

[Vern]

Did you say $27.50? :D

Yes, only $27.50:)

[redrovertdi]

Got my subscription renewal email this morning, already paid the $27.50 by paypal. money well spent:D

[ATH]

I've got a wheel cover saying 'NO WAY" "Never ever again" with a well known WA caravan retailers name on it. I know several people who've taken snaps of it and sent it to the company in question.:p
I also know they've lost at least 3 good sales because of it.:D But I don't tell others what to buy or slag them off on it but I've put the facts onto a couple of sites about them and the van maker.
And I've got all the bailiff/minor claims court documentation plus emails to both companies to back my attitude towards them.
The Cook and I will continue to tell all who ask about it exactly why we say it and just let either of them try to take action against us.
But I don't put it on here because I appreciate that they don't deserve to be drawn into my arguments. (although thinking back I may have been modded about it sometime ago so I have changed what I put out)
Hopefully the site will stay as it is even if some wish to vent their outrage at the lousy attitude or bad build of some goods out there.
AlanH.

[London Boy]

as Judo said, your not allow to call it a spade, you allowed to say that in your opinion its a spade.
What you can do is name the product and say either that you have no comment to make (old shorthand for 'I thought he/she/it was sh*t' without actually saying so) or that you personally would not consider buying one again.